Triathlon Swim Training*

interested wrote: »

If you can sets of

10*100 on 1.45 coming in on 1.35
2 mins rest
5 * 200 on 3.30 coming in on 3.10
2 mins rest
3*400 on 7 coming in on 6.20

Are all three of those sets to be done in one session? Or just one of the sets with a long warm up before and cool down after?

Is that 2 mins rest after each 100m, or between the set of 10*100m and 5*200m?

Thanks.

tunney wrote: »

Its one session.

2 min rest after the 10*100m is what he meant.

Personall I think 2 minutes is way to long, 30 second, maybe a minute tops.

I'm not sure about picking your target time and working you're going times off that. I would have thought it better to do a 400m or 100m TT and work the go times off that. If you pick too aggressive a go time you'll lose form very quickly.

As interested has eluded to an IM swim set should be 4k minimum. Only one of these a week though for the average person.

Sorry ... thanks Tunney - yeah - all in one session - and 2 mins was just an example. Again - it comes down to bang for your buck or what you want from a swim session with the time you have.

And the idea of taking target times from a 400 m or 100m TT would work too. Although - maybe things are being lost in the medium here but you pace per 100 taken from 400m or 100m TT would be significantly faster than your intended pace over 3800 metre's ... unless the 400 or 100 TT is done at a pace and swim-form that you'd be confident of holding over longer distances.
Hopefully Im not further confusing things ...

I come from a swimming background and I generally look at my swimming as the fun part of the day. Ive only recently started back doing things with a bit of structure so ... apologies ... the reason i say this is that Id have better idea of my own pacing DURING a swim without the use of a clock based on feel sometimes ... so during a set Id back off since I know things a going slightly askew ... that said ... its not all about the stroke looking pretty ... especially in the open water - its often what happens under the water (as in your pull and finishing the stroke etc ..)

re: distances per session (obviously dependent on speed)
I rarely have more than an hour in the pool these days - but yeah once a week Id be in for an hour and do a 4k set ... at pace - something similar to above
Most mornings Id have 40 mins - so I do 1 set of 100's or 200's at pace .. Id also use drag belts at pace to get more from my 40 mins.

Im pretty sure Tunney has said it in the past - but the time management skills during an IM season are as important as alot of other stuff.

some good reading here. cheers lads. Im not quite doing an IM but any advice on drills is good to get, i need to vary my own a bit more

toomuchdetail wrote: »

Good post : done sprint tri's this year but swim needs a lot of work and the next question might explain why :
When you say 10*100 on 1:45 coming in on 1:35 are you saying that get your 100m in on 1:35 and take 10sec rest to bring it up to 1:45 and the off again ?

Yep - doing a set 'on' a time ... is exactly that. Your pace will hopefully give you some rest - in the example above maybe 10 seconds. Too much rest and you can reduce the time you're doing the set on.
For example - 10 * 50's f/s on 60 seconds - if you're coming in on 40 seconds then in that case 20 seconds is too much**

If you're training for a 3.8km swim at the start of an Ironman you want to be able to swim as fast as you can - whilst maintaining good stroke, breathing and keeping your HR going above a target %. Since the example was related to IM swim training Id say 10 seconds on a set of 100's is as much as you'd want - but again it depends on how the individual - if your stroke is becoming sloppy etc on 100 no. 3 of 10 then increase the time the 100's are on to ensure you're getting more rest. If you're cruising and getting more than 10 seconds rest on the time the 100's are on ... reduce the time by 5 seconds etc ...


If you're training to swim a faster 750 at a sprint event -
Then at this time of the year there's no harm doing sets of 100's at about 60% to ensure any stroke work you are doing during stroke sets is being employed ...
Getting closer to the tri its worth considering doing sets to 'sharpen' up ... 10*50's off 60 for example ... more rest between the individual 50's but faster 50's ... increased stroke rate ... and dare i say it (without opening the Triathletes kick or dont debate) increased kick frequency .. - the idea being that if you can haul for the first 300 metres of 750 and get yourself onto a good set of feet for the remainder you'll be in and out of T1 before the crowd
If you dont have the base swim work done though doing faster 50's closer to the sprint tri will help you swim fast for the first 50 or 100 or so ... but the swim fitness wont be there for the remaining 600 or so ...

toomuchdetail wrote: »

Why rest between sets ? obivously taking a running approach and going long for 1000/2000m is not recommended ?

2 mins is too long at this time of the year ... imho ... it was an example above. The reason that theres no harm taking a brief breather between sets is that it will allow you to take a sip of water and get yourself focused for the next set ... alot of pools are heated for different requirements that actually training these days i.e. they're often way too hot .. and if you're working hard there's no harm taking a sip of something between sets.

assuming you're still talking about swimming above ...
IMHO, doing long 1000 or 2000 swims in the middle of the session is a dangerous game. That said id generally do 1000 warmup ... then I get into more focused sets ... doing 1000 in the middle of your session can allow things to drift ... its not always about the distance done - if you're doing 1000 for a drill ... then why not break it up ... 5*100's, 2*200's and 2*50's ... 5 seconds rest between .. but it'll focus your mind into distance per stroke or high elbows or long full pulling under the water .. or kick to get your hips up to keep your body in flat and on top of the water ... etc ...
Im guilty of it myself ... drifting through ... thinking about work etc etc .. when its more worthwhile if Im focused on what Im doing ... that said ... do what makes you happy ... it cant all be about hard work eh

Would be interested on the drills info as I drag my legs and lack kick.
There was a good dvd with the triathlon220 mag this month that was the best tutorial I have had yet .

Careful not to over read or analyse .. is my advice ..
If you feel you lack kick you're not alone since this is a common thing in triathlon swimming that Ive seen - swimming with a wetsuit in the open water unnaturally gives you the bouyancy that brings your hips up higher and you'll get away with it ... back in the pool without a wetsuit if you're not kicking you're hips and legs are likely to sink and you'll be essentially carrying them ... think about how long it would take you to bike 40km only using one leg the triathlon wont be won or lost in the water and for alot of people spending more training time on the bike or running is more fun .. but if you want to improve your swim times - get your kick going .. it helps put your body in the right position so that you can effectively use your arms ...

One way to improve your kick (and please please please think about who else is in the lane when you do kick sets since it can disrupt things for those doing 100's on their target pace times;))... use a small kick board, think shallow, short kicks ... keeping you legs long and flex the ankles ... if you're hearing 'thump-thump-thump' then you're most likely bending your knees too much and your feet are leaving the water ... 'kick from the hip' is one expression coaches can use ... watch some youtube of Grant Hacket or the Phelps or Popov or the likes ... they're not blasting away (in the middle of the race at least) with their feet ... its all about control and putting their hips and body up on top of the water and enabling the arms to get going

Anyhow - allegedly its as easy as 1-2-3 but its a useful drill to consider - although most distance swimmers do 1-2 per arm stroke ... only in a sprint for the finish do you want to turn on the 1-2-3 six beat stuff ...



Probably waaaaaaaaaaaaay more than is useful ... apologies guys ..
enjoy the training either way ... but dont read too many books and magazines about stroke etc ...

catweazle wrote: »

Keep it coming Interested, compared to running and cycling tips it is much harder to come across dos and dont for swimming, although i will have to divide those times and distances you talk about by 4 to suit me

No worries. Its all relative to where your at and what you're hoping to do. The better your body position, the better your stroke the easier it'll be to do the times in your sets - ironically its then you'll realise that theres no silver bullet to swimming ... its a case of putting in the time and getting what you can from each session. This could be a recovery from a long bike or run ... or a new p.b ... or swimming a straight 250 metres without stopping on the wall.

Thing about swimming thats kinda hard for alot of tri-people to understand is that after a certain amount of stroke work ... theres no real silver bullet ... sure you can buy a fancy wetsuit for the summer ... but if you're only spending 60 mins a week in the pool and 8 hours on the bike and something similar running ... what % improvement can you honestly expect. The swim gets you to the bike and the bike gets you to the run ... but theres alot of people on here doing their second, third, fourth ... season of tri that are hoping to better their times (and still juggle life) - some .. small improvements ... in their stroke and a little more time in the pool could save valuable time that that might be alot harder to take of a 40km TT or 10k run...

Im no coach ... but Ive spent alot of times in pools and ow - and am more than happy to offer and opinion .. although Fri tends to be coffee day .. hence the frantic typing ... and the spelling mistakes ....

interested wrote: »

No worries. Its all relative to where your at and what you're hoping to do. The better your body position, the better your stroke the easier it'll be to do the times in your sets - ironically its then you'll realise that theres no silver bullet to swimming ... its a case of putting in the time and getting what you can from each session. This could be a recovery from a long bike or run ... or a new p.b ... or swimming a straight 250 metres without stopping on the wall.

Thing about swimming thats kinda hard for alot of tri-people to understand is that after a certain amount of stroke work ... theres no real silver bullet ... sure you can buy a fancy wetsuit for the summer ... but if you're only spending 60 mins a week in the pool and 8 hours on the bike and something similar running ... what % improvement can you honestly expect. The swim gets you to the bike and the bike gets you to the run ... but theres alot of people on here doing their second, third, fourth ... season of tri that are hoping to better their times (and still juggle life) - some .. small improvements ... in their stroke and a little more time in the pool could save valuable time that that might be alot harder to take of a 40km TT or 10k run...

Im no coach ... but Ive spent alot of times in pools and ow - and am more than happy to offer and opinion .. although Fri tends to be coffee day .. hence the frantic typing ... and the spelling mistakes ....

I was talkign to a guy about this recently - he has been at the sport 25 years and he of the complete opposite opinion - that the % gain from swimming is much less than biking or running.

I'm not sure but I can see both points.

interested wrote: »

Just to be clear Tunney - 25 years in Triathlon ? or swimming ? or both ...

I certainly respect anyones opinion .. especially if they've 25 years in any sport ... but just hoping you could elaborate a little more on above.

If your saying is opinion is that the potential % improvement in swim times is much less than the bike and run then he's probably right. But context would help to clarify where he's coming from ...

Is the opinion .. along the lines of ...
A person who already gets out of the water in the top 5% of the field in a triathlon and doesnt finish in the top 5% of the race - increasing their time / effort and training in the pool is less like to see a % gain in a triathlon ?

If so ... I agree .. since its a triathlon ...

Although if somone is finishing middle of the road in the swim and nailing the bike and run ... improving stroke and swim time might help them improve their position overall in the triathlon ...

Apologies - 25 years in tri. Runner before that.
22:30 1500m swimmer. He would have been (and still is) at the pointy end of things.

I never said i agreed with either point, I think its very personal and depends on your skill set.

Just think its very interesting to see the different points of view depending on the sport that the people came from.

I do think though that if you want to make huge swimming gains it takes hours and hours in the water - while the same run and bike gains would come with less time on the bike or on the road. In my experience with N=1

I didn't actually disagree with anyone MCOS
All I was saying was bang for buck, assuming you are a competent swimmer, swimming training will deliver less gains than bike or run for the same increase in training. Saving five minutes on a swim versus 5 on the bike or run is alot tougher to achieve.

However if you look for example at Dolans splits in Kona his easiest time win will be the swim, however for the likes of you and I, its the bike and run that will deliver more time savings.

Depends on your standard of running, biking and swimming where you will get the most bang for buck in training.

MCOS wrote: »

Hi Tunney I know that, interested I'll just clarify that the difference of opinion I gathered was that of your take on it vs the 25yrs in Tri guys Tunney knows. I was not saying Tunney disagreed with anyone. I was just saying that it was clearly solid advise coming from a good triathlete and a good swimmer that sound different so I could see how it would be difficult to decise which one one agreed with.

I think we're all cool at this stage with the differences

Far be it from me to input anything in a discussion about swimming

hey - its d'internet .. all opinions are valid

btw interested 17 mins for 1500m :eek: I can't even get my head around how people swim that fast and the guys and gals on TV make it look effortless and graceful even.

I know what you mean about graceful -
although theres a world of hurt going on under the water - every stroke under the water and the movement off the walls at that pace hurts. It lasts for less than 20 minutes though .. its not like a marathon.

re: Sub 17mins - they're not the type of times you can do regularly imho - I was lucky to have some good coaches who gave me good advice - which does translate to triathlons .. i think anyhow ... ->> you only really need to pull out the big races twice a year ... once to qualify for something the other when you're at it .. whether thats national or euro championships or an IM and Kona ... will all depend on where you're at.

I think with the increase in draft legal races the importance of the swim is growing for some of the top people ... if they miss the leading bike group because of a poor swim they're struggling - I think ( from what I heard at least) the top guys are addressing this by training with swim clubs or national squads during this time of the year.

Anyhow - I think this thread has drifted a little from the OP's original posting and subject - although entirely valid guys. Without seeing someones stroke its impossible to provide accurate input into their sets ... or sessions - and thats where a good triathlon coach comes in .. they'll stop former swimmers/runners/bikers focusing too much on the area that they can gain least from ... know any good ... really good coaches MCOS sorry ... too soon?

Very interesting thread with some great points of view and food for thought.

Out of curiosity interested, where are you based?

MCOS, glad to see your sense of humour is still there! :cool:

Thanks -Interested , some of the better opinions/advice I have seen :appreciate it :
I am not a fast swimmer and generally can get to 500m in 10mins in the pool comfortably and can keep this pace over 1500m, have done 750m in triathlone and Ballina in about 12mins but I would have done that but the current was strong so would have got that on my back .
Based on my times 100 on 1:45 would be ambitious initally , in my position would you go for more reps of 100m at slower pace or few sets with a faster pace i.e 10 set of 100m on 1:55 or 7 sets of 100m on 1:45 .
Again thanks

Thanks again , now will give it a go over the next few weeks while I am off for teh xmas.