Holy Piracy Deterrent, Batman!

Otacon · 15-09-2009 02:39PM #1

Has anyone else read this? Quite a number of things wrong with the article [Eidos were not the developers iirc] but it is quite funny how they are fighting piracy none the less!

News Story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8256405.stm

Forum Link
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=95030

Video games developer Eidos have come up with a novel way of catching users playing pirated copies of their game.

Players using illegal copies of Batman: Arkham Asylum have found that essential control functions in the game have been disabled, rendering it unplayable.

One user complained on the Eidos forum that there was a bug in the code, only to be told by the administrator that they had "a bug in your moral code".

The PC version of the stealth action adventure goes on sale later this week.

Players attempting to use the glide function within the game will find it disabled in pirated versions, resulting in the Batman character coming to an untimely end.

The protection system came to light when a user complained on the Eidos support forum saying:

"When I...jump from one platform to another, Batman tries to open his wings again and again instead of gliding."

An Eidos community manager replied, saying the user had encountered "a hook" in the copy protection system, designed to "catch out people who try and download cracked versions of the game for free".

"It's not a bug in the game's code, it's a bug in your moral code," he added.

While Eidos did not want to spell out the mechanics of the copyright protection system, they did say that it was in place to deter hackers, although the fact the game is not yet on sale made this particular case of piracy somewhat obvious.

Hercule · 15-09-2009 02:47PM

nice move - its already been cracked since however :rolleyes:

Spear · 15-09-2009 02:49PM

Otacon wrote: »

Has anyone else read this? Quite a number of things wrong with the article [Eidos were not the developers iirc] but it is quite funny how they are fighting priacy none the less!

News Story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8256405.stm

Forum Link
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=95030

Codemasters did this a long time ago with Fade in Operation Flashpoint. Didn't work for long back then either.

GothPunk · 15-09-2009 03:29PM

Hercule wrote: »

nice move - its already been cracked since however :rolleyes:

Spear wrote: »

Codemasters did this a long time ago with Fade in Operation Flashpoint. Didn't work for long back then either.

These kind of anti-piracy measures are usually to combat day-0 piracy, they're not really meant as a long-term thing. I doubt that the publisher would complain if they worked indefinitely though. :pac:

Hercule · 15-09-2009 04:02PM

I am not sure if its sensible to deter gamers from playing your game by crippling it with weird bugs that only effect fake copies. I know a lot of people that will use pirate copies as demos b4 they buy the real thing - I know in my circumstance it could have saved me a lot of money if it had gotten an "extended demo" of Quake wars/Medal of Honour Airborne/Wolfenstein - to name but a few

still think steam is the best anit-piracy by far - pitty they are getting greedy of late

Dont be at yourself · 15-09-2009 05:03PM

Yeah, Codemasters used to do this all of the time. Very smart move, as a lot of pirates would be too thick to realise!

humanji · 15-09-2009 06:06PM

Hercule wrote: »

I am not sure if its sensible to deter gamers from playing your game by crippling it with weird bugs that only effect fake copies. I know a lot of people that will use pirate copies as demos b4 they buy the real thing - I know in my circumstance it could have saved me a lot of money if it had gotten an "extended demo" of Quake wars/Medal of Honour Airborne/Wolfenstein - to name but a few

still think steam is the best anit-piracy by far - pitty they are getting greedy of late

Well it's sensible to the publishers. They don't want you testing a game before hand. They want you buying it.

But this article is a bit late, isn't it? The game was pirated almost a month ago and all the "bugs" were cracked not long after. There were even a few cracks that fixed graphical gliches too, I think.

Overheal · 15-09-2009 09:07PM

Youre right, lets talk about Kanye West that bastard.

Gummy Panda · 15-09-2009 09:40PM

Every time i see this thread title i think its about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQwovonrVjc

Star Bingo · 16-09-2009 04:46PM

GothPunk wrote: »

These kind of anti-piracy measures are usually to combat day-0 piracy, they're not really meant as a long-term thing. I doubt that the publisher would complain if they worked indefinitely though. :pac:

ah yes, combatting day zero piracy. indefinitely - neither here nor there. fairly safe comment i can't quite decipher

.. but if it opens the possibility to the choice of abandoning physical discs altogether in favour of games on demand, can this please become more permanent?

and so it shall.

Overheal · 16-09-2009 07:04PM

well its the same way with preloaded games isnt it. Steam already does that. Basically you get 99% of the files in the days/weeks ahead of a launch, and then each user only needs to download ~1MB of an executable or code snippet that makes the game run properly. Its more a point of necessity (game launches brought the FTP servers to their knees in the past) but it is also effectively stopping 0-day piracy.

noodler · 16-09-2009 08:43PM

Hercule wrote: »

I am not sure if its sensible to deter gamers from playing your game by crippling it with weird bugs that only effect fake copies. I know a lot of people that will use pirate copies as demos b4 they buy the real thing - I know in my circumstance it could have saved me a lot of money if it had gotten an "extended demo" of Quake wars/Medal of Honour Airborne/Wolfenstein - to name but a few

still think steam is the best anit-piracy by far - pitty they are getting greedy of late

Bull**** imo. I always fell that people why type the "we pirate before we buy" argument are hoping the developer is reading the post and thinks "ooh we better not have copy protection then".

Star Bingo wrote: »

ah yes, combatting day zero piracy. indefinitely - neither here nor there. fairly safe comment i can't quite decipher

.. but if it opens the possibility to the choice of abandoning physical discs altogether in favour of games on demand, can this please become more permanent?

and so it shall.

Not sure what your point is here regarding the topic at hand.

Not looking forward to being screwed over with digital prices and a lack of competition anytime soon though.

Star Bingo · 17-09-2009 02:03AM

well it better - remove the the 'look what i've got' whilst doing the planet a favour, knocking half the price off a product which we only need the content which is a non-entity. as far as matter goes.. ironically the only part what matters - whilst restricting d/l of the purchase to one machine. but product on shelves, in the public eye.. an advertisement in itself when the posters have long been tacked over by notice of the latest green day concert, but then where even is the platinum release through the network. aside from Burnout =( quality apparently comes in quantity.. well most lines can actually handle it, was a rubbish excuse from Sony.

the success rate of this Eidos attempt to protect their disc is vague as my frustration. seems completely hit and miss so 360 is timidly dipping its toe in, only because it knows its CD system is screwed anyhow - the real piracy protection lies in 1 strict d/l to a moneyed machine from fortress server, the likelyhood of lazy suckas purchasing who would not buy the disc. so good at marketing these days, just polishing some old brass is all thats left to do. where next? games on demand. fullprice for halfprice. NOW.

i had to refrain from swearing so much getting this across to you.

TheDoc · 17-09-2009 09:38AM

There is a number of these purposeful bugs in the game.

I believe they work by yyou get to a certain point in the game, require to grapple or glide, and cant do it, stopping you progressing. This happens when you reach 30% and every incurring 10% of the game.

Great idea in fairness.

Then again, there is fixes to these bugs released daily at this stage on certain websites and I've been happily able to play the game without any restraint.

And feel free to have a sly dig at me for being a pirate" arrgg" I'm sorry but Eidos can **** of with their " bug in your moral code" these are the ***** that try blackmail and bribe their games top scores in magazines and websites....get a ****ing grip

Dont be at yourself · 17-09-2009 10:03AM

And feel free to have a sly dig at me for being a pirate" arrgg" I'm sorry but Eidos can **** of with their " bug in your moral code" these are the ***** that try blackmail and bribe their games top scores in magazines and websites....get a ****ing gripp

That is ridiculous reasoning. There is no justification for your piracy.

Gummy Panda · 17-09-2009 10:04AM

TheDoc wrote: »

And feel free to have a sly dig at me for being a pirate" arrgg" I'm sorry but Eidos can **** of with their " bug in your moral code" these are the ***** that try blackmail and bribe their games top scores in magazines and websites....get a ****ing grip

2 wrongs don't make a right.

Also it was Rocksteady who said the "bug in your moral code". Eidos are the publisher. They were the ones blackmailing for scores.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC5tp9OzXc8

the_syco · 17-09-2009 10:38AM

"When I...jump from one platform to another, Batman tries to open his wings again and again instead of gliding."

An Eidos community manager replied, saying the user had encountered "a hook" in the copy protection system, designed to "catch out people who try and download cracked versions of the game for free".

Meh. This has been fixed, or they've told people how to get around it. It is a nice idea, though. Saying that, many people will see it as a bug, and not buy the game, but meh, most people who finish the game won't buy the game anyhoo's, so that's a null point.

Nietzschean · 17-09-2009 10:42AM

Gummy Panda wrote: »

They were the ones blackmailing for scores.

was there any evidence of that ever produced? the scores in early reviews weren't any higher than the later ones...

Kernel · 19-09-2009 12:52AM

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

That is ridiculous reasoning. There is no justification for your piracy.

Here's a question. If there was no way in hell that he was actually going to buy the game/software/film/song ever, and then pirates it, he is not really affecting the bottom line of the corporation involved. So what harm would be done in that case?

Most games and even movies are **** nowadays, and overpriced, however I buy the few good games that come out that I know I will get value for money for eg. Half Life 2, GTA4, Empire:Total War (which I bought and was bugged to **** btw) and am more inclined to buy mediocre games and movies when they are at bargain prices, even if I will only get a few hours of enjoyment from them. But pay 60 quid for a piece of crap like Spore? No thanks.

Kinetic^ · 19-09-2009 01:33AM

Kernel wrote: »

Here's a question. If there was no way in hell that he was actually going to buy the game/software/film/song ever, and then pirates it, he is not really affecting the bottom line of the corporation involved. So what harm would be done in that case?

The product comes with a price. If you take it without permission for zero remuneration, it's stealing. There is no ifs ands or buts about it. It's stealing.

Kernel · 19-09-2009 01:38AM

Kinetic^ wrote: »

The product comes with a price. If you take it without permission for zero remuneration, it's stealing. There is no ifs ands or buts about it. It's stealing.

Not really, I think that the whole demonisation of piracy is ridiculous. If I tape a song from the radio and share it with my friend then that's stealing too. Technically. The propaganda comparing piracy to robbing grannies of their pension books is farcical. If the gamer is any good then buy it, that's always been the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz-grdpKVqg

TheDoc · 19-09-2009 10:12AM

Well....

I took a turn for the weird.

I was blasting through the game no problems ( a new crack is out that solves the problems) then I got an email from a gaming site where it was being sold pretty cheapish for an xbox game ( i was playing pc)

Went and bought it....

This game is that good and that enjoyable...

I'm not going to stand here and tell people to buy it, cause you can get it free and no problems anymore with it, but its the first game in a long time I felt the need to have a physical box and copy on my shelf, to call myself a proud owner.

I havn't played a game that felt so polished and looked so beautiful in a long time..

Kinetic^ · 19-09-2009 11:41AM

Kernel wrote: »

Not really, I think that the whole demonisation of piracy is ridiculous. If I tape a song from the radio and share it with my friend then that's stealing too. Technically. The propaganda comparing piracy to robbing grannies of their pension books is farcical. If the gamer is any good then buy it, that's always been the way.

Yes really. Someone (corporation or individual) has paid people to make a product for them in the hope of breaking even or shock horror, make a profit. If you take that product for nothing then you are stealing. If there's a demo out then play that and if there's not then let your wallet do the talking and don't buy the game. Whether you intended to buy that product in the first place is completely irrelevant and only some sad way of justifying to yourself that you haven't stolen anything.

noodler · 19-09-2009 12:02PM

Kernel wrote: »

Here's a question. If there was no way in hell that he was actually going to buy the game/software/film/song ever, and then pirates it, he is not really affecting the bottom line of the corporation involved. So what harm would be done in that case?

What if I stole a car I am never going to be able to afford?

L31mr0d · 19-09-2009 12:48PM

noodler wrote: »

What if I stole a car I am never going to be able to afford?

I think it's been reasoned before that if people knew they could steal cars they wanted and get away with it, that a lot of people would do it.

I mean you only have to look at the looting that takes place in a blackout regardless of country.

Our morality extends as far as this one point of reasoning "Will my actions detrimentally affect myself or anyone I care about". If the conclusion is "No it won't" most people will not have any issues with committing the action.

I can't tell you the amount of times in my job I've been asked if we have a piece of software to install on a PC for someone, when I say "No", it's usually met with "Well can't you get it for free then?", and this is in a professional environment.

Dont be at yourself · 19-09-2009 01:03PM

Here's a question. If there was no way in hell that he was actually going to buy the game/software/film/song ever, and then pirates it, he is not really affecting the bottom line of the corporation involved. So what harm would be done in that case?

- If you're using P2P, you're not just downloading it for yourself, but also uploading it to other freetards.

- While you may not be willing to buy the game at full price, who is to say you wouldn't buy the game a few months down the road if you spot it at a good price?

- By pirating a game, you're adding to the whole piracy culture. There's no social stigma to illegal downloading, and your actions would just encourage that attitude.

Most games and even movies are **** nowadays, and overpriced, however I buy the few good games that come out that I know I will get value for money for eg. Half Life 2, GTA4, Empire:Total War (which I bought and was bugged to **** btw) and am more inclined to buy mediocre games and movies when they are at bargain prices, even if I will only get a few hours of enjoyment from them. But pay 60 quid for a piece of crap like Spore? No thanks.

Presumably you're not downloading pieces of crap, though? The most-pirated games at the moment are Need for Speed, Batman, Call of Juarez etc. These games aren't crap, and most will find some enjoyment in them - perhaps not worth the full price to everybody, but that doesn't mean it's okay to steal them.

And there are plenty of legitimate demos, plenty of trailers, videos, previews, reviews and podcasts to let you check out a game before you buy it. You don't need to steal it.

Empire:Total War (which I bought and was bugged to **** btw)

Perhaps it was bugged to **** because reduced sales expectations due to rampant PC piracy resulted in a shorter development or Q&A period?

I work in the industry, and aside from the issue of freetards effectively stealing my work, it's clear to me that piracy is resulting in less resources being directed to certain projects, especially niche or innovative titles.

noodler · 19-09-2009 04:02PM

L31mr0d wrote: »

I think it's been reasoned before that if people knew they could steal cars they wanted and get away with it, that a lot of people would do it.

I mean you only have to look at the looting that takes place in a blackout regardless of country.

Our morality extends as far as this one point of reasoning "Will my actions detrimentally affect myself or anyone I care about". If the conclusion is "No it won't" most people will not have any issues with committing the action.

I can't tell you the amount of times in my job I've been asked if we have a piece of software to install on a PC for someone, when I say "No", it's usually met with "Well can't you get it for free then?", and this is in a professional environment.

Well I wasn't really making the point that people don't pirate, merely that they do not attempt to justify it so
poorly.

Its not like I an't admit to the odd album or tv series DL ever but if I do like to own certain stuff.

TheDonMan · 19-09-2009 04:31PM

Piracy is good in the way that PC games are reasonably priced these days even with retailers such as Gamestop where AA for PC is E35, not sure how expensive the console version is but i'm guessing something like at least E55? Way too expensive for a game imo.

Dont be at yourself · 19-09-2009 04:49PM

Piracy is driving up prices, not lowering them.

What's going to happen on the PC is that publishers will be forced to use services like Steam to control distribution and combat piracy. And as we've seen, Steam is often more expensive than the high-street.

TheDonMan · 19-09-2009 07:34PM

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Piracy is driving up prices, not lowering them.

What's going to happen on the PC is that publishers will be forced to use services like Steam to control distribution and combat piracy. And as we've seen, Steam is often more expensive than the high-street.

Maybe in the long term but in the short term piracy has without a doubt driven down prices. How else would you explain the difference in prices between the PC and Xbox 360 versions, do you really think the Xbox 360 version is really that much more in demand?

Kernel · 19-09-2009 10:49PM

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Piracy is driving up prices, not lowering them.

Bull****. Increasing profit margins through greed is the only thing driving up the cost of games. The industry makes more than the movie industry. Then they throw stuff like DLC and Episodes to increase the rip-off factor. It's digital ones and zeros, not a physical product like a sports car. The R&D might have cost money, but the product itself does not cost money to manufacture... since it's not real. And as I said, if I take the 1s and 0s for a test drive and decide (as in 99% of cases) that it's not even worth the space on my hard drive, and I wouldn't in a million years consider paying actual money for it, then I have done no harm to anyone at all.

There's a lot of moral high ground being taken by people here.

Kernel · 19-09-2009 10:56PM

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Perhaps it was bugged to **** because reduced sales expectations due to rampant PC piracy resulted in a shorter development or Q&A period?

And piracy is responsible for the recession too I suppose.... No, it was bugged because they released the game according to a marketing driven schedule to maximise profits and increase shareholder dividends. I even bought the Elite Units version, and paid extra for units that would have been given free with the actual finished game if not for the new trend of developer greed.

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

I work in the industry, and aside from the issue of freetards effectively stealing my work, it's clear to me that piracy is resulting in less resources being directed to certain projects, especially niche or innovative titles.

You work in the industry, hence your bias. I suppose if you were an author you wouldn't like people loaning your book to a friend, since you'd rather they bought another copy. Even if they're only going to skim through the first chapter.

Kernel · 19-09-2009 10:58PM

noodler wrote: »

What if I stole a car I am never going to be able to afford?

I don't think you understand what I've said at all. Intellectual property is a different proposition altogether.

noodler · 20-09-2009 09:34AM

Kernel wrote: »

Bull****. Increasing profit margins through greed is the only thing driving up the cost of games. The industry makes more than the movie industry. Then they throw stuff like DLC and Episodes to increase the rip-off factor. It's digital ones and zeros, not a physical product like a sports car. The R&D might have cost money, but the product itself does not cost money to manufacture... since it's not real. And as I said, if I take the 1s and 0s for a test drive and decide (as in 99% of cases) that it's not even worth the space on my hard drive, and I wouldn't in a million years consider paying actual money for it, then I have done no harm to anyone at all.

There's a lot of moral high ground being taken by people here.

The physical costs, as in the DVD or Blu Ray are minimal, obviously the main proportion of the costs involved are in the R&D.

Let me see if I understand you straight, its okay to pirate things that can be got digitally becasue you aren't stealing the 30c worth of plastic that it usually comes on disc-wise?

Kernel wrote: »

You work in the industry, hence your bias. I suppose if you were an author you wouldn't like people loaning your book to a friend, since you'd rather they bought another copy. Even if they're only going to skim through the first chapter.

Awful example, what you should have said is would the author mind printing up a few thousand copies and lending hem to potential customers to read and then hope that they decide to buy it afterwards.

the_syco · 20-09-2009 09:43PM

Kinetic^ wrote: »

If there's a demo out then play that and if there's not then let your wallet do the talking and don't buy the game.

I haven't played a demo is so flippin long, I don't remember when I last played one. Probably BF2. Why? Because, sadly enough, the game would be online several weeks before the demo comes out. Heck, it seems the industry norm to now wait a few weeks after the offical date of release before releasing a game!

=-=

Agree fully with what noodler has said, though. You said it yourself Kernel, R&D costs money. Where, apart from video game sales, would this money come from? Santa? :pac:

Kernel · 21-09-2009 02:25AM

noodler wrote: »

Awful example, what you should have said is would the author mind printing up a few thousand copies and lending hem to potential customers to read and then hope that they decide to buy it afterwards.

Wrong noodler, you give an awful example. Since the publisher isn't printing anything, it's just the same as loaning. It's 1s and 0s on a server to my hard drive, the publisher has nothing to do with it, bar the r&d (writing the book in the analogy).

I've already said that if the game is worth buying I buy. But as I've said, if I'm just going to have a look, and never intend on buying the thing in the first place, then my act of piracy is victimless and doesn't impact on the profit margins of the company. I play very few games, and the ones I play are ones I have paid for.

Kernel · 21-09-2009 02:26AM

the_syco wrote: »

Agree fully with what noodler has said, though. You said it yourself Kernel, R&D costs money. Where, apart from video game sales, would this money come from? Santa? :pac:

It comes from the people who pay for the game. But if I never intended on buying the game in the first place, then I'm doing no damage to them.

wayne040576 · 21-09-2009 07:51AM

Kernel wrote: »

It comes from the people who pay for the game. But if I never intended on buying the game in the first place, then I'm doing no damage to them.

It depends what you do with the pirated game.

Are you posting negative reviews of the game on message boards thus swaying the decisions of others who were planning to buy the game?

Are you playing multiplayer games on the company's server hogging their bandwith with all the other pirates and reducing the overall experience of those who actually paid for the game?

Are you cheeky enough to post bug reports and complaints on the game's communtiy forums potentially wasting support resources of the company?

Now these aren't directly aimed at you but you'd be suprised the number of people who pirate a game and then do all three of the above. The second point annoys me especially when I have a reduced performance on a multiplayer game I payed for because a couple of hundred thousand people are hogging the servers with pirated version.

Amalgam · 21-09-2009 08:03AM

Codemasters had a racing game on the PSX 1 that basically caused the cars to veer to one side ever so slightly..

I'd rather a social bug instead of copy protection that renders a system unstable, affects optical drives etc.

This was the case with Beyond Divinity. I was all set to buy the game, but reports of the copy protection put me right off, basically, reducing optical drives to a crawl at an OS level and generally reducing IO performance for HD drives too. No thanks.

L31mr0d · 21-09-2009 08:58AM

Kernel wrote: »

I've already said that if the game is worth buying I buy. But as I've said, if I'm just going to have a look, and never intend on buying the thing in the first place, then my act of piracy is victimless and doesn't impact on the profit margins of the company. I play very few games, and the ones I play are ones I have paid for.

Let me ask you this. If your son went on to set up an indie game company and develop a game he was proud of, and one of your friends came over to your house and said "Oh I just pirated your sons game off the internet, it's pretty good, I completed it, but I don't think I'll be buying it, oh and I've given copies of it around to all our other friends to try it out."

Are you telling me you'd have no problem with this?

Now, let me just say, I don't expect you to show your hand here (it is the internet after all :rolleyes:) but we all know how a normal person would react.

imo, it is one thing to pirate, it is another thing entirely to pirate and think you are just. That is just plain delusional.

Hercule · 21-09-2009 09:13AM

riaa--when-you-pirate-mp3s-youre-downloading-communism.gif

Kernel · 21-09-2009 02:29PM

wayne040576 wrote: »

Are you posting negative reviews of the game on message boards thus swaying the decisions of others who were planning to buy the game?

Almost never, but if there is something particularly rank in the game, then I might mention it on boards or something. Nothing like a full review or anything.

wayne040576 wrote: »

Are you playing multiplayer games on the company's server hogging their bandwith with all the other pirates and reducing the overall experience of those who actually paid for the game?

Never. Indeed, with the way keys and stuff are needed and the fact that you would be banned from xbox live, I didn't think it was possible. Any games I've played online I always bought. HL1, HL2, DoD, TF, L4D etc. etc. Got great value for money from them, except CS:S. Bought that and literally played it for an hour. Didn't like it. Still sitting in my Steam account.

wayne040576 wrote: »

Are you cheeky enough to post bug reports and complaints on the game's communtiy forums potentially wasting support resources of the company?

Nah. Don't bother reporting bugs as many others already have done so usually, plus I know the company doesn't really care.

wayne040576 wrote: »

The second point annoys me especially when I have a reduced performance on a multiplayer game I payed for because a couple of hundred thousand people are hogging the servers with pirated version.

Understandable. But as I've said, if I was to pirate or borrow a game and not bother buying it, it's because I won't be spending my limited time with it.

L31mr0d wrote:

Let me ask you this. If your son went on to set up an indie game company and develop a game he was proud of, and one of your friends came over to your house and said "Oh I just pirated your sons game off the internet, it's pretty good, I completed it, but I don't think I'll be buying it, oh and I've given copies of it around to all our other friends to try it out."

Are you telling me you'd have no problem with this?

Now, let me just say, I don't expect you to show your hand here (it is the internet after all ) but we all know how a normal person would react.

imo, it is one thing to pirate, it is another thing entirely to pirate and think you are just. That is just plain delusional.

Tbh, I would know the realities of piracy, and if my son's game was already making him bucket loads of money, I'm realistic enough not to care if someone pirated the game. As I have said, the greed of the companies is often to blame. If I can buy a cheap game on Steam or something, and I've already played it or thought it was worth the money then I'd buy it. I've loads of games from playasia and the likes which cost me a reasonable amount of money, but which I haven't gotten my money's worth. Likewise I have cheap DVDs I've added to my collection, from play.com, because they were going cheap and I wanted to add them to my collection. These are films I've not even watched, or have seen already on xvid format. But if they're decent enough with a few extras then I'll pay money for a hardcopy. Half of them are still in the shrink wrap. I honestly can't see the problem with someone downloading something which they wouldn't have bothered buying in the first place - it's not affecting sales.

Another key point, which comes into play with virtual goods, like games or programs, is that most use libraries coded by other programmers, or if they do their own, they use existing algorithms. Is the algorithm copyrighted? No, you may as well copyright the colour brown for artists. The use of the functions and libs, the use of the coding language itself is what produces the end product, but at the end of the day, it's all just digital 1s and 0s, and the pirate who would not be purchasing the game/music/film/whatever is making their own copy of this to check out. It's costing the company nothing whatsoever for this, either for the copy or for the loss in sales - so there is an ethical difference here.

wayne040576 · 21-09-2009 02:45PM

Kernel wrote: »

Another key point, which comes into play with virtual goods, like games or programs, is that most use libraries coded by other programmers, or if they do their own, they use existing algorithms. Is the algorithm copyrighted? No, you may as well copyright the colour brown for artists. The use of the functions and libs, the use of the coding language itself is what produces the end product, but at the end of the day, it's all just digital 1s and 0s, and the pirate who would not be purchasing the game/music/film/whatever is making their own copy of this to check out. It's costing the company nothing whatsoever for this, either for the copy or for the loss in sales - so there is an ethical difference here.

Actually those few examples you listed cost Developers money and it can cost A LOT in some cases.
For example Algorithms can be copyrighted and you have to pay a licence fee to the owner.

So if you use mp3s in you product, you must pay a licence to the mp3 copyright owner.

Third party libs can cost a lot of money. For example, you could buy a third party lib to help out with controls on your interface. That could set you back 1000 quid per developer. So if you have 30 developers working on the project, you're already down 30k.

Programming IDEs, third party engines etc. It all adds up.

This is before you start paying wages and rent etc

Now imagine trying to do all that as an indie developer with no publisher backing.

SeantheMan · 21-09-2009 02:56PM

Kernel wrote: »

There's a lot of moral high ground being taken by people here.

Not by you obviously as you seem content to pirate to your hearts content.

You can't pick up food, eat it...and then tell the shopkeeper...I don't want it anyways...doesnt taste nice. But if it was nice I'd have bought it.

The same with any product.

The fact is...Batman is an excellent game, well done to all those involved in making it. And ts not that pricey if you shop

Dont be at yourself · 21-09-2009 03:01PM

So if you use mp3s in you product, you must pay a licence to the mp3 copyright owner.

Third party libs can cost a lot of money. For example, you could buy a third party lib to help out with controls on your interface. That could set you back 1000 quid per developer. So if you have 30 developers working on the project, you're already down 30k.

Programming IDEs, third party engines etc. It all adds up.

This is before you start paying wages and rent etc

Now imagine trying to do all that as an indie developer with no publisher backing.

Don't be silly, all games companies are greedy money factories and can buy whatever algorithms they want. They're not laying people off or going bankrupt due partly to piracy.

wayne040576 · 21-09-2009 03:12PM

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Don't be silly, all games companies are greedy money factories and can buy whatever algorithms they want. They're not laying people off or going bankrupt due partly to piracy.

Sorry,

Guess their in-game subliminal messages finally got to me.

speedboatchase · 21-09-2009 03:12PM

All this down with capitalism nonsense is ridiculous, I worked with a guy who downloads every single game, movie, dvd, everything. He at least admits what he's doing is wrong however, rather than existing in Walter Mitty fantasy where he's sticking it to the man. I've seen a few people online now claiming they're boycotting MW2 because of the Activision CEO's recent comments on the company practises. Of course these people are now going to pirate the game like they always were, only now they've invented a justification that grants them supposed moral high ground

Batman is a great game, and is surprisingly cheap for a new release, coupled with the fact it has a really impressive demo on Xbox Live. Its only the developers second game and they absolutely deserve your euro monies for the effort they put in IMO

jonny72 · 21-09-2009 08:46PM

Kernel wrote: »

Another key point, which comes into play with virtual goods, like games or programs, is that most use libraries coded by other programmers, or if they do their own, they use existing algorithms. Is the algorithm copyrighted? No, you may as well copyright the colour brown for artists. The use of the functions and libs, the use of the coding language itself is what produces the end product, but at the end of the day, it's all just digital 1s and 0s, and the pirate who would not be purchasing the game/music/film/whatever is making their own copy of this to check out. It's costing the company nothing whatsoever for this, either for the copy or for the loss in sales - so there is an ethical difference here.

I agree with a lot of other things you say, about personal use etc, but the truth of the fact is, most people pirate stuff just because they don't want to pay for it. Piracy affects the sales, which affect the profits, which affects everything from whether the company goes under to what amount of profit they can use to produce a better game.

Your argument above is ridiculous though. If you never ever had the option to pirate games then there'd be a lot more of them on your shelf trust me. Same with the whole system, no matter how many of us delude ourselves that we 'wouldn't have bought it anyway'.

Kernel · 21-09-2009 09:20PM

wayne040576 wrote: »

Actually those few examples you listed cost Developers money and it can cost A LOT in some cases.
For example Algorithms can be copyrighted and you have to pay a licence fee to the owner.

So if you use mp3s in you product, you must pay a licence to the mp3 copyright owner.

Third party libs can cost a lot of money. For example, you could buy a third party lib to help out with controls on your interface. That could set you back 1000 quid per developer. So if you have 30 developers working on the project, you're already down 30k.

Programming IDEs, third party engines etc. It all adds up.

This is before you start paying wages and rent etc

Now imagine trying to do all that as an indie developer with no publisher backing.

True, but that just reinforces my key point that information should be free or treated differently to physical products. Like the analogy of patenting the colour brown. The algorithm is an idea, or a way to do something and shouldn't be possible to be copyrighted. There are, for example, only a finite number of ways to address memory, print text on screen, draw polygons etc. It's copyrighting of ideas and algorithms (and to a certain extent basic libraries) that kills indy developers. Non-profit guys like modders don't typically have to worry about this stuff, and they produce some excellent work. That's presuming of course that many games and programs are disassembled and checked by the capitalist dogs.

SeantheMan wrote:

You can't pick up food, eat it...and then tell the shopkeeper...I don't want it anyways...doesnt taste nice. But if it was nice I'd have bought it.

The same with any product.

Comparing digital content to food or sports cars is not a good analogy. More appropriate would be the idea of sharing art like books, movies or music with your mates. Developers are going to need to find better reasons for people to part with their hard earned cash tbh.

jonny72 wrote:

Your argument above is ridiculous though. If you never ever had the option to pirate games then there'd be a lot more of them on your shelf trust me. Same with the whole system, no matter how many of us delude ourselves that we 'wouldn't have bought it anyway'.

I disagree jonny. I only have so much disposable income I spend on games, for example. I would have played a lot less games and roms, but the amount of originals on my shelf would be the same. And the games I play frequently (and frequently is not very often to me) are all originals. It's funny that I'm the only one playing devil's advocate here when I guarantee that most people have broken copyright laws in some way or another.

Amalgam · 21-09-2009 11:30PM

Piracy reduces the chance of good games appearing, publishers will not support unusual or 'risky' game ventures, they'll just churn out something quick and quite probably predictable, instead of maybe spending more time and capital on nurturing a better product for the gamer.

Dont be at yourself · 22-09-2009 10:19AM

It's funny that I'm the only one playing devil's advocate here when I guarantee that most people have broken copyright laws in some way or another.

It's trying to justify your piracy that's the crux of the matter. There is no justification. If you pirate, at least admit you're a thief who is harming the industry, stifling the production of niche or innovative games, putting studios out of business and people out of jobs.

Don't go on a marxist tirade against IP and copywrite laws, because it's the stuff of a fight-the-power 16 year old who's seen The Motorcycle Diaries one too many times.

Holy Piracy Deterrent, Batman!

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