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United Ireland Poll - please vote

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭Whatcar212


    no, in fact theres a good podcast called rich guy, poor guy that explains how we could still use mmt even in the eurozone



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    That's a very dishonest approach, JH. Not very conducive to an open and constructive discussion if you're going to start into that.

    I didn't make any claims on how much it would cost, you did. I said that IF (and highlighted that it was a big if) we take all your statements as correct and NI essentially continues on in a vacuum making no progress, that your numbers would make sense....but they're not my numbers and I'd prefer you didnt insinuate that I've said more than I have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 66,323 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Utter lies. I can spot the negativity of partitionism a mile off and have zero interest trying to convert you.

    Some as obsessed with your own ecomomic wealth probably wouldnt get non financial benefits anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79


    Sorry , i was trying to say you agreed with the logic of my figure rather than the figures themselves.

    I did also say to the other poster that you had caveats with it too.

    Apologies again, wasn't my intention. This is something I actually want to talk about and it's refreshing to have someone on the other side willing to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79


    I stand by what I said. You've been asked enough times and as per gave one of your usual stock answers this time as well. "Zero interest in converting you".

    Here's your chance to set the record straight. What are they?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 66,323 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Google them or search the threads, I've better things to be at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 66,323 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady





  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I'm always happy to discuss it, though I'd question how much value I can provide; I'm not an economist so I'm not going to be carrying out any financial projections of my own, nor am I in government so I won't be in a position to influence what financial policies are followed should we proceed.

    My position has always been an admittedly selfish one; the majority of my family live in NI and I feel they would be better off in a United Ireland both economically and socially. As a tax payer who already pays a substantially amount of tax for a huge number of things that don't impact me in the slightest, of course I'm less likely to be scared off by the big bad, 'more tax' question when it is something that will directly benefit my extended family. Can I quantify that specifically as a benefit to you? Probably no more than you could quantify the benefit to me of building a new road, youth centre or public park in your locale that I'll never use, though I wouldn't object to my taxes being used for any of those.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79


    I stand by what I said so. You've been given ample opportunity but the reply is always as above.

    Post edited by jh79 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79


    Even from the perspective of a person living in NI, unity doesn't guarentee improvement economically at a personal level.

    If we mistakenly decide that just covering the subvention is enough then nobody in NI is any better off. They just get a euro conversion. Any money generated just goes back into the pot to hopefully bring tax back to the original level.

    Actually improving the lives of those in NI is the expensive part eg 3bn a year just for social welfare.

    Big risks too for the people in NI. Their economy being propped up by high PS employment and the subvention means it doesn't change much. In a New Ireland , poor planning and outside forces such as global recession and COVID type events and they could see conditions worsen.

    Social side of things, I haven't thought too much about but my instinct is that benefits here would depend on how much of the bigotry is systemic. Unification isn't going to make Sammy Wilson any less of a bigot.

    Social issues are linked to the economy too. If the subvention is only covered nothing changes in that regard either as levels of poverty remain the same.



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  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Would yous not think the relative performance of frer state vs NI since independance particualrly the last 40 odd years,would give a reasonable indicator that econmically their lives would improve?



    The british are never gonna make a go of it,unionists are never gonna invest west of the bann.....its inevitable lives will improve immeasurably,the whole idea of a utd ireland is to improve lives of millions....after 100 years,its safe to say partition is a failure and the 6 counties would be undoubtfully better off ruled from dublin



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I'll take my opinions on life living in NI from my lived experience and that of the god knows how many other people I know who have actually lived there (to be clear, many of whom don't support Unification). Of course Unification doesn't guarantee economic improvement on the personal level. Can you tell me a single government initiative that GUARANTEES economic improvement for every single individual there?! That's a ridiculously high bar to set and not one that anyone even slightly reasonable should take seriously.

    If we decided that Unification was just a case of leaving everything the same and Dublin foots the bill instead of London, then yes....obviously no one is any better off. Can you point to anyone who is proposing this? The entire conversation we've been having is around investment in NI to bring it up to a higher standard.

    I'd like to see how you reckon that as part of Ireland (and now subject to the protection offered by EU membership again) that a post Unification NI would be MORE subject to the impact of outside forces such as global recessions or pandemics than it is while tied to an increasingly isolationist UK, whos government have demonstrated time and time again that NI is only an afterthought?

    Can an NI that represents about 30% of the population of a New Ireland have it's voice heard more readily there than as 3% of the population of a political system set up to practically eliminate minority parties having political voices with FPTP voting in the UK?


    It is very apparent that you haven't thought much of the social side of things as it has been clear that your primary concern is purely economic (such is your right of course, your vote is worth just as much as mine). Unification won't make the likes of Sammy decide he isn't a bigot overnight, but the systemic changes can be responsible for making sure there are a damn sight fewer Sammy types for the next generation to deal with. In the same way that the GFA didn't magically get rid of distrust between communities overnight, nor will Unification eliminate all the ills of the world, once more you set the bar ridiculously high if that's what you expect.


    As for your last statement, firstly to try and diminish the social issues experienced in NI as purely tied to economic factors is ridiculously naive, and ignores several generations of history that have led to those social issues.....but even then, as already said who is talking about a New Ireland that's just the same except we're footing the bill instead of London?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    A functioning economy helps if you want to sort out climate change. Or you could go the North Korea route where you can't afford fossil fuel.

    You won't get high speed rail from Cork to Belfast while NI relies on the UK for handouts. Out of 53 train stations only 3 are west of the Bann. Of those three one the one in Derry is in an area with a sizeable nationalist majority and even then there's a lot of unionists there too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79


    With regards who is suggesting that we only cover the subvention. I think it's fair enough to accuse SF of this. Pearse especially is focusing on it and using the lower predictions of it as a basis to say we can afford it.

    Technically he's right with a 5% tax increase but let's hope economic partition is not what they really want or would settle for.

    On me setting a high bar for unification the point i thought i made was that the metrics eg GDP are guaranteed to improve but these won't necessarily filter down to the individual.

    On the social side, it's not my primary concern and I hope given my posts that isn't any sort of revelation but that doesn't mean I'll accept that a simple changing of flags will improve things.

    I wasn't trying to diminish the social aspects at all by linking them to economics but a lot are. Prosperity for example has a well known link to health outcomes. If the economy and wealth disparity are not addressed then certain social issues will remain. Must look for research around racism and economic prosperity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I'd like to see something that backs up your assertion that the Shinners idea of Unification is just us taking over the North and paying the subvention, JH. I'm no fan of theirs, but I reckon that's probably a gross simplification you've arrived to, at best you've taken some statements out of context, at worst you've just made it up.


    I'm fully aware that there are links between economics and social outcomes, my point was that in the case of NI, it is so far down the cause/effect list to be practically irrelevant. When you're researching the link between racism and economic prosperity, I'd suggest you look into the relative economies North and South at the point of partition.


    Again, who is suggesting that a simple change of flag suddenly fixes everything? It is pretty easy to argue against Unification when all you're arguing against is a strawman of your own creation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 66,323 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Not the first time a point of view or a statement was invented and then argued against. It is a habit of several posters here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79




  • Registered Users Posts: 66,323 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Where have I lied about what someone said or invented a point of view?


    Link please or withdraw that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79


    Any sign if those benefits or a quote of your posts on it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 66,323 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That is NOT an invention of a point of view or a lie about what somebody said.

    I have said, I have no interest in giving a partitionist mindset the fodder for a few more posts. The benefits of a UI are all out there on google...if you wish to diss them, knock yourself out...there is no onus on me to assist you.


    Now, are you going to withdraw yet another lie about me?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79



    No issue with him busting the myths on the subvention but "busting the myths" as a justification that we can afford NI means considering economic partition as a valid option.



  • Registered Users Posts: 66,323 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady



    Using your logic we cannot afford to run the country at the moment. And rarely have been able to 'afford' it.

    If I can 'afford' the repayments on a top of the range car, I can have that car because I can 'afford it'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79


    2 lies is it now? Getting desperate with your attempts to derail the thread.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Have yous no self-awareness😂....isnt your stick to invent strawmans and soapbox completly unrelated to what people post in an attempt to drag conversation towards what yous want?🥰

    Then when this runs out of road,demand others justify yous POV



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79


    If I want to post about the cost of unification I will.



  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Yous are more than welcome to....but i remember yous drooling all over thread saying i was againest free elections in cuba and not so much as a hint of an apology for that lie,


    Hence why noone believes yous figures as regards reunification as yous likely lieing about this too.....your happy enough to slander all around yous baseless,but when exposed as a lier just gloss over it,and ignore....not expecting a reply like,you goys rarely accept constructive critism anyway



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79


    "My figures"??

    You think I wrote Doyle's, Fitzgerald's and Hubner's papers!



  • Registered Users Posts: 66,323 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You lie at the drop of a hat about what people have said, you have attributed stuff about me several times and now other posters are complaining about you doing it. Here is BACK UP for that. Something you are too cowardly to provide for your lies.


    You said I DO THE SAME thing and you have been asked to back up where I lied or invented an opinion for a poster and argued against it.

    Are you going to do that or not?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭jh79


    Stand by everything I have said. If you have a problem with a post of mine report it or stick me on ignore.

    Untill I'm told otherwise I'll keep posting on the massive costs that a UI involves.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 66,323 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So you 'stand by your lies and misrepresenting' of others? Because before you start on another round of misrepresentation, that is what three posters now, have accused you off. Which has NOTHING to do with your posting on what you believe are massive costs.



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