Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

1484951535456

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The RCC isnt delaying anyone. They have dont nothing either way. They were never against the Commission. They provided the records they had.


    https://www.thejournal.ie/commission-finds-burial-remains-of-up-to-42-infants-at-former-mother-and-baby-home-5322538-Jan2021/

    More than 900 children died in Bessborough or in hospital after being transferred from Bessborough. Despite very extensive inquiries and searches, the Commission was able to establish the burial place of only 64 children.
    In its final report published today, the Commission said “it remains perplexed and concerned at the inability of any member of the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary to identify the burial place of the children who died in Bessborough. “The concern of the congregation about marking the graves of the children who died in Castlepollard does not seem to have applied to the children who died in Bessborough.”.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    An excellent point made in the comments section of The Journal. “We all acknowledge that it is a blot in our history. We all acknowledge that it had a terrrible affect of the women who had no choice but to go there. We all pay! I know this has ye academic minds licking ye’re lips but what you folks should be concentrating on is finding non monatary solutions to help these women come to terms with what happened to them, so they can heal properly, not just cover it with a money plaster!”https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-mother-and-baby-homes-commission-alternative-summary-5493888-Jul2021/


    Help the survivors heal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Children's minister urged to accept alternative review of mother and baby homes report (irishexaminer.com)

    Children's Minister Roderic O'Gorman has been urged to accept an alternative review of the mother and baby homes commission report to "give some balance to the story told".

    Rewriting the executive summary of the final commission report, a group of 25 experts has found that mother and baby home residents were subjected to involuntary detention, forced labour, and illegal adoption.

    The authors say they "profoundly disagree" with the commission report’s findings and approach and have put forward alternative conclusions.

    Speaking at the launch, University of Birmingham researcher Máiréad Enright, who was among the 25 experts who worked on the alternative report, found that the commission could have come to very different conclusions using the same information.

    Ms Enright said the commission's conclusions often found that there was very little or no evidence of failings such as forced adoption when the report itself contains strong details to the contrary.

    "When you dig into their analysis more deeply, it becomes clear that, in a lot of cases, the framing of how they've interpreted the facts is more important than the volume of such," said Ms Enright.

    The authors are now encouraging feedback before they publish a final alternative to the commission's report.

    Great work being done by the following people.

    Máiréad Enright, Reader in Law, University of Birmingham

    Prof Aoife O’Donoghue, Law School, Durham University

    Aoife Price, National University of Ireland, Galway

    Clíona de Bhailís, National University of Ireland, Galway 

    Maria Ní Fhlatharta, National University of Ireland, Galway 

    Sahar Ahmed, Trinity College Dublin

    Dr Aisling McMahon, Associate Professor, Maynooth University

    Dr Aoife Daly, Lecturer in Law, University College Cork

    Dr Ciara Fitzpatrick, Lecturer in Law, Ulster University

    Dr Deirdre McGowan, Senior Lecturer, Technological University Dublin

    Dr FergusRyan, Associate Professor in Law, Maynooth University

    Dr Fiona Donson, Senior Lecturer in Law, University College Cork

    Dr Helen Kehoe, Solicitor

    Dr James Gallen, Associate Professor of Law, Dublin City University

    Dr Kieran Walsh, Senior Lecturer in Law, Portsmouth University

    Dr Louise Kennefick, Associate Professor, Maynooth University

    Dr Lydia Bracken, Assistant Dean, University of Limerick

    Dr Lynsey Black, Assistant Professor of Law, Maynooth University

    Dr Maebh Harding, Lecturer in Law, University College Dublin

    Dr Michelle Farrell, Reader in Law, Liverpool University

    Dr Phil Mullen, Assistant Professor in Sociology, Trinity College Dublin

    Dr Samantha Morgan-Williams, Lecturer in Law, University College Cork

    Dr Vicky Conway, Associate Professor of Law, Dublin City University

    Prof Eilionóir Flynn, Centre for Disability Law and Policy, NUI Galway

    Prof Shane Darcy, National University of Ireland, Galway

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,774 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    A start would be holding the church and other religious institutions to account, but you don't want that either, so what are you in favour of?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    "We all pay." No, you don't. If everyone's to blame, no one is to blame. I have a non-monetary solution: Remove any special treatment for the RCC from the Irish Constitution and government. Remove government support from any RCC run activities.


    Funny how the Canadians are coming to grips with a similar circumstance quite quickly. Not here, though. Lets spend money on poorly done reports (a feature of the Irish government throughout its history).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’m in favour of helping those affected come to terms with their past.

    I think that the Government’s and society in general of the past made mistakes. Events were of their time.

    Academics calling for financial recompense should take a broader view and find ways to help other than by just giving money. Counselling, acceptance and forgiveness would help people move on. Once money is spent, it’s gone and the problems still remain.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Healing and redress starts with the truth. The truth. Every academic and survivor agrees with this basic ask.

    You have no idea what the experts and academics have been fighting for - they have a much broader and informed view than you ever will have despite what you read in the Journal comments.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,774 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    So you would have no problem with the religious institutions picking up the tab for this counseling



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    This post sounds very condescending IMO. Of course events were of their time but that comment doesnt help anyone affected by those events, it's just waffle and means nothing. Parents and children who were affected know what happened and they cant change the past but that doesn't mean there should be no questioning or looking for the truth about people who carried out illelgal activities, or about those who were in positions of power and responsibility that allowed illegal, unethical and abusive events to happen. Acceptance doesnt mean just shut up and go away. As for counselling and forgivness helping people to move on, well words just fail me when I read that rubbish. Its attitudes like that which are responsible for the long delay in treating adopted people and their families as equal citizens - the 'we know what's best for you' mind-set is still alive and well and held by so many, it's really extraordinary.

    If government and religious authorities really wanted to help they would not discriminate against adopted people & their families any longer by preventing them from accessing their own personal data. AFAIK, it says in Art40.1 of the constitution that - All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law. I'm open to correction but I understand that to mean that the State cannot unreasonably unjustly or arbitrarily discriminate between citizens, but as far as I can see, it continues to do that where adopted people are concerned in terms of GDPR law by refusing to give personal data.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The beauty of Boards is that different opinions can be aired. It may come across as condescending to you. That’s fine. There are hundreds if not thousands who had positive experiences in mother and baby homes. Many hundreds, if not thousands of babies were willingly given up for adoption and lived full and happy lives. That’s the other side of the story that some don’t want to hear or acknowledge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,774 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Don't want to hear what? That some people were lucky enough to avoid being abused in these places! That doesn't really take away from the issue of those that did. As an aside, how many of those babies have you spoken to, to determine those full and happy lives?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Probably as many of the abused that you’ve spoken to!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,774 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Why the deflection? Was it a difficult question?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean



    You don't accept the survivors statements as common experience because they differ from a roundly criticised report, but you are eager to dispute these witness testimonies based on your hunch, or willingness to believe, that 'hundreds if not thousands' benefited. It's obvious that regardless of actual evidence and witness statements that you are intent on covering and deflecting for the government and the religious orders. As you say you are able to have your own opinion, but you are working to push a roundly debunked narrative which goes beyond mere opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Well done yet again NUIG!

    Secondary school pupils to learn about Magdalene laundries and mother and baby home abuses (irishexaminer.com)

    Secondary school pupils to learn about Magdalene laundries and mother and baby home abuses

    Secondary school pupils will be taught about the human rights violations suffered in industrial schools, Magdalene laundries, and mother and baby institutions under a new national pilot programme.

    NUI Galway's Irish Centre for Human Rights has published secondary school teaching materials on Ireland’s institutional abuses, which have been created with survivors and school teachers, pupils, activists and artists.

    Mother and baby home survivor Mary Harney said: “We must teach children the history of this dark chapter in Ireland and keep that memory alive so that it never happens again.”

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,478 ✭✭✭Acosta


    Maybe a few of those students will go home to their parents and ask them why in the hell were they indoctrinated into the catholic church.



    This is horrific. Absolutely no surprise some Fianna Fail bigwigs are knee deep in this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Article about test cases in connection with M&BH Commission of Investigation:




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    The government should be pushing for an investigation into the sham report they commissioned.

    Once again the state forces individuals to chase justice.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    No doubt there are many adopted people who enjoy happy lives despite the fact that they continue to suffer discrimination by the state who refuse to release information about their origins, personal heritage & ancestry, family medical information, siblings etc.,the list goes on.

    Some people continue to hold the view that prejudicial treatment of one category of our citizens is ok. Many do not, & believe all our citizens should be treated equally.

    The fact that children were 'willingly given up' as you say, does not reflect the fact that those children had no choice in being separated from their family of origin yet they are the ones who have lost the most by that permanent split.

    Those of us not directly affected by this whole sorry mess can't possibly understand the psychological damage or mental distress adoptees & their loved ones have lived with. It's time to stop the excuses and treat our fellow citizens properly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    A good read on the history of M&B homes in Ireland

    https://bit.ly/3fqClq6



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Emotional and sexual abuse in mother and baby homes among 64 new complaints to gardaí (irishexaminer.com)

    Gardaí have received 64 complaints involving people alleging abuse or mistreatment in mother and baby homes.

    The most common allegations were emotional abuse, sexual abuse, involvement in medical treatments, and illegal adoptions.

    The complaints were made after gardaí launched an appeal on April 29 to anyone wishing to report a crime committed during their time at a mother and baby home.

    It said the types of crimes and incidents alleged were as follows:

    • Emotional abuse — 17;
    • Sexual abuse — 9;
    • Physical abuse/mistreatment — 6;
    • Legality of adoption/birth cert falsified — 9;
    • Medical treatments/vaccine trials — 10;
    • Baby deaths/burial — 4;
    • Other crimes (theft/State corruption) — 4 

    The question is whether the Gardai will act.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Nice gesture in the Tuam mother and Baby home

    Mother and Baby site covered with white crosses as campaign for excavation continues | Tuam Herald

    Mother and Baby site covered with white crosses as campaign for excavation continues

    Part of the former Mother and Baby Home site in Tuam was filled with hundreds of small white crosses on Saturday morning, each one bearing the name of one of the 796 infants who died at the home but for whom no burial records exist.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Tuam survivor ‘was abused at late TD’s home’, documentary alleges (irishexaminer.com)

    A documentary has revealed how a survivor of Tuam mother and baby home alleged severe physical and sexual abuse while living in the home of a founding member of Fianna Fáil.

    The documentary, Untold Secrets, focuses on the life of Anne Silke, who was subjected to abuse in the Tuam institution before being fostered in the home of the late Galway TD Mark Killilea Sr.

    The film, screened for the first time at the Galway Film Fleadh, sheds light on Ms Silke’s previously unaired experiences and allegations.


    Mark Killilea was a Fianna Fail TD in Galway. In fact, the Golfgate dinner in Clifden last year was a tribute to the late former TD/MEP and his family.

    It's easy to see why FF were happy to whitewash the Mother and Baby Home report. They have a dark legacy they don't want exposed.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,931 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The Golfgate tribute was to his son Mark Junior.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Anne Silke: Fostered to a Fianna Fáil TD, beaten and abused (irishexaminer.com)

    The ‘Golfgate’ event last year in Galway was a dinner in honour of the late TD and MEP. 

    Who attended the golf dinner and what has happened to them since? (irishtimes.com)

    The society’s 50th anniversary event paid tribute to the late Mark Killilea, a founding member of the group and former Fianna Fáil MEP.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is old news and it’s only right that it’s brought to the public’s attention once again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    It won't be old news until it's addressed by the state, honestly.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don’t think that the state should be blamed for the actions of one family! Though, what can be done at this stage when the accused is dead?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    The state is complicit in everything a state body or actor does, especially if they spend decades covering for it and treating victims like nothing.

    This is about addressing the survivors and families with respect and giving closure, While insuring it's not repeated. None of these animals acted in a vacuum.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,641 ✭✭✭political analyst


    The alleged actions of one family. The alleged victim is also dead and so whether or not her accusations are true will never be known.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Indeed. Makes you wonder about the veracity of other testimonies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    (49) Untold Secrets Trailer - YouTube

    Untold Secrets is a documentary covering a series of interviews with survivors, families of survivors, and people involved in the mother and baby home scandal.

    Trailer to the Untold Secrets documentary above. It was shown at the Galway Film Fleadh and got excellent feedback.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    We know the state allowed babies be sold often without the mothers knowledge. We know the state allowed single mothers be committed to institutions for most of their lives. We know the Garda and local priest were often complicit. We know the state and religious gulags allowed babies be used in Smith-Glaxo-Kline trials without the mothers permission/consent.

    Tutting over a whitewashed cover up is not enough. The state for decades behaved like animals IMO.

    The state needs to honestly own it before victims and families can achieve peace. We need outside/foreign people to carry out a full report under the attention of the UN.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And, what part did the mothers families play? Are they totally innocent? After all, it was often the parents who brought the pregnant mothers to these institutions and abandoned them there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    If you want to go after families I'm not sure where you'd start. Any families who engaged in the process were often cajoled by the state and church in many cases. Public shaming, religious pressure, escorted by a Garda. You can't send your daughter to a life of servitude and having her baby sold or experimented on without the religious orders, state and a complete disregard for human life. I'd call it criminal were it not supported by the state.

    Let's concentrate on the public representatives with a duty to protect and govern for the well being of the state, engaging in selling babies and allowing clinical trials without consent.

    All you are doing here is deflecting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,280 ✭✭✭techdiver


    My god this comment is so dumb it makes me dumber even reading it.

    Think about what you are saying. If I bring my pregnant daughter down to the local garda station or mother and baby home because I'm a backwards idiot it absolves the state and church institutions of responsibility? Am I getting this right? I should have been told to **** off immediately and arrested for attempting such a course. That is not what happened though.

    The level of immaturity in your statement is mind boggling!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,774 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Totally innocent of what? The church is responsible for their own atrocities. Your constant attempts to deflect from this doesn't change this fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    That's all that poster ever does. Blame everyone except the precious RCC.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’m afraid that I don’t agree with you. Yes, I’m sure that the church influenced some families decisions, but the families often took/sent the pregnant mother to these institutions off their own bat, abandoning them to their fate. I fail to see why the families shouldn’t carry a large portion of the blame for the unmarried mothers suffering along with the church, state and the institutions.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    You don't agree with what? Are you seriously deflecting from the state and religious orders to what some families might have done in individual cases? Would you not repeat your earlier comment "what can be done at this stage when the accused is dead?"? You have to hold the state and religious orders responsible before you can seriously go down the 'whatabout the families?' route. Otherwise your case falls apart.

    If I wanted to sell a baby or let a pharmaceutical company carry out tests on a baby I'd be rightly locked up, but the state and church were allowing and assisting in such things. At worst, complete worst, families are guilty of playing along with religious orders and the state. If they didn't they'd be shamed or locked up so come off it. They should bear some responsibility, of course, but what would you suggest? They tell the Garda, Priest at their door to go **** themselves? That's not realistic now is it? I know it happened TBF.

    You are happy to deflect from the state and religious orders to families, at best gullible.

    The state and religious orders were monsters. I don't know why we haven't made these groups illegal based on their records. The state needs to address the experimenting on babies and not sweep it under the rug. Animals.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    “The state and religious orders were monsters” In my opinion so are the fathers and families. All 4 deserve investigation and censure. I’m not in any way excusing the Church and State. Just wanting blame to be apportioned equally to everyone who added to these girls suffering.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,671 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    The religious orders are responsible for the behavior of their member's cruelty can never be explained away or minimised.

    Families often thought they were doing the right thing for their daughter.

    The absence of fathers from the story is peculiar no one got pregnant by themselves.

    The refusal to look at the context in which all this took place is missing a whole part of the story through, the role poverty played in the decision many families made, which in turn flowed from a society that made a god of having a bit of land a god of 'minding a good job' or the likes of being a primary school teacher being the equivalent to winning the lotto.

    Things like who went to the dispensary doctor or could pay the doctor maked families out. The role poverty played in the issue is huge.

    The is a chick lit book called The Liberation of Brigid Dunne by Patricia Scanlan they very clearly explained the choice one of the characters makes set in the 1950s from a small farm, working in a shop in the village ending up as a spinster preventing her brother from getting married because no woman wants to share a kitchen she becomes a nun despite having no religious conviction as a way out there were thousands like that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    And, it was the RCC forcing unwanted children that first and foremost, led to poverty. The RCC flourishes by causing misery. They continually prove this time and again. Their defenders are either cultists, or personally profit from the RCC's activities, or both.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The Catholic Church wasn't the only Church running mother and baby homes. C of I were in the news recently too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    Fine. Why are you unwilling to allow criticism of the religious orders and state? They created and ran the mother and baby homes. You are not apportioning blame equally. Anytime the state and religious orders are criticised you try move to the families. You need be as critical of the state and religious orders as you are families and telling tales of those who allegedly thought the homes were great, which is all you post about, to be 'equally' critical.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I seem to be the only one apportioning blame to all involved. Religious (RC & C of I), State, fathers and families. All are to blame.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Granted; but they ran Fianna Fail and the Government at the same time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    No, you are reluctant to level blame upon the culprits, the religious orders and state. I have previously agreed, as you quoted, that yes, families who went along with it hold some blame, but and it's a very big but, it was the religious orders and state created and enabled the life sentences of servitude and selling and experimenting on babies and you might reference that but only to bring you to deflecting to individual families guilty of obeying the church and state.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    GSK have opened up their records about the vaccine trials in Mother and Baby homes.

    Vomiting and fever among side effects experienced by children who took part in GSK trials (thejournal.ie)

    VOMITING AND FEVER were among the side effects experienced by children who took part in trials carried out by Glaxo Laboratories (now known as GSK) in mother and baby homes and similar institutions in the 20th century.

    GSK has today published information about nine trials it carried out in Irish institutions between 1934 and 1973.

    Another milk trial on Ostermilk 1 was carried out on around 80 babies from Bessborough and Pelletstown (40 at each site) in 1969.

    The document notes that “no information” on side effects is available. It adds: “The draft protocol is the only information GSK retains regarding this trial. No evidence could be found that this trial was conducted.”

    GSK has also established “an enhanced information service” for survivors of mother and baby institutions who believe they participated in the trials.

    In a statement, the pharmaceutical giant said it “recognises that many survivors are understandably seeking to access their personal information”.

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



Advertisement