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Here's a stupid question...

  • 28-09-2010 9:32am
    #1
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭


    Given enough time to train 2x per day, do ya reckon it's better to lift in one session and do cardio in another? If the purpose is fat loss.

    Or just go straight thru and lift, deplete glycogen stores and then go straight onto cardio?

    The latter should result in more fat being burned right??

    Anyone got any reasons why it'd be bad?


Comments

  • #2
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    I reckon we need to stage an intervention for you...

    but this does interest me as im looking to add 30 min of cardio onto my lifting sessions as i dont have time for 2x a day


  • #3
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    I think you should abandon the weightloss obsession and go back to being a "fat" powerlifter :).

    I think 30 mins cardio at the end of your lifting might burn more calories than 2 a day, but it might as burn you out after a week and leave you weak as a kitten.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #4
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    Surely 30 minutes of LIT wouldnt burn you out???


  • #5
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    the drifter wrote: »
    Surely 30 minutes of LIT wouldnt burn you out???

    No it woudln't. Do you think Hanley will do 30 mins of LIT though?

    I reckon 30 mins of medium intensity cardio on top of Smolov or 531 would seriously eat into your recovery time.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #6
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    ah but doesnt everyone recover differently?


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  • #7
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    the drifter wrote: »
    ah but doesnt everyone recover differently?

    I suppose so, it was only an opinion though.

    I just don't see the sanity of it, although it could work wonders.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #8
    Red Cortina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Red Cortina


    I reckon if you have time to train twice a day then you have time to read over that headwrecker of a thread (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055968130) and come back and tell us the answer to your question :D


  • #9
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    well my other option is to get up at 6:00am and do cardio/conditioning sessions 2x a week...which would hammer my recovery!


  • #10
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    briankeating wrote: »
    I think you should abandon the weightloss obsession and go back to being a "fat" powerlifter :).

    I think 30 mins cardio at the end of your lifting might burn more calories than 2 a day, but it might as burn you out after a week and leave you weak as a kitten.

    You'd burn the same amount of kcals?! It's just their source would be different?

    Why would it burn me out? Keep in mind I'm doing pretty much the same total workload per day anyway. So by piggybacking the two sessions I've actually MORE recovery time.....


  • #11
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    im gonna bring this too the conversation

    guinea_pig1.jpg

    Hanley go do it and report back


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  • #12
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Red Cortina wrote: »
    I reckon if you have time to train twice a day then you have time to read over that headwrecker of a thread (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055968130) and come back and tell us the answer to your question :D

    I got as far as this "That sound like a much better plan. What I'd do if you want to target fat loss is to do a 5 min warm up...the 10x30/30 intervals...that is go flat out for 30 seconds then easy for 30 seconds...then get off whatever piece of machinery you on and sit down....do ABSOLUTELY nothing for 5 minutes...then get back on and do 20-30 mins of low intensity cardio.

    But shhhhh...don't tell anyone...otherwise everyone will have abs like yours."

    I assume that's to deplete glycogen stores and/or take advantage of EPOC. Both of which would be covered by the lifting beforehand.

    So cardio immediately after lifting, it is!


  • #13
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    When Hanley posted that night, I sat for about 30 sec looking at it thinking:

    "Hamster? Wtf does he mean by Hamster?"


    True story.


  • #14
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    what type of cardio after lifting though....


  • #15
    Khannie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    Hanley wrote: »
    You'd burn the same amount of kcals?! It's just their source would be different?

    I think if you burn the same calories you're gonna get the same end goal, give or take. I would prefer the two sessions myself for the same reasons as you have given.


  • #16
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Hanley wrote: »
    You'd burn the same amount of kcals?! It's just their source would be different?

    Why would it burn me out? Keep in mind I'm doing pretty much the same total workload per day anyway. So by piggybacking the two sessions I've actually MORE recovery time.....

    I have no definate answers, just giving an opinion. I know if I had time to work out twice a day I'd go that route.

    Lift in the morning, eat, rest and cardio in the evening. The eat and rest allows you recover a little so the cardio is better quality, if you know what I mean.

    In fact don't Oly lifters train twice a day? Heavy in the morning and light in the evening?

    I am sure Will, Barry or someone else is about to give you the real answer anyway.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #17
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    How long are you required to be up out of bed and active before lifting heavy...
    I heard somewhere its a min of 2 hours ....this could be bullcrap though...


  • #18
    Red Cortina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Red Cortina


    the drifter wrote: »
    How long are you required to be up out of bed and active before lifting heavy...
    I heard somewhere its a min of 2 hours ....this could be bullcrap though...
    Now that is a bit of interesting info, where did you hear that???


  • #19
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    the drifter wrote: »
    im gonna bring this too the conversation

    guinea_pig1.jpg

    Hanley go do it and report back

    So that's kettle, pot, black and now this. At least I'm brining worthwhle sh!t to the forum.
    Khannie wrote: »
    I think if you burn the same calories you're gonna get the same end goal, give or take. I would prefer the two sessions myself for the same reasons as you have given.

    Yeah... but by the evening/second session muscle glycogen stores will have replenished so the initial energy will come from there and not fat stores...?
    briankeating wrote: »
    I have no definate answers, just giving an opinion. I know if I had time to work out twice a day I'd go that route.

    Lift in the morning, eat, rest and cardio in the evening. The eat and rest allows you recover a little so the cardio is better quality, if you know what I mean.

    In fact don't Oly lifters train twice a day? Heavy in the morning and light in the evening?

    I am sure Will, Barry or someone else is about to give you the real answer anyway.

    I don't care about the "quality" of the cardio tho. I don't want to get fitter. I want to get leaner.

    The oly lifter analogy doesn't really come into play... they're using multiple session because the lifts are so neurologically intensive that fatigue sets in fast and it's hard to do good quality work for prolonger periods of time.

    Going for a stroll won't really break your brain...


  • #20
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    the drifter wrote: »
    How long are you required to be up out of bed and active before lifting heavy...
    I heard somewhere its a min of 2 hours ....this could be bullcrap though...
    Red Cortina wrote: »
    Now that is a bit of interesting info, where did you hear that???

    Something to do with the intervertebral disc hydration afaik. Lets it return to normal "safe" levels capable of supporting heavy weight after lying down for 8 hours?


  • #21
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    Hanley wrote: »
    Something to do with the intervertebral disc hydration afaik. Lets it return to normal "safe" levels capable of supporting heavy weight after lying down for 8 hours?

    yes thats it...or in english...ya have to give your spine time to sort itself out...


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  • #22
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    Red Cortina wrote: »
    Now that is a bit of interesting info, where did you hear that???

    i have no idea...i think it was form an angry hairy russian in UL...


  • #23
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Hanley wrote: »

    I don't care about the "quality" of the cardio tho. I don't want to get fitter. I want to get leaner.

    Fair enough, what about the metabolic boost you'll get from excercising twice a day rather than once? You might burn less kcal during the actual workouts, but more when you are finished.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #24
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    briankeating wrote: »
    Fair enough, what about the metabolic boost you'll get from excercising twice a day rather than once? You might burn less kcal during the actual workouts, but more when you are finished.

    What metabolic boost from LIT?


  • #25
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    where the funk is Will.....


  • #26
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Hanley wrote: »
    What metabolic boost from LIT?

    I seem have missed the point of this whole thread. At not point was I talking about LIT, even when Drifter specifically mentioned it. Apologies.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #27
    SpookyBastard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭SpookyBastard


    the drifter wrote: »
    where the funk is Will.....

    wonder if we could set up some kind of Bat-Light for calling him? (and a special red phone for during the day I suppose!)


  • #28
    Pontificatus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 131 ✭✭Pontificatus


    the drifter wrote: »
    where the funk is Will.....

    Didnt you guys ban him?


  • #29
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    His ban has expired...

    /mod no more discussion on the ban please back to LIT :P


  • #30
    SpookyBastard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭SpookyBastard


    willbatlight.jpg

    with luck this'll work :cool:


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  • #31
    The Davestator
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭The Davestator


    Hanley, from what was said at the recent nut x talk in dcu, it would be highly unlikely that you would have replenshied muscle glycogen between workouts so you would be burning fat in the pm in my opinion and not glycogen.

    For me, it's a personal choice, I much rather get the weights done in the am as I train better in the am.


  • #32
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    The Davestator wrote: »
    Hanley, from what was said at the recent nut x talk in dcu, it would be highly unlikely that you would have replenshied muscle glycogen between workouts so you would be burning fat in the pm in my opinion and not glycogen.

    For me, it's a personal choice, I much rather get the weights done in the am as I train better in the am.

    and again back to my question about it taking 2 hours for your spine to kick in before its up to training heavy...

    id hate to fall out of bed at 7:00am and hit smolov at 7:30am


  • #33
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    The Davestator wrote: »
    Hanley, from what was said at the recent nut x talk in dcu, it would be highly unlikely that you would have replenshied muscle glycogen between workouts so you would be burning fat in the pm in my opinion and not glycogen.

    For me, it's a personal choice, I much rather get the weights done in the am as I train better in the am.

    This is true. And something I've been considering too. There'd be SOME replenishment tho presumably?

    This is such a ridiculously small amount of difference I'm talking about anyway. I reckon doing more cardio in the gym burns more kcals than walking anyway and i'm not making two trips to the gym per day this week so I may as well just do it all in one big go.


  • #34
    optimistic_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 657 ✭✭✭optimistic_


    Weights and cardio in the am for me from tomorrow due to time constraints, I'll post any progress etc


  • #35
    kevpants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭kevpants


    the drifter wrote: »
    and again back to my question about it taking 2 hours for your spine to kick in before its up to training heavy...

    id hate to fall out of bed at 7:00am and hit smolov at 7:30am

    True it does take quite a while for your spint to kick in.

    I've only trained early twice and both times I injured my spint.

    True story.


  • #36
    the drifter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭the drifter


    kevpants wrote: »
    True it does take quite a while for your spint to kick in.

    I've only trained early twice and both times I injured my spint.

    True story.

    wait what now? :rolleyes:


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  • #37
    Esse85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,290 ✭✭✭Esse85


    Without reading any replies, Id say do whichever suits you best, if you have the time to do AM and PM sessions then go ahead, if not then squeeze it all into one session.

    I honestly dont think results would be that different.

    But for peace of mind you could try one method for a chosen timescale, monitor results and alternate to the other method, draw some conclusions from your experience and get back to us.

    Its easy overthink these things. The key will be consistency and diet rather than the chosen time.


  • #38
    cmyk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭cmyk


    Hanley wrote: »
    Given enough time to train 2x per day, do ya reckon it's better to lift in one session and do cardio in another? If the purpose is fat loss.

    Or just go straight thru and lift, deplete glycogen stores and then go straight onto cardio?

    The latter should result in more fat being burned right??

    Anyone got any reasons why it'd be bad?

    I haven't looked at your original log in a while, I would have thought this depends on a few things? Are you still lifting/running same programming and volume as before you started the cut? Lifting everyday?

    I know that if I was to do a heavy lifting session in the am and any sort of session in the pm while running a calorie deficit as much as you are I'd run myself into the ground. What's your recovery been like so far?


  • #39
    rubadub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    the drifter wrote: »
    How long are you required to be up out of bed and active before lifting heavy...
    I heard somewhere its a min of 2 hours ....this could be bullcrap though...
    Hanley wrote: »
    Something to do with the intervertebral disc hydration afaik. Lets it return to normal "safe" levels capable of supporting heavy weight after lying down for 8 hours?
    I posted a thread on this a while ago.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056017890

    as said, could be BS.

    I posted this link in some other thread, has many interesting articles on fat loss
    http://www.ergo-log.com/


  • #40
    Will Heffernan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭Will Heffernan


    Hanley wrote: »
    Given enough time to train 2x per day, do ya reckon it's better to lift in one session and do cardio in another?
    Yes.
    If the purpose is fat loss.
    If the purpose is fat loss you are looking to burn as many calories as possible.
    Or just go straight thru and lift, deplete glycogen stores and then go straight onto cardio?
    Depleting your glycogen stores just doing the strength training that I 'imagine' you are doing would actually be quite difficult.
    The latter should result in more fat being burned right??
    This would be true if you were doing a weights session designed around targeting glycogen depletion.
    Anyone got any reasons why it'd be bad?
    Nope. Personal preference thing. I hate doing weights in the morning...hate it to the point that you couldn't make me do it. Strength conditioning on the other hand I can manage...but not straight weights/power/strength work.


  • #41
    JayRoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    My own relatively recent experience is that doing cardio/conditioning/metcons/whatever as a separate entity instead of after a strength session actually does work better for fatloss (and, probably to an even larger extent, performance).

    It does seem sorta counter-intuitive for this to be the case when you consider glycogen depletion and all, but that's probably why I towed the "conventional wisdom" line on this for so long and it did me shag-all good.


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  • #42
    Gordon Gekko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Gordon Gekko


    rubadub wrote: »
    I posted a thread on this a while ago.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056017890

    as said, could be BS.

    I posted this link in some other thread, has many interesting articles on fat loss
    http://www.ergo-log.com/

    I read this when you posted it before and as someone who does squats approx an hour after getting up I took a good deal of comfort from the claim in your link that 90% of fluid loss for the day is already done within 1 hour of waking up i.e. after an hour the risk (if there is any) is greatly diminished by waiting an hour.

    Edit Just found this article on Livestrong.com which seems to confirm the point that one hour sees a big reduction in risk.


  • #43
    Parsley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Parsley


    Will Heffernan wrote: »
    Depleting your glycogen stores just doing the strength training that I 'imagine' you are doing would actually be quite difficult.

    At the recent Nutriton X seminar they said very heavy, intense lifting will deplete your muscle glycogen very quickly indeed...


  • #44
    dave80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭dave80


    Parsley wrote: »
    At the recent Nutriton X seminar they said very heavy, intense lifting will deplete your muscle glycogen very quickly indeed...

    I always taught full body high rep training was the best way to delete glycogen?


  • #45
    Will Heffernan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭Will Heffernan


    Parsley wrote: »
    At the recent Nutriton X seminar they said very heavy, intense lifting will deplete your muscle glycogen very quickly indeed...
    Define heavy and define intense.


  • #46
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Will Heffernan wrote: »


    If the purpose is fat loss you are looking to burn as many calories as possible.


    Depleting your glycogen stores just doing the strength training that I 'imagine' you are doing would actually be quite difficult.

    The training at the moment is accompanied by relatively low amount of carbs, <150g per day. So the cumulative effect's really what I'm getting at. Each day brings them down that bit more I'd imagine?
    This would be true if you were doing a weights session designed around targeting glycogen depletion.

    That'd be pretty gay tho?
    Nope. Personal preference thing. I hate doing weights in the morning...hate it to the point that you couldn't make me do it. Strength conditioning on the other hand I can manage...but not straight weights/power/strength work.

    Sound, cheers!


  • #47
    Will Heffernan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭Will Heffernan


    Hanley wrote: »
    The training at the moment is accompanied by relatively low amount of carbs, <150g per day. So the cumulative effect's really what I'm getting at. Each day brings them down that bit more I'd imagine?
    That depends on the total amount of work you are getting through and the time between sessions really and your total calorie intake.
    That'd be pretty gay tho?
    Absolutely.
    Sound, cheers!
    No probs.


  • #48
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    Will Heffernan wrote: »
    That depends on the total amount of work you are getting through and the time between sessions really and your total calorie intake.

    Lifting workload varies, 5-6x lifting sessions per week.

    Cardio workload, 5-6 hour of LIT per week.

    Total kcals, around 10-11kcals/lb bodyweight, i.e right on my BMR as calculated using the Katch-McArdle formula.


  • #49
    Will Heffernan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭Will Heffernan


    Hanley wrote: »
    Lifting workload varies, 5-6x lifting sessions per week.

    Cardio workload, 5-6 hour of LIT per week.

    Total kcals, around 10-11kcals/lb bodyweight, i.e right on my BMR as calculated using the Katch-McArdle formula.
    That being the case....do what suits you best...the difference between the 2 protocols for you is going to be almost indistinguishable.


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