Battering rams

Faheywitane wrote: »

Well it could be said that specialized armed police units don't have
enough time to 'practice' as they are actually working and putting
skills into practice.
While physicality and fitness are important, armed
police officers don't need to TAB 30km with a 60kg load.
Armed police units and Military sf should not be compared
imo as the do completly different jobs.

As for the UZI comment, Id like to point out that the SAS weapons
were designed for the same purpose. The UZI has a single fire
mode, you don't always have to spray the room.

That point is moot now as the ERU are using the H&K MP7.

The MP5s closed bolt gives it far more accuracy, it is also much easier to double tap, but from what I have seen of the ERU I'm not even sure that point was of concern. I accept in the last 10 years they have beome a far more professional outfit. But the gung ho ethos is still there, hence the booting in doors, posing and using anti armour rounds.

All Police officers wishing to join an armed response unit should be psychologically profiled and have a high fitness standard.

Anyway, the local Superintendents office deals with any claims or queries arising from damage during searches, hope that answers your question odysseus.

Eru wrote: »

Agreed in full.

Cherrypicker, whats your background to make such statements?

I have experience with in the NITAT and with army support units in NI and training the RUCs E4A.


If posters dont want to debate the points raised and the moderator is not happy with technical details being discussed I will leave it there.

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

It is not designed to "double tap", which is the proven method for armed Police units to exercise in discharging a weapon.

That was then.



This is now.

European Convention on Human Rights.

Requires me to account for every round i discharge,

double tapping in police firearms training and operations is very much a thing of the past.

JonAnderton wrote: »

Cheers CLADA..same here..

If the first shot took him down and killed him,why did you fire two..or if two officers fire..four!

Fire..reassess..fire again if necessary..then be prepared to justify why you thought it necessary..

Sorry, know going off topic but if someone makes a statement that is incorrect, such as double taps being standard practice (implying breach of HR legislation maybe) i have to respond..i know i shouldn't, i've tried stopping i really have but it keeps dragging me back in..i need help, i know..or maybe psycho screening..or was it physio screening..my back has been at me what with all this closed bolt carrying..are open bolts lighter??..maybe i'll start anothe thread??

Ok, ok..I'll get me coat..

If someone is pointing a weapon at you double tapping is still the standard way to stop them at close quarters/DA IA and firing two rounds 1/10th of a sec apart can be fully justified, inc under the human rights legislation and ROEs.

Both rounds are fully accounted for.

Infact I know of no incident where armed Police in Ireland or the UK have fired only 1 round at an armed aggressor pointing a weapon at them at close quarters.

And double tapping is certainly not a breach of the human rights act, obviously it depends on the circumstances used.

want to... Reply... Factually incorrect...Must... Resist.. Must not go... Off topic...

Cherrypicker have you ever even worked with or trained with ERU????
Trust me that all these facts are correct.(i have seen their training first hand)

Selection course is 2 weeks long and very physically demanding... so your post about them being unfit is way off.

They have not had an UZI in a very long time now, Primary Weapon is MP7, sidearm is SIG 226 SA,

They HAVE to go to the gym every day while they are working. Every person i know in there are running marathons, ironmans etc etc, one lad just finished the toughguy competition, (their all real unfit)

But i bet this bit will really get you...... some of the lads in there used to be ARW (army ranger wing) in the Irish Defence Forces prior joining AGS.

You claim they get no tactical training and rarely fire on ranges..... ERU have their own range and tactics area and instructors so they are self sufficient.
They do tactics training for a full week every 3 weeks. They are on the range every week and actually they are fully trained in night exercises.

That doesn't include the various searches, armed interventions etc that they deploy for every week with other units such as CAB, NBCI, SDU, OCU

I have seen ERU do night entries to buildings/ night armed interventions... so again your point about them not being trained for nights is untrue.

While i agree that things were well out of hand in the 90's with them, you can not compare that time to 18 years later.
But I am glad to see that you have admitted that they have gotten very professional in last number of years.

You say other firearms officers only get to the range once a year... again your wrong.
I had 3 range shoots last year and 1 Fats training on the SIG as did most people i know.

I have never known or seen ERU practice a double tap in training with paintballs or on range in live fire.

Its drilled into every person on firearms course as everyone has said here,...
Shoot, Reassess, still threat, Shoot, Reassess, is there still a threat and so on, so it doesn't matter if you have UZI, MP7, AK47 or a spud gun... there is no double tap in AGS and there never will be.

You comparing ERU training to the training of the SAS is like us comparing CO19 training to ARW training.... there is obviously going to be no comparison because
SAS/ARW....... Special Forces Units
ERU/CO19...... Police Force Unit

I have gotten to know a lot of the lads in there and not one of them is gung ho or a poser in body armor as you say. I have found all of them to be helpful lads and very friendly.

Every unit that is very hard to get into is always going to have an air of we're better than you.. but a very small number i would think.... plus i take my hat off to anyone that goes through that training and gets into ERU, their allowed to be a small bit smug.

Thats my point over. i will discuss with you about real things that you have seen regarding ERU and armed garda, but i am not going to listen to you keep slating them and trying to back up your point with which gun is better.

Also how can you compare RUC E4A training with AGS ERU.... their totally different, the RUC had a much higher incident of Terrorism up North as did police in Uk than AGS had in south which made training for E4A, SO19 and ERU completely different

Plus E4A also had a surveillance role in their work, ERU don't, AGS have specialist units for surveillance
Thats is my last post on this matter.

**MODS feel free to edit/delete or punch me if this post just fed the troll

(My training was always double tap, first round kills person, second round kills reflex, i.e. if they have finger on trigger/ detonator etc., but that was a different time and place, Garda response is proportional, and luckily it's very rare that a shot has to fired... what people have to realise is that if a Garda fires they are automatically behind a desk for a long time while it's investigated, even if it is totally justified).

Back to real topic.
The guy kicking the door was very staged and a photographer would never be allowed near a raid.
Rapid entry is becoming very proffessional, with proper gear and training.
(But I think every unit still has a big guy...who loves to use the scud (i.e. ram).

I believe there is a compensation proceedure for damage done.
It's good to hear that there seems to be more raids, there's lots of drugs etc. out there, it needs to be got.