Time to arm the gardai

realismpol · 08-12-2009 03:17AM #1

A plainclothes garda suffered slash wounds to his face after he intervened in a shop robbery.
Officer hurt trying to stop robbery

The officer, who was on duty at the time, was passing the shop on Dublin's South Circular Road at around 7pm on Monday when he saw a man jump over the counter and threaten staff.
The garda confronted the robber and was cut on the face, before the attacker fled the scene empty handed in a small red car, thought to be a Honda Civic.

I think its time to arm the gardai. The level of violence in general in society is probably worse then its ever been and with this incident the other incident in galway a few months back where a gard was stabbed and the general increase in the amount of attack so on gaurds its time to simply arm them with at least tasers or small firearms.

I wonder what this gaurd could have done to stop this robbery. He had probably only had an esp baton and some mace as well as an anti stab vest facing off against a robber armed with a knife. The end result is predictable. He got seriously injured with probable permanent scarring on his face.

Unfortunately the only thing which instills fear amongst criminals or these types of degenerates is the sight of a gun pointed at them. Becuase this gaurd wasn't armed, he could not stop the robber dead in his tracks and also could not prevent the robbery.

If he had he been carrying a firearm he would have more then likely stopped the robbery by force or by simple commands with the threat of force. Pepper spray batons and anti stab vests are all fine for dealing with drunken disorderly youths or aggressive type personalities but you need to be carrying more to stop armed robbers who have no hestitation in attempting to seriously harm or even kill members of law enforcement. Wheither its admitted or not attacks on police are people putting up the middle finger to society and our right to live in peace in general.

I think we are heading down the road to all gaurds being armed and its about time.

koHd · 08-12-2009 03:20AM

I'm with arming them. But this guy was off duty. So that case is not an argument for it as off duty you shouldn't be carrying one anyway.

punk_one82 · 08-12-2009 03:23AM

The text clearly says he was on duty but was plain clothes..? I'm definitely with arming them. They need more than batons and mace to deal with these scumbags.

realismpol · 08-12-2009 03:27AM

koHd wrote: »

I'm with arming them. But this guy was off duty. So that case is not an argument for it as off duty you shouldn't be carrying one anyway.

Carrying of firearms is routine for offduty police officers in other countries. I don't see why a gaurd's instinct should leave him once he leaves the station to go home. Obviously this guy's didn't but unfotunately for him he ended up on the wrong side of a knife precisely because he wasn't armed.

I think we're reached a point in our society where we really need to ask ourselves wheither our policing methods and tactics (and that does include equipment) is a deterent to crime or not. If your going to reduce gardai numbers which no doubt this government will you need to do something to make up for the lack of numbers. Having firearms wheither people like it or not is the ultimate tool for police to deal effectively and quickly with armed criminals. Its not hyperbole its a fact.

In the end of the day the statement should go out if you want to attempt to take the life of a serving law enforcement officer you will lose your own. The court system is no longer a deterrent to these types of people and time has proven that the situation is only getting worse as attacks on gardai increase.

The days of fearing the local gaurd or even knowing his name are long gone. These people have zero respect (a) for themselves (B) for society (c) for gardai or any norms of laws we all follow. The consequences for them must be made clear and arming the gardai is one definite step in the right direction. Most other countries in europe and the world all have armed police. Its time we followed suit.

CiaranC · 08-12-2009 03:32AM

realismpol wrote: »

I think its time to arm the gardai. The level of violence in general in society is probably worse then its ever been

Got an actual source for this?

sdanseo · 08-12-2009 03:34AM

CiaranC wrote: »

Got an actual source for this?

We have the highest gun murder rate in Europe according to a recent newspaper article, source is this forum (somewhere :O )

As someone looking to join and on the way into the reserves, I'd be happy with with being armed as well although I wouldn't push for it, not with the spray coming in. I would strongly be in favour of baton/cuffs/spray being legal to carry off duty provided you can account for any use of them in a situation described above. While it would be a lot of reponsibility granted, I think the safety of members has to come first and even if it takes a gun to do that then so be it.

koHd · 08-12-2009 03:35AM

punk_one82 wrote: »

The text clearly says he was on duty but was plain clothes..? I'm definitely with arming them. They need more than batons and mace to deal with these scumbags.

Ah so he was on duty. Sleepy eyes and small mobile screen equals fail.

realismpol · 08-12-2009 03:37AM

Im not for saying reservists should carry firearms that would be a little over the top. Even in new york reservists don't carry firearms. But obviously full serving members should be able to carry them. Proper checks must be put into place obviously also to ensure the mental health checks of serving officers carrying firearms, background checks and proper checks and balances put in place. Any officer involved in the use of firearms would have to be put on adminstrative leave following any incidents(shootings). This is standard procedure in most countries and i think we should follow suit.

Generally in europe where most police are armed the shootings are surprisingly low and police rarely if ever in their lifetime have to resort to using their firearms yet it is a great tool for them to have given their line of work. My uncle was in the nypd and told me he never had to use or even unholster his firearm while on duty once in his entire career.

It is a serious responsibity to carry a firearm and not one to be taken lightly but we have to be realistic and look whats going on in society. We cannot have these degenerates running amok ruining the lives of others and attempting to kill law enforcement officers just because they think they can get away with it.

CiaranC · 08-12-2009 03:38AM

sdonn wrote: »

We have the highest gun murder rate in Europe according to a recent newspaper article, source is this forum (somewhere :O )

This is a reflection of the fact that practically all our murders occur using guns (e.g. They are gangland related). We have a low actual murder rate.

We already have armed units to deal with gangland criminals.

sdanseo · 08-12-2009 03:47AM

CiaranC wrote: »

This is a reflection of the fact that practically all our murders occur using guns (e.g. They are gangland related). We have a low actual murder rate.

We already have armed units to deal with gangland criminals.

Except in |Dublin where most of this stuff happens, where all we have is an albeit high number of detectives. I wouldn't like to see the country stay like the UK where every cop is armed has an MP5/MP7. That doesnt make it about self defence it makes it about deterrent, and it doesn't work there because they have huges crime rates especially knife crime. The Irish ganland crims wont be deterred, they'll be mowed sown by each other or be **** scared of cops and the only way to make them scared of all Gardaí is to arm them all.

realismpol · 08-12-2009 03:51AM

CiaranC wrote: »

This is a reflection of the fact that practically all our murders occur using guns (e.g. They are gangland related). We have a low actual murder rate.

We already have armed units to deal with gangland criminals.

True we do but the point is they can't be everywhere at once. Gangland criminals don't resort to robbing shops and trying to stab police officers. This is a new type of violence we are seeing. The teenager who attempted to kill the gaurd by stabbing him recently wasn't a gangland criminal. The chinese man who stabbed a gaurd multiple times a few years back wasn't a gangland criminal. Gangland criminals are more smart then to be out doing that.

We're at a situation now whereby people are getting killed during robberies. Just look what happened to that shopkeeper last week and also 2 years ago. Both killed. We need to have armed gaurds on the beat to deal with this type of criminal behaviour or else we are just wiping it under the carpet and you know what happens when you sweep dust under the carpet. It grows. We can't be pc when dealing with crime because crime doesn't respect the law.

CiaranC · 08-12-2009 03:54AM

realismpol wrote: »

you know what happens when you sweep dust under the carpet. It grows.

lol, what?

Can you show why making beat garda armed would reduce crime figures?

taytothief · 08-12-2009 03:54AM

sdonn wrote: »

As someone looking to join and on the way into the reserves, I'd be happy with with being armed as well although I wouldn't push for it, .

If the patrols by the met in London aren't armed, why would we need armed patrols?

realismpol · 08-12-2009 03:56AM

taytothief wrote: »

If the patrols by the met in London aren't armed, why would we need armed patrols?

Last time i checked we lived in the republic of ireland not the u.k. Why does everyone in ireland always look to the u.k before they make a decision. Remind me why we fought the war of independence again???

Anyway most if not all the police forces europe are armed and the u.k is moving down the path to arming all of its police officers also.

CiaranC · 08-12-2009 03:59AM

realismpol wrote: »

Last time i checked we lived in the republic of ireland not the u.k. Why does everyone in ireland always look to the u.k before they make a decision. Remind me why we fought the war of independence again???

Anyway most of the rest of europe is armed and the u.k is moving down the path to arming all of its police officers also. Britain is a nanny state and their crime rate is even worse then ours so that kind of explains a lot.

Are you just making random points?

There are plenty of armed police forces in countries with higher violent crime rates, doesnt appear to be working for them.

sdanseo · 08-12-2009 04:02AM

CiaranC wrote: »

lol, what?

Can you show why making beat garda armed would reduce crime figures?

It's as much about protecting the Garda. For example in the PSNI it's a PPW officially - personal protection weapon.

realismpol · 08-12-2009 04:04AM

CiaranC wrote: »

lol, what?

Can you show why making beat garda armed would reduce crime figures?

Of course it would reduce crime figures. A criminal intending to rob a shop or post office would be very wary of robbing one if he knew there would be a chance of getting killed now wouldn't he. If he knows no gard on duty is armed except for a few specialised units located in only certain large cities he's going to take the chance. If he robs the shop, post office and an unarmed garda confronts him in uniform. Whats he going to think?

Hmmm i can put my hands up and surrender even though i am carrying a knife and he has a no weapon of note.

His other choice if the garda is armed. I can give up get arrested and be counted as another arrest statistic for law enforcement or get shot. I don't really know anyone who likes the feeling of hot lead in their chest or head. Do you?

The sight of and use of a gun deters crime. Thats why police generally in most countries carry them. If i need to explain that then... You want to know why. Ill tell you why. We as humans have a basic instinct to survive. We will do anything to survive. It is an emotion that is part of our biology and we can't make it go away with thought. Our most basic instinct is to survive. If Your planning on robbing a shop and you think there may be someone around carrying a tool which can instantly end your life if you make a wrong move and would be specifically out looking for people with your ill intentions. Answer me this?

Are you (a) more likely to rob a shop
(b) unlikely to rob the shop

CiaranC · 08-12-2009 04:10AM

realismpol wrote: »

The sight of and use of a gun deters crime.

Then why is there MORE crime in dozens and dozens of countries whose police forces carry guns than there is here?

I dont think youve thought this through.

taytothief · 08-12-2009 04:10AM

realismpol wrote: »

Last time i checked we lived in the republic of ireland not the u.k. Why does everyone in ireland always look to the u.k before they make a decision. Remind me why we fought the war of independence again???

Anyway most if not all the police forces europe are armed and the u.k is moving down the path to arming all of its police officers also.

What are you talking about?
And what has independence got to do with it?

London has a population that is larger than all of Ireland, yet they don't feel the need to be armed on patrols at the moment. They also have "terrorism" to consider. I think having an unarmed police force re-assures people; it's something that makes the gardai more accessible and less threatening to citizens. I believe it's something to applaud.

Maybe, if you feel you need a method to kill somebody, you shouldn't be a garda. Army maybe?
Also, if the met don't need to be armed but members of the gardai feel they need to be, I would question the training.

pwd · 08-12-2009 04:17AM

They have special units who are armed in Limerick. I think that is probably the best idea. Arming every guard is a bad idea I think.
I think selection should be tougher for the guards and they should be trained more.

realismpol · 08-12-2009 04:20AM

taytothief wrote: »

What are you talking about?
And what has independence got to do with it?

London has a population that is larger than all of Ireland, yet they don't feel the need to be armed on patrols at the moment. They also have "terrorism" to consider. I think having an unarmed police force re-assures people; it's something that makes the gardai more accessible and less threatening to citizens. I believe it's something to applaud.

Maybe, if you feel you need a method to kill somebody, you shouldn't be a garda. Army maybe?
Also, if the met don't need to be armed but members of the gardai feel they need to be, I would question the training.

Hmm yes i understand the logic. So again what your basically saying is because the u.k don't arm their police we shouldn't.

What about the other countries you know generally the rest of the world. Are they all wrong. Please give me a break with the 'people trust the gardai a sense of local community like'

People trust the gaurds less now then they ever did. Im not saying thats the gaurds fault its not. Its just the way society has gone. WHat do you mean less threatening to citizens?? Gaurds aren't threatening to citizens in general(could be wrong) because the majority of citizens follow the laws of the land anyway. Its not the gaurds role to be viewed as aggressors. Wheither people actually trust the gardai is their own personal issue. I do trust them. Generally gaurds don't go out each day to rob someone and possibly kill them.

Why would a citizen fear a gaurd when his/her sole role is to protect the public. So what your saying is that gaurds cannot be trusted with firearms bascially.

The point im making here is that armed police would be a deterrent against criminals not citizens. Criminals don't respect citizens or police or the law of the land. Times are changing and we need to change with the times.

The whole thread isn't about killing people. Jez. The point is gaurds need to be armed to deal with todays level of threat to them and to propely protect the public. Wheither people agree or not that gaurds should be armed you can't argue with the fact that firearms are the only tool which provide this threat deterrent to criminals because criminals are in the game to make money not to die.

taytothief · 08-12-2009 04:35AM

realismpol wrote: »

Hmm yes i understand the logic. So again what your basically saying is because the u.k don't arm their police we shouldn't.

What about the other countries you know generally the rest of the world. Are they all wrong. Please give me a break with the 'people trust the gardai a sense of local community like'

People trust the gaurds less now then they ever did. Im not saying thats the gaurds fault its not. Its just the way society has gone. WHat do you mean less threatening to citizens?? Gaurds aren't threatening to citizens in general(could be wrong) because the majority of citizens follow the laws of the land anyway. Its not the gaurds role to be viewed as aggressors. Wheither people actually trust the gardai is their own personal issue. I do trust them. Generally gaurds don't go out each day to rob someone and possibly kill them.

Why would a citizen fear a gaurd when his/her sole role is to protect the public. So what your saying is that gaurds cannot be trusted with firearms bascially.

The point im making here is that armed police would be a deterrent against criminals not citizens. Criminals don't respect citizens or police or the law of the land. Times are changing and we need to change with the times.

You mention logic but you seem to have a fierce hatred for all things foreign.
If an area (any area) that has a population fairly close to twice the population of Ireland, and also has the threat of "terrorism", but still doesn't feel the need to arm its police force, why would we?

Also, unarmed police forces include, england, ireland, new zealand, norway, off the top of my head.

Shield · 08-12-2009 04:57AM

Moderator note: koHd will not be joining us for the next 24 hours.

Back on topic please.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 08-12-2009 05:11AM

Been living in Northern Ireland the last year and a half. Have to say there is just something different about a cop walking past with a gun on their belt. Actually their belts here look like they have about fifty different ways of killing you if they felt like it. Compared to the police in Dublin I just feel as if I have to take the PSNI more seriously

I'm a law abiding citizen myself so I don't know how this would translate for actual criminals.

The example the OP made, definitely think it would have made a difference. I doubt the cop would have even had to draw the gun, just it being there would have stopped the f*cker in his tracks.

Zambia · 08-12-2009 05:17AM

Nope the Gardai already perform a decent job without the use of Firearms. Plus from the feedback on these discussions the AGS members on here are not calling for them.

I see no reason that the introduction of firearms would increase officer safety. Unless you plan to send them out alone.

I would be more in favour of spending the money on

Increasing Border security and reducing arms shipments in.
Increased Personal Protection equipment eg vests
Increased training in Control And Restraint techniques

But that's all less dramatic

the locust · 08-12-2009 10:09AM

I can see valid points but i think the pros out way the cons. Its sad but policing the world we live in may take a sidearm. My thoughts...

I think if every member got a 'ppw'/glock 9mm for example:-

- It would raise the level of training and professionalism in AGS throughout. It takes discipline which comes with handling and carrying a firearm - and professionalism is much needed in this place.

- It was also raise and enhance the authority that members are rapidly loosing and that's mentioned to me every flippin week! If a beat member is on a checkpoint or beat with a glock on his hip - bottomline - he'd get a more respect walking down the street from the public in general

- It would be better for the public. From people i've spoken to, a lot are in favour of us being armed, i 've heard fewer people against it when the topic is raised. they would feel safer and that AGS are more capable of protecting them or acting on serious crime. It makes sense that the 'good guys' should have the guns and not just the baddies!

- It would deter potential criminals, and prevent crime. Some people fear the wild west and random shootings if AGS were all armed. I don't think so. Many other euro police and others as already mentioned never actually have to fire thier weapons. Its just enough that people can see its there. For criminals, I think its fairly obvious that someone is going to think twice or more carefully about pulling out a knife if he knows 'every guard is armed'

- It would mean more members are more capable and more could be deployed on thier own, increasing the effectiveness of units... You can cover a greater area with single members spread out, and a car on patrol to assist if needed.

- It would also mean greater personal safety for members. 'But ah sure you have armed units to deal with gangland crime' Urm what about the poor uniformed first responders who arrive on the scene within minutes unarmed with a pipe and some pepper spray they can do feck all but wait for back up or try be a hero? Different, safer and successful outcome if two guards well trained to use firearms turn up, they can make an arrest. Rather than they got away, again.

hk · 08-12-2009 10:31AM

What is to say that the Garda who responded last night was not armed to begin with. Most plain clothes are.

I have no real issue with arming the gards but sometimes a firearm can be more of a hindrance, much more difficult to deal with general public order issues and drunks if you constantly have to keep an eye on you firearm to ensure you are not disarmed. Further more in a lot of situations you simply wont have time to draw a firearm, a lot of these suprise situations happen so fast there wouldnt be a chance. If there is prior knowledge that something is happening armed support can be called for and is readily available in most large urban areas in Ireland

08-12-2009 10:43AM

the locust wrote: »

I can see valid points but i think the pros out way the cons. Its sad but policing the world we live in may take a sidearm. My thoughts...

I think if every member got a 'ppw'/glock 9mm for example:-

- It would raise the level of training and professionalism in AGS throughout. It takes discipline which comes with handling and carrying a firearm - and professionalism is much needed in this place.

- It was also raise and enhance the authority that members are rapidly loosing and that's mentioned to me every flippin week! If a beat member is on a checkpoint or beat with a glock on his hip - bottomline - he'd get a more respect walking down the street from the public in general

- It would be better for the public. From people i've spoken to, a lot are in favour of us being armed, i 've heard fewer people against it when the topic is raised. they would feel safer and that AGS are more capable of protecting them or acting on serious crime. It makes sense that the 'good guys' should have the guns and not just the baddies!

- It would deter potential criminals, and prevent crime. Some people fear the wild west and random shootings if AGS were all armed. I don't think so. Many other euro police and others as already mentioned never actually have to fire thier weapons. Its just enough that people can see its there. For criminals, I think its fairly obvious that someone is going to think twice or more carefully about pulling out a knife if he knows 'every guard is armed'

- It would mean more members are more capable and more could be deployed on thier own, increasing the effectiveness of units... You can cover a greater area with single members spread out, and a car on patrol to assist if needed.

- It would also mean greater personal safety for members. 'But ah sure you have armed units to deal with gangland crime' Urm what about the poor uniformed first responders who arrive on the scene within minutes unarmed with a pipe and some pepper spray they can do feck all but wait for back up or try be a hero? Different, safer and successful outcome if two guards well trained to use firearms turn up, they can make an arrest. Rather than they got away, again.

Being trained in using a firearm will not make a member any more or less professional, you either are or are not.

You earn respect from people in your dealings with them, not because you are carrying a firearm. And that will never change.

People say we should be armed every time there is a gun murder. Having an armed police force will not stop a murder from happening. Intercepting somebody on the way to carry out a shooting will. There have been numerous examples of this in the media and more that have not.

Having a gun is no reason for having single crew cars. Having a second member with you is ideal. See this blog. And you just have to watch episodes of "Cops" to see how many single crew cars respond to standard calls.

tracy3135 · 08-12-2009 10:58AM

I am a member of the force and every day I go to work I face the prospect of being maimed or killed and leaving behind my three beautiful children to go through life without me. I want to state that I am not really in favour of being armed with a gun for a number of reasons which I will outline.

Firstly in our job every time you take an action against a member of the public whether it be restraining them, placing them in the cell while they are drunk, even just driving with them in the patrol car, you are leaving yourself open to civil action should something go wrong. As a result you are slow to react even if it is to defend yourself!!! I would imagine that this plain clothes garda WAS armed but to justify shooting a man who is only armed with a knife would put this man's career and freedom in question. He would need to show evidence before the Ombudsman that he felt this man had intentions of wounding or killing another with that knife. Unfortunately it was probably not until he was slashed himself that he felt the level of threat would be justified.

Secondly, if every garda had a firearm, then every criminal armed with a firearm would feel the need to shoot Gardai in order to evade arrest. There are rarely shoot outs with a member of the force and it is often that a Garda manages to arrest an armed criminal without the need for a shoot out. I would definitely feel more threatened stopping a car with suspects of board it if I were armed as immediately I would be seen as a huge threat and more Gardai would loose their lives. We have recently been armed with pepper spray which is an effective tool in the arrest of violent persons most of the time and I feel it will benefit the force greatly.

My final point is that with daily threats to our lives and to our families lives, who feels that we should take ANOTHER hit in this budget. Certainly not I. For I don't think there is anyone out there, even the recently unemployed amongst you who would take the level of violent we are exposed to on a daily basis for the pathetic wage we get. And are we being rewarded or even paid a fair wage for this, no.

I for one must inform you all that I will stop less suspect vehicles, search less homes, apprehend less armed persons and keep myself safe for my own family's sake cause I simply am not valued enough or paid enough to take this crap.

Trojan911 · 08-12-2009 12:48PM

tracy3135 wrote: »

I am a member of the force and every day I go to work I face the prospect of being maimed or killed and leaving behind my three beautiful children to go through life without me. I want to state that I am not really in favour of being armed with a gun for a number of reasons which I will outline.

Firstly in our job every time you take an action against a member of the public whether it be restraining them, placing them in the cell while they are drunk, even just driving with them in the patrol car, you are leaving yourself open to civil action should something go wrong. As a result you are slow to react even if it is to defend yourself!!! I would imagine that this plain clothes garda WAS armed but to justify shooting a man who is only armed with a knife would put this man's career and freedom in question. He would need to show evidence before the Ombudsman that he felt this man had intentions of wounding or killing another with that knife. Unfortunately it was probably not until he was slashed himself that he felt the level of threat would be justified.

Secondly, if every garda had a firearm, then every criminal armed with a firearm would feel the need to shoot Gardai in order to evade arrest. There are rarely shoot outs with a member of the force and it is often that a Garda manages to arrest an armed criminal without the need for a shoot out. I would definitely feel more threatened stopping a car with suspects of board it if I were armed as immediately I would be seen as a huge threat and more Gardai would loose their lives. We have recently been armed with pepper spray which is an effective tool in the arrest of violent persons most of the time and I feel it will benefit the force greatly.

My final point is that with daily threats to our lives and to our families lives, who feels that we should take ANOTHER hit in this budget. Certainly not I. For I don't think there is anyone out there, even the recently unemployed amongst you who would take the level of violent we are exposed to on a daily basis for the pathetic wage we get. And are we being rewarded or even paid a fair wage for this, no.

I for one must inform you all that I will stop less suspect vehicles, search less homes, apprehend less armed persons and keep myself safe for my own family's sake cause I simply am not valued enough or paid enough to take this crap.

Then why don't you leave?

Your post doesn't add up, by the way.

___________________________________________

Op,

No to arming Gardai, is my reponse. It's not needed.

Shires · 08-12-2009 01:01PM

realismpol wrote: »

The chinese man who stabbed a gaurd multiple times a few years back wasn't a gangland criminal

Not trying to make a point, just an observation plain and simple... I was in the vicinity when this happened and there were a number of members with drawn firearms.

Time to arm the gardai

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