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Accounting company but only a bookkeeper?

  • 26-08-2010 01:12PM
    #1
    jennypeny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42 ✭


    A question re; starting up a Limited company.

    Can someone set up a company with accountants in the name i.e (XY & Co Accountants) and have a trading name of a bookkeeper i.e (XY Bookkeeping) ?

    I am just curious in that I have a friend who wants to set up a ltd company acting as a bookkeeper but hopes to gain a practicing cert in 18 months and will then act as a full accountant but they hope to be able to already have the name of the company established by that time.

    Can anyone offer some insight?


Comments

  • #2
    R0N BURGUNDY
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 402 ✭✭R0N BURGUNDY


    anyone can put the word accountants in their name cant they? i think i remember reading that somewhere before. they just cant put in chartered or credited etc.


  • #3
    tenchi-fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭tenchi-fan


    The cert of incorporation must be publicly displayed in her office which will contain the company's name. If the company has "accountant" in the name any client could reasonably believe they are visiting a qualified accountant who has a practicing cert.

    Your friend should contact the professional body she is registered to get the go-ahead.

    Regardless of whether any company can have "accountant" in the name, your friend has extra obligations under the professional bodies' code of conduct.


  • #4
    J.Ryan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 474 ✭✭J.Ryan


    Also by being a shareholder the body may feel that your friend is trying to get around their own rules on public practice.


  • #5
    jennypeny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42 ✭jennypeny


    I never thought about the implications of what the body might think she was doing. I better get her to contact them and see what they would say.

    There is nothing devious in anyway about her proposed plan she is just eager to get the business off the ground and does not want to wait another 18 months to do it.

    There would be no public office she would be working from home until the cert came through and the business was hopefully off the ground enough to go at it full time and give up the current employment.


  • #6
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    The name would look fairly silly.

    & Co is what partnerships would be called. Ltd is another form of an organisation. & Co Ltd would look odd.

    As has been said above. If your body finds out you'll be kicked out.


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  • #7
    J.Ryan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 474 ✭✭J.Ryan


    jennypeny wrote: »
    .......There would be no public office she would be working from home until the cert came through.....

    Public Practice is the general offering of services, however if she had a few clients that were limited companies who had an external auditor/accountant, that should be ok, as the work she does would be reviewed by a qualified accountant with a practicing cert. but I can't state that for certain.


  • #8
    J.Ryan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 474 ✭✭J.Ryan


    smcgiff wrote: »
    The name would look fairly silly.

    & Co is what partnerships would be called. Ltd is another form of an organisation. & Co Ltd would look odd.

    .....


    I've seen Insurance Brokers and an Estate Agent with & Co. Ltd, I've also seen Sole Practioners using & Co.


  • #9
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    J.Ryan wrote: »
    I've seen Insurance Brokers and an Estate Agent with & Co. Ltd, I've also seen Sole Practioners using & Co.

    Okay - seems odd.


  • #10
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    J.Ryan wrote: »
    Public Practice is the general offering of services, however if she had a few clients that were limited companies who had an external auditor/accountant, that should be ok, as the work she does would be reviewed by a qualified accountant with a practicing cert. but I can't state that for certain.

    Not sure about other bodies, but the above would be a definite no no under ACCA rules unless they were employees.

    Even under the above scenario (unless employees) it would also be recommended that insurance be taken out.


  • #11
    djk1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 899 ✭✭✭djk1000


    jennypeny wrote: »
    A question re; starting up a Limited company.

    Can someone set up a company with accountants in the name i.e (XY & Co Accountants) and have a trading name of a bookkeeper i.e (XY Bookkeeping) ?

    I am just curious in that I have a friend who wants to set up a ltd company acting as a bookkeeper but hopes to gain a practicing cert in 18 months and will then act as a full accountant but they hope to be able to already have the name of the company established by that time.

    Can anyone offer some insight?

    Can I ask how your friend is going to get a practicing cert in 18 months? I thought that you have to have supervised experience pre and post qualification before getting a practicing cert. If your friend is going to be self employed then she is not being supervised.

    I also thought that to have a practicing cert as a qualified accountant, you couldn't hide behind limited liability, is a company going to work at all?

    I do know that doing accounts that may be relied upon by third parties prior to having a cert is a definite no no as far as the institutes are concerned.


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  • #12
    djk1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 899 ✭✭✭djk1000


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Okay - seems odd.

    "& Co" is not a protected or legal term like "Ltd" or "Plc", but back in the days when partnerships were more prevalent, it was used more properly to signify that there were other partners not named in the title.

    So Smith and Smith has two partners, but Smith, Smith & Co. has more partners not named. It was used mainly because it was not practical to change the name everytime a partner came or went, it also had some significance in agency law.

    These days though, I think it's used just to make the name sound more classy:D


  • #13
    dbran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭dbran


    Hi

    There may be a problem in the company name in that the name may not be distinguishable enough and it may be rejected by CRO as a result. Currently auditors cannot incorporate but all other services can be done via a limited company.

    There is no problem doing bookeeping to the public up to trial balance. This includes VAT returns PAYE, etc. but not accounts. Sole trader or company it does not matter.

    Moreover you may not prepare anything else, a report or otherwise that may be used by a third party in making a decision regarding the entity. This could be the revenue with tax returns, management accounts that could be used by a bank etc. If your regulating body finds out you will be severely repremanded and possibly excluded from membership.

    If it is supervised by another practicing accountant than he must be signing off and the work is done entirely under his name. he is effectively subcontracting you to do the work and the client is his client.

    Of course it you are unqualified and not a member of any regulating body....you can do what you want!!!


    Regards

    dbran


  • #14
    jennypeny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42 ✭jennypeny


    I think some people may have gotten the wrong impression from what I have said here.

    1) She is not opening a public accountant’s practice she is doing basic bookkeeping and offering advice to individuals on how to prepare Tax returns and individuals would then sign and submit themselves.

    2) She is working full time under the supervision of a qualified individual hence the Practice cert application in 18 months

    3) There is no preparation of financial accounts occurring until a practicing cert was obtained and all insurances relating to this were gotten.


  • #15
    dbran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭dbran


    jennypeny wrote: »
    I think some people may have gotten the wrong impression from what I have said here.

    1) She is not opening a public accountant’s practice she is doing basic bookkeeping and offering advice to individuals on how to prepare Tax returns and individuals would then sign and submit themselves.


    2) She is working full time under the supervision of a qualified individual hence the Practice cert application in 18 mon

    3) There is no preparation of financial accounts occurring until a practicing cert was obtained and all insurances relating to this were gotten.


    1) Basic bookkeeping- OK. No problem.
    Offering advise to people re completing their tax returns - Definately not OK.

    Dosen't matter whether you fill them in or if you get them to do it themselves. You are engaging in public practice without a practicing certificate and if your institute finds out or you are reported to them, they will repremand you or probably strike you off. All you need to get is a nasty client or a disgruntled former accountant so I would be very careful

    2) Fair enough. But for those things you are not authorised to do, the supervising accountant must sign off on. You must not hold yourself out to the public as carrying on public practice and therefore cannot sign off in your own name.

    3) Fair enough also. Best of luck with it anyway :)

    Kind Regards

    Dbran


  • #16
    tenchi-fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭tenchi-fan


    jennypeny wrote: »
    I think some people may have gotten the wrong impression from what I have said here.

    1) She is not opening a public accountant’s practice she is doing basic bookkeeping and offering advice to individuals on how to prepare Tax returns and individuals would then sign and submit themselves.

    Is your friend acca? She should read this: http://rulebook.accaglobal.com/

    Bookkeeping = fine.
    The recording of basic accounting data up to and including the preparation of accounting records to trial balance stage
    (aa) bank accounts
    (bb) cash
    (cc) sales ledger and purchase ledger
    (ii) Payroll
    (aa) wages
    (bb) PAYE, National Insurance deductions
    (iii) VAT or its equivalent.

    Tax return is NOT ok. Preparing a tax return for the client to sign themselves is NOT ok. Advice on how to prepare a tax return is not ok!

    Here is the definition of public practice:
    (a) accepting an appointment as an auditor; and/or
    (b) signing or producing any accounts or report or certificate or tax return concerning any person's financial affairs, whether an individual sole-trader, an unincorporated body or a firm, in circumstances where reliance is likely to be placed on such accounts or report or certificate or tax return by any other person (the "third party"), or doing any other thing which may lead the third party to believe that the accounts or report or certificate or tax return concerning the financial affairs of such a person have been prepared, approved or reviewed by the practitioner; and/or
    (c) holding oneself or itself out, or allowing oneself or itself to be held out, as being available to undertake the activities referred to in (a) and (b) above (and allowing oneself to be known as a, or a firm of "Chartered Certified Accountant(s)", "Certified Accountant(s)", "Chartered Accountant(s)", "Accountant(s)" or "Auditor(s)" or any similar description or designation standing for any such description in the context of the practitioner's business shall be regarded as an example of such a holding out); and/or
    (d) holding oneself out, or allowing oneself to be held out, as a sole proprietor, partner or director of a firm, or designated member or member of a limited liability partnership, where public practice is carried on.

    As you can see your friend would be violating (b) by preparing tax returns and (c) by setting up a company with "accountant" in the description!


  • #17
    Theexcelclub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭Theexcelclub


    The word "Accountant" will soon be protected by law. The bill just need to be passed. Then it will be illigal to hold your self out as an Accountant if you are not qualified.


  • #18
    gutterman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭gutterman


    djk1000 wrote: »
    Can I ask how your friend is going to get a practicing cert in 18 months? I thought that you have to have supervised experience pre and post qualification before getting a practicing cert. If your friend is going to be self employed then she is not being supervised.

    I also thought that to have a practicing cert as a qualified accountant, you couldn't hide behind limited liability, is a company going to work at all?

    I do know that doing accounts that may be relied upon by third parties prior to having a cert is a definite no no as far as the institutes are concerned.

    I think a person could find themeselves in trouble misleading the public like that.
    A person would reasonably expect accountants to be in an office with accountants on a sign over the door, if a shop says butchers it doesn't mean Barbers.


  • #19
    Accountancy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭Accountancy


    You cannot use a word in a limited company name that will mislead the general public


  • #20
    dbran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭dbran


    Theexcelclub wrote: »
    The word "Accountant" will soon be protected by law. The bill just need to be passed. Then it will be illigal to hold your self out as an Accountant if you are not qualified.

    I believe it is being held up by the fact that there isnt anyone available int he relevant government department to draft the bill. They are all working on other projects at present. I wouldn't hold my breath on this one. I believe 2012 at the earliest was the date given.


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