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Should the government pay for sex-change operations?

24567…16

Comments

  • #32
    Effects
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    steve06 wrote: »
    I watched a show about it on Discovery one day and it was weird... A guy got a sex change to become a girl, and then became a lesbian. A girl got a sex change to become a guy, and then became gay. Would it not have been easier to stay as they were as they were after the opposite sex anyway?
    Gender and sexual orientation are two seperate things.


  • #33
    Wazdakka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭Wazdakka


    In my opinion, a sex change operation is elective surgery.
    No I don't think that the HSE should pay for them.

    If it is a serious enough issue (mentally) for them and it can be deemed not elective but necessary by a recognised psychologist, then I think they should get into a position where they can argue it with a health insurance company.

    I'm not opposed to these procedures, to each their own and all, but as far as I'm concerned it's an elective surgery not required to save or prolong life and I don't think the government should be in any way paying for them.


  • #34
    barleybooley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭barleybooley


    I can haz nose job?


  • #35
    chin_grin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,808 ✭✭✭✭chin_grin


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Agreed -it's not a homophobic comment - it's a transphobic comment to say that people need their operations for the sole purposes of a vanity boost and that they are not worthy of them

    Well, then that was not my intent. But these operations are by choice, not by necessity. The operation (in essence) works on the psyche it doesn't do anything to biologically improve the situation that that person is in (other than cosmetic).

    That was what I was trying to get at.

    Ok I'm going to give you a black and white situation here.
    1. Child needs operation to save life.
    2. Man/woman needs operation to change sex.

    I'm holding a gun to your head, choose.

    Please note that I could've written the second option as follows:

    Man/woman wants operation to change sex.


  • #36
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Wazdakka wrote: »
    In my opinion, a sex change operation is elective surgery.
    No I don't think that the HSE should pay for them.

    If it is a serious enough issue (mentally) for them and it can be deemed not elective but necessary by a recognised psychologist, then I think they should get into a position where they can argue it with a health insurance company.

    I'm not opposed to these procedures, to each their own and all, but as far as I'm concerned it's an elective surgery not required to save or prolong life and I don't think the government should be in any way paying for them.

    Every single person who goes through SRS has to get diagnosed by a psychologist and it is always necessary rather than an elective - people don't just decide on the spur of the moment - oh yes I want a sex change

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #37
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    chin_grin wrote: »
    Well, then that was not my intent. But these operations are by choice, not by necessity. The operation (in essence) works on the psyche it doesn't do anything to biologically improve the situation that that person is in (other than cosmetic).

    That was what I was trying to get at.

    Ok I'm going to give you a black and white situation here.
    1. Child needs operation to save life.
    2. Man/woman needs operation to change sex.

    I'm holding a gun to your head, choose.

    Please note that I could've written the second option as follows:

    Man/woman wants operation to change sex.

    Thats a false choice - my answer is that I would choose both

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #38
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Links234 wrote: »
    because how you feel in your own body has nothing to do with who you're attracted to!
    ibarelycare wrote: »
    Getting a sex change is not related to sexuality at all.
    Effects wrote: »
    Gender and sexual orientation are two sererate things.

    Yes I know this, but I think it's a bit odd. I'm a gay girl trapped in a guy's body/I'm a gay guy trapped in a girl's body. As in, they're attracted to the opposite sex and have the 'tools' needed to have sex with the opposite sex, so why change it? I know a lot of gay people and even some of them have said that's a bit strange because after the op, they'll still be after the same people, they can't have sex properly anyway and to go into a gay bar and say you used to be the opposite sex will turn off a lot of people.


  • #39
    TelePaul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Thats a false choice - my answer is that I would choose both

    You know how a choice works, right? :D


  • #40
    TelePaul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Every single person who goes through SRS has to get diagnosed by a psychologist and it is always necessary rather than an elective - people don't just decide on the spur of the moment - oh yes I want a sex change

    There are a great deal of things relating to physicality that can contribute to mental health difficulties - should the HSE fund each and every one? I'm curious as to where, in your opinion, do you draw the line?


  • #41
    Banned Account
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Banned Account


    Wazdakka wrote: »
    I'm not opposed to these procedures ...


    Are you offering to "go chick" Wazdakka? If so, give me a shout, I know someone we could meet up with;)


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  • #42
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,439 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    NO! Absolutely not. And tbh theres not a single argument that can validate spending money, that is badly needed elsewhere, on a sex change. I dont care if the person cries themself to sleep every night about it. If its that bad then they can go to counselling about it rather than spending the tax-payers valuable money on an operation that is not a necessity. Or save up for the operation like anybody else who has to save for something they want.:mad:


  • #43
    tolosenc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    South Park being the source of all of my knowledge, it is a cosmetic operation and thus, imo, should not be state funded.


  • #44
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    steve06 wrote: »
    Yes I know this, but I think it's a bit odd. I'm a gay girl trapped in a guy's body/I'm a gay guy trapped in a girl's body. As in, they're attracted to the opposite sex and have the 'tools' needed to have sex with the opposite sex, so why change it? I know a lot of gay people and even some of them have said that's a bit strange because after the op, they'll still be after the same people, they can't have sex properly anyway and to go into a gay bar and say you used to be the opposite sex will turn off a lot of people.

    so you're saying that a lesbian couple don't have the "tools" need to have sex with each other?
    you're being remarkably silly


  • #45
    chin_grin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,808 ✭✭✭✭chin_grin


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Thats a false choice - my answer is that I would choose both

    Ok, I do see where you're coming from here. And I'm not purposefully trying to disagree or get a rise out of you as I respect your answer.

    I'll leave it at this, what I'm saying is I cannot weight up these as being as important as each other........But, again that's just me. And I also would like to clarify that I'm not a transphobic as you mentioned! As I wouldn't expect anyone else to judge me, then who am I to judge?


  • #46
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Dean09 wrote: »
    NO! Absolutely not. And tbh theres not a single argument that can validate spending money, that is badly needed elsewhere, on a sex change. I dont care if the person cries themself to sleep every night about it. If its that bad then they can go to counselling about it rather than spending the tax-payers valuable money on an operation that is not a necessity. Or save up for the operation like anybody else who has to save for something they want.:mad:

    I think councilling is already a pre requisite to getting the operation.


  • #47
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    how is this even a topic for debate?


  • #48
    Effects
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    steve06 wrote: »
    Yes I know this, but I think it's a bit odd. I'm a gay girl trapped in a guy's body/I'm a gay guy trapped in a girl's body. As in, they're attracted to the opposite sex and have the 'tools' needed to have sex with the opposite sex, so why change it? I know a lot of gay people and even some of them have said that's a bit strange because after the op, they'll still be after the same people, they can't have sex properly anyway and to go into a gay bar and say you used to be the opposite sex will turn off a lot of people.
    You might think it's a bit odd. I just think you're a bit ignorant.


  • #49
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    chin_grin wrote: »
    Ok, I do see where you're coming from here. And I'm not purposefully trying to disagree or get a rise out of you as I respect your answer.

    I'll leave it at this, what I'm saying is I cannot weight up these as being as important as each other........But, again that's just me. And I also would like to clarify that I'm not a transphobic as you mentioned! As I wouldn't expect anyone else to judge me, then who am I to judge?

    You're probably not transphobic but I did find the way in which you suggested one operation was more worthy and one person was more worthy of treatment distasteful - In my view it shouldn't come down to pitting people against each other and saying that trans people are less worthy than children of genuinely needed healthcare - They both need the healthcare so give it to them both - I have no problem if it's a question of resources looking to see if SRS can be achieved somehow cheaper or redirecting resources within the HSE so that patients get needed treatment

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #50
    Wazdakka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭Wazdakka


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Every single person who goes through SRS has to get diagnosed by a psychologist and it is always necessary rather than an elective - people don't just decide on the spur of the moment - oh yes I want a sex change

    Fair enough. I didn't know that. :)

    Either way, I think that it should be an issue between the person and a health insurance company.
    I don't think that the already overburdened / badly run, health system should be paying for these procedures.

    Does the government pay for people who are self conscious about there hairline to get surgery?
    Or people who think that the shape of their nose is affecting there confidence and that surgery would make them more happy and successful?

    I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone of the future / current sexchanged persuasion by comparing it to those kind of procedures, but that's just how I (being massively uneducated on the nuances of the subject) see it.


  • #51
    Effects
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    aDeener wrote: »
    how is this even a topic for debate?
    Because this is an internet forum, that's what happens quite often. People debate different topics.


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  • #52
    Terry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    barleybooley wrote: »
    I can haz nose job?
    Only if you plead poverty after destroying your septum through a coke addiction. :)


  • #53
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Links234 wrote: »
    so you're saying that a lesbian couple don't have the "tools" need to have sex with each other?
    you're being remarkably silly

    No I'm not saying that. I'm saying someone who's had a sex change to become a woman will never have the 'tools' to have sex properly with a man or woman. It will never work as good as what they had, a lot of post op people can't even have sex ffs.
    Effects wrote: »
    You might think it's a bit odd. I just think you're a bit ignorant.
    I'm not ignorant. I understand they must feel better in their new body, but it's false, it's a body that will never sexually work properly. A lot of the documentaries about it show the person happy in their new body, but they're still very lonely.


  • #54
    TelePaul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    You're probably not transphobic but I did find the way in which you suggested one operation was more worthy and one person was more worthy of treatment distasteful

    Mate, if you're holding out for consensus, I think you'll be a long time waiting.


  • #55
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    TelePaul wrote: »
    Mate, if you're holding out for consensus, I think you'll be a long time waiting.
    I'm not looking for consensus - I'm arguing that people are entitled to basic human rights of healthcare

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #56
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,439 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    I'm not looking for consensus - I'm arguing that people are entitled to basic human rights of healthcare
    Basic human rights doesnt involve un-necessary operations


  • #57
    TelePaul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    I'm not looking for consensus - I'm arguing that people are entitled to basic human rights of healthcare

    No, you said you were offended by the fact that our people don't share your view on what is a remarkably complex issue:
    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    You're probably not transphobic but I did find the way in which you suggested one operation was more worthy and one person was more worthy of treatment distasteful

    Also, at the risk of opening a whole other can of worms, you have to consider scarcity - resources are finite, the HSE's particularly so. Prioritisation is logical if not ideal.


  • #58
    twinQuins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭twinQuins


    Dean09 wrote: »
    Basic human rights doesnt involve un-necessary operations

    Let's leave what's considered neccessary to the medical professionals.


  • #59
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    steve06 wrote: »
    No I'm not saying that. I'm saying someone who's had a sex change to become a woman will never have the 'tools' to have sex properly with a man or woman. It will never work as good as what they had, a lot of post op people can't even have sex ffs.


    I'm not ignorant. I understand they must feel better in their new body, but it's false, it's a body that will never sexually work properly. A lot of the documentaries about it show the person happy in their new body, but they're still very lonely.

    a lot of post op people can't even have sex?! where did you get that idea?? that's a load of rubbish

    In the case of a vagina being made, once it's fully healed, it's fully capable of orgasm and sexual stimulation. the only time when someone looses sensitivity is in the rare case when something goes wrong with the surgery or they don't keep up proper aftercare. but generally, they will work properly sexually.

    you're assuming that just because you have a set of sexual organs, that you can or want to actually use them. and that's not always true when something feels so uncomfortable and unnatural to you.


  • #60
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,439 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Morkarleth wrote: »
    Let's leave what's considered neccessary to the medical professionals.
    Exactly, they're MEDICAL proffessionals. Wanting a sex change for whatever reason is clearly a psychological issue that should be resolved in ways other than a serious and costly operation.


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  • #61
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Dean09 wrote: »
    Exactly, they're MEDICAL proffessionals. Wanting a sex change for whatever reason is clearly a psychological issue that should be resolved in ways other than a serious and costly operation.
    I hope you see the irony in what you just said

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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