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Human trafficking in Ireland

  • 30-04-2008 11:42AM
    #1
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Right, Dublinddude. I see your post and raise you a thread!

    No seriously, I would be interested to hear points of view on human trafficking in Ireland. I have just read claims that it is a myth in Ireland, all stats come from Ruhama (sp?) and that there has been no convictions for human trafficking/forced prostiution in Ireland.

    My argument would be that Ireland does not have sufficient laws to result in a conviction. The existing relevant legislation (Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking Act) 2000 and the Child Trafficking and Pornography Act 1998) are both totally useless. We have yet to sign the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking. We have signed but not ratified the UN Trafficking Protocol.

    The Irish government has been criticised by Amnesty International and the Childrens' Ombudsman for its weak laws in this area.

    Is it any surprise that there have been no convictions and that most evidence comes anecdotally through newspaper stories?

    Are we fooling ourselves by believing that Ireland is somehow immune to human trafficking?


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    This is an area I've researched. I own the website sex.ie and as a result have a lot of contact with prostitutes, brothel owners and people who work within the sex industry.

    I am very familiar with Ruhama. They are an extremist religious organisation who fire out horse**** articles and statistics which newspapers likes the Independent print as fact.

    I've asked Ruhama for proof to back up their claims many times yet they cannot provide me with anything.

    You'll frequently see comments from immigration organisations talking about prostitution and human trafficking in Ireland. If you contact these immigration organisations you will see they are getting their "facts" from Ruhama.

    So this is the situation:

    A religious organisation with a supurb PR machine keeps releasing horse**** stories and statistics. Newspapers print these stories as facts. People then believe these stories.

    If you speak to the Gardai they will say there are no problems of human trafficking (with regards to prostitution in Ireland.) This is not because our laws are too weak so they can't convict people, it's because brothel owners are normal people like you and me, and they all make so much money they don't need to resort to kidnapping.

    Also, there are enough women who want to work in the sex industry. There is no need to force people to do anything against their will.

    I have asked many prostitutes if they have heard of any girls who are being forced to have sex against their will. These would be a mixture of "escorts" and street prostitutes. None have heard of any problems to do with human trafficking.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    Funnily enough, I reckon you're both on the same side but talking at cross-purposes.

    Taconnol is correct about the NEED for legislation to combat human trafficking, regardless of what level of it is taking palce in Ireland at the moment.

    Dublindude may be probably correct about the biased information being put out there by Ruhama. however his personal experience does not represent discourse with 100 % of the people working in prostitution in this country, erego it can't be taken as an accurate respresentation of the level of the trafficking in Ireland right now.
    dublindude wrote:
    it's because brothel owners are normal people like you and me, and they all make so much money they don't need to resort to kidnapping.

    This doesn't mean trafficking doesn't exist, and it's naieve to assume so. There's a market for prostitution in this country, and anyone selling a product will find a way to exploit a market. Granted this argument is really nothing more than my opinion, but let's be frank, your assertions about Ruhama are not any better.

    Unless you can present facts/figures to back up what you're saying then your argument amounts to your words vs. theirs, and no-one is winning that.

    Maybe you should consider publishing some of your own research into this. As it stands, from what you're saying, Ruhama is pushing an version of the situation which is wholly inaccurate, which is damaging to any victims of the sex industry that do exist.

    And we can all agree that's a bad thing.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Glad to see you found us AngryBadger.

    I think human trafficking is a case of 'see no evil, hear no evil' in Ireland. It's brushed under the carpet and no one talks about it.

    I mean, dublindude, do you honestly think there is no human trafficking in Ireland? Normally the places that are hot-spots for drug trafficking are also rife with human trafficking and Ireland is notorious for being an entry point for drugs in Europe (Although we can't hold a candle to Spain). I'd agree with AngryBadger & ask for some stats or references, rather than lack of, which is what you're providing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    taconnol wrote: »
    dublindude, do you honestly think there is no human trafficking in Ireland?

    There might be, but there is no evidence to suggest there is.

    My problem is that people always associate kidnapping with prostitution, yet their facts are based on nonsense from Ruhama or something they saw in a movie.

    Even worse, people's opinion on this subject is normally quite strong, even though there is no evidence to suggest there is any truth in their beliefs.

    The evidence I can offer is my inability to find any convictions for sex trafficking in Ireland, and this snippet from the head of the "anti-prostitution" Garda task force -
    Detective Superintendent John McKeown, who heads Operation Quest at Store St Station, says that there is no evidence that any of the girls are being forced into prostitution, none is underage and most pocket 50 per cent of their earnings.

    He says the oldest profession in the world is experiencing similar benefits of our booming economy as other industries and Dublin is now a highly sought after place to work. And he believes that politicians should considering legalising prostitution in a bid to monitor it properly and offer more protection to girls.

    We have carried out an in-depth investigation into organised prostitution over the past 18 months and we have found no evidence of exploitation or trafficking. There are no gangs involved and there is little violence.

    "The youngest girls appear to be 19 and most are in their 20s and early 30s. We have found no evidence of underage girls working - the pimps don't want to bring that kind of attention on themselves. The girls are working because they want to make money and Dublin is somewhere that they can earn a lot of money," Detective Superintendent McKeown said.

    "I was very surprised when we started this investigation to find that a lot of the old myths regarding prostitution have gone out the window. It is a service that is in demand and there is a lot of money about nowadays. To put it simply, there is room for everyone and plenty of work. The pimps know one another and work side by side. They don't want trouble and there are rarely disputes."

    Operation Quest have also investigated a number of lap dancing clubs but say they have found no breaches of the law within that industry and no exploitation.

    "Again the girls are here willingly and it is their choice to work in the business: they are earning a lot of money. They seem to be very happy doing what they are doing. They are not breaking any criminal laws. Obviously prostitution is morally wrong but there are no laws being broken because the girls aren't soliciting sex on the streets," said McKeown.

    He believes that Ireland should consider making prostitution legal and monitoring it properly.

    "We do not go after the girls - we wouldn't even consider doing that. It is the organisers that we are interested in," he said. "But the fact is that prostitution is here to stay and perhaps it is time that our legislators started to consider making it legal and getting a proper handle on it. Of course that would mean that taxes would have to be paid and maybe Dublin wouldn't be as lucrative a place to work."

    That's from an interview he did with the Irish Independent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    BTW, I just want to add that I would have no problem talking about Ireland's trafficking problem if there was one. I'm not trying to protect or defend the sex industry, or anything like that.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    taconnol wrote: »
    No seriously, I would be interested to hear points of view on human trafficking in Ireland. I have just read claims that it is a myth in Ireland, all stats come from Ruhama (sp?) and that there has been no convictions for human trafficking/forced prostiution in Ireland.

    My argument would be that Ireland does not have sufficient laws to result in a conviction. The existing relevant legislation (Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking Act) 2000 and the Child Trafficking and Pornography Act 1998) are both totally useless. We have yet to sign the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking. We have signed but not ratified the UN Trafficking Protocol.

    That's wrong. Just plain wrong.

    Your "argument" criticising the law is far too general - you don't say what's wrong with it you just say you don't like it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    See now that article from the Indo is something I can get my teeth into.

    For the pusposes of clarity, I'm against human trafficking, but I'm also against media scaremongering of the public at large :D

    ....although really the public should know better


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    That's wrong. Just plain wrong.

    Your "argument" criticising the law is far too general - you don't say what's wrong with it you just say you don't like it.

    Oops, my reference was from early in 2007, before this happened. Apologies. Although I forgot to specify in the beginning that I was mainly discussing human trafficking & prostitution.

    However, according to the Children's Ombudsman, half of all trafficked people are children and the majority end up in the sex industry. So if we accept that human trafficking exists in Ireland, statistically we would also have to accept that there is a considerably about of trafficking in the sex industry in Ireland.

    Dublindude - the credibility of the det. superintendant was immediately called into question when he referred to prostitution as "the oldest profession in the world". I really, really hate when people say this as it is ususally used as a justification for prostitution, evidence that it is 'natural' to humans and an excuse to do nothing about it. To use an analogy, human slaves have existed since time began - does that mean that it is 'natural' and that we should just accept it? I think not.

    Can you provide a link for that article so I can read the whole thing?

    Johnnyskeleton, these are the issues I have with the Irish approach to human trafficking (legislative & otherwise). Firstly, prevention. One of the main causes of human trafficking is extreme poverty, particularly of women. There is little we can do about that here as these are issues happening mainly in other countries. But a decent effort from the government on tackling poverty, not just talking about their beloved NAPS, would be a good start. Another issue in prevention is awareness. I have never seen an ad campaign, leaflet, etc advising me to be aware of human trafficking in Ireland. With the large influx of foreigners to Ireland over the last decade, surely this should have been a priority. That Estonian girl who is cleaning your house-what exactly is her situation? I don't think Irish people even conceive of these questions.

    Secondly, does Ireland have the services to protect the vulnerable, those who become the victims of human trafficking? As it is we spend over €20m/year on emergency accommodation for people such as battered women, asylum seekers, etc. We don't have the facilities so we are actually putting these people up in hotels (the mind boggles..). At the moment a lot of victims are placed in the care of the HSE, far from ideal.

    Non-Irish children in particular are vulnerable as these children have no defined immigration or protection statusi n this country. The HSE is responsible for making protection applications on behalf of unaccompanied children in care. However, being a victim of trafficking would not initself constitute a ground for being granted either refugee status or subsidiary protectionas defined in the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2007 and no specificprovision is made in that Bill for victims of trafficking. (Ref :Children's Ombudsman). Ireland has just received another criticism from the EU yesterday on its failure to protect children in its care. 328 children went missing from state care in the last 5 years. Don't tell me none of them ended up in the sex industry.

    Thirdly, the prosecution. The Nigerian in the story you linked only got 4 years for trafficking 12 people into this country, although it is clear that none were harmed. We all know he won't do his 4 years.

    Also, the act of knowingly using the services of a trafficked person is not an offense in Ireland, as is recommended by the Council of Europe convention I referenced earlier. We also have no provisions for the retention, damage or destruction of another persons's travel documents.

    That's just a few. I gotta go write an essay! (am in essay-writing mode so sorry for long post)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    taconnol wrote: »
    according to the Children's Ombudsman, half of all trafficked people are children and the majority end up in the sex industry.

    Can they provide any proof for this?

    Seriously, after researching this topic a few years back I realised every fact I came across turned out to be someone's personal opinion or based on lies from Ruhama.
    taconnol wrote:
    Dublindude - the credibility of the det. superintendant was immediately called into question when he referred to prostitution as "the oldest profession in the world". I really, really hate when people say this as it is ususally used as a justification for prostitution, evidence that it is 'natural' to humans and an excuse to do nothing about it. To use an analogy, human slaves have existed since time began - does that mean that it is 'natural' and that we should just accept it? I think not.

    OK I think we're now getting somewhere. You think prostitution is wrong so you want to tag it with kidnapping/trafficking too.

    Sex is not wrong. Paying for sex is not wrong. Agreeing to pay for sex is not wrong. Agreeing to accept money for sex is not wrong.

    It's ok that you don't like prostitution, but that is no reason to think it is unnatural or unacceptable and to want to enforce those views on others. Surely you know forcing personal moral views on others is bad.

    People who are anti-prostitution always talk about trafficking but if you do a bit of digging you'll see the two are totally unrelated.

    FYI you can read that article here: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hookers-rates-soar-as-they-get-lunchtime-rush-135517.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    taconnol wrote: »
    Dublindude - the credibility of the det. superintendant was immediately called into question when he referred to prostitution as "the oldest profession in the world". I really, really hate when people say this as it is ususally used as a justification for prostitution, evidence that it is 'natural' to humans and an excuse to do nothing about it. To use an analogy, human slaves have existed since time began - does that mean that it is 'natural' and that we should just accept it? I think not.

    Can you provide a link for that article so I can read the whole thing?

    Personally, and I stress this is just an opinion, but I'd lump questioning his credibility fover use of this term into the category of "knee-jerk reactions". Granted it's not very polically savvy, and I suppose it would be fair to argue this kind of flippancy could reflect a lazy attitude to the problem. However, I ...also think it could be argued that prostitution IS one of the oldest professions in history, and his use of the term may not reflect a cavalier attitude to it, but rather a pragmatic perspective on a "problem" that has existed as long as civilised humanity.

    Although I too would like to see the article in its entirety.
    taconnol wrote: »
    Johnnyskeleton, these are the issues I have with the Irish approach to human trafficking (legislative & otherwise). Firstly, prevention...Secondly, does Ireland have the services to protect the vulnerable, those who become the victims of human trafficking?...Non-Irish children in particular are vulnerable as these children have no defined immigration or protection statusi n this country. The HSE is responsible for making protection applications on behalf of unaccompanied children in care...Thirdly, the prosecution. The Nigerian in the story you linked only got 4 years for trafficking 12 people into this country, although it is clear that none were harmed. We all know he won't do his 4 years...Also, the act of knowingly using the services of a trafficked person is not an offense in Ireland, as is recommended by the Council of Europe convention I referenced earlier. We also have no provisions for the retention, damage or destruction of another persons's travel documents

    In principle I agree with everything you've said above. But, (as we jousted over in the feminism thread :p), what about the accountability of the individual? What about the fact that we have such a backward social culture in this country that there's a sickening miasma of sex-related social, and psychological problems hounding every level of society?

    I feel the governemtn should serve two primary purposes, firstly, and IMO primarily, an administrative role in facilitating the interaction and co-habitation of the millions of people that currently occupy the island o Ireland. Secondly, as law makers, but in this capacity I feel there's too much emphasis on the "nanny-state" mentality that permeates irish society these days. It's very difficult to legislate pre-emptively since you run the risk of infrignging on valid civil liberties, and yet people seem to expect the governemtn (such as it is) to do exactly this. What happened to people exercising a little common sense? Why is it so rare to hear people talking about their own acocuntability in the various problems within the country.

    We definitely need strong legislation to combat human trafficking whether it exists or not. But to talk about legislation as if it's the only way to combat the problem is taking awya the responsibility of the amn in the street, and making the problem even more difficult to address int eh longer term.

    For the record I don't necessarily think taconnol is doing/intending this, but the thrust of his post is toward legislation, without mentioning the complicating factor of the negative sexual culture we're indoctrinating our children with.....


    ...man I'm good :D


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Their reference for that statistic, surprise surprise, is not Ruhama. It's the US Department of State, Trafficking in Persons Report 2005, p. 6. The report is available at
    www.state.gov/g/tip


    To use a quote from the same report:

    "Women and Children Want to Escape Prostitution
    The vast majority of women in prostitution do not want to be there. Few seek it out or choose it, and most are desperate to leave it. A 2003 study in the scientific Journal of Trauma Practice found that 89 percent of women in prostitution want to escape prostitution. Children are also trapped in prostitution—despite the fact that a number of international covenants and protocols impose upon state parties an obligation to criminalize the commercial sexual exploitation of children.

    Prostitution Is Inherently Demeaning and Harmful
    Few activities are as brutal and damaging to people as prostitution. Field research in nine countries concluded that 60 to 75 percent of women in prostitution were raped, 70 to 95 percent were physically assaulted, and 68 percent met the criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder in the same range as treatment-seeking combat veterans and victims of state-organized torture."

    So no, while I don't have so much a problem with people paying for sex, I do have a problem with an industry that produces the above statistics. I don't want to tag it with trafficking/kidnapping: I am recognising it as such, according to the facts. What do you think about legalisation?

    What? Forcing our moral opinion on others is bad? Society does that all the time. Do you think it should be a free-for-all? No laws at all? According to your logic, if i kill someone and don't find it morally wrong, no one should have a problem with it as it is line with my own morality. Seriously, that argument just does not stand up. It's just a question of where you draw your morality line.

    I notice you made no comment on my veritable essay ( :) ) on Ireland's approach to human trafficking.

    Just on the article, don't you find it telling that the prostitutes referenced are mainly from Eastern Europe? Why aren't Irish women jumping on the bandwagon?? Because for the vast majority, their financial situation doesn't force them to consider it. Also, they say they don't go after the girls in the brothels but that certainly isn't the case with street prositution. Out of sight, out of mind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    taconnol wrote: »
    Their reference for that statistic, surprise surprise, is not Ruhama. It's the US Department of State, Trafficking in Persons Report 2005, p. 6. The report is available at
    www.state.gov/g/tip

    Ireland and the US are two totally different animals.

    My opinion is based on the Irish situation only.
    taconnol wrote: »
    Forcing our moral opinion on others is bad? Society does that all the time. Do you think it should be a free-for-all? No laws at all?

    That's not correct. The law protects (mostly) things from happening against your will, e.g. being killed, raped, robed, attacked.

    The law should not be based on morals, like Taleban law.
    taconnol wrote: »
    According to your logic, if i kill someone and don't find it morally wrong, no one should have a problem with it as it is line with my own morality. Seriously, that argument just does not stand up. It's just a question of where you draw your morality line.

    No, you're totally off the mark there. Killing someone involves making someone else do something against their will, i.e. die. Prostitution has agreement from everyone involved.
    taconnol wrote: »
    Just on the article, don't you find it telling that the prostitutes referenced are mainly from Eastern Europe? Why aren't Irish women jumping on the bandwagon?? Because for the vast majority, their financial situation doesn't force them to consider it.

    There are lots of Irish prostitutes. In fact, there are prostitutes from everywhere.

    Of course women only work as prostitutes because of the money. So what?
    taconnol wrote: »
    Also, they say they don't go after the girls in the brothels but that certainly isn't the case with street prositution. Out of sight, out of mind.

    The Gardai raid brothels all the time. If you knew anything about the sex industry you'd know that was the case.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    AngryBadger, just saw your post so I'll respond to yours & dublindude's when I get a chance later on


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    dublindude wrote: »
    The law should not be based on morals, like Taleban law.

    +1
    dublindude wrote: »
    No, you're totally off the mark there. Killing someone involves making someone else do something against their will, i.e. die. Prostitution has agreement from everyone involved.

    Have to disagree here. Granted in your experience prostitutes are in that trade of their own free will. There is a considerable body of well-documented cases where women in prostitutions are abused, and assaulted regularly. I'll grant you that there probably isn't an adequate amount of information specifically relating to Ireland, but you still can't make the kind of blanket statement you're positing here as fact when it's based solely on your own personal experience.
    taconnol wrote:
    AngryBadger, just saw your post so I'll respond to yours & dublindude's when I get a chance later on

    Sound as a pound! :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    Have to disagree here. Granted in your experience prostitutes are in that trade of their own free will. There is a considerable body of well-documented cases where women in prostitutions are abused, and assaulted regularly. I'll grant you that there probably isn't an adequate amount of information specifically relating to Ireland, but you still can't make the kind of blanket statement you're positing here as fact when it's based solely on your own personal experience.

    I agree it's a dangerous job.

    Should all dangerous jobs be banned?

    Why pick on prostitution?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    dublindude wrote: »
    I agree it's a dangerous job.

    Should all dangerous jobs be banned?

    Why pick on prostitution?

    I never said any dangerous jobs should be banned. What I have said on many occasions is that I acknowledge some people are willing to pay for sex, but I'm not one of them. So if you want to pay for sex, or if you want to choose the life of a prostitute then best of luck to you.

    The discussion here is focusing on human trafficking, whether the current legislation is remotely robust enough, and whether it exists in Ireland at appreciable levels.

    I don't think anyone is calling for an outright ban on prostitution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    Well, from my experience talking about this topic, and considering there is no evidence whatsoever to link prostitution and human trafficking in Ireland, normally it turns out that the people looking to link prostitution with kidnapping also think prostitution is "obviously" wrong and should be banned.

    This topic is pointless unless someone can connect prostitution with human trafficking in Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    dublin dude here seems to be guilty of confusing opinion with fact

    he doesnt believe that paying for sex is wrong , many people do
    he doesnt believe that prostitutes are victims , most are

    who would want there sister or girlfriend to be a prostitute
    imagine the scenario where a bunch of junior infant girls are asked by there teacher what they want to be when they grow up , a few would probably say they want to be a teacher , some might say they want to be in the spice girls , how many do you think would say they want to be a prostitute

    the vast vast majoity of prostitutes come from disadvantaged backrounds , be it in ireland or overseas , hence the large number or easten european and african prostitutes opperating in ireland , how many hookers from the usa , canada or australia do we know of here , none , there all from poor countries more or less

    many tend to come from broken homes where sexual abuse was a constant thread and many have drug problems
    it is nonesense to even use the word job in the same sentence as the word prostitute in an attempt to give the activity some degree of respectability

    its a cliche at this stage but none the less a truthful one
    all prostitutes are victims

    btw , ive no opinion on ruhamma , im not at all religous either


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    irish_bob wrote: »
    dublin dude here seems to be guilty of confusing opinion with fact

    No! That's my point. My opinions are based on fact.

    Fact: there is no link between human trafficking and prostitution in Ireland.
    irish_bob wrote: »
    he doesnt believe that paying for sex is wrong , many people do

    I think you'll find most people don't have a problem with it. However, it doesn't matter what % think it is right or wrong.
    irish_bob wrote: »
    he doesnt believe that prostitutes are victims , most are

    If they choose to do it, and make many thousands of euro each week... how are they victims?

    Seriously, explain to me how they are victims.
    irish_bob wrote: »
    who would want there sister or girlfriend to be a prostitute

    You're mixing emotion with reality.

    Of course no one wants their sister to be a prostitute.

    So what?

    I don't want my sister to join the army, become a nun, or have a sex change.

    So What?
    irish_bob wrote: »
    imagine the scenario where a bunch of junior infant girls are asked by there teacher what they want to be when they grow up , a few would probably say they want to be a teacher , some might say they want to be in the spice girls , how many do you think would say they want to be a prostitute

    None. Again, what has this got to do with anything?

    No one is saying being a prostitute is a nice job, or an easy job.

    All we are saying is they choose to do it, the man chooses to pay, everyone gets what they want out of it, and it's none of our business what they get up to.
    irish_bob wrote: »
    the vast vast majoity of prostitutes come from disadvantaged backrounds , be it in ireland or overseas , hence the large number or easten european and african prostitutes opperating in ireland , how many hookers from the usa , canada or australia do we know of here , none , there all from poor countries more or less

    There are prostitutes from everywhere. Yes they all do it for money. Yes I don't think a millionaire would choose to be a prostitute.

    But you know what? A millionaire wouldn't choose to work in McDonald's either.

    The fact that people work as prostitutes because they can earn a lot of money quickly is irrelevant.
    irish_bob wrote: »
    many tend to come from broken homes where sexual abuse was a constant thread and many have drug problems

    Bull****.
    irish_bob wrote: »
    its a cliche at this stage but none the less a truthful one all prostitutes are victims

    How are they victims?

    Until you can back this up with something other than your personal opinion, you need to stop saying this.

    Will I start saying all soldiers are victims? I may as well. It has the same amount of validity as your option.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    dublindude wrote: »
    If they choose to do it, and make many thousands of euro each week... how are they victims?...Will I start saying all soldiers are victims? I may as well. It has the same amount of validity as your option.

    I have to agree with this 100 %, in ireland at least.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    dublindude wrote: »
    Ireland and the US are two totally different animals.

    My opinion is based on the Irish situation only.

    I would go one step further and say your opinion is based on your experience of the Irish situation only. What makes you think that Ireland is vulnerable to every ill that exists in US society except this particular one? I agree that not a lot of research and stats are available on prostitution in Ireland but I think that's a symptom of the attitude to sex in Ireland (as you pointed out, AngryBadger). Prositution is still very much a taboo here. I would draw a parallel with mental health services in Ireland.
    dublindude wrote: »
    That's not correct. The law protects (mostly) things from happening against your will, e.g. being killed, raped, robed, attacked.

    The law should not be based on morals, like Taleban law.

    I understand that you have very liberal morals-not a criticism in any way. I understand the idea that if two consenting adults are involved and not hurting anyone else, what's the problem? But I would argue that there are inherent issues with prostution, both physical and psychological. The very fact that a woman is left alone in a room with a strange man who feels that he will have total control over her body for the next 30mins/hour is a very, very threatening situation. I also think that prostitution leaves psychological scars on many women. These are not things that can be removed by legalisation (again, what is your opinion on legalisation?)

    I mean there are occupational hazards and there are occupational hazards. Violence or the threat of it, rape and murder should not really be labelled as just occupational hazards. Just on the soldier point, while i'm a total pacifist, I accept that in situations like Darfuer, it is necessary for soldiers to perform their duty and put themselves in dangerous situations in order to protect civilians. Prostitutes? What exactly are they achieving? You can't compare..although one possible comparison would be the pointless danger that US soliders have been put in through the war in Iraq - they've prostituted themselves out for the the US administration's greed for oil. Disgusting, pointless waste of life.

    I think it's unfair to compare my morals to the Taleban, just because they are stricter than yours. I'm sorry but every society exists on morals, just different levels of morals. That is just a fact. Again, it's just a matter of where you draw the line. Each society is based on a system of values. Law is the encoding of this value system - that's a basic tenant of the philosophy of law.

    dublindude wrote: »
    No, you're totally off the mark there. Killing someone involves making someone else do something against their will, i.e. die. Prostitution has agreement from everyone involved.
    See, I think that's where we disagree. I fully accept that some women are mentally balanced, have no financial difficulties and are very happy with their chosen career as a prostitute. BUT I would say that they are in the minority.

    I have studied prostitution so I'm not just throwing things out there. There are studies of prostutites, not just the one I referenced earlier, that show that many women in prositution have a history of abuse, are drug addicts, are in financial difficulty, have been forced/trafficked into prostitution. Also, I think a lot of them would leave prostitution if they could (as has been shown in the referenced study and others), IF sufficient services were available for them.
    dublindude wrote: »
    There are lots of Irish prostitutes. In fact, there are prostitutes from everywhere.

    Of course women only work as prostitutes because of the money. So what?

    Right, I accept that there are Irish prostitutes. However, why are so many of them from poorer countries? Do you accept that there is a link between poverty and prostitution?
    dublindude wrote: »
    The Gardai raid brothels all the time. If you knew anything about the sex industry you'd know that was the case.
    I was referencing the article that you quoted. The det. says at the end: "We do not go after the girls - we wouldn't even consider doing that. It is the organisers that we are interested in," he said".

    Dublindude - you can't say for a fact that there is no link between prostitution and human trafficking in Ireland - it's preposterous!

    Edit: Things are looking up: Irish Times article from today:
    PIMPS FORCING people trafficked into Ireland into prostitution, and customers who have sex with those trafficked, will be liable to prison terms of up to five years, under legislation which has been passed by the Dáil and Seanad.

    Introducing a new amendment to the Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Bill 2007, Minister of State Brendan Smith said the offence would not be easy to enforce. "However, it could be useful in certain circumstances, such as where a trafficked person is forced to operate from a hotel room, a room in an apartment block, where other residents may become aware of what is going on." He added: "It may also prove useful in planned Garda raids on brothels where trafficked persons are compelled to operate."

    The amendment provides that the trafficked person who is forced to work as a prostitute does not commit an offence. It also differs from the existing provision, which is essentially a public order offence, in that the person soliciting can be in any public or private place and the penalties in the new offence are more severe.

    Mr Smith said that Minister for Justice Brian Lenihan had cautioned that any such offence "would have to be credible and enforceable. Placing such a criminal offence in the Bill would have to be more than a sign of society's intolerance and condemnation of persons using the services of those unfortunate persons who were trafficked into Ireland for the purposes of sexual exploitation".

    The existing provision linked to soliciting for prostitution is essentially a public order offence.

    Fine Gael spokesman on migration and integration Denis Naughten welcomed the amendment and said that "for the first time . . . someone who avails of such services will be criminalised". He called on the Minister to consider establishing an all-party group to consider introducing legislation which would criminalise the purchase of sexual services in general.

    He said: "There is a clear correlation between supply and demand in all markets. If the demand dries up, the supply is redundant."

    Mr Naughten added that agencies such as Ruhama and the Rape Crisis Centre have noted ". . . there is a greater demand for young foreign women who travel to Ireland, many of whom it is strongly suspected are being trafficked to be exploited".

    Oh no! Abort! Abort! They referred to Ruhama!! (j/k) :)

    Just one thing: you haven't explained why Ruhama have so little credibility.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Another Irish Times article:
    Hidden world of the sex traffickers

    Three women who came to Ireland with the promise of good jobs say they were forced to have sex with men. Ruadhán Mac Cormaic reports from Romania and Dublin in his continuing series Migration and the reinvention of Ireland.

    They were at school the morning it was first broached between them. Cristina and her friend had grown up together in the village, not far from Bacau at the foot of the Carpathian mountains in northeastern Romania, and knew each other like sisters.

    So when the girl mentioned Ireland and the chance of a clean break, Cristina did what confidantes do. She listened. It was December four years ago. Cristina was 17.

    "Sometimes it feels like it was yesterday, and there are other moments when I am thinking about what happened . . ." Cristina's voice trails off. She draws breath, cupping her mug of tea in both hands.

    As her friend knew, Cristina was having trouble at home and didn't take much convincing once the prospect of a well-paid restaurant job in Ireland was put before her. "Her sister was in Ireland with her boyfriend. She trusted her sister. She said to me that if I go there, I will have a better life and I could earn more money than here."

    By January they were gone. Accompanied by her friend and a Romanian acquaintance, they drove "like normal people" to Italy, where the girls were given false papers and were introduced to the man who would take them the rest of the way. First to Paris, then to Ireland.

    "In Italy I realised that something was strange," Cristina says. "Everyone was saying: 'It's okay, don't worry. We have to give you the fake ID because it's hard to cross the border'."

    When they landed at Cork airport, the girls were met by her friend's sister and her boyfriend, Radu, a Romanian in his early 30s. That evening they drove to Arbour Hill in north Dublin, where Radu was renting an apartment.

    "They were happy, everything was okay - 'nice to see you', 'good that you arrived'. He was [ saying] something like: 'you can eat, you can relax now and we'll talk with you in a few days and we'll find a job'."

    There was to be no job, as Cristina was to discover. "I suspected something but I didn't know for sure. After three days, I think, he came to us and told us that we had to go shopping, and he brought us to buy skirts and everything. And then he took us and told us that we had to go to speak with this Irish guy.

    "I knew what was happening, but I didn't want to believe it. It was [ then] only a nightmare that could have happened. But I didn't know exactly what was happening or what I had to do."

    The Irishman to whom Cristina was presented that day was a criminal with a previous conviction for brothel-keeping in Dublin. A former RUC reservist who now lives in England, he ran brothels from at least two apartments in the city at the time.

    The day after this meeting Cristina was brought from Arbour Hill to an apartment in the upmarket Herbert Park complex in Ballsbridge, south Dublin. There were several other girls there when she arrived.

    "He told me I was going to work with men."

    On the first night Cristina was forced to have sex with five or six men: she's not sure how many, because in her mind those days and nights have become one, an uninterrupted sequence of unspeakable, unthinkable torment.

    Each day she would be brought by car from Arbour Hill to Ballsbridge and each day she would see between 10 and 12 men, to whom she was offered as an "Italian girl" for about €200 an hour.

    She slept for four hours in 24, though her sleep was so close to waking that it was hardly worth the name. She was never out of Radu's sight. She was never given any money. And she was beaten.

    "I was crying every day, all the time. I was only sleeping three or four hours a day, and then 'work'," she says. When a client would come to the apartment, he would be invited to select one of five or six women in the room. Invariably, she would break down.

    "And when I was crying, all the time they were like: [ pointing] 'I want that one'. I was crying and they wanted me to go with them in the room to have sex. They didn't care."

    There was no typical client, Cristina says - they were young and old, Irish and foreign. All they had in common was their failure to offer her help. All but one, that is: one man gave Cristina his telephone number and told her to call. But before she could find a phone, Radu had rummaged through her purse and taken the slip of paper.

    Cristina's incarceration ended after two months when gardaí raided the Arbour Hill flat and arrested everyone inside. Unlike the others, Cristina told gardaí everything.

    She was sent to Mountjoy women's prison before being brought to court for possession of false documents.

    There, the judge presented Cristina with two options: to leave the country within seven days or remain in prison until the authorities could deport her.

    Radu was freed after three months, while the Irishman faced no charges. Neither could be charged with trafficking Cristina to Ireland because, uniquely among EU states, there is no such offence here. And because there are no specific laws to punish traffickers or protect their victims, it is not known how many others have come to Ireland in circumstances similar to Cristina's.

    Announcing last month that Ireland had signed the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings, an important symbolic step towards a formalised legal structure, Minister for Justice Michael McDowell said that "instances of trafficking have been rare to date".

    Advocacy groups disagree. Ruhama, an organisation that works with women involved in prostitution, is aware of more than 200 foreign women who were trafficked into Ireland in the past seven years.

    According to Gerardine Rowley, its spokeswoman, this is a fraction of the actual number, for it tells us only of those women who were told about Ruhama and could bring themselves to seek help.

    As Rowley points out, trafficking is a crime that doesn't reveal itself.

    One must go looking for it, and one reason for the lack of knowledge about the problem in Ireland is that so few know how to identify its tracks. In the past six weeks, The Irish Times has identified four unreported cases of recent trafficking in Ireland, two of which are detailed below.

    "It's a new issue for the country and a lot of professionals don't understand the issue of trafficking. They're not able to identify women who are at risk," says Rowley.

    Trends in the sex industry also make it harder to find the victims.

    The universal use of the internet and mobile phones, for instance, has made the business paradoxically more accessible and less overt, and most foreign women are put to work indoors and not on the streets, making it more difficult for support groups to reach them.

    For those who run the business, this remains a high-yield, low-risk crime - fewer than five people have been given custodial sentences for running brothels in the Republic.

    The women helped by Ruhama span in age from 17 to early 30s, their countries of origin ranging from Russia and Romania to Mongolia, Brazil and Cameroon.

    While drawing victim profiles is notoriously difficult, in most cases of trafficking for sexual exploitation the recruiter is known to the victim.

    And while poverty is common, many victims come from average-income backgrounds, argues Dani Kozak of the International Organisation for Migration in Romania. "Not all the victims are poor and uneducated. I'm afraid that people are using that as an excuse not to deal with trafficking and the victims. They say: 'this only happens to people that are stupid or naïve'."

    While the Government recently signed the convention on trafficking, it is not known when it will be ratified.

    Last year the Department of Justice said it aimed to publish legislation by the end of 2006, but at present only the scheme of a Bill is available, and that fell with the dissolution of the Dáil.

    The Department of Justice had said that the separate needs of victims - not mentioned in the scheme of the trafficking Bill - would be addressed as part of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill, but when that Bill was published on April 27th, it contained no such express provision for victims' rights.

    The convention states that there needs to be a three-month reflection and recovery period for victims like Cristina, and the Government needs to offer a residence permit where the victim's stay in Ireland is considered necessary for an investigation or criminal proceedings.

    "Until these rights are enshrined in legislation, we feel that there is little incentive for victims to bring themselves to the attention of the authorities," says Fiona Crowley of Amnesty International's Irish section, who believes the Government is in denial about the problem, despite constructive evidence of its existence.

    On her return to Romania, Cristina was given extensive counselling and a place at a shelter for victims of trafficking.

    Her sister knows what happened her, but she has never told her ailing mother for fear of upsetting her.

    There are girls who were put in worse positions than her, Cristina remarks. Some were much younger, and others "had horrible experiences more than I had."

    Cristina is bright, articulate and self-aware. In recent years she has returned to university and her life has taken on the outer shape of any 22-year-old's.

    "I can move on," she says. "The memories still remain here. I can't forget it. But I think I can move on."

    Don't tell me there's no trafficking in the Irish sex industry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I will comment properly tomorrow, but I'll bet you nearly anything the above article was provided by Ruhama.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I personally know the guy who wrote the article above. He is an excellent investigative journalist.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    taconnol wrote: »
    The very fact that a woman is left alone in a room with a strange man who feels that he will have total control over her body for the next 30mins/hour is a very, very threatening situation. I also think that prostitution leaves psychological scars on many women. These are not things that can be removed by legalisation (again, what is your opinion on legalisation?)

    I think you're missing the point here taconnol, and i think we're about to start having the same feminism/civil liberty argument again. If any person finds themselves, against their will, in a situation where, for a 30-minute window, another person has "complete" control over them I think that's a major problem. However, if a person consents to this situation it completely changes the scenery in terms of their basic rights. Yes a prostitute in this situation is entitled not to be raped/assaulted by the john, but to be in that situation is her choice.

    I think dublindudes argument is that for a significant number of women prostitution is a life choice, erego it's their right to sell their bodies for financial gain. For the record in the last few nonths I've had a few women offer their sexual organs for my use in exchange for monetary compensation. One of these women had a degree in journalism and was in employment, another was in college, and very well articulated, more than capable of stating her case. I'm not presenting these cases as representative of 100 % of cases in Ireland, but I am presenting them as examples of a scenario which does exist within our society whether you or I like it or not.

    For the record I declined the offers on all points, (Padraic don't pay ladies).

    To address my point about your argument and how it relates to these womens civil liberties. If they're making the choice to become prostitutes of their own accord, (even of such cases represent only a minority of the total number), then you're actually infringing on their rights to make that choice by stepping in and saying "we need to legislate against this sort of thing" and then producing laws that prevent them from engaging in this activity.

    Just so we're clear, there should[/s] be legislation to protect everyone from assault/attack/rape/etc, but why should there be legislation to prevent people engaging in activities that some of us may find morally reprehensible purely on the basis that we don't like these activities. That kind of lawmaking is actually taking freedoms away from people, and that's wrong, even if we don't think they should have the free dom to make CERTAIN choices.

    taconnol wrote: »
    I think it's unfair to compare my morals to the Taleban, just because they are stricter than yours. I'm sorry but every society exists on morals, just different levels of morals. That is just a fact. Again, it's just a matter of where you draw the line. Each society is based on a system of values. Law is the encoding of this value system - that's a basic tenant of the philosophy of law.

    In principle I believe morality should come into play when drawing up laws. However, it's role should not be a digital "black or white" scale of judgement. Remember, morality is, unfortunately, a COMPLETELY subjective concept. I think it's wrong to take a life, but you can be dam sure if it was a choice between me and some guy who attacked me, I'd be the one walking away, and I wouldn't feel a jot of guilt about that. Maybe that makes me abad eprson, or maybe it just means my instince for survival over-rides any sense of morality, or maybe I happen to think that someone who attacks someone else has relinquished any and all protections afforded them under our current moral system. In any case there is no absolute view of that situation. Erego, i don't agree that all laws should be constructed on an entirely moral basis.
    taconnol wrote: »
    See, I think that's where we disagree. I fully accept that some women are mentally balanced, have no financial difficulties and are very happy with their chosen career as a prostitute. BUT I would say that they are in the minority.

    See now you've dissappointed me here taconnol. On what grounds are you deciding that only "some" women are mentally balanced? Although you don't realise it this kind of thinking is inherently sexist, and is in fact a reason why there are women out there who genuinely experience and combat on a daily basis disgusting levels of sexism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    I jsut read the first half of taconnols referenced article, and like every other article I've ever read about prostitution/trafficking it left me feeling sick to my stomach.

    I'll finish later, need to get some work done now.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I think you're missing the point here taconnol, and i think we're about to start having the same feminism/civil liberty argument again. If any person finds themselves, against their will, in a situation where, for a 30-minute window, another person has "complete" control over them I think that's a major problem. However, if a person consents to this situation it completely changes the scenery in terms of their basic rights. Yes a prostitute in this situation is entitled not to be raped/assaulted by the john, but to be in that situation is her choice.

    I think dublindudes argument is that for a significant number of women prostitution is a life choice, erego it's their right to sell their bodies for financial gain. For the record in the last few nonths I've had a few women offer their sexual organs for my use in exchange for monetary compensation. One of these women had a degree in journalism and was in employment, another was in college, and very well articulated, more than capable of stating her case. I'm not presenting these cases as representative of 100 % of cases in Ireland, but I am presenting them as examples of a scenario which does exist within our society whether you or I like it or not.

    I accept that these women exist, really I do! However, I would argue that they are in the minority. Again, we come back to this idea of "choice", which I'll talk about below
    To address my point about your argument and how it relates to these womens civil liberties. If they're making the choice to become prostitutes of their own accord, (even of such cases represent only a minority of the total number), then you're actually infringing on their rights to make that choice by stepping in and saying "we need to legislate against this sort of thing" and then producing laws that prevent them from engaging in this activity.

    Just so we're clear, there should[/s] be legislation to protect everyone from assault/attack/rape/etc, but why should there be legislation to prevent people engaging in activities that some of us may find morally reprehensible purely on the basis that we don't like these activities. That kind of lawmaking is actually taking freedoms away from people, and that's wrong, even if we don't think they should have the free dom to make CERTAIN choices.

    I do agree with what you've said here. It makes sense. To be honest I think I am in favour of legalising prostitution (I think..) because I think that the most important thing is thes safety of these women, not what upper-class society feel that they can/cannot bear. Again, how to do you make sure that women are doing it out of their own free will?
    In principle I believe morality should come into play when drawing up laws. However, it's role should not be a digital "black or white" scale of judgement. Remember, morality is, unfortunately, a COMPLETELY subjective concept. I think it's wrong to take a life, but you can be dam sure if it was a choice between me and some guy who attacked me, I'd be the one walking away, and I wouldn't feel a jot of guilt about that. Maybe that makes me abad eprson, or maybe it just means my instince for survival over-rides any sense of morality, or maybe I happen to think that someone who attacks someone else has relinquished any and all protections afforded them under our current moral system. In any case there is no absolute view of that situation. Erego, i don't agree that all laws should be constructed on an entirely moral basis.

    True, but this is a very, very muddy, complex area. Almost every law we have today is based on some sort of value judgement. ie, we value life, therefore murder is bad. We value property a lot, therefore it makes up a large part of our legislation, etc. As an example,it is very interesting these days to see the shift in our value system towards environmentally friendly ideas. The result is changes in the car tax system, etc. As our morals change, so too do our laws.

    I would love to see a law that is not based on a moral/value judgement - primarily because I don't think it exists!
    See now you've dissappointed me here taconnol. On what grounds are you deciding that only "some" women are mentally balanced? Although you don't realise it this kind of thinking is inherently sexist, and is in fact a reason why there are women out there who genuinely experience and combat on a daily basis disgusting levels of sexism.
    Disappointed you? meh. It's not inherently sexist to understand that many women who "choose" to go into prostitution do so under very limited options (be they financial, lack of education or otherwise). A lot of them also have been abused in their past - this is what I'm talking about when I speak of being mentally balanced. Why is it sexist to conider that an abusive history may have an impact on their life choices? I'm not saying that women aren't capable of making their own decisions in life, I'm saying that many of them who end up in prostitution have been psychologically harmed and this affects their choices. I don't think I'm being sexist in the slightest. Really - please explain why this is sexist.

    There have been many studies on this link between abuse in younger life and prostitution. I'll list one, that was published in March 2008, but I can provide more:

    An Examination of Risky Sexual Behavior and HIV in Victims of Child Abusenext term and Neglect: A 30-Year Follow-Up
    Helen W. Wilsona, Corresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author and Cathy Spatz Widoma
    aDepartment of Psychology at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, The City University of New York

    Results: Child maltreatment was associated with prostitution(OR = 2.47, 95% CI = 1.35–4.50) and early sexual contact (OR = 1.73, 95% CI = 1.24–2.40). Prevalence of HIV in the abuse/neglect group was twice that in controls (OR = 2.35, 95% CI = .64–8.62), although this difference did not reach conventional levels of statistical significance. SEM provided significant support for a model linking child abuse and neglect to prostitution through early sexual contact and a marginal link to HIV through prostitution. Conclusion: These findings provide prospective evidence that maltreated children are more likely to report sexual contact before age 15, engage in prostitution by young adulthood, and test positive for HIV in middle adulthood.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    taconnol wrote: »
    Disappointed you? meh. It's not inherently sexist to understand that many women who "choose" to go into prostitution do so under very limited options (be they financial, lack of education or otherwise). A lot of them also have been abused in their past - this is what I'm talking about when I speak of being mentally balanced. Why is it sexist to conider that an abusive history may have an impact on their life choices? I'm not saying that women aren't capable of making their own decisions in life, I'm saying that many of them who end up in prostitution have been psychologically harmed and this affects their choices. I don't think I'm being sexist in the slightest. Really - please explain why this is sexist.

    Ok, I have no problem with any of this, but the wording on the post I previously referred too implied that most women were not mentally balanced. Maybe I'm taking your post too literally, maybe you just overlooked that when psoting, or maybe you actually think most women are in fact mentally unstable?

    If not then fine, I have no issue with the above argument, but I stand by the idea that it's sexist to say that majority of women are mentally unbalanced.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    hah, yes probably. I'm in the middle of finishing up essay & assignments so I may have sped through a few posts. So, I may well have written something in such a manner that implied something I don't believe.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    You say you would argue women who choose to be prostitutes are in the minority. Please share this argument with us. Include some evidence to support your argument.

    You still haven't explained how prostitutes are victims. Many jobs have risks. You can be raped on a one night stand. The issues prostitutes face can happen to anyone. They know the risks, they accept the risks, and they are well compensated for it.

    Maybe you can answer me this too:

    Topless girls in Page 3. Do they have a choice?
    Fully nude girls in Playboy. Do they have a choice?
    Fully nude girls touching themselves in Hustler. Do they have a choice?
    Girls who have sex as pornstars. Do they have a choice?
    Girls who have sex as prostitutes. Do they have a choice?
    What about lapdancers? Strippers? Strip-o-grams?
    Where do you draw the line? What evidence are you basing your opinion on?

    The Irish Times article. I'd be very surprised if that isn't a Ruhama plant. However, I'm willing to accept it's a real case. Two issues however:

    1. What industry doesn't have some horror stories?
    2. The ex-RUC man. I know him. He is a multi-millionaire. He owns websites, brothels and a hotel. He is not a kidnapper and he has no need whatsoever to kidnap women. He is often attacked by Ruhama. Surprise, surprise the article mentions him.

    The issue here is you have issues with sex, and you do not believe women have the ability to choose. You are unable to accept women choose to be prostitutes. That's pretty sad. Women are a lot more capable and independent than you think.

    There are all kinds of people in this world. Some think sex is horrible, some think it's great, some use it to make money.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I would appreciate it if you would desist with the personal attacks. I don't have issues with sex and you would do well to not pass such derogatory comments about someone you have never met. I'm interested in discussing this in a mature manner. AngryBadger is perfectly capable of disagreeing with me and not putting me down. I suggest you learn from him.

    It would appear that you haven't bothered to read what I wrote. So I'll quote it for you:
    I accept that these women exist, really I do!
    I'm really not going to bother repeating myself any further. I think I have put forward my opinion on the idea of 'choice' in the profession of prostitution in a sufficiently articulate manner.

    The issues prostitutes face can happen to anyone but the difference is that prostitutes regularly put themselves in extremely dangerous situations on a regular basis.

    I would think the difference between your many sex-workers listed above and prostitues is clear. Is a page 3 model in serious danger of being subjected to abuse and violence, possibly death? No. Same with the others, although of course the smaller the physical distance between the girl and the client, the greater the physical dangers.

    ZZZZ Ruhama...conspiracy theory...zzzz.. Can you put up some facts about Ruhama and why they are so evil and not to be trusted?

    To turn it back on you, I would like you to provide some stats on how all the prostitutes are there from their own free will, excluding your own personal anecdotes, if you don't mind.

    Just on the issue of women knowing all the facts when they go into prostitution: aside from that being an astonishing, wide-sweeping assertion, there are studies that contradict this:

    Female sex street workers and sexually transmitted infections: Their knowledge and behaviour in Italy. Francesca Trani, Carlo Altomare, Carmelo G.A. Nobile and Italo F. Angelillo

    Results:
    A total of 241 female sex street workers were interviewed. A vast majority knew AIDS and syphilis, whereas the knowledge about other STIs was unsatisfactory. Only 11.7% knew that STIs are transmitted by sexual intercourse with HIV seropositive partners, by unprotected sexual intercourse, and that kissing was not a mode of transmission. This knowledge was significantly higher in female sex street workers with a higher number of years in sex work and among those who received information from physicians and associations about STIs. The mean score of fear for contracting STIs was 7.5 and being younger, practicing prostitution for shorter period of time, and requiring more information about STIs were significantly associated with this fear. ‘Ever condom use’ was 100% during anal intercourse with clients; whereas only one woman reported vaginal and oral intercourse without condom. Only 15.2, 16.7, and 30% of those engaged in vaginal, oral, and anal intercourse with a non-paying sexual partner used condoms all the times. Overall, 83.5% of female sex street workers used a condom every time with clients or non-paying partners and those with fewer clients and partners routinely were more likely to use it.
    Conclusion: Interventions for preventing STIs and for improving the level of knowledge of STIs among female sex street workers are strongly needed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    It's not a personal attack; from what you've been saying it's pretty clear you don't really believe women are capable of choosing to work as prostitutes.

    Yes you think *some* choose it, but you have stated most don't.

    You have a problem with women having sex for money. That's fine, but that's only how you feel. It's not how prostitutes feel. You're projecting your own personal feelings on the matter onto the women. They don't necessarily have the same opinions as you.

    I know it's a weird job, and I know it's more dangerous than your average office job, but that's a total non-issue. They are choosing their profession. End of story.

    Regarding Ruhama, they are run by a group of priests and nuns. I know a journalist who has been investigating them for a few years now. She has repeatedly tried to get them to prove any of their claims, but they are unable to do so.

    I know you won't accept this, but the fact that there isn't a single conviction for sex trafficking in Ireland, and that the head of the Gardai anti-prostitution unit says there isn't a problem... that means something. And you say I'm the conspiracy theorist? :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    taconnol wrote: »
    hah, yes probably. I'm in the middle of finishing up essay & assignments so I may have sped through a few posts. So, I may well have written something in such a manner that implied something I don't believe.

    Well then I apologise, from the tone, and content of your psots it's clear that you're not marginalising anyone in any demographic, and i should really have made allowance for that.

    Good show sirrah :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    In the news today. Two Chinese women working by choice in their own brothel.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/jail-for-chinese-nurse-who-opened-up-brothel-1368540.html

    Of interest:
    Mr Harte said there was never any use of "pimps, bouncers or heavies" and that the business was run on a "voluntary and fee-sharing arrangement".


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Funny how you jump on that article but try to undermine the story I posted with vague unfounded allegations about an unrelated organisation.

    The quote on it being run on a "voluntary and fee-sharing arrangement" is too vague. What ratio of fee sharing, for example?

    God, haven't I said that I accept that these women exist enough times for you? Why don't you try doing the same and accept that human trafficking is a problem in the Irish sex industry?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I don't accept it's a problem because the head of the Gardai's anti-prostituton squad says it's not a problem. I don't think it's in his interest to say his job shouldn't exist.

    Yet somehow a journalist - who quotes Ruhama in a very heavily spun article - has discovered it's a problem. I find it hard to take his article seriously as it sounds exactly like the bull**** Ruhama comes out with and the guy they blame for it I know for a fact is not a kidnapper/sex trafficker.

    I don't think prostitution is a nice job. Would a perfectly mentally healthy person work as a prostitute? I don't know. But I don't think we should associate kidnapping with prostitution just because we personally cannot imagine being a prostitute.

    There are so many girls willing to work as prostitutes, and there is so much money in prostitution, that it makes no sense for a pimp to **** it all up by adding kidnapper to his CV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,494 ✭✭✭ronbyrne2005


    TV3 and Karen Coleman did a lot on this topic last night and on Newstalk on Sunday. Coleman seemed outraged at fact that it was'nt illegal to use a mobile phone for arranging prostitution.
    She did an hour on her Newstalk show on the issue on Sunday and then presented an hour long programme on TV3 last night and Vincent Browne's show discussed the "investigation" (stating bloody obvious more like) with Ruhamma, Coleman and what appeared to be some feminist lawyer. Despite little or no evidence of trafficking for sex slavery in Ireland Ruhama lady insisted that it was a huge problem based on her own subjective experiences. Browne was really up against it as the 3 women guests all seemed anti a womans choice to enter prosptitution/pornography etc despite seeming to also be femisist who you'd expect to be pro womans choice. They did'nt mention male prostitutes/rent boys at all.

    If there is any evidence of trafficking of women and children for sexual purposes I am all for a crackdown and tougher laws and more gardai resources. I am also all for helping drug addicted prostitutes get their lives back in order, but the fact is vast majority of women(and men) working in sex trades, pornography etc CHOOSE to do so and don't see any moral problems with it.
    Ruhama and others deliberately attempt to confuse the issue by referring to lap dancing, prostitution and sex slave trafficking in same breath. I don't know how this Ruhama crowd get so much space in media when they are clearly anti all adult entertainment and religous zealots. In Ruhama's mind no women can ever willingly enter prostitution/pornography and if they do they must be somehow unwell psychologically or otherwise. What would you expect from a group whose religon has suppressed women for millenia.


This discussion has been closed.
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