Random Fitness Questions

ThunbergsAreGo · 04-07-2021 9:51pm

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

There's a few spreadsheets floating about the internet I think and if you go to Jon Andersen's Instagram bio you can get the 90 page detailing the Deep Water philosophy and actual programmes for free

https://amp.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/9rxz7x/program_reviewjon_andersens_deep_water_beginner/

That review is what first got me interested in it but I must admit I haven't got to actually run it yet. I get very little time in which to run something of my choice at that intensity. Currently doing Building the Monolith so Deep Water probably has to wait until next summer for me.

How in the world do you manage 100 dips!!

the baby bull elephant · 04-07-2021 10:13pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

How in the world do you manage 100 dips!!

In fairness I treat the high number of dips and chins as more of a target than a set number. I've been getting in the 70s on dips unassisted and could probably get over 100 if I was willing to take 10 minutes longer. My chins are dreadful though and I do most of them banded or assisted.

Black Sheep · 04-07-2021 11:37pm

The Reddit write up is good. Convinces me Deep Water is a bonkers program that probably only suits a minority of really experienced lifters. I’ve got no doubt it builds an amazing work capacity more than anything else. But so many pitfalls...

Two hours for the squat day, I’m not surprised! I’d be divorced.

GiftofGab · 04-07-2021 11:51pm

Back training after the best part of over a year out of the gym.
Aiming for a 6 day PPL 40-45 min workout then a 5km outdoor run 5 days a week.
Gaining my strength back at a surprisingly fast pace.

ThunbergsAreGo · 05-07-2021 8:41am

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

In fairness I treat the high number of dips and chins as more of a target than a set number. I've been getting in the 70s on dips unassisted and could probably get over 100 if I was willing to take 10 minutes longer. My chins are dreadful though and I do most of them banded or assisted.

Dips are the one thing that ruins my shoulders

Mellor · 05-07-2021 9:24am

Black Sheep wrote: »

The Reddit write up is good. Convinces me Deep Water is a bonkers program that probably only suits a minority of really experienced lifters. I’ve got no doubt it builds an amazing work capacity more than anything else. But so many pitfalls...

Two hours for the squat day, I’m not surprised! I’d be divorced.

TBH there's very little that you can do, that is reasonably difficult and takes 2 hours that is not going to get results.

Whenever I want volume, I typically run GVT. Which is not very often.
I'm more like to be happy with a volume intro wave to whatever long program.

the baby bull elephant · 05-07-2021 9:55am

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Dips are the one thing that ruins my shoulders

It's interesting because I'm currently rehabbing one shoulder and they're both structurally not great but I can't remember the last time I had pain from doing dips. People seem to really vary in how they react to them.

https://youtu.be/qN6z_Tdhykc

Might be useful.

Cill94 · 05-07-2021 12:51pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Dips are the one thing that ruins my shoulders

I used to be the same. Did a few weeks of progressive banded dips and now I’m pain free on them. Go as deep down as you can and don’t reduce band thickness until you can do about 15 with zero pain.

I’ve had numerous people do this with same success.

I’m convinced it’s just that bodyweight is too much for some people to start with, especially on an exercise that demands a good bit of shoulder flexibility.

Black Sheep · 06-07-2021 6:16pm

The way I was initially shown to do dips emphasised range of motion. One of the guiding principles in our training at that time was about moving the load through as great a range of motion as possible. Why? Because **** you, that's why... It was CrossFit in the 00s.

No one actually looked at what happened with shoulder rotation after a certain point, or even thought what the tissues that we were actually trying to work with dips were in the first place.

To be honest I think most people would be better served being quite strict about not bending past 90 degrees, and to really take their time on the descent. Ask yourself, if you sag really deep, what are you feeling, and do your ligaments and tendons feel A1 or not? And why do it anyway, if the goal is to use them as an upper body mass builder, and going that deep takes the strain off the main tissues you're trying to work?

Cill94 · 06-07-2021 9:38pm

Black Sheep wrote: »

The way I was initially shown to do dips emphasised range of motion. One of the guiding principles in our training at that time was about moving the load through as great a range of motion as possible. Why? Because **** you, that's why... It was CrossFit in the 00s.

No one actually looked at what happened with shoulder rotation after a certain point, or even thought what the tissues that we were actually trying to work with dips were in the first place.

To be honest I think most people would be better served being quite strict about not bending past 90 degrees, and to really take their time on the descent. Ask yourself, if you sag really deep, what are you feeling, and do your ligaments and tendons feel A1 or not? And why do it anyway, if the goal is to use them as an upper body mass builder, and going that deep takes the strain off the main tissues you're trying to work?

I’d contend that bigger range of motion = more muscle gained. The problem is people not appropriately progressing the range of motion.

Black Sheep · 06-07-2021 10:19pm

Cill94 wrote: »

I’d contend that bigger range of motion = more muscle gained. The problem is people not appropriately progressing the range of motion.

For hypertrophy, I don’t think so, once the shoulder rolls forward to compensate for going too deep, and the joint is compromised, you are getting very little by way of trade off for that. Work hard in the active range of motion, no need to exceed it.

Worth saying though that could be talking at cross purposes because deep can still mean deep within active range of motion ... it’s not a half dip. You can say go deep but insist on no sagging.

Cill94 · 07-07-2021 1:25am

Black Sheep wrote: »

For hypertrophy, I don’t think so, once the shoulder rolls forward to compensate for going too deep, and the joint is compromised, you are getting very little by way of trade off for that. Work hard in the active range of motion, no need to exceed it.

Worth saying though that could be talking at cross purposes because deep can still mean deep within active range of motion ... it’s not a half dip. You can say go deep but insist on no sagging.

Most of the hypertrophy research indicates bigger ROM = better for hypertrophy though..

I'm not sure what you mean by the joint being 'compromised', or why the shoulder rolling forward is a big deal? If my shoulders roll forward in the bottom of a dip, but that's a position they're used to, why would that be an issue for safety or muscle gain?

I've heard this concept of 'active range of motion' before. It doesn't make any sense to me. If you can push out of a position, your muscles are active and being worked more than if you went less deep.

Black Sheep · 15-07-2021 9:12am

Well, welcome back everyone... My first post on the new forum. I'm sure the migration was necessary but think I preferred the old forum for some reason. The 'drop down' menus at the top were very handy and they're gone for me now. Finding things seems to involve several more clicks now.

I'm not sure that after a week away anyone gives a flying **** about continuing the discussion about dips, but I will make a few more comments anyway since I think it's a better topic than some that come along.

I'm not hugely into studies/literature but yes I'd tend to agree that the overall takeaway is that full ROM is advantageous for hypertrophy in general terms. But when you get down into the weeds and look at exercise selection, specific muscles and how they interact with joints, and what we know is the main driver of hypertrophy (mechanical tension), then I'm inclined to believe those who say that for optimal hypertrophy there is a value in looking at mechanical differences in people, in exercises, in muscle groups / joints.

The problem with 'active ROM' versus 'full ROM' is that the former is a term that always needs to be defined. I would define it as the full range of motion where you are effectively and safely loading a muscle with mechanical tension, and where the primary muscle you are trying to train is primarily what is under tension.

On dips maximal tension is around the 90 degree point with full elbow and shoulder flexion. After that a significant amount of the tension is transferred onto ligaments and tendons, and if I bring myself to a true bottom position in terms of ROM I feel like I start to depend on the passive strength of my shoulder structure to a degree that seems pointless. Based on previous experience, yes I can go that deep into flexion and come out of it, but from a hypertrophy point of view there is little if any reward.

If we take away the language of 'active ROM' I guess I would say that people should use a full ROM but keep in mind that if hypertrophy is the goal then keep the muscles they are trying to train as the prime mover.

Several years ago I never would have thought in terms of trying to make what bodybuilders call a "mind muscle" connection, or to plan training in terms of muscle groups, but for hypertrophy I think it has its place. Identify what you are trying to hypertrophy, maximally mechanically load it and move onto the next thing. The caveat is always that this is if hypertrophy is the focus.

I would say that drilling down into this means that programming needs to include enough isolation work to succeed for hypertrophy. The value of compound movements is undeniable in terms of the systemic effect they have on the whole body, and for strength building purposes, but for hypertrophy you have to start isolating.

Cill94 · 15-07-2021 12:52pm

It really doesn't matter that much. If people want to just go to 90 degrees then have at it. Work toward a 0.5x bodyweight dip and you'll have plenty of hypertrophy in the major push muscles. My preference based on research and experience is full ROM, but it's not worth getting into discussion of minutia over. Only thing I took exception to is the idea that going deep is dangerous, because that idea directly hindered my own ability to do dips pain free.

Also new site design is shite.

[Deleted User] · 15-07-2021 3:35pm

Got rings a few days ago and my God do they give a burn. Ring dips and push-ups left my chest and arms sorer than anything with a barbell.

Black Sheep · 15-07-2021 3:35pm

I'm hoping the new site is a temporary thing, that it's not the finished product. Because if it is, it's worse than what we had before from a user point of view, even if it's more stable.

Brian? · 15-07-2021 3:58pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117615028#Comment_117615028

I'm extremely bamboozled by the whole thing

[Deleted User] · 17-07-2021 2:21pm

Does it matter much how long you leave between movements? Like much difference between say 5 mins and 20? Time between sets normal.

Cill94 · 18-07-2021 12:47pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117624047#Comment_117624047

Not really. Prioritise the most important exercises by putting them at the start.

Bey0nd · 19-07-2021 7:46am

In terms of how many sets and reps you do, and how much weight you put on each set, is there an optimum way to improve the weight you can lift?

My numbers are fairly paltry, but hey, I'm trying to improve - but here is what I've been doing:

10 x 20kg

10 x 40kg

8 x 50 kg

6 x 60kg

4 x 65kg

2 x 67.5kg

And I can barely finish the last one on 67.5kg, so I'm definitely going to my "max" - but I'm struggling to improve what my max rep is. Am I doing too many warm-up reps or too many reps building up to my max (and leaving myself tired by the time I get to my max)? Is there a better way I can structure this?

Brian? · 19-07-2021 8:43am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630662#Comment_117630662

I would suggest your volume is too high.

Have a look a the starting strength program.

the baby bull elephant · 19-07-2021 8:48am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630662#Comment_117630662

Great news, there is no optimum/optimal progression or loading scheme. Loads of stuff works and has been proven to work. Eventually you might find what works best for you but that takes a bit of experience and is always subject to change. I would try a professionally made programme. There's some good free ones for beginners like 5/3/1 for Beginners and GZCLP.

Black Sheep · 19-07-2021 2:47pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630662#Comment_117630662

As a single workout, the set up there is suboptimal, but to be honest any one workout is not so important, it's what the broader programming looks like.

If you are working up to a max double there, then yes, the warm-up sets there are too extensive. But ask yourself what the point is of working up to a max double - where do you go next time? What is actually driving adaptation and going to increase your max?

(In some programmes there might be a separate day with quite heavy volume with the same lift, that's an approach... Or perhaps there is a lot of assistance and accessories designed to bring up the lift... etc)

If you are not really sure then I would agree with the lads that it may be worth considering following something established and well laid out. A lot of popular programs are mentioned in the thread below.

https://boards.ie/discussion/2058104438/beginner-strength-programmes

My person preference would be for people to run a 'linear progress' program like Starting Strength or Greyskull LP, and then next step would be something like 5/3/1 or Westside For Skinny Bastards.

silverharp · 19-07-2021 8:12pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630662#Comment_117630662

if that was me, I'd be thinking 25-30 reps max ( I tend to think in 10's and 5's for reps) and space out the weight more , something like 10X47.5 , 2 sets of 5 x 57.5 and then 1 set of 5 x 67.5 , you would have more gas in the tank going into the final set so might get the extra reps, then each session or week add an incremental weight to one of the sets so that each week has progress

Cill94 · 20-07-2021 2:05pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117630662#Comment_117630662

As Black Sheep said, just get on to a beginner strength programme. Less guesswork, more getting strong.

el Fenomeno · 26-07-2021 5:17am

Question about 5/3/1 as I saw it posted here and I wanted to give it a try.

It centres around the 4 main lifts, and says to work out 3-4 times per week.

Does that mean the "Week 1" instruction for example is only done once for each lift? ie. If I start today with Bench Press, I do Week 1 and the next time I do Bench Press I'll be on to Week 2?

the baby bull elephant · 26-07-2021 8:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661464#Comment_117661464

So there's a few different templates of 5/3/1 and frequency of lifts can be changed for them. But yes most people structure it so that they have one bench day, one squat day etc a week.

As an example the below is one of the most popular templates:

https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101077382-boring-but-big

Brid Hegarty · 30-07-2021 7:40pm

I've a question; how come I never get DOMS when I do push ups? Has anyone ever found this? Just this one exercise I can seem to do as much as I want.

Cill94 · 30-07-2021 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117684491#Comment_117684491

If you did enough reps or put enough weight on your back, you'd get sore. You're probably doing similar amount of work each week so it's not really damaging the muscle and causing inflammation.

[Deleted User] · 05-08-2021 9:38am

Are calf raises holding the barbell in front at the hips ok? Figure it helps grip strength as well.

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