Genuine question from an atheist.

spacecoyote · 20-01-2009 01:56PM #1

Apologies if this has been dealt with before, if it has maybe someone can point me in the direction of the thread. my question is this:

With regards to heaven, my understanding is that the christian faith says that all who are saved will be resurrected a live in heaven on earth. Just out of curiosity, how will people look when resurrected (i'm not trying to make a zombie joke here

). If you die as a 12 year old, will you be resurrected as a 12 year old, if you are 100, will you be resurrected as a 100 year old? And will people die again once resurrected?

PDN · 20-01-2009 02:30PM

spacecoyote wrote: »

Apologies if this has been dealt with before, if it has maybe someone can point me in the direction of the thread. my question is this:

With regards to heaven, my understanding is that the christian faith says that all who are saved will be resurrected a live in heaven on earth. Just out of curiosity, how will people look when resurrected (i'm not trying to make a zombie joke here ). If you die as a 12 year old, will you be resurrected as a 12 year old, if you are 100, will you be resurrected as a 100 year old? And will people die again once resurrected?

Nobody knows. Those kinds of details are not revealed, so speculation would be pretty pointless.

kelly1 · 20-01-2009 05:53PM

spacecoyote wrote: »

Apologies if this has been dealt with before, if it has maybe someone can point me in the direction of the thread. my question is this:

With regards to heaven, my understanding is that the christian faith says that all who are saved will be resurrected a live in heaven on earth. Just out of curiosity, how will people look when resurrected (i'm not trying to make a zombie joke here ). If you die as a 12 year old, will you be resurrected as a 12 year old, if you are 100, will you be resurrected as a 100 year old? And will people die again once resurrected?

Everyone will be resurrected, including the damned. So those saved will presumably have beautiful bodies (like Jesus) and the damned, ugly ones.

I don't know about Heaven on earth? I read something about a new heaven on earth - bit foggy on that one. How could we see the Beatific Vision on earth? Not sure.

On your last point, there will be no more death after the resurrection.

God bless,
Noel.

philologos · 20-01-2009 07:21PM

spacecoyote wrote: »

Apologies if this has been dealt with before, if it has maybe someone can point me in the direction of the thread. my question is this:

With regards to heaven, my understanding is that the christian faith says that all who are saved will be resurrected a live in heaven on earth. Just out of curiosity, how will people look when resurrected (i'm not trying to make a zombie joke here ). If you die as a 12 year old, will you be resurrected as a 12 year old, if you are 100, will you be resurrected as a 100 year old? And will people die again once resurrected?

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul speaks about the Christbody. The idea has influenced René Descartes philosophy about the body and the mind being separate. i.e the mind living on after the body is dead. Whether or not this is 100% accurate is debatable.

Bduffman · 21-01-2009 09:16AM

kelly1 wrote: »

Everyone will be resurrected, including the damned. So those saved will presumably have beautiful bodies (like Jesus) and the damned, ugly ones.

That seems very shallow. Sounds like that was written at a time when physical ugliness was associated with evil & physical beauty associated with good?

philologos · 21-01-2009 11:02AM

Bduffman wrote: »

That seems very shallow. Sounds like that was written at a time when physical ugliness was associated with evil & physical beauty associated with good?

Well how come Lazarus who was covered in sores was shown by Jesus to have reached the Kingdom of Heaven?

Those who have faith irrespective of their appearance will receive the Christbody.

Bduffman · 21-01-2009 11:56AM

Jakkass wrote: »

Well how come Lazarus who was covered in sores was shown by Jesus to have reached the Kingdom of Heaven?

Those who have faith irrespective of their appearance will receive the Christbody.

Maybe his earthly body had sores - but doesn't he get a beautiful body in heaven? I would have though that if heaven was so perfect then physical appearance wouldn't matter so much.

spacecoyote · 21-01-2009 01:18PM

kelly1 wrote: »

On your last point, there will be no more death after the resurrection.

Thanks everyone for the replies. As a further question on this....do you believe that people will age then after they are resurrected?

Tomk1 · 21-01-2009 01:29PM

PDN wrote: »

Nobody knows. Those kinds of details are not revealed, so speculation would be pretty pointless.

Ironic !!!

kelly1 wrote: »

Everyone will be resurrected, including the damned. So those saved will presumably have beautiful bodies (like Jesus) and the damned, ugly ones.

Beauty is on the inside my friend. (does that mean you think you should get plastic surgary to get into Heaven?

When I was christian I thought they where spirt-like not Brad & Angalina. If they have beautiful bodies then they can have babies in heaven.

faceman · 21-01-2009 01:34PM

Your soul goes to heaven, not your body. Your soul is ageless. So whatever our souls look like is what we will look like in heaven i guess.

Heaven is also timeless, therefore there is no aging process. Thats a good thing though, to live for eternity is alot better than living for forever.

Bduffman · 21-01-2009 04:26PM

faceman wrote: »

Your soul goes to heaven, not your body. Your soul is ageless. So whatever our souls look like is what we will look like in heaven i guess.

Heaven is also timeless, therefore there is no aging process. Thats a good thing though, to live for eternity is alot better than living for forever.

I may be showing my ignorance here but what happened to the ressurection of the body? Or is that only a catholic thing?

faceman · 21-01-2009 05:21PM

Bduffman wrote: »

I may be showing my ignorance here but what happened to the ressurection of the body? Or is that only a catholic thing?

its symbolic

kelly1 · 21-01-2009 05:28PM

spacecoyote wrote: »

Thanks everyone for the replies. As a further question on this....do you believe that people will age then after they are resurrected?

No, how could you age and live forever? Our bodies will be made of a different substance. We know this because Jesus was able to pass through doors and appear whereever He liked.

Bduffman wrote: »

I may be showing my ignorance here but what happened to the ressurection of the body? Or is that only a catholic thing?

It's a Christian thing.

kelly1 · 21-01-2009 05:30PM

faceman wrote: »

its symbolic

Is that a windup? The Christian faith is built on the belief that Jesus died and was resurrected!

faceman · 21-01-2009 05:31PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Is that a windup? The Christian faith is built on the belief that Jesus died and was resurrected!

The poster wasn't specifically referring to Christ. Unless i misunderstood him/her.

kelly1 · 21-01-2009 05:56PM

faceman wrote: »

The poster wasn't specifically referring to Christ. Unless i misunderstood him/her.

Do you mean to say that Christ was resurrected and that we won't?

Matthew 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

Acts 24:15 Having hope in God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust.

Resurrection applies to all of us.

faceman · 21-01-2009 07:46PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you mean to say that Christ was resurrected and that we won't?

Resurrection applies to all of us.

This kind of carry on gives us Christian's a bad name at times. Please re-read my post in this thread before leaping down my throat.

No where in that bible quotation does it say we are resurrected in the form that we are on earth, i.e. the body. In fact it hints at something completely different.

Whispered · 21-01-2009 08:31PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Resurrection applies to all of us.

If the christian belief is that the body is resurrected. What if someone is cremated - is the body then restored to it's pre-cremation state, or if they suffered an accident and lost a limb. Is the body restored to complete perfection?

Oh and also if the belief is in bodily resurrection (I'm not too clear if that is the belief or not so sorry if it's a silly question) but what age will you be resurrected at?

Thanks.

PDN · 21-01-2009 11:32PM

helena.ryan wrote: »

If the christian belief is that the body is resurrected. What if someone is cremated - is the body then restored to it's pre-cremation state, or if they suffered an accident and lost a limb. Is the body restored to complete perfection?

Oh and also if the belief is in bodily resurrection (I'm not too clear if that is the belief or not so sorry if it's a silly question) but what age will you be resurrected at?

Thanks.

Christian belief, and the teaching of the Bible, is most certainly that we will all experience a bodily resurrection.

Our new bodies will be glorious bodies, so whether our body's disintegration was by cremation or by being eaten by worms in a coffin shouldn't make much difference to an omnipotent God.

Húrin · 22-01-2009 12:55AM

"...they will be like the angels in heaven."

Age - irrelevant
Beauty - our standards are irrelevant

thanks you

Bduffman · 22-01-2009 08:52AM

PDN wrote: »

Christian belief, and the teaching of the Bible, is most certainly that we will all experience a bodily resurrection.

Our new bodies will be glorious bodies, so whether our body's disintegration was by cremation or by being eaten by worms in a coffin shouldn't make much difference to an omnipotent God.

How unusual that believers would disagree on something so fundamental as the resurrection of our bodies after death.:rolleyes:
One poster believes that resurrection is symbolic for all of us & only refers to jesus.
Another poster believes anyone with an ugly body will get a scrub up & will become nice, shiny & attractive in heaven.
Another believes that even if the body is destroyed on earth (which of course it always is) then we will get a new one in heaven. Which of course wouldn't actually be resurrection but replacement? No?

PDN · 22-01-2009 08:57AM

Bduffman wrote: »

How unusual that believers would disagree on something so fundamental as the resurrection of our bodies after death.:rolleyes:
One poster believes that resurrection is symbolic for all of us & only refers to jesus.
Another poster believes anyone with an ugly body will get a scrub up & will become nice, shiny & attractive in heaven.
Another believes that even if the body is destroyed on earth (which of course it always is) then we will get a new one in heaven. Which of course wouldn't actually be resurrection but replacement? No?

No, I think it more unusual that anyone would expect people with diverse opinions to agree about every little detail when many of those details are not revealed to us in Scripture and are completely irrelevant to our Christian lives or to our fundamental beliefs. :rolleyes:

You must long for the good old days when no-one was allowed to think for themselves.

kelly1 · 22-01-2009 10:26AM

faceman wrote: »

This kind of carry on gives us Christian's a bad name at times. Please re-read my post in this thread before leaping down my throat.

No where in that bible quotation does it say we are resurrected in the form that we are on earth, i.e. the body. In fact it hints at something completely different.

Not sure what you're getting at here Faceman. In post #12, you wrote "its symbolic". Presumably you were referring to resurrection? So what did you mean by symbolic?

Why wouldn't we have a body? I already said that it would be made of a different substance to what we are now. Jesus had a normal looking body after His Resurrection.

faceman · 22-01-2009 10:35AM

kelly1 wrote: »

Not sure what you're getting at here Faceman. In post #12, you wrote "its symbolic". Presumably you were referring to resurrection? So what did you mean by symbolic?

Why wouldn't we have a body? I already said that it would be made of a different substance to what we are now. Jesus had a normal looking body after His Resurrection.

Why would we have a body?
Christ's resurrection on earth was of the body.
our resurrection to heaven will be of the soul. None of us know what we look like in heaven, but i highly doubt its as a human being in the form we are in now because I would expect that the human body is not fit for purpose in heaven. Of course i could be wrong but none of us know, yet.

to clarify though, im not saying the resurrection of Christ on earth was symbolic.

CodeMonkey · 22-01-2009 10:43AM

PDN wrote: »

No, I think it more unusual that anyone would expect people with diverse opinions to agree about every little detail when many of those details are not revealed to us in Scripture and are completely irrelevant to our Christian lives or to our fundamental beliefs. :rolleyes:

A little off topic here but there are clearly a lot of details believers assume to be true and atheists always wondered how they came up with their conclusions and hence the questions. Even you admit that the details are not revealed in scripture but others clearly feels different and that they know. I have a big problem with the inconsistency between believers.

Bduffman · 22-01-2009 10:48AM

PDN wrote: »

No, I think it more unusual that anyone would expect people with diverse opinions to agree about every little detail when many of those details are not revealed to us in Scripture and are completely irrelevant to our Christian lives or to our fundamental beliefs. :rolleyes:

OK - thats clear then. The resurrection of the body has now been added to transubstantiation as things that are not fundamental to christian belief.

PDN wrote: »

You must long for the good old days when no-one was allowed to think for themselves.

What, you mean when the catholic church was in control of the country?

Goduznt Xzst · 22-01-2009 10:54AM

PDN wrote: »

Christian belief, and the teaching of the Bible, is most certainly that we will all experience a bodily resurrection.

Where exactly will these bodies be resurrected to? I mean will Earth be turned back into an Eden and all faithful Christians resurrected back to it?

PDN · 22-01-2009 12:11PM

Bduffman wrote: »

OK - thats clear then. The resurrection of the body has now been added to transubstantiation as things that are not fundamental to christian belief.

Stop playing silly buggers and address what I actually posted instead of trying to twist my words. The resurrection is clearly revealed in Scripture and is fundamental to Christianity. The details of what our resurrected bodies will be like is not revealed and is not fundamental.

What, you mean when the catholic church was in control of the country?

I was thinking more of when they were in control of Europe and set the Inquisition on you if you didn't agree with every detail of what you were told to believe.

PDN · 22-01-2009 12:14PM

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Where exactly will these bodies be resurrected to? I mean will Earth be turned back into an Eden and all faithful Christians resurrected back to it?

As I understand Scripture the earth will be destroyed by fire, and God will create a new earth where all the redeemed will dwell forever in God's presence.

kelly1 · 22-01-2009 12:45PM

faceman wrote: »

Why would we have a body?

Why not? We're human, not angels. Jesus still has a body. He ascended to the Father didn't He? Why should we be any different?

faceman wrote: »

Christ's resurrection on earth was of the body.
our resurrection to heaven will be of the soul.on of Christ on earth was symbolic.

How can there be ressurection of the soul? The soul never dies so how can it come back to life?

When we die, our body lies in the grave/bottom of the sea/cremated etc but our soul goes immediately to judgment and from there to hell/purgatory/heaven. We don't wait around in some holding area till the end of the world. What would be the point of that?

Goduznt Xzst · 22-01-2009 01:21PM

PDN wrote: »

As I understand Scripture the earth will be destroyed by fire, and God will create a new earth where all the redeemed will dwell forever in God's presence.

See this is what I don't understand about the physical resurrection of humans to a new earth. First, I'm guessing there'll be animals again right, and that they'll die due to their lack of a soul. So is it a result of sin that we care for the wellbeing of animals? Isn't it stated at Revelation 21:4 "There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away"

I know people who care and love animals like they where people, and they genuinely feel remorse and pain when they die. How is God going to remove this? Will humans just not care for animals anymore?

Also, in regards to pain. Humans will still need to feel it, I mean even if all the animals are made tame (side question but will animals still kill each other? If not I mean what life will there be for a cheetah or shark whos existence has evolved to kill), you could still cut yourself on a rock or a piece of coral, or will the perfect human body just heal instantly without the need for pain? Won't this lead to a rather numb existence?

Further, won't humans still have free will like Adam and Eve did. Won't this open up the chance for someone to sin again. What will happen to an individual who chooses to sin?

spacecoyote · 22-01-2009 01:51PM

I have to say, I do find it difficult to post a thread looking for opinions on the various religion related threads on here.

I post a thread asking a question on Christians beliefs on this forum and the Christians get abused for writing their beliefs by the Atheists.

Someone posted a thread on the A&A Forum asking Atheists about their beliefs and the Atheists get abused for writing their beliefs by the Christians.

As the great philosopher Darius once said "can you feel the love in this room?"

Bduffman · 22-01-2009 02:42PM

PDN wrote: »

Stop playing silly buggers and address what I actually posted instead of trying to twist my words. The resurrection is clearly revealed in Scripture and is fundamental to Christianity. The details of what our resurrected bodies will be like is not revealed and is not fundamental.

I'm not playing silly buggers at all. You have stated that the resurrection is fundamental to christianity. But many christians (including one poster on this thread) could not possibly believe in the resurrection of our bodies as they only believe it to be symbolic. That I see as a major difference between christians with respect to a fundamental christian belief.

PDN wrote: »

I was thinking more of when they were in control of Europe and set the Inquisition on you if you didn't agree with every detail of what you were told to believe.

Yeah - that was pretty bad too.

Bduffman · 22-01-2009 02:46PM

spacecoyote wrote: »

I have to say, I do find it difficult to post a thread looking for opinions on the various religion related threads on here.

I post a thread asking a question on Christians beliefs on this forum and the Christians get abused for writing their beliefs by the Atheists.

Someone posted a thread on the A&A Forum asking Atheists about their beliefs and the Atheists get abused for writing their beliefs by the Christians.

As the great philosopher Darius once said "can you feel the love in this room?"

Whos getting abused? If I called someone an idiot for believing such things then that would be abuse. Pointing out anomalies & asking questions is hardly abuse.

faceman · 22-01-2009 05:04PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Why not? We're human, not angels. Jesus still has a body. He ascended to the Father didn't He? Why should we be any different?

Because we aren't Jesus.

wrote:

How can there be ressurection of the soul? The soul never dies so how can it come back to life?

I think you are splitting heirs here.

wrote:

When we die, our body lies in the grave/bottom of the sea/cremated etc but our soul goes immediately to judgment and from there to hell/purgatory/heaven. We don't wait around in some holding area till the end of the world. What would be the point of that?

That depends on which pieces of the bible you read. Some passages suggest that we are judged when we die. Others suggest that we are all judged on judgement day, or the second coming.
That

PDN · 22-01-2009 05:50PM

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

See this is what I don't understand about the physical resurrection of humans to a new earth. First, I'm guessing there'll be animals again right, and that they'll die due to their lack of a soul. So is it a result of sin that we care for the wellbeing of animals? Isn't it stated at Revelation 21:4 "There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away"

I don't think the Bible tells us whether there will be animals or not. Nor does the Bible ever claim that animals lack a soul. I fail to see any logical connection between that issue and caring for animals' wellbeing.

I know people who care and love animals like they where people, and they genuinely feel remorse and pain when they die. How is God going to remove this? Will humans just not care for animals anymore?

I see a big difference between caring for animals' wellbeing (not wishing to cause undue pain or suffering to any creature) and loving them like they are people. Hopefully, in eternity, we will have our priorities more in order.

Further, won't humans still have free will like Adam and Eve did. Won't this open up the chance for someone to sin again. What will happen to an individual who chooses to sin?

There are areas in life where we make a free choice to do something, but then that choice no longer exists. It's not a great example, but if a blind man chooses to make himself blind by gouging his own eyes out then he no longer has the choice whether to see or not - but no outside force is constraining his free will.

The way I see it, I exercise my free will in order to believe on Jesus Christ and to remain His disciple until my dying day. Then, in eternity, I will no longer have the ability to sin - not because somebody else is interfering with my free will, but as a condequence of the choices I made by my free will.

CS Lewis, in one of his Science Fiction novels, speculated that Adam & Eve, if they had resisted temptation, would not have continually faced such tests all their lives. Instead, having exercised their free will to choose righteousness, the temptation would then have been removed.

robindch · 22-01-2009 08:41PM

PDN wrote: »

Nor does the Bible ever claim that animals lack a soul.

Nor indeed, does the bible ever claim they do.

I'm inclined to think that the question of whether or not an animal had a soul simply didn't occur to OT believers, who lacked the Platonic concept of a soul to start with. While NT believers would, most likely, have assumed the human Cartesian duality that's implicit within Platonic philosophy and therefore, almost certainly believed that animals are likewise soulless.

PDN wrote: »

I fail to see any logical connection between that issue and caring for animals' wellbeing.

There do seem to be quite a few christians out there who exegesise the "dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds in the sky etc, etc" bit of Genesis to mean that animals can be treated in whatever way one wishes. I don't believe that this viewpoint is a majority one, but it does seem to be fairly common.

BrianCalgary · 22-01-2009 10:11PM

robindch wrote: »

There do seem to be quite a few christians out there who exegesise the "dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds in the sky etc, etc" bit of Genesis to mean that animals can be treated in whatever way one wishes. I don't believe that this viewpoint is a majority one, but it does seem to be fairly common.

Interesting robin because I know of no Christian who would hold to this view. The Christians that I know understand that it is our job to care for Gods creation and not to destroy it.

PDN · 22-01-2009 10:35PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Interesting robin because I know of no Christian who would hold to this view. The Christians that I know understand that it is our job to care for Gods creation and not to destroy it.

I've heard journalists quote such people, but I've never actually met a Christian who advocated the kind of view Robin described.

robindch · 22-01-2009 11:24PM

PDN wrote: »

I've heard journalists quote such people, but I've never actually met a Christian who advocated the kind of view Robin described.

Your experience of christians must be rather narrow -- of the fundamentalist christians I know, I'd imagine that around one quarter seem to hold this view (or think that they do).

BrianCalgary · 22-01-2009 11:26PM

robindch wrote: »

Your experience of christians must be rather narrow -- of the fundamentalist christians I know, I'd imagine that around one quarter seem to hold this view (or think that they do).

What a statement. :pac: About a man who travels the world speaking to Christians of many different nationalities and you say his experience is narrow?

robindch · 22-01-2009 11:28PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The Christians that I know understand that it is our job to care for Gods creation and not to destroy it.

Out of interest -- if you don't accept the work of most of the world's biologists and most of the world's climatologists, how can you establish if you're caring for the world correctly?

Fanny Cradock · 23-01-2009 12:10AM

robindch wrote: »

Your experience of christians must be rather narrow -- of the fundamentalist christians I know, I'd imagine that around one quarter seem to hold this view (or think that they do).

I've certainly never encountered this notion - quite the opposite, in fact. Odd that!

Maybe you are hanging around with the wrong fundamentalists?

Húrin · 23-01-2009 12:51AM

kelly1 wrote: »

How can there be ressurection of the soul? The soul never dies so how can it come back to life?

No, souls are not naturally immortal. Eternal life is a gift of God, not common grace.

CodeMonkey wrote: »

I have a big problem with the inconsistency between believers.

Why? The Bible is complicated. It's good that people use their minds to take out all kinds of interpretations on the peripheral elements of the faith. There is very little difference on fundamentals.

robindch · 23-01-2009 12:57AM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Maybe you are hanging around with the wrong fundamentalists?

Must be

The folks I know who hold this view don't seem to treat animals and so on any differently from anybody else. To clarify, the religious people I'm referring to don't appear to think that there are any moral restraints to the human use of animals, plants, minerals etc which, they believe, were intentionally placed upon the earth for mankind to dispose of as he wished. As one would fairly conclude from a straightforward reading of the "subdue-the-earth and have dominion-over-the-birds-etc" bit of genesis. There are no connotations of guardianship or care in the straight-forward reading. btw, most, perhaps all, of the people who hold this view, in my experience, were also creationists.

Húrin · 23-01-2009 12:59AM

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

See this is what I don't understand about the physical resurrection of humans to a new earth. First, I'm guessing there'll be animals again right, and that they'll die due to their lack of a soul. So is it a result of sin that we care for the wellbeing of animals? Isn't it stated at Revelation 21:4 "There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away"

I know people who care and love animals like they where people, and they genuinely feel remorse and pain when they die. How is God going to remove this? Will humans just not care for animals anymore?

I am sure there will be animals in heaven. I think that the new earth will be quite like the old one, just without worry, war, or suffering and the universal consciousness we enjoy will be united by love of God.

Bduffman · 23-01-2009 09:09AM

So what is the christian verdict on the resurrection of the human body? Real or symbolic. Obviously its not that clear in the bible or there would be one opinion on this?

PDN · 23-01-2009 09:39AM

Bduffman wrote: »

So what is the christian verdict on the resurrection of the human body? Real or symbolic.

We have, as far as I can see, one Christian on this thread who doesn't think the resurrection will be physical.

The historic view of the Christian Church for 2000 years has been, and still is, that the resurrection will be a physical event in real bodies. The exact details of those bodies are not revealed and so that is open to speculation.

Obviously its not that clear in the bible or there would be one opinion on this?

This is the kind of half-assed reasoning that makes me wonder if you are asking genuine questions or just trolling.

Let's apply your logic to other areas:

1. There are people who believe the Holocaust never occurred. Obviously the reality of the Holocaust is not clear in history or there would be one opinion on this?

2. There are people who deny evolution. Obviously the scientific evidence is not clear or there would be one opinion on this?

3. There are people who think it is OK to have sex wiith little children. Obviously morality is not clear or there would be one opinion on this?

(Now all we need is some imbecilic moron to do a 'Rick Warren' on me and to accuse me of comparing belief in a spiritual resurrection to Holocaust denial, creationism & paedophilia. :pac: )

edanto · 23-01-2009 09:44AM

PDN wrote: »

Nobody knows. Those kinds of details are not revealed, so speculation would be pretty pointless.

PDN, what you've just said there sums up everything I believe about all kinds of speculation about said afterlife.

I know you said it in a different context, but I am interested to know why you put the "nobody knows" barrier just inside the door of heaven as opposed to where I put it, around the physical world.

PDN · 23-01-2009 09:49AM

edanto wrote: »

PDN, what you've just said there sums up everything I believe about all kinds of speculation about said afterlife.

I know you said it in a different context, but I am interested to know why you put the "nobody knows" barrier just inside the door of heaven as opposed to where I put it, around the physical world.

Because, like most Christians, I believe the Bible to be an authoritative source of revealed truth from God. Therefore, if something is clearly revealed in the Bible, I accept it. However, we can not be dogmatic about details which are not so revealed.

Bduffman · 23-01-2009 10:36AM

PDN wrote: »

We have, as far as I can see, one Christian on this thread who doesn't think the resurrection will be physical.

Just one on this thread. But I know many, many christians who do not believe in the resurrection of the body. In fact, even though many of them mumble it in mass, some do not even realise that they are supposed to believe this.

PDN wrote: »

The historic view of the Christian Church for 2000 years has been, and still is, that the resurrection will be a physical event in real bodies. The exact details of those bodies are not revealed and so that is open to speculation.
This is the kind of half-assed reasoning that makes me wonder if you are asking genuine questions or just trolling.

Not trolling at all - just pointing out that many christians do not believe what they are apparently supposed to believe. Try it yourself. Go outside your own circle & ask.

PDN wrote: »

1. There are people who believe the Holocaust never occurred. Obviously the reality of the Holocaust is not clear in history or there would be one opinion on this?

A tiny minority of bigots do not believe the holocaust happened. The vast majority of people do know it happened. This is because it was relatively recent, and is well documented in many media. Not just in one very old book.

PDN wrote: »

2. There are people who deny evolution. Obviously the scientific evidence is not clear or there would be one opinion on this?

Who are these deniers? Oh, of course - religious people.
Of course the scientific evidence is not complete - but it is clear. And there is more evidence added every year. And again its not only documented in one book (it was first put forward in one book but the evidence has been added to over the years - & we don't claim that book was written by a deity).

PDN wrote: »

3. There are people who think it is OK to have sex wiith little children. Obviously morality is not clear or there would be one opinion on this?

I think you'll find that non-paedophiles are pretty unanimous on this one.

PDN wrote: »

(Now all we need is some imbecilic moron to do a 'Rick Warren' on me and to accuse me of comparing belief in a spiritual resurrection to Holocaust denial, creationism & paedophilia. :pac: )

Considering you brought up the 'comparisons' I think thats unlikely

Genuine question from an atheist.

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