Anybody else p****d off with the way some instructors rise the Dan ranks?

Chris Dowling · 15-09-2009 12:12AM #1

Am I the only one who noticed how some instructors seemingly rise through the dan ranks? o.k its always happened in martial arts my first experince of this was 9 years ago when I met and instructors who's then fiance was a brown belt and then a few months later was a 2nd Dan hmmmmm wonder what happened there lol!
O.k this year I have seen an irish instructor who gained a 4th Dan last December in another country suddenly in an article in a magazine in may become a 6th dan, also recently in a well known martial arts magazine seen another 6th dan appear from seemingly nowhere,this person in question has never been refered to anything above a 1st Dan in all my previous asscoiation with them over the past 10 years plus at tournaments in offical capacitys or in their offical capacity for a leading martial arts federation.
I will be intresteed to hear other peoples view on this but in my oppinion as student of martial arts for 20years and who has trained hard to get my 3rd Dan is that these people must seriously feel their talents are lacking that the need to inflate their ranks to promote themselves and their clubs!

dunkamania · 15-09-2009 07:51AM

It also suggests the ranking system in question is meaningless

Black Swan · 15-09-2009 08:11AM

A past master of mine was a former Olympic competitor, has won countless sparring tournaments in several nations over decades, and is a Kukkiwon 7-dan. He is fed-up with what he calls the increasing number of undeserving zebra belts. He has gone back to only wearing his original black belt without stripes in protest.

Chris Dowling · 15-09-2009 01:05PM

It also suggests the ranking system in question is meaningless

Yup I agree, it has me so pissed off seriously tempted to name and shame the people involved! grrrrrrrrrrrrr

grizzly · 15-09-2009 01:19PM

I individual isn't really at fault – but it's a poor reflection of how the organisation in question is been run. Over time they will have a reputation of giving easy grades and this will push away the people who worked hard for a grade – that is viewed as sub par.

_oveless · 15-09-2009 06:36PM

After Sandan grades are usually awarded and not earned via a grading.

Furious-Dave · 15-09-2009 07:34PM

This all depends on what style and organization you're talking about. Most Kyokushin organizations for example do "double grades". But this is only when the person grading has demonstrated that they are already above the grade they are supposed to be going for. A lot of people also do gradings up to Godan and beyond.

JohnMc1 · 15-09-2009 07:35PM

_oveless wrote: »

After Sandan grades are usually awarded and not earned via a grading.

Most degrees you still have to test for. I think after 5th degree they are more honorary just for being with the style and organiztation for so long.

j walsh · 15-09-2009 10:06PM

I think every county can boast some very undeserving high black belt grades, both the person with these grades and the person grading them are at fault because both know it's wrong , all about the money (very sad and fustrating indeed Chris) this ruins martial arts.

Deisekickboxing · 18-09-2009 01:11PM

j walsh wrote: »

I think every county can boast some very undeserving high black belt grades, both the person with these grades and the person grading them are at fault because both know it's wrong , all about the money (very sad and fustrating indeed Chris) this ruins martial arts.

very true indeed!
theres a prime example of this carry on in our town where an idiot recently christened himself with a 7th or was it a 17thdan
well either way it does'nt matter its meaningless...
i would grade a person like this with a new type of belt!!!
yes
(one round the back of the ear);)

Chris Dowling · 18-09-2009 01:20PM

Oh I think I know the leprachuan in question there lol!

WTKDNo1 · 16-10-2009 02:11PM

Recently, I was told that Hee Hil Cho Taekwondo in Ireland, 4th dans graded to 5th dans after only been 4th dans for ,less than 3 years, How is this aloud to happen and does not say much about standard in there taekwondo

and alldo they are far from offical, this should not happen

M

007phoenix · 17-10-2009 05:54PM

Yeah i know of a little fat dude that must grade himself too, he has a tournament with his own clubs and winners are munster wtf champs go figure? Mc Dojo`s its all about the money

zenboy · 18-10-2009 02:23PM

about he hee il cho association or AIMAA as its called.They use the same time between dan grades as the itf.If they did use a shorter time frame it wouldnt make any difference anyway since grade is unrelated to performance .I used to be with AIMAA and the few lads they have over 4 th degree are very capable at all aspects of tkd but obviously it isnt gen choi tkd

18-10-2009 02:55PM

I used to be obsessed with grading. Now I think it's nonsense and will be returning to training primarily just for my own knowledge.

No interest in grades in the slightest.

Horioni · 07-12-2009 02:00PM

Ive never worried about becoming a Black Belt as alot of the "Black Belts" ive met on my travels think that once they have gotten the Fabled Black that they have "arrived" and that is when they stop Training and become Fat, Slow and Full of Hot Air.
Always train with the mentality of a White Belt, this will keep you Fresh and Happy to be on the journey that is Martial Arts, and not waiting to Arrive!!

As Bruce Lee once said, Belts are only good for holding your trousers up.

JohnMc1 · 07-12-2009 02:05PM

I always wanted to become a Black Belt but keep training to earn my various degrees to become a real Master.

waterfordkick · 07-12-2009 02:56PM

I don't know any 7th dan black belts in the Deise or any munster wtf champions either. Could some of ye fill me in on the gaps. Don't know how I could have missed all these while teaching over the last 30+ years !

freebird23 · 07-12-2009 07:22PM

Horioni wrote: »

Ive never worried about becoming a Black Belt as alot of the "Black Belts" ive met on my travels think that once they have gotten the Fabled Black that they have "arrived" and that is when they stop Training and become Fat, Slow and Full of Hot Air.
Always train with the mentality of a White Belt, this will keep you Fresh and Happy to be on the journey that is Martial Arts, and not waiting to Arrive!!

As Bruce Lee once said, Belts are only good for holding your trousers up.

very well said i agree, now i must go order another black belt and oficial looking certificat online;)

freebird23 · 07-12-2009 07:26PM

waterford kick do you teach in the southeast? is it TKD or kickboxing

waterfordkick · 07-12-2009 09:44PM

Yeah Freebird I teach kickboxing. Have been for a long time. I really love the sport. I love to see kids that have grown up in the club and for them to achieve their black belt. The pride in the parents, its great ! I know some people don't like the grading systems in some ma, but for the kids I think its great and keeps them interested and keeping them out of trouble

Pride Fighter · 08-12-2009 04:30AM

Horioni wrote: »

and Happy to be on the journey that is Martial Arts, and not waiting to Arrive!!

As Bruce Lee once said, Belts are only good for holding your trousers up.

That was Mr. Miyagi in the karate kid.

Martin25 · 08-12-2009 04:39PM

We saw some dude writing that he had a 13th Dan and had to laugh as we know some guys who introduced his system to the country who have 4th or 5th and they are tough kick ass people.
Some call the 17th - 19th Dans, "DESPERATE DANS" !

Deisekickboxing · 08-12-2009 05:54PM

good one martin

desperate dans........lol..
seems we have a real Little Desperate Dan down here in the deise
is there even such a thing as a 7th dan kickboxing stripe or a granddad master?...

Martin25 · 09-12-2009 12:27PM

Clarifies the difference between fighters and martial artists;

"Fighters are people who compete in real fights,their sparing gear is not composed of 1/4 inch plastic because they actually hit one another. They know their techniques work because they test them every day in the gym/ring... through beatings they become mentally and physically tough"

"People in MMA generally call themselves fighters and people who talk about fighting call themselves martial artists"

Furious-Dave · 09-12-2009 01:29PM

Martin25 wrote: »

Clarifies the difference between fighters and martial artists;

"Fighters are people who compete in real fights,their sparing gear is not composed of 1/4 inch plastic because they actually hit one another. They know their techniques work because they test them every day in the gym/ring... through beatings they become mentally and physically tough"

"People in MMA generally call themselves fighters and people who talk about fighting call themselves martial artists"

I prefer to use 3 categories: Fighters (combat sports, realistic self protection etc), Artists (those who train for health, fun, fitness and the perfection of their style) and Martial Artists (those who train in traditional based systems but who train realistically and can actually fight - Kyokushin, Judo, Filipino/Indo systems etc).

Deisekickboxing · 09-12-2009 07:53PM

Martin25 wrote: »

Clarifies the difference between fighters and martial artists;

"People in MMA generally call themselves fighters and people who talk about fighting call themselves martial artists"

id have to say a lot of mma people would have some martial arts backround before jumping into the coup...

freebird23 · 09-12-2009 08:13PM

waterfordkick wrote: »

Yeah Freebird I teach kickboxing. Have been for a long time. I really love the sport. I love to see kids that have grown up in the club and for them to achieve their black belt. The pride in the parents, its great ! I know some people don't like the grading systems in some ma, but for the kids I think its great and keeps them interested and keeping them out of trouble

i also think that a grading system is important as i think it keeps the younger ones interested, working towards there goals as such. i have a son doing it at the moment and when he grades he loves to ware his new belt. i also have a keen intrest.

there are so many distractions out there for kids now that they need to have something that there intrested in, keep them out of trouble and such.

just-joe · 09-12-2009 09:32PM

I think Bruce Lee and Mr.Miyagi both said that... kinda ironic though cos from watchin karate/TKD people (I don't know about other martial arts... except for judo where it does come in handy sometimes) it seems they don't even need the belt to hold up their trousers, so the sole purpose is just one big ego-trip...

So who really cares what belt you have, with people being handed higher grades for nothing, it holds less and less value..

And I've also heard it said many times, that grading systems are a western thing anyway, invented to make money and keep people enthusiastic about coming back to class. As far as I'm aware all judoka in Japan just wear a white belt until they go to compete and then they're just handed a black belt..

cletus · 09-12-2009 09:41PM

just-joe wrote: »

As far as I'm aware all judoka in Japan just wear a white belt until they go to compete and then they're just handed a black belt..

I'm not sure if thats true, in fact I think Jigoro Kano actually created the belt system (although I could be wrong)

Doug Cartel · 09-12-2009 10:36PM

cletus wrote: »

I'm not sure if thats true, in fact I think Jigoro Kano actually created the belt system (although I could be wrong)

Yeah he invented the belt system as a way to be able to teach classes to people with mixed abilities and keep track of who should know what. (He borrowed it from the ranking system for the boardgame Go actually). The traditional system, as used in Japan, is white, brown, black. Beginner, intermediate, and advanced.

deegs · 11-12-2009 01:18PM

Kendo has a very tough and therefore respected grading system. For instance, the highest grade is 8th dan and only about less than 1% pass rate. You also need to be 47 or older and have been a 7th dan for 7 years.

ScottStorm · 12-12-2009 11:10AM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Yeah he invented the belt system as a way to be able to teach classes to people with mixed abilities and keep track of who should know what. (He borrowed it from the ranking system for the boardgame Go actually). The traditional system, as used in Japan, is white, brown, black. Beginner, intermediate, and advanced.

If were talkin real traditional I believe it was always white until it got really old and dirty, hence a brown belt being more experienced than a white and a black being more experienced than a brown.

but I may be having a QI moment were I have said a commonly held opinion that is entirely incorrect? If so cue buzzer and flashing lights.

Doug Cartel · 12-12-2009 01:22PM

ScottStorm wrote: »

If were talkin real traditional I believe it was always white until it got really old and dirty, hence a brown belt being more experienced than a white and a black being more experienced than a brown.

This is a made up story. Belts were not used to denote rank until Kano came along and he used white, brown black.

I'm pretty sure it only took about a year to get the black as well. (Though I'd have to check.) The black belt wasn't considered a Big Deal until the 50s or 60s in the west.

cletus · 12-12-2009 01:32PM

ScottStorm wrote: »

If were talkin real traditional I believe it was always white until it got really old and dirty, hence a brown belt being more experienced than a white and a black being more experienced than a brown.

but I may be having a QI moment were I have said a commonly held opinion that is entirely incorrect? If so cue buzzer and flashing lights.

I've had the same white belt since i was 17 (29 now), only stopped using it in july, it ain't dirty enough to look like a brown belt.

charlieogrady · 30-12-2009 04:01AM

How long should it take someone to get black belt if trainin 2 nights a week

Scootay · 30-12-2009 12:07PM

charlieogrady wrote: »

How long should it take someone to get black belt if trainin 2 nights a week

That would depend on, among other things,
a) The style
b) The number of belts before black
c) The set time between gradings
d) The availability of gradings
e) The standard required to pass a grade
f) The ability of the student

There are clubs that will grade every three months and there are clubs that grade when they feel students are ready. There are clubs where studets never fail a grade and there are clubs where students have to be good enough to earn a grade rather than just have attended the classes.

Furious-Dave · 30-12-2009 03:48PM

I was disgusted recently when I found out that one of my former Kenpo coaches got his 8th dan completely over the table...THE DINNER TABLE! And that he also got his grades since 5th dan in the same way :mad:

JohnMc1 · 30-12-2009 04:10PM

Furious-Dave wrote: »

I was disgusted recently when I found out that one of my former Kenpo coaches got his 8th dan completely over the table...THE DINNER TABLE! And that he also got his grades since 5th dan in the same way :mad:

Aren't degrees after 5th just Honorary awards just for being with a certain style for that long?

Tim_Murphy · 30-12-2009 04:19PM

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Aren't degrees after 5th just Honorary awards just for being with a certain style for that long?

In TKD, people would say that they are not but in truth they are more about time served than anything else.

truebluesac · 30-12-2009 04:22PM

in kenpo you must grade on the floor to get your 4th dan and in some assoiations your 5th as well . after that the dan grades are presented to the person every 4 to 5 years as decided by the governing body .

i first got my black belt in '91 , i got 2 more in other styles and have never progressed past fisrt dan . i have never been interested untill recently . and have never stoped training in kenpo . i will be gradeing within kenpo for the first time since '91 . but have loadsa other experience with other MA's

i left a style as the guy who was the trainer went from a 1st to a 4th in 3 years now that i think is very wrong . i was also offered a black belt in another style when i was only half way trought the belt system and laft the club , you must earn the belt that keeps them trousers up .;)

JohnMc1 · 30-12-2009 04:26PM

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

In TKD, people would say that they are not but in truth they are more about time served than anything else.

Thanks. I had a feeling it was that case.

truebluesac wrote:

i left a style as the guy who was the trainer went from a 1st to a 4th in 3 years now that i think is very wrong . i was also offered a black belt in another style when i was only half way trought the belt system and laft the club , you must earn the belt that keeps them trousers up .

Wow. That is fast. I always thought it was 2 years for your 2nd Dan, then 3 for 3rd and then 4 for 4th Dan. Atleast that's how I was told it was.

Furious-Dave · 30-12-2009 04:42PM

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Aren't degrees after 5th just Honorary awards just for being with a certain style for that long?

Ye perhaps. But from what I understand Eddie Downey, for example, earned all of his dan grades. He's now a 7th dan. I don't really see the point in honorary dan grades.

JohnMc1 · 30-12-2009 04:45PM

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Ye perhaps. But from what I understand Eddie Downey, for example, earned all of his dan grades. He's now a 7th dan. I don't really see the point in honorary dan grades.

What style is Eddie Downey? I know some styles Judo you still need to compete and earn a certain amount of points to be eligible for your Dan rankings [That starts with Blue and Brown here IIRC]

Furious-Dave · 30-12-2009 04:53PM

JohnMc1 wrote: »

What style is Eddie Downey? I know some styles Judo you still need to compete and earn a certain amount of points to be eligible for your Dan rankings [That starts with Blue and Brown here IIRC]

Eddie Downey is Kenpo. He runs the dojo down in Celbridge.

Baggio... · 30-12-2009 06:00PM

I always wondered where some Kenpoists got their 10 degree BBs from. Self awarded (AKA - Larry Tatum)?

JohnMc1 · 30-12-2009 06:27PM

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Eddie Downey is Kenpo. He runs the dojo down in Celbridge.

Thanks Furious. Kenpo rankings have always been a bit dodgy. Atleast stateside is has been.

Deisekickboxing · 30-12-2009 08:11PM

charlieogrady wrote: »

How long should it take someone to get black belt if trainin 2 nights a week

ROUND 3-5 YRS DEPENDING ON HOW OFTEN THE DOJO GRADES

tho its possible to get a wom bl style bb for cash , without doubt a real worthless accssesory to anyones wardrobe.....

Raze_them_all · 30-12-2009 09:40PM

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Ye perhaps. But from what I understand Eddie Downey, for example, earned all of his dan grades. He's now a 7th dan. I don't really see the point in honorary dan grades.

Jesus thats a name I haven't heard in years, Started MA as a kid under him! His wife's a 3rd or 4th degree too isn't she?

charlieogrady · 30-12-2009 10:07PM

There must be a way to stop people grading so quick it ruins the sport.

Furious-Dave · 30-12-2009 10:10PM

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Jesus thats a name I haven't heard in years, Started MA as a kid under him! His wife's a 3rd or 4th degree too isn't she?

Ye according to his website Martina Downey is a 3rd dan.

Baggio... wrote: »

I always wondered where some Kenpoists got their 10 degree BBs from. Self awarded (AKA - Larry Tatum)?

Tatum is a great Kenpoist but his ego is massive. I also heard that Ed Parker had some of his guys literally pick Tatum up and throw him out of his dojo.

Anybody else p****d off with the way some instructors rise the Dan ranks?

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