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Have you submitted your own application to PIAB

  • 16-07-2010 11:21AM
    #1
    Max001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 874 ✭✭✭


    Hi

    I'm not seeking legal advice. I intend to submit my own application to PIAB following a very negative experience with a solicitor recommended by my excellent GP. I hope to use the services of a local free legal advice office. When I took initial advice, my solicitor failed to inform me that submitting an application only cost €50 approx, yet s/he indicated my legal costs (excluding medical reports etc) would amount to roughly €1,500.

    Either here or via PM I'd be very interested to hear of your experiences of dealing with PIAB directly, if you didn't use a solicitor. Or, if you started out down this route, but subsequently found that using a solicitor was essential.

    My own circumstances are that I have sustained a back injury which is not improving and there appears to be a very clear case of negligence on the part of the owner of the place where my injury accident occurred. I'm not a litigeous sort, but as I'm in constant pain and may be for some time to come, I feel some compensation is justifiable.

    Any informative comments hugely appreciated.

    Max


Comments

  • #2
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭McCrack


    By all means apply, PIAB are helpful to lay litigants. They will tell you what you need to submit with your application. I would thread cautiously unrepresented however as your symptoms are on-going and it's not as straight-forward as what are known as Special Damages would presumably be on-going in your case so whatever award PIAB give must reflect all this and in my experience PIAB awards are less than settlement or what a Judge will award down the road. Go alone, get your Authorisation (Form allowing you issue legal proceedings) and contact a solicitor then.

    €1,500 plus Vat for a solicitors Bill for a PIAB application is competitive I must say.

    Good luck with your action.


  • #3
    nuac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    You say your back is not improving - which indicates that the injury was some time ago. THere are very strict time limits regarding personal injury claims. Even if you do not want to use a solicitor for the PIAB applicaton, you should take legal advice about the various statutory time limits.


  • #4
    Max001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 874 ✭✭✭Max001


    Sincere thanks for your response McCrack.
    I'll take careful note of the points
    you made and most likely act on
    them also :)


  • #5
    Max001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 874 ✭✭✭Max001


    nuac wrote: »
    You say your back is not improving - which indicates that the injury was some time ago. THere are very strict time limits regarding personal injury claims. Even if you do not want to use a solicitor for the PIAB applicaton, you should take legal advice about the various statutory time limits.
    Injury was in Dec past. Am cognisant of the time limits.


  • #6
    dats_right
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dats_right


    Piab may advise you that you don't require a solicitor, which of course you don't, but that's not to say it's a wise move. Whilst the piab process may seem simple, it really is a potential minefield for the unwary. For example, failure to comply with section 8 of the Act may have a detrimental impact on your claim.

    Moreover one must be very careful to make sure that they have nominated the correct legal entity as the Respondent, as failure to do so may result in your claim becoming statute barred.
    This may sound simple but is far from it and can sometimes prove quite difficult.

    Finally, if one manages to navigate these obstacles and get an award, with absolutely no experience how will you assess whether the award represents adequate compensation for your injuries or not? You may end up accepting significantly less than the case is worth all because you wanted to save a couple of quid on solicitor's fees. Do yourself a favour OP instruct an experienced, professional solicitor to process your claim. The quoted fees are reasonable and will probably be money well spent. Remember your Doctor will charge €450 ish to prepare a two or three page report over and above their consultation fees and you don't hear people crib about that.


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  • #7
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    dats_right wrote: »
    Piab may advise you that you don't require a solicitor, which of course you don't, but that's not to say it's a wise move. Whilst the piab process may seem simple, it really is a potential minefield for the unwary. For example, failure to comply with section 8 of the Act may have a detrimental impact on your claim.

    Moreover one must be very careful to make sure that they have nominated the correct legal entity as the Respondent, as failure to do so may result in your claim becoming statute barred.
    This may sound simple but is far from it and can sometimes prove quite difficult.

    Finally, if one manages to navigate these obstacles and get an award, with absolutely no experience how will you assess whether the award represents adequate compensation for your injuries or not? You may end up accepting significantly less than the case is worth all because you wanted to save a couple of quid on solicitor's fees. Do yourself a favour OP instruct an experienced, professional solicitor to process your claim. The quoted fees are reasonable and will probably be money well spent. Remember your Doctor will charge €450 ish to prepare a two or three page report over and above their consultation fees and you don't hear people crib about that.

    Refer to the Book of Quantum and do what a lot of solicitors do, bluff?

    Seriously though, you raise valid points, but surely a medical professional or an actuary is actually better placed to determine what a certain injury's compensation should be? I realise it's off topic, but it's interesting, imo, a solicitor has no medical training, usually very little accounting training, why do you think they have greater insight into what an injury is "worth"? No two back injuries are the same, in my experience, so a solicitor's guess isn't worth all that much in this particular instance.


  • #8
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭McCrack


    The book of quantum is out of date by a no. of years.

    Levels of awards are based on expert opinion and that is a combination of loss adjusters, medical people, actuary, vocational rehabilitation consultants and when all these are put into the pot the legal expert (solicitor in consulation with Counsel) will determine the likely level of award. Also remember that lawyers will have seen similiar cases before them and will know what particular injuries will fetch based on that previous experience, it almost becomes second nature to experienced lawyers.


  • #9
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    McCrack wrote: »
    The book of quantum is out of date by a no. of years.

    Levels of awards are based on expert opinion and that is a combination of loss adjusters, medical people, actuary, vocational rehabilitation consultants and when all these are put into the pot the legal expert (solicitor in consulation with Counsel) will determine the likely level of award. Also remember that lawyers will have seen similiar cases before them and will know what particular injuries will fetch based on that previous experience, it almost becomes second nature to experienced lawyers.

    So, you hire a solicitor to average out what the experts tell him, great stuff.

    I know I'm being overly simplistic but often a solicitor can and will be mistaken about what's realistic, that's why there's such divergence in Courthouse settlements. I've done a fair few PIAB cases and I've seen plenty of experienced lawyers covering themselves by getting barristers to break the bad news to the client. A solicitor's guess is only a guess, it's not anywhere near as valid as the professional opinion of any number of experts the OP could contact on his own.


  • #10
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    I know I'm being overly simplistic but often a solicitor can and will be mistaken about what's realistic, that's why there's such divergence in Courthouse settlements. I've done a fair few PIAB cases and I've seen plenty of experienced lawyers covering themselves by getting barristers to break the bad news to the client. A solicitor's guess is only a guess, it's not anywhere near as valid as the professional opinion of any number of experts the OP could contact on his own.

    I disagree. A medical expert can tell you how bad an injury is, but is not qualified to quantify that injury in monetary terms. Arguably no one can ever really put a figure on things like pain and suffering and it will always be an arbitrary figure to some degree, but a solicitor will be basing it on what in his or her experience the court is likely to award, and medical experts wouldn't really know that as they are not party to settlements etc.


  • #11
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    So, you hire a solicitor to average out what the experts tell him, great stuff.

    I know I'm being overly simplistic but often a solicitor can and will be mistaken about what's realistic, that's why there's such divergence in Courthouse settlements. I've done a fair few PIAB cases and I've seen plenty of experienced lawyers covering themselves by getting barristers to break the bad news to the client. A solicitor's guess is only a guess, it's not anywhere near as valid as the professional opinion of any number of experts the OP could contact on his own.

    A person instructs a solicitor for legal advice and to act as agent for them in legal proceedings.

    No two cases are the same, hence a divergence in settlements/awards.

    You claim "to have done a fair few PIAB cases" but you seem to have a very rudimentary understanding of personal injury litigation. Best leave it to the experts i.e lawyers.


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  • #12
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    McCrack wrote: »
    A person instructs a solicitor for legal advice and to act as agent for them in legal proceedings.

    No two cases are the same, hence a divergence in settlements/awards.

    You claim "to have done a fair few PIAB cases" but you seem to have a very rudimentary understanding of personal injury litigation. Best leave it to the experts i.e lawyers.

    I am a solicitor, and I have regularly seen the legal profession take money in for work a client could easily do themselves. There's nothing about what the OP has posted that suggests he desperately needs a solicitor to handle this for him and nothing you've posted really suggests the OP needs to employ a solicitor either.


  • #13
    Jowls
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 ✭Jowls


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    I am a solicitor, and I have regularly seen the legal profession take money in for work a client could easily do themselves.

    Especially in PI cases.


  • #14
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    I am a solicitor, and I have regularly seen the legal profession take money in for work a client could easily do themselves. There's nothing about what the OP has posted that suggests he desperately needs a solicitor to handle this for him and nothing you've posted really suggests the OP needs to employ a solicitor either.

    For what exactly have you seen other lawyers take fees from a client for work the client could easily do themselves. Be specific.


  • #15
    T-Square
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭T-Square


    I went through PIAB, and it was plain sailing
    A lot of the people on here are in the legal profession,
    and they espouse so much guff and ignorance of how PIAB works

    PIAB was setup to streamline the claims process
    and avoid the over-priced legal profession

    Solicitors hate PIAB because it cuts them and their fees out of the equation.


  • #16
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭McCrack


    T-Square wrote: »
    I went through PIAB, and it was plain sailing
    A lot of the people on here are in the legal profession,
    and they espouse so much guff and ignorance of how PIAB works

    PIAB was setup to streamline the claims process
    and avoid the over-priced legal profession

    Solicitors hate PIAB because it cuts them and their fees out of the equation.

    You dont give up T-Square do you?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59794910#post59794910


  • #17
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    McCrack wrote: »
    For what exactly have you seen other lawyers take fees from a client for work the client could easily do themselves. Be specific.

    Hmm, in a case where liability isn't an issue, get medical report, share medical report with Insurers, submit receipts for physio/expenses etc, settle or wait for PIAB's determination. Any person with a small bit of cop-on could manage that, imo, and yet very often these cases end up in solicitors hands. A solicitor is only really needed where the cases are more complex, the injuries more complex or liability is an issue. In the other thread you say 90% of Applicants use a solicitor for PIAB cases, do you think that such a high figure actually need to do so?

    Some solicitors (not saying you McCrack) feel the need to shroud their work in mystery, a lot of PIAB is very straight-forward, imo.


  • #18
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    Some solicitors (not saying you McCrack) feel the need to shroud their work in mystery, a lot of PIAB is very straight-forward, imo.

    Very true; however, an awful awful lot of people have very little cop-on (probably a high % of those making PI claims;)) and shouldn't even think of managing their own claim. For someone who has genuine cop-on, the mechanics of the PIAB process should be easy enough to handle. But there is one caveat (and this is where McCrack is spot on). Without knowing what the 'going rate' for a certain injury is, how can any lay Plaintiff make an accurate determination of whether he is getting what he ought to? What the current 'going rate' is is not published; you cant (fully) find it in judgments; the PIAB BoQ isnt much use to you. It requires experience of settlments and knowledge of what is going on down in the Law Library.

    Mind you, most conveyancing or probate solicitors aint much good to you either. I wouldnt have a breeze what a typical back injury is getting you these days even though I deal with assessing the value of serious/catastrophic injuries all the time, albeit not the usual slip & trip/RTA stuff. You need someone whose bread and butter is these type of PI cases.

    So, if you are confident you have a very low value claim, and if you genuinely have a decent bit of cop-on, go for it yourself. But if the value is getting into the territory of €30,000+, I would have thought that the few grand you might pay your solicitor is worth it at the end of the day.

    It is very straightforward to self diagnose a viral infection and self-medicate on that basis; but where the stakes get higher, and your condition may be serious, only a fool would proceed without appropriate advice.


  • #19
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Interesting article on award sizes here, old news to the many experts we have here I'm sure. Average works out at about 23,000 euro. A lot of injuries don't bring in a lot of money, but still cost a hefty legal fee. Imagine paying 2,000 in legal fees on a 1,000 euro injury, for example.

    http://www.postonline.co.uk/post/news/1588373/personal-injury-claims-average-drops-ireland

    Personal injury claims average drops 6% in Ireland
    Author: Jonathan Swift
    Source: Post | 25 Jan 2010
    Categories: Claims | Regulation | Insurer
    Tags: Ireland | Employers’ liability | Personal injury | Europe

    The Injuries Board CEO Patricia Byron reports the average workplace award was 48% higher than in motor.
    Compensation totalling €200m was awarded in respect of 8645 personal injury claimants in 2009 according to preliminary year-end data from Injuries Board
    Since 2004, all personal injury claims in Ireland (excluding medical negligence) must be processed through Injuries Board. Claimants can apply directly to the board, either online or by post.
    The average award of €23 163 in 2009 was 6% lower than in 2008, but 5% up on the 2007 average. Nearly three quarters of awards (72%) were for injuries from road traffic accidents while the remainder were split between workplace (11%) and public space (17%) accidents.
    The average workplace award was €32 000 in 2009, almost 48% higher than motor awards which averaged €21 800.
    "Each year we handle an entirely new set of claims so variations in the average award will occur from year to year. In the year ahead, we would anticipate that the average award may fall as we deal with less workplace accidents, which tend to attract the higher awards" commented Patricia Byron, chief executive of Injures Board.
    New claims made to the Board in 2009 rose by almost 5%. Workplace accident claims were down by 6.5% due to less people at work, while motor claims and public liability claims rose by 7.5% and 6%, respectively.
    Ms Byron commented: "The volume of new motor and public liability claims submitted to us has picked up in the last quarter of 2009, but there is little evidence yet of a sustained surge in personal injury claims arising from the recession, as some had forecast."
    She added that there had been no rise in claims to date arising from the adverse weather conditions at the end of 2009 and in the first half of January 2010: "Of course it's early days still and we will handle any claims which are made in the normal way. Despite the high number of injuries sustained from trips and falls in recent weeks, the expectation is that few will result in claims as compensation would only arise if the injury arose from negligence by another party."
    The lowest and highest awards in 2009 were €1 000 and €493 902 respectively. The data released indicates that 88% of awards made by the board are for less than €38,000, a figure which is in line with data on Court awards.
    Patricia Byron concluded by saying that Injuries Board has continued to fulfil its mission to deliver assessments on personal injuries claims fairly, promptly and transparently: "We have now made over 32 000 awards since we opened our doors in 2004, amounting to €730m in compensation. By delivering these awards four times faster and with a low administration charge, the InjuriesBoard.ie model has delivered direct and indirect savings of over €300m to the economy.
    "The board's services are delivered at no cost to the Exchequer as it is funded through fees charged, by and large, to insurers. In 2010 we will continue to deliver an efficient service without an increase in the fees paid by claimants or respondents."


  • #20
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    drkpower wrote: »
    Very true; however, an awful awful lot of people have very little cop-on (probably a high % of those making PI claims;)) and shouldn't even think of managing their own claim. For someone who has genuine cop-on, the mechanics of the PIAB process should be easy enough to handle. But there is one caveat (and this is where McCrack is spot on). Without knowing what the 'going rate' for a certain injury is, how can any lay Plaintiff make an accurate determination of whether he is getting what he ought to? What the current 'going rate' is is not published; you cant (fully) find it in judgments; the PIAB BoQ isnt much use to you. It requires experience of settlments and knowledge of what is going on down in the Law Library.

    Mind you, most conveyancing or probate solicitors aint much good to you either. I wouldnt have a breeze what a typical back injury is getting you these days even though I deal with assessing the value of serious/catastrophic injuries all the time, albeit not the usual slip & trip/RTA stuff. You need someone whose bread and butter is these type of PI cases.

    So, if you are confident you have a very low value claim, and if you genuinely have a decent bit of cop-on, go for it yourself. But if the value is getting into the territory of €30,000+, I would have thought that the few grand you might pay your solicitor is worth it at the end of the day.

    It is very straightforward to self diagnose a viral infection and self-medicate on that basis; but where the stakes get higher, and your condition may be serious, only a fool would proceed without appropriate advice.

    I agree with a lot of what you say, my point was a lot of solicitors aren't expert at costing compensation either and hence the horse-trading that goes on with settlements. I'd much rather see a revised book of quantum brought out with updated figures, but no doubt solicitors in general prefer to keep the general public in relative ignorance.


  • #21
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    Hmm, in a case where liability isn't an issue, get medical report, share medical report with Insurers, submit receipts for physio/expenses etc, settle or wait for PIAB's determination. Any person with a small bit of cop-on could manage that, imo, and yet very often these cases end up in solicitors hands. A solicitor is only really needed where the cases are more complex, the injuries more complex or liability is an issue. In the other thread you say 90% of Applicants use a solicitor for PIAB cases, do you think that such a high figure actually need to do so?

    Some solicitors (not saying you McCrack) feel the need to shroud their work in mystery, a lot of PIAB is very straight-forward, imo.

    Well presumably if a particular accident is like you say then a person (non-lawyer) should be able to submit FormA without any difficulty including identifying the correct Respondent/s and issue correctly a letter of claim or O' Byrne letters???? In addition the Claimant will also be assumed to know the correct value of their injury notwithstanding the possibility of further sequelae???

    If a person in that situation chooses to consult with a solicitor and instruct him/her to make application on their behalf then that is their choice and the solicitor will charge accordingly. I cant see any issue here in respect of a solicitor charging for this.

    In my humble opinion Claimants get more money when they are professionally represented.


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  • #22
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    I agree with a lot of what you say, my point was a lot of solicitors aren't expert at costing compensation either and hence the horse-trading that goes on with settlements. I'd much rather see a revised book of quantum brought out with updated figures, but no doubt solicitors in general prefer to keep the general public in relative ignorance.

    I take issue with this. What is your basis for stating that " lot of solicitors aren't expert at costing compensation either". How many is a lot? Horse-trading as you put it is normal in settlements. It's not an indication that the lawyers dont know what an injury is worth, they do but naturally one side is digging for more and the other holding their corner.

    You are now also conceding that the Book of Quantum is out of date despite earlier saying lay-litigants can refer to it to get an idea of their injury valueband.

    Again your statement that "solicitors in general prefer to keep the general public in relative ignorance" is sweeping and really only your opinion.

    All the above and your previous posts lead me to believe that you have textbook understanding of PI. Maybe you are a practitioner, I doubt it myself.


  • #23
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    McCrack wrote: »
    Well presumably if a particular accident is like you say then a person (non-lawyer) should be able to submit FormA without any difficulty including identifying the correct Respondent/s and issue correctly a letter of claim or O' Byrne letters???? In addition the Claimant will also be assumed to know the correct value of their injury notwithstanding the possibility of further sequelae???

    If a person in that situation chooses to consult with a solicitor and instruct him/her to make application on their behalf then that is their choice and the solicitor will charge accordingly. I cant see any issue here in respect of a solicitor charging for this.

    In my humble opinion Claimants get more money when they are professionally represented.

    Most of what you posted isn't all that relevant, very often there isn't an issue identifying who should be sued, and where it is I've already said a solicitor should be engaged, but I'm curious on what you base your last opinion on? Professional pride or something more substantial?


  • #24
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    McCrack wrote: »
    I take issue with this. What is your basis for stating that " lot of solicitors aren't expert at costing compensation either". How many is a lot? Horse-trading as you put it is normal in settlements. It's not an indication that the lawyers dont know what an injury is worth, they do but naturally one side is digging for more and the other holding their corner.

    You are now also conceding that the Book of Quantum is out of date despite earlier saying lay-litigants can refer to it to get an idea of their injury valueband.

    Again your statement that "solicitors in general prefer to keep the general public in relative ignorance" is sweeping and really only your opinion.

    All the above and your previous posts lead me to believe that you have textbook understanding of PI. Maybe you are a practitioner, I doubt it myself.

    From my experience, the book of quantum is still used by solicitors all over Ireland to value injuries, and PIAB haven't departed significantly from it? Perhaps you think PIAB has? What I was saying is that a modern updated one should be brought out, not that the current one is useless.

    I value your doubts about me about as highly as I value your criticism.


  • #25
    T-Square
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭T-Square


    McCrack wrote: »
    In my humble opinion Claimants get more money when they are professionally represented.

    Most people just want whats fair.


  • #26
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    T-Square wrote: »
    Most people just want whats fair.

    :D
    What two people on either side consider to be fair is often a very very different thing.


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