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2020 officially saw a record number of $1 billion weather and climate disasters.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    I like the new layout but it is near impossible to navigate and use. But it is this thread I can't take anymore. The unbearable stupidity of some on here is truly stomach churning. Climate 'experts' whom, if you asked them the name of the most basic form of cloud, would not be able to tell you without looking it up themselves.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Don’t let the door hit you on the way out

    thinking you know more than everyone else is something most people grow out of when they reach maturity



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Stamping 'climate change' on an event when you didn't even know of or consider the weather pattern / temp profile over the affected region to me is the real mark of immaturity.

    New Moon



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,336 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, it is reported that such levels of rainfall has never happened before - never. So what is there to reference such weather if it is the first time such events have happened?

    The ice caps are melting - warmest temperatures at both poles. The tundra area is shrinking and the permafrost line is moving north. Western USA is on fire, Arizona - you know in the desert - is suffering floods. Everywhere is suffering highest temperatures, and drought regions are expanding in Africa..

    Hmm, I'd say all that could be described as a change in the global climate.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    In case anyone missed it, there was a leak of a part of the IPCC AR6 draft report

    It was not reassuring

    Nothing that they say is new, it's all the kinds of stuff that people have been reporting in here for years (while being dismissed as 'alarmists'

    The key points were that Climate change is happening faster than predicted, and is having greater than predicted impacts, and that the previous IPCC reports did not play close enough attention to the idea of Tipping points, because uncertainty was high

    All of this adds up to the conclusion that climate change is incredibly dangerous, that requires immediate and extreme interventions. Without this, there is a very high risk of setting off irreversible cascading tipping points that will put the human species at risk of extinction within a couple of generations

    “Life on Earth can recover from a drastic climate shift by evolving into new species and creating new ecosystems … humans cannot.”

    This leaked draft report seems to be takng the threat of a 'Hothouse earth' very seriously and the fact is, by the time we've set off these cascades, it will be too late to reverse them, so the requirement is to act to reduce heating as much as possible

    Anyone who stands in the way of action, is gambling with the capacity of our planet to sustain human life.

    We're currently seeing climate change impacts based on the 1.1c warming we have already seen. We are on track to reach warming of 3c if we continue to allow governments to delay action.3c could be more than enough to trigger these tipping points that make 7+c warming inevitable

    For context, the global average temperature was about 14c and is now about 15c. Changing the planet so global average temperture is 17c, or even 22c would be cataclysmic. These are not small changes. They are absolutely enormous changes that we are causing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Reading Akrasia comments is like reading the apocalypse of John. The level of reasoning behind blaming climate change for weather events is akin to fundamentalist religious leaders blaming immorality for natural disasters. Recently a low pressure moved up from the Mediterranean sea and stalled between 2 high pressures dumping a lot of water in one region destroying lives and property, this has a 1% chance of happening in any one year (i.e. the statistical one hundred year flood). Locally and on a far smaller scale similar flooding happened in West Limerick back in 2008 when a front stalled in the area.

    Akrasia has claimed that this will become more likely in future but has failed to quantify the % change in risk or explain the mechanism of why this will change beyond the "one hundred year flood", therefore the claim cannot be tested and is invalid. These charlatans have been claiming the polar ice would be melted long ago, the polar bears would suffer, the coral reefs would be gone and that coastal flooding would have major cities underwater, but have never produced evidence to support their claims and have to resort to computer modelling and artists impressions of their vision of hell due to lack of evidence to support their claims. They can't quantify how often to expect Vb cyclones to affect the regions from now on and how this will deviate from the statistical mean.

    A look for data would reveal there have been significant floods in the region in 1804 and 1910, by historical standards this is not an unexpected event though the experience of most people is outside living memory. What has changed in the meantime has been land use, drainage and population growth and since this landscape is dramatically shaped by human activity, local authorities with responsibility for infrastructure engineering need to review their plans to account for the change in the topography, population and land use and how to cope with 100 year flood events and what level of risk is acceptable versus the cost of mitigation.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 591 ✭✭✭the butcher


    So...how much extra rain did climate change cause?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How much warmer than average was it when it rained and caused the flooding?

    and what is the normal range?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia



    You call this a 100 year event. Here's what the german weather service said

    To describe the events of recent days as a 100-year flood would be an understatement, said Uwe Kirsche, a spokesman for the German Weather Service. “With these small rivers, they have never experienced anything like that,” Mr. Kirsche said. “Nobody could prepare, because no one expected something like this.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/07/16/world/europe-flooding-germany

    You ask about the magnitude of the increase in extreme weather events.

    The study below indicates that the kind of event that happened last week in Germany, where a low pressure system got caught in a ridging event will be 14 times more likely in Europe by the end of the century

    You're living on a different planet if you think the loss of coral reefs and polar ice is not happening as predicted.

    instead of getting you 'predictions' from youtube videos and blogs, you should look at the science

    Here are the predictions of when the first ice free summers will happen from the main models (under business as usual scenarios)

    -----------------------------

    'The predicted year of disappearance of September sea ice under high-emissions scenarios is 2086 for HadCM3 (CMIP3/5), 2048 for HadGEM2-ES (CMIP5), and 2035 for HadGEM3 (CMIP6) (Fig. 4). More broadly, multi-model CMIP3-6 mean predictions (and ranges) for a summer sea ice-free Arctic are: CMIP3 2062 (2040-2086), CMIP5 2048 (2020-2081), and CMIP6 2046 (2029-2066) (Fig. 4 and Suppl.Table 3). We note that the latest year of sea ice disappearance for CMIP6 models is 2066 and that 50% of the models predict sea ice-free conditions between ∼ 2030-2040. http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/91701/1/18887_2_merged_1594159790.pdf

    -----------------------------

    A recent study says the first ice free summer may be as soon as 2035 based on improved models HadGEM3 that plugged in more accurate historical data from the last interglacial period



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I don't know, I'll wait until the attribution study is done and link to that



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,276 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Nobody is saying that there was never flooding before now. The link to climate change is to do with the projected changes in intensity, duration and frequency

    Below is a useful interactive map that shows events and whether there is a climate fingerprint, and links to the study for each event

    https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-how-climate-change-affects-extreme-weather-around-the-world



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    More attribution science, don't limit yourself to that have a look back in time in history where we get fragments of the flooding,drought and famines.

    Weather events have been derived from records compiled by Matthew Paris, a monk in St Albans, near London. It has floods, droughts & wind. Extreme heat and extreme cold. This is just a two decade snippet to illustrate that lots of weather happened and sufficient have survived for us to form a good idea of the climate of the time.

    1231 March to October hardly any rain anywhere in England-great drought


    1233 Wet summer from 23 March with great inundations of rain through the whole summer destroying warrens and washed away the ponds and mills throughout almost all England. Water formed into lakes in middle of the crops where the fishes of the rivers were seen to great astonishment and mills were standing in various places they had never before been seen.


    1233-1234 Severe frost from Christmas 1233 to Feb 2 1234 destroying roots of trees to four foot down then rest of year very unseasonable


    1234 Third unseasonable year. Wet weather in autumn choked the seed and loosened it.


    1236 Great floods in Jan, Feb and part of March that no one had seen the like before. Bridges submerged, fords impassable, mills and ponds overwhelmed and sown land meadows and marshes covered. Thames flooded palace of Westminster so small boat could be navigated in the midst of the forecourt. And folk went to their bed chambers on horseback.

    Followed by dry summer with intolerable heat that all lasted four months. Deep pools and ponds were dried up and water mills useless.


    1237 Great rains in February, fords and roads impassable for 8 successive days, Turbulent year stormy and unsettled.


    1238 Great floods in many parts probably December.

    Cloudy and rainy in beginning until spring had passed then the drought and heat were beyond measure and custom in two or more of the summer months. Great deluge of rain in the autumn that straw and grain became rotten and an unnatural autumn which is held to be a cold and dry season gave rise to various fatal diseases.


    1239 Very wet weather continually from Jan to March, it has continued for four months without intermission.


    1240 Dry Jan to March, wet from April to December but fruitful and abundant but wet and rainy autumn greatly choked the abundant crops.


    1241 Drought from March 25 to Oct 28 drought and intolerable heat. Pastures withered, herds pined away from hunger and thirst

    December very cold and bitter weather the like of which no one had seen before, binding the rivers killing large numbers of birds


    1242 Dry and hot


    1243 floods


    1244 Dry autumn wholly without rain


    1245 Unseasonable summer


    1246 Rainy year


    1247 very unseasonable weather in late winter especially cold and rainy and windy


    1249 Very mild winter so that neither snow nor frost covered the face of the earth nor bound it in their customary weather, trees were seen to be sprouting in February. Winter was turned into summer but intense cold came at end of March and lasted until middle of May that made people shiver that casting off linen they were compelled to resume double clothing.


    1252 very hot and dry summer, very wet autumn heat of the sun so great that all the earth became dry no fruit grew on trees. At end of harvest there was great flooding breaking bridges mills and houses adjoin the rivers


    In Germany, the Ahr river floods every century in the same manner (1804, 1910), why then is this latest disaster attributed to catastrophic anthropogenic climate change?

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    Well point was to read it and make up your own mind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    Did you choose dates in the dark ages to make some valid point ?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Television news and documentaries frequently report normal weather as "extreme weather," implying it is abnormal and caused by human activity.

    This latest trend by activists to document normal fluctuations in weather is specifically to generate hyperbole and confuse the public at large and it is counter-productive "turning off the public with “constant alarm which cannot be sustained.”

    They had weather events in the dark ages as well, attendant with very serious consequences that led to death by famine, drowning, heat stroke and hypothermia, yet somehow people survived all that, the world did not end, our ancestors adapted to their living conditions. We have it real good in 21st century Ireland compared with some of the conditions our ancestors endured.

    The effects of flooding have nothing to do with climate and are man made including

    1. Populations in and adjacent to flood-prone areas, especially in coastal areas, continue to increase, putting more property and greater numbers of people at risk,
    2. Flood-moderating wetlands continue to be destroyed,
    3. Little has been done to control or contain increased run off from upstream development (e.g. run off caused by paving over land),
    4. Many undeveloped areas have not yet been mapped (mapping has been concentrated in already-developed areas), and people are moving into such areas without adequate information concerning risk,
    5. Many dams and levees are beginning to deteriorate with age, leaving property owners with a false sense of security about how well they are protected,
    6. Some policies (e.g., provision of subsidies for building roads and bridges) tend to encourage development in flood plains.

    At a minimum, when people blame climate change for damaging flood events, they direct attention away from the fact that decision makers already have the means at their disposal to significantly address the documented flood problems. Germans did actually learn lessons from the 2002 Elbe flooding event that they applied successfully in 2013. It was rather surprising to observe the loss of life in the latest instance, but, I guess no one had experience in living memory of previous floods in the area.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    The point that has been made constantly is not that these storms, floods, droughts, heatwaves etc never happened before but that due to climate change the once in a lifetime/century/millennial events will happen far more often. You can sing the denial tune all you like and play the Charlton Heston card regarding fossil fuels but at the end of the day your wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    You do realize that looking back at historical weather events and comparing them with. Modern weather events is pretty much exactly what attribution scientists do, except they do it using validated methodology rather than just lists of things that happened in the past



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    Well, again bets are hedged.

    No 'extreme' weather is attributed to climate change, more frequent weather events on both spectrums are climate change induced.

    My understanding was that AGW caused amplification of weather events and not more frequency.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    It was cooler than average... much cooler in fact.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Zoom in on Dublin from that link you provided again. Why did Friederike Otto leave out the record cold in February/March 2018? Can you explain the methodology that cherry picks data points like that? That looks like confirmation bias to me.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    there was no attribution study for that event

    They're not cherrypicking the data, they're amalgamating the results of the studies that have been published



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    This study, from almost 10 years ago did not produce reliable predictions for the future, they explicitly declared it in the paper, it was based on a very small sample size and more study was required.Do you have any reference to a follow up study that used data less than 11 years old?

    -------------

    Especially at long return periods, the individual paired GCM and RCM simulations show systematic differences. This could indicate that the RCMs have an influence on the signal of their driving GCMs, but the small number of simulations explored here permits neither a firm conclusion on the origin, nor robustness of this difference. Further research with larger ensembles and systematic exploration of potential causes is needed. 

    -----------



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,225 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia




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