ROG and Jonny Sexton for the Six Nations.

thomond2006 · 23-01-2010 09:09PM #1

I know we have a Six Nations thread but this subject is bound to rear its head again and I feel it deserves its own thread, given its importance to Irish rugby.

In a similar thread in the Autumn, most of us were in favour of Sexton getting the nod. In hindsight, an easy call given O'Gara was in such wayward form while Sexton was playing excellent rugby.

However ROG, as ROG has always done, has recovered his form.
Mesmeric in the double header against Perpignan, he lead from the front with his kicking from hand, distribution to the outside backs and crucially a recovered reliability in place kicking.
Against Treviso, he put runners like Earls into space. Against Northampton, he kicked his goals when Munster had their backs against the wall while his opposition number Shane Geraghty folded under the pressure.

Jonny Sexton has come back from injury and continued his dazzling form. He exudes a great confidence in himself and his running ability will be crucial when Ireland are up against stern defences. He is without a doubt a big game player, he took that dropgoal against London Irish brilliantly which should seal a home quarterfinal for Leinster.

My pick would be Jonny Sexton but in my opinion it is wonderful to have a form Ronan O'Gara back to step in when required. I think Sexton's ability to make a break and his proven defensive capabilities make him (right now) the better option.

So who should it be and why?

Be nice now...

Cosmo Kramer · 23-01-2010 09:11PM

Thomond2006 stirs the pot and stands well back...

Gotta be Sexypants for me!

sock puppet · 23-01-2010 09:16PM

I'd like to see them both start a couple of games each. I didn't see the Munster match last night but I thought Sexton was a bit of a mixed bag today. Not that he performed badly, but he made a few mistakes. And he's not really that much of a threat ball in hand.

Hyperbullet · 23-01-2010 09:21PM

I'd start ROG against France and England, with Sexton starting the rest. Both are in brilliant form as of late so its brilliant to have competition for the 10 shirt. Sexton looked sharp again tonight against LI. ROG showed the form of old against Perpignan, and wasn't bad last night either.

Can I hear knives sharpening??:D

B0X · 23-01-2010 09:22PM

Still Sexton for me, though ROG has come back very nicely and all in all this can only be great for Irish rugby.

Trotter · 23-01-2010 09:23PM

I'd have ROG back first in the pecking order, but with a conscious decision that Sexton is not far behind. A lack of gametime this 6n would be a disservice to his potential.

ROG to get the nod as things heat up, but Sexton to play a part in all games and starting against Italy and possibly Wales.

myflipflops · 23-01-2010 10:09PM

Sexton by a nose. I won't argue against whoever Kidney picks though.

What interests me more at outhalf in the 6 nations is the approach Kidney takes. Eddie O'Sullivan used to switch O'Gara and Humphreys around regularly with neither nailing down the spot for some time. O'Gara referred to it in his book as being a scenario he didn't enjoy (despite being on great terms with Humphreys). Each player was 'dropped' or substituted mid game at times when they were playing well.

Whoever Kidney picks against Italy, if he performs up to scratch, is the jersey his to lose or is it a case of switch and swap again?

phog · 23-01-2010 10:21PM

Surely it's not one or the other, it should be a combination of both, different players for different games. We're years talking about a replacement for ROG, we seem to have one that can do that so from now on it should be who offers most against a particular team or how we want a game to be played.

Looking forward to the 6Ns, Irish rugby was never so strong, 3 Irish prvinces have home QFs in their respective European Tournaments.

Pity Leinster didn't win tonight in Twickenham, it might have stood to us in the 6Ns against England.

FWIW I'd go with Sexton to start for the Italy game, give him his head.

Coriolanus · 23-01-2010 10:41PM

Jonny Hundredhoohah for me. But I'm coloured by not liking O'Garas face. Jonny you just want to pinch his cheeks and go coochy coo to. :pac:

myflipflops wrote: »

Whoever Kidney picks against Italy, if he performs up to scratch, is the jersey his to lose or is it a case of switch and swap again?

Well, last 6N, no one was guaranteed their place, no matter how well they played. I can see it going the same way this time.
Jonny to start against Italy for near certain. Overall, O'Gara will edge him out for 60% starts and about a bit more than that of total play time.

thomond2006 · 23-01-2010 11:58PM

Nevore wrote: »

Jonny Hundredhoohah for me. But I'm coloured by not liking O'Garas face. Jonny you just want to pinch his cheeks and go coochy coo to. :pac:

Wha...

Coriolanus · 24-01-2010 12:01AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Wha...

I was being whimsical.

theboss80 · 24-01-2010 12:50AM

Im wondering would it end up going down the route that Wales did the lest couple of seasons where you had Stephen Jones starting and James Hook being brought on after an hour or vice versa. They both got to play plenty of rugby. This could be how O'Gara and Sexton could be used, keeping both fresh (and happy). Up to Kidney to decide who starts which match dependind on the type of gameplan they are trying to impose.

Also id would love to see Stringer starting with Sexton, quick ball to a running 10.What do ye think???

Heres how id play them, although is obviously depends on how they play first few games, in Gatlands style of starting a player and replacing the 10 after an hour,

Italy - Start Sexton
France - Sexton
England - O'Gara
Wales - O'Gara
Scotland - Sexton

24-01-2010 12:57AM

Much of a muchness at this stage,I would take youth and I dont see why Deccie would go for O'Gara.

Looking towards the future he will be very old by the world cup and its not as if there is a massive gulf between them.

Podge_irl · 24-01-2010 01:14AM

Nevore wrote: »

Well, last 6N, no one was guaranteed their place, no matter how well they played. I can see it going the same way this time.

Four people were dropped for one game. I think people are overstating this whole competition for places thing that went on in the 6N last year. The only position that was ever really up for doubt was 12.

I'm not overly bothered who starts, they're both in good form. I'd probably side towards Sexton merely cause of his age but I'm not overly concerned. I don't see Kidney giving them 2/3 games each tbh though. Whoever starts against Italy will start all the games (except maybe Scotland) unless they perform poorly imo.

twinytwo · 24-01-2010 10:18AM

Sexton was shaky last night a times... knock on , threw a few passes to drico that could had gotten him hurt and got run over a few times( turns out he is human), id give sexton the italy/scotland games and rog the france/england/wales games with either coming on if the other isnt performing.

Risteard · 24-01-2010 10:48AM

Johnny Sexton.

Younger and better all round game which is capable of offering us more. ROG to come on in some games but Sexton as a starter.

Judgement Day · 24-01-2010 12:07PM

I go along with those saying play them both but with Sexton to start against Italy. Interestingly as ROG has been returning to better form Sexton has shown that he is not a machine and has missed some kicks. Great to have two such quality players heading into the next World Cup. I voted for ROG though as old allegiances die hard.

funky penguin · 24-01-2010 01:13PM

Don't take this the wrong way Thomond, but I think that is a terrible choice for a thread title......

Sometimes I get the feeling we think too much of Sexton VS ROG rather than Sexton and ROG. Its a healthy debate but I just hope it doesn't turn into Bluevs Red again.

Personally, it doesn't bother me who starts when. I'd be happy with either one at fly-half, they've both proven they can handle it. Just so long as their game time is properly managed and one of them doesn't spend the whole 6N on the bench.

thomond2006 · 24-01-2010 01:20PM

funky penguin wrote: »

Don't take this the wrong way Thomond, but I think that is a terrible choice for a thread title......

Sometimes I get the feeling we think too much of Sexton VS ROG rather than Sexton and ROG. Its a healthy debate but I just hope it doesn't turn into Bluevs Red again.

Personally, it doesn't bother me who starts when. I'd be happy with either one at fly-half, they've both proven they can handle it. Just so long as their game time is properly managed and one of them doesn't spend the whole 6N on the bench.

Yeah, it is actually.

Edited.

bluefinger · 24-01-2010 01:29PM

Nevore wrote: »

Jonny Hundredhoohah .

Souldn't that be hoohahhundred

Sexton all the way against Italy, would be a great statement of intent by Kidney.

thehighground · 24-01-2010 03:41PM

bluefinger wrote: »

Souldn't that be hoohahhundred

Sexton all the way against Italy, would be a great statement of intent by Kidney.

Intent of what?

Sexton has proven he has the temperament for international rugby - its a horses for courses/tactics from now on. I'd definately start him against the Italy and England (he seemed to enjoy twickers yesterday).

One thing I'd wish Sexton would do and that is keep his mouthgard in his mouth, rather than sharing it as much as he does with the rest of us.

chupacabra · 24-01-2010 05:14PM

bluefinger wrote: »

Sexton all the way against Italy, would be a great statement of intent by Kidney.

No it wouldnt. Playing sexton against France and England away would be a statement of intent, a statement that says that Sexton is now our no. 1.

Kenteach · 24-01-2010 07:41PM

If the team was to be picked tomorrow, i'd go with Sexton. You can only really attempt to justify a selection for the opening game, all this talk of one starting here, the other starting there, is nonsense at this stage of the season. Sexton is ahead on my scorecard in every aspect of OH play, thats why I'd pick him. In my opinion, its now his jersey to lose. the fact that we have an experienced, talented and returning to form quality out half to step in means that it might not take a lot for him to lose it.

Alan_007_ · 24-01-2010 07:55PM

I'd start Sexton against Scotland and Italy and give him 15 - 20 minutes at the end against England France and Wales.

Jam-Fly · 24-01-2010 08:06PM

Chopping and changing would be a terrible idea. Out-halfs play off confidence, so constantly substituting or dropping them (and let's face it, if you play one game, and don't play the next, that's considered being dropped whatever way you look it) will do no good for their game. I'd rather have a confident Sexton or a confident O'Gara rather than two semi-insecure, ruffled outhalves.

Personally, I'd select O'Gara to start with.

anonymous_joe · 25-01-2010 12:18AM

JBR wrote: »

Chopping and changing would be a terrible idea. Out-halfs play off confidence, so constantly substituting or dropping them (and let's face it, if you play one game, and don't play the next, that's considered being dropped whatever way you look it) will do no good for their game. I'd rather have a confident Sexton or a confident O'Gara rather than two semi-insecure, ruffled outhalves.

Personally, I'd select O'Gara to start with.

I dunno. Plenty of teams use multiple out-halves. We've two good ones, why not use both?

phog · 25-01-2010 07:36AM

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I dunno. Plenty of teams use multiple out-halves. We've two good ones, why not use both?

+ 1, If we had a must win game tomorrow then I'd go for ROG but looking at the 6Ns as a whole and looking forward then as I said earlier in this thread, I'd give Sexton the run against Italy and then take it from there as the 6Ns progresses.

TheGod · 25-01-2010 09:33AM

I am really not sure why this is even being discussed. Sexton is the future and in my eyes an all round better footballer than O'Gara. He has proven he has the international temperment against the world champions.

What do we gain by starting O'Gara? We know what he can do. Sexton is a better player, younger and needs more international experience so its logical to start him.

twinytwo · 25-01-2010 09:53AM

Kenteach wrote: »

If the team was to be picked tomorrow, i'd go with Sexton. You can only really attempt to justify a selection for the opening game, all this talk of one starting here, the other starting there, is nonsense at this stage of the season. Sexton is ahead on my scorecard in every aspect of OH play, thats why I'd pick him. In my opinion, its now his jersey to lose. the fact that we have an experienced, talented and returning to form quality out half to step in means that it might not take a lot for him to lose it.

Really?... I think he was average against LI. He many have landed his kicks but some of his passes were rushed and easily could have gotten Drico injured, how many times did he pass it to drico when the defender was right on top of him?. Also he got run over by forwards as badly as Rog does so they may be even as OH's and to say anything else is biased by either side. What Rog does have is 10 years experience. From what we have seen Rog has clearly upped his game back to where it should be. So now we finally have 2 quality 10's both who deserve game time and while sexton is the future Rog will still be an important part of the team come the wc

TheGod · 25-01-2010 10:11AM

twinytwo wrote: »

Really?... I think he was average against LI. He many have landed his kicks

Depends where you look. Kicked well, landed pressure drop goal and made some nice breaks.

but some of his passes were rushed and easily could have gotten Drico injured, how many times did he pass it to drico when the defender was right on top of him?

This where I have to disagree. His passes were very crisp. I thought his loop and flat pass to put Nacewa into space was sublime.

Also he got run over by forwards as badly as Rog does so they may be even as OH's and to say anything else is biased by either side

He got run over once....by Stefon Armitage. Not only that but he put enough force to slow him down to the point where he wasn't going to break through the defence. O'Gara on the otherhand gets run over even by his opposite 10s (Contepomi example springs to mind)

What Rog does have is 10 years experience.

So how about we give Sexton some experience before RWC11 then?

From what we have seen Rog has clearly upped his game back to where it should be. So now we finally have 2 quality 10's both who deserve game time and while sexton is the future Rog will still be an important part of the team come the wc

O'Gara has upped his game in his last few outings but still falls behind Sexton in regards kicking, tackling and with ball in hand. Sexton is the future, O'Gara has had bucket loads of international game time theres really no reason to start O'Gara over a younger, better player who desperately needs experience before the RWC.

big dan · 25-01-2010 10:13AM

Sexton to start against Italy to get him more game time and then if he shakes off the post injury cobwebs he should definitly start agaisnt France.

The choice is a bit tougher now as ROG has improved since the AI's and Sexton with only 2 games since returning from injury still has to get game time under his belt. But Sexton just shades it for now.

mink_man · 25-01-2010 10:13AM

either/ or, theyre both good enough and pretty equal at the moment!

stephen_n · 25-01-2010 10:36AM

Voted for Sexton but it's too close to call tbh, I'd be happy with either starting as they both seem in good form, that DG showing Sextons confidence has not suffered with the Injury and ROG trying a couple of breaks himself against Northhampton to mix things up and keep the defense guessing. All good and a very nice selection headache for Kidney but I could see this coming down to match day tactics as to which one starts!

Podge_irl · 25-01-2010 10:48AM

twinytwo wrote: »

Also he got run over by forwards as badly as Rog does

I saw him get bumped once alright, but regardless of whatever happened in the LI game, his defence is better than ROG's - that's pretty indisputable.

onlyrocknroll · 25-01-2010 10:57AM

I voted for ROG but I'm far from decisive. I think that with ROG playing as well as he is, and being the incumbent he is the best choice. However Sexton should get some game time before 2011 so he should get a start or two.
Having said that I wouldn't like a scenario where both of them are rotated each game, it would damage their confidence unnecessarily. This Six Nations should be used as an opportunity for them to slug it out for the 10 jersey, with the victor nailing it down, at least in the short term.

Podge_irl · 25-01-2010 11:09AM

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

I voted for ROG but I'm far from decisive. I think that with ROG playing as well as he is, and being the incumbent he is the best choice.

Is he though? It's far from clear.

thehighground · 25-01-2010 11:24AM

TheGod wrote: »

Depends where you look. Kicked well, landed pressure drop goal and made some nice breaks.

For the record I checked the stats for yesterday. O'Gara 80%. Sexton 33.3%! Drop goal was excellent though.

He got run over once....by Stefon Armitage. Not only that but he put enough force to slow him down to the point where he wasn't going to break through the defence. O'Gara on the otherhand gets run over even by his opposite 10s (Contepomi example springs to mind)

Does it really matter if its Delon Armitage or Jonny Wilkinson who runs the outhalf - the results are just the same. btw, Contepomi plays his international rugby and now his club rugby at centre, not 10.

So how about we give Sexton some experience before RWC11 then?

O'Gara has upped his game in his last few outings but still falls behind Sexton in regards kicking, tackling and with ball in hand. Sexton is the future, O'Gara has had bucket loads of international game time theres really no reason to start O'Gara over a younger, better player who desperately needs experience before the RWC.

I agree that Sexton needs a lot of game time, but reading your post you would think that O'Gara needed the gametime as Sexton is perfect!

thehighground · 25-01-2010 11:26AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

I saw him get bumped once alright, but regardless of whatever happened in the LI game, his defence is better than ROG's - that's pretty indisputable.

You missed the try saving tackle then that O'Gara made on Friday (when an O'leary kick was blocked down)? Boy was he quick off the mark.

Podge_irl · 25-01-2010 11:31AM

thehighground wrote: »

You missed the try saving tackle then that O'Gara made on Friday (when an O'leary kick was blocked down)? Boy was he quick off the mark.

I don't base opinions of players entirely on one incident.

thehighground · 25-01-2010 11:38AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't base opinions of players entirely on one incident.

But careers are made up of one 'incidents'. He may not be the most physical, but his speed of thought is top class. Its not the first time I've seen him do that where he has thrown himself in to stop certain trys. Not much use being the best tackler in the world if you are not in the right place at the right time.

Podge_irl · 25-01-2010 11:45AM

thehighground wrote: »

He may not be the most physical.

That's an understatement.

I've seen him make some great tackles too. I've also seen him be run over a fair few times. ROG made a try saving tackle against the Saints, and I saw Sexton fail to make one tackle against LI. Ultimately, Sexton is still the better defender - irrespective of these two incidents. He's shown this over his career.

TheGod · 25-01-2010 11:48AM

thehighground wrote: »

For the record I checked the stats for yesterday. O'Gara 80%. Sexton 33.3%! Drop goal was excellent though.

He had 3 kicks. He landed one, one hit the post and the other was wide.
Essentially he missed one more kick than O'Gara did with less opportunities up his statistics. Not really an argument there.

No offence but quoting the statistics is really petty. I could quite easily post the statistical difference over the season of which Sexton is miles ahead but I won't.

Does it really matter if its Delon Armitage or Jonny Wilkinson who runs the outhalf - the results are just the same. btw, Contepomi plays his international rugby and now his club rugby at centre, not 10.

Actually it does. If a player can get run over by a 14 stone outhalf it essentially means that any player on the pitch bar perhaps the scrumhalf is capable of running through the 10 channel. Sexton got run over by a 17stone flanker yet still managed to slow him enough to prevent him from breaking through the 10 channel. Now, seeing as Sexton has had no problem in the past defensively I would attribute this to a minor blip.
For O'Gara on the otherhand you can't argue that it is not a regular occurance.

I agree that Sexton needs a lot of game time, but reading your post you would think that O'Gara needed the gametime as Sexton is perfect!

I don't recall saying Sexton was perfect or even giving the impression that Sexton was perfect I even stated that he needed exposure. Could you point out where I gave that impression? Apologies if I did.

TheGod · 25-01-2010 11:49AM

thehighground wrote: »

But careers are made up of one 'incidents'. He may not be the most physical, but his speed of thought is top class. Its not the first time I've seen him do that where he has thrown himself in to stop certain trys. Not much use being the best tackler in the world if you are not in the right place at the right time.

A combination of one incidents is not a one incident but a regular occurance.

thehighground · 25-01-2010 11:54AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

That's an understatement.

Still managed to hand-off Mal and score a try though.

I've seen him make some great tackles too. I've also seen him be run over a fair few times. ROG made a try saving tackle against the Saints, and I saw Sexton fail to make one tackle against LI. Ultimately, Sexton is still the better defender - irrespective of these two incidents. He's shown this over his career.

His career has been very short so far - 51 games for Leinster (5 HC starts) & 2 international caps! He hasn't really been tested yet and is still a bit of an unknown quanitity and gets the benefit of that.

PhatPiggins · 25-01-2010 11:54AM

Sorry had to edit read Delon, presume you mean Steffon.

twinytwo · 25-01-2010 11:57AM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Delon Armitage was the smallest forward on the pitch if he's 17 stone I'm Hulk Hogan

I dont care who plays btw

and he is as over rated as his brother

TheGod · 25-01-2010 11:58AM

thehighground wrote: »

Still managed to hand-off Mal and score a try though.

Is that meant to be a dig because I assume the poster you replied to is a Leinster supporter? I can't really see what relevance that has to do with what we are discussing at all to be honest. Really childish.

His career has been very short so far - 51 games for Leinster (5 HC starts) & 2 international caps! He hasn't really been tested yet and is still a bit of an unknown quanitity and gets the benefit of that.

So what a perfect opportunity to test him some more.

Riskymove · 25-01-2010 12:01PM

TheGod wrote: »

I could quite easily post the statistical difference over the season of which Sexton is miles ahead but I won't.

Now, seeing as Sexton has had no problem in the past defensively I would attribute this to a minor blip.
For O'Gara on the otherhand you can't argue that it is not a regular occurance.

hmmm....

you remind me of someone!

Peter B · 25-01-2010 12:05PM

myflipflops wrote: »

What interests me more at outhalf in the 6 nations is the approach Kidney takes. Eddie O'Sullivan used to switch O'Gara and Humphreys around regularly with neither nailing down the spot for some time. O'Gara referred to it in his book as being a scenario he didn't enjoy (despite being on great terms with Humphreys). Each player was 'dropped' or substituted mid game at times when they were playing well.

This is one thing that annoys me about Rog. He gets annoyed at not being automatic first choice for his position. I remember he played some of his best rugby to date when he was getting swapped regularly with Humphries. Also it is obvious he has raised his performance when Sexton came onto the international scene.

I don't care if its a scenario he doesn't enjoy, all I care about is we get the best out of Rog. I believe he should be regularly swapped with Sexton with each player being subbed after mediocre performances and maybe not starting the next match. If anything Rog has become complacent as first choice for Ireland and Munster in the past and has let his performances drop. If we have someone snapping at his heals constantly that should help him raise his game.

So back to the thread, I would have Sexton start against Italy with the players being swapped continually similar to the Rog - Humphries situation.

Podge_irl · 25-01-2010 12:05PM

thehighground wrote: »

His career has been very short so far - 51 games for Leinster (5 HC starts) & 2 international caps! He hasn't really been tested yet and is still a bit of an unknown quanitity and gets the benefit of that.

Yes it has, but I've seen him tackle players enough to know that he's better at it than ROG.

Seriously, of all the things to get into a discussion about, this is probably the silliest. I don't mind if ROG starts as he's back in form, but Sexton is the better defender.

25-01-2010 12:05PM

Ronan's kicking could turn to muck at any time I reckon.

ROG and Jonny Sexton for the Six Nations.

Who would be your first choice number 10 for the Six Nations? 90 votes

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