Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

The Daily Express can be best described as akin to citing Wikipedia as fact on a third-level post-graduate thesis, i.e. just ... don't. Across the lamentably wide selection of red/rag top tabloids available in the UK, it is quite possibly the worst offender by a few country miles.

Edit: Strazdas beat me to it.

At this stage it’s just becoming sad with brexit and how their citizens and politicians are trying to use mental gymnastics to blame everyone else bar themselves for the mess they are in. I saw a documentary on a family of fishermen in I think the south West of England who catch shrimp and since brexit happened(the UK leaving the EU officially) there’s been changes to how things operate which include extra paperwork. They complain about the extra paperwork and also think the EU(the EU and it’s constituent countries didn’t force the UK to leave btw) needs to more flexible and also if given the chance they’d still vote for brexit. I mean how do you square that logic ?

Also, the bitching and moaning over the Northern Ireland protocol is miss guided anger. I’m open to correction on this but isn’t the protocol in place a UK government construct ? That was their solution to the island of Ireland situation not the EUs position. It comes across as buyers remorse over doing a bad deal and trying to blame others.

I sense though the whole thing may fall apart on them in the next five years or so. They're relying on the bigoted OAPs and the working class racists to keep them in power, but it seems flimsy enough and could fall away in time. Even the culture wars may not be enough.

Ireland will face an assault from the Tories this week on the protocol. I just listened to Frost giving evidence to an EU scrutiny Committee in the HOC.

The moment of truth is nearing. Despite careful language they fully intend to renege on the protocol.

So...what is the response of the EU going to be? We have seen no action so far to defend our interests. We have seen meek legal proceedings that mean absolutely nothing to the Tories.

The only thing they will understand is economic sanctions.

The EU is failing this country on this issue and needs to step up to the mark fast because we are being walked over on this now and a land border is becoming inevitable because it's what the Tories want.

Is that the extension that kept you tied to EU rules for the moment? The same rules the Brexiters used as a reason to leave the EU as they were so terrible? By all means, get your "wins" from now until 2100 by extending to keep yourself tied to rules you have no say in. It is exactly what Brexit is all about, to be tied to the bureaucrats from Brussels. Take your win Rob, you won this round. Congratulations!

or to put it more simply, red tape=leaving a free market 🤣

I think Frost is mainly a fanatic. He actually seems to believe his own Brexit bluster rather than it being an elaborate smoke and mirrors job. He doesn't seem particularly intelligent though and is probably lacking in emotional intelligence, hence coming across as weird to many people.

Whats your definition of 'excessive'

The EU introduced rules and bureaucracy, but in general, the effect of this was to unify many markets into one single internal market. This did not increase bureaucracy, it reduced it, not only for EU members, but for trade partners with the EU

The only reason why there is much more 'red tape' for the UK now, is because they're going from the position of being members of the low bureaucracy single market, to being a third country

The UK voted to increase red tape, and are now complaining that they got what they voted for

(well actually, if the Brexiteers were honest at the time and said voting for Brexit would mean leaving the CU and SM, they would have lost that referendum, but that's a different argument)

Therein lies the crux of the issue. The Breixteers, including Johnson and Frost, by their continuous complaining about 'red tape', difficulties with NI and all the other things they never stop moaning about, are unwittingly admitting that Brexit is a disaster.

That things are worse than they were before. That Brexit has left UK with more issues, more red tape, less trade, less freedoms, less less less.

That they can still not point to anything to make all these problems worth it. Sure FoM is gone so Granny can't live in Spain anymore, but X is far better. Except there is no X. There are vague notions of something in the future, vague statements about global Britain, but nothing that anyone can get excited about.

For a cause that was delivered on sound bites and catchy slogans, suddenly they are talking about ideologies, about 50 year time frames, about nebulos concepts of freedom. Brexit was supposed to be the thing the delivered something for everyone, but now the discussions are into the boring concepts of trade agreements with Australia, about standards and regulations.

There is a very simple reason why Brexiteers stayed away from such discussions in the ref, steering clear of actual in depth discussions and simply calling for Freedom and £350 pw for the NHS. It was because people really don't care. It doesn't impact their daily lives (or at least they cannot see the direct impact).

A major failing of the remain side in the campaign was failing to highlight the benefits of EU membership. But that was, in part, down to people not wanting to bother to listen. It was boring, hard to understand. Now the Brexiteers, and Johnson and Frost in particular, are faced with the exact same problem.

How to explain to people why Brexit is a good idea after all when there is nothing to show for it? How to keep people on your side when all your have is discussions about red tape and loss of freedom.

And it is only going to get worse as the effects keep becoming clearer

In Brexit incompetence news

Turns out, to nobody's surprise, that the Trade Deal signed between the Uk and Ukraine last year was full of mistakes and meant that the UK was legally obligated to retain alignment with EU rules that it didn't intend to sign up for

While in Brexit Cruelty news

A woman who has been living in the UK almost her entire life, having moved to Britain at the age of 11 months old, has been sacked by her employers because she does not have the correct 'right to work' evidence

She says she had registered as an EU citizen but her case got lost in the backlog and despite multiple calls she could not get it processed in time

"The 45-year-old woman, who arrived in Britain as an 11-month-old baby and who has never left the country, said she has tried more than 100 times to get through to the Home Office-run helpline in the past three weeks, but has never been able to speak to an adviser.

She has applied for EU settled status, but her application is stuck somewhere in the backlog of over 500,000 cases the Home Office has yet to process. She is the main breadwinner, with two children to support, and said her dismissal has left her struggling to buy food.

Charities helping EU nationals say the case is not unique. “We’ve seen this time and again when people with pending EUSS applications were asked to take unpaid leave, or were turned down from employment,” Dora-Olivia Vicol, CEO of the Work Rights Centre, said."

The Home Office seems to be full of the nastiest of people.

And in Pritti Patel, they seem to have their ideal minister in charge.

The SM for goods and services is one set of common (minimum) standards, rules, and regulations.  

They are (in relation to the outside world) controlled by the EU commission in Brussels. There are not 27 sets of rules and even where there are differences they are not subject to national negotiations.

It's "follow every EU rule" or do not export to the SM. To a large degree it's also "import EU standard products" or do not import at all.  

FoM for permanent stays and work in EU member states for 3. country citizens is (mostly) a national competency, with different personal registration rules and e.g. taxation rules. There can or will be areas where EU rules will cover. E.g. performing artist, where the EU did offer the UK common and easy rules, but were refused by Frost & Co. Lorry drivers will be offered special (non) visa rules too, if the UK reciprocates

Lars :)

Trouble brewing : FT reports that Frost is about to up the ante and announce provocative UK plans to change the Protocol - "UK sets collision course with EU under plans to redraw Brexit deal" is their headline (behind a paywall).

We will Unleash THE HOUNDS OF HELL!!!!

or else the EU will just follow the mechanisms within the NI protocol and the withdrawal agreement and take the UK to court

The EU can afford to be patient as many others have pointed out. The UK want the EU to over react, but in reality, every time the UK renege on an international treaty, they're only harming their own international reputation

The EU will follow the treaties to the letter of the agreements. Either we'll win in arbitration, or Johnson will be booted out, the Tories will lose an election and the EU will have some adults at the table who will agree to abide by the agreements or pursue a closer relationship with the EU.

A brief extract from the FT article :

"The UK will on Wednesday put itself on a collision course with Brussels by unveiling a new set of demands that would radically overhaul post-Brexit trading arrangements between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In a move that officials called a “wholesale change of approach”, Lord David Frost, Cabinet Office minister, will outline a strategy that seeks to eliminate most of the checks on the Irish Sea trade border that came into force in January. And in a warning that Britain could suspend the Northern Ireland protocol in its Brexit deal with the EU if the bloc does not give way, Frost will claim the UK is already within its rights to activate the Article 16 override clause in the agreement."

No. When it comes to imports, those 27 countries all share one system, so there aren't 27 different systems to negotiate; just one. Once you have complied with whatever it is you need to do to export from the UK to (say) France, the extra compliance needed to export to any other EU country is zero.