Religion is "child abuse" ??

Improbable · 30-09-2010 05:19PM

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

not really as when I say broad teachings Im talking about the ones that most people know the best.

eg love your neighbour as yourself, ten commandments, forgive your enemies, turn the other cheeck etc.

So discounting about half of them which all deal with "i'm a jealous god, i'm a jealous god, i'm a jealous god, you're teaching them to not steal, murder etc. Those are not solely christian values, they're basic morals...

Ghost Buster · 30-09-2010 05:20PM

Des Carter wrote: »

not really as when I say broad teachings Im talking about the ones that most people know the best.

eg love your neighbour as yourself, ten commandments, forgive your enemies, turn the other cheeck etc.

Would they be the 10 commandments the first 4 of which are all "ME ME ME" like the demands of a spoilt child?
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Improbable · 30-09-2010 05:21PM

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

So we should try to teach them as much as we can about all the different world views?

Yes, without focusing on any single view more than any other. Obviously you can't teach them about every single one, but you can try to teach them about the concept of religion in general fairly easily.

Mark Hamill · 30-09-2010 05:51PM

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Would this not be the case unless you teach them every single detail to every single world view and religious/non-religious belief system - which is unrealistick.

Why is it unrealistic? I honestly cant think of why this is so complicated to some people. You dont need to teach them every religion equally, you just need to teach them to approach every religion equally. Give someone an answer and all they will have is one answer. Teach them how to question, and they can know everything there is to know.

Des Carter wrote: »

By Christian upbringing I mean having them go to Mass the odd time, having them baptised/receive holy communion/confirmation and teaching them the basic Christian teachings (ie God loves you etc) - while also emphasizing the fact that this may be wrong and that there are also many other beliefs out there that may be correct.

So by christian upbringing you mean bringing them up only as a christian, expecting a child to understand that while they have to do these things, they may be wrong? How do you think a child brought up like this is going to objectively view christianity? Why do you thin most people stick with the religons of their parents?

Mark Hamill · 30-09-2010 05:55PM

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

We still dont as it has been agreed that the NT is very unreliable - due to it being 2nd hand information, written years after the event and the editing it received.

Your answer to me pointing out that you didn't know the extent of what Jesus said in the bible because of your upbringing being based on picking and choosing is that no-one knows the extent of what Jesus said because the bible is unreliable? Seriously? How does that contradict me?

Des Carter wrote: »

Edit: On another note that thread was written a few weeks ago and since then I have changed my beliefs so please if your going to try and find contradictions in what I say please take them from this thread.

Are you serious? Why would I do that? The fact that your beliefs have changed proves my point.

iguana · 30-09-2010 06:10PM

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Ok same question as last post on page 23?

I've changed my viewing options so this is just page 9 to me, was that the question about if your children find religion?

If so, If any of my children turned to a fundamentalist religion which made them disregard clear scientific knowledge like the age of the earth or they started thinking women are inferior or homosexuals are an abomination, I'd be completely gutted. And if they started teaching that to their children I'd be very worried for them. I'd also hope they never turned to a religion that had them lop off part of my grandchildren's genitals for faith reasons.

However if they entered a more benign faith like neo-paganism or even present day Anglicanism because they had a need for there to be something beyond our knowledge I'd understand it. I can see the desirable aspects of faith. And I do accept that science is still very much in it's infancy and it's possible that just because there is no proof of a god type something it doesn't mean one doesn't exist. But I believe it's wishful thinking to really believe in something so fanciful as god and an afterlife.

I would tell my grandchildren about what I do and do not believe. One of my grandfathers was an atheist and I never got to know that until long, long after he was dead. I would have liked to have known that about him and discussed it with him. (In a quite limited way as I was just tuned 5 when he died but I could have asked him so many "Whys".) Apparently his favourite game was to invite any evangelists who were going door to door in for a cup of tea and then debate them as he was very well versed in religious texts. He was very disappointed when they got sick of coming to his house. I guess he never talked about his lack of religion to me because my grandmother would have been annoyed with him.

(ETA: It's page 10 now.)

Des Carter · 30-09-2010 07:53PM

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Would they be the 10 commandments the first 4 of which are all "ME ME ME" like the demands of a spoilt child?
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

I should have rephrased that to say the broad teachings of the NT.

Des Carter · 30-09-2010 08:12PM

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Des Carter wrote: »

Would this not be the case unless you teach them every single detail to every single world view and religious/non-religious belief system - which is unrealistick.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why is it unrealistic? I honestly cant think of why this is so complicated to some people.

maybe because there are so many of them for a start.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You dont need to teach them every religion equally, you just need to teach them to approach every religion equally. Give someone an answer and all they will have is one answer. Teach them how to question, and they can know everything there is to know.

+1
I agree.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So by christian upbringing you mean bringing them up only as a christian, expecting a child to understand that while they have to do these things, they may be wrong? How do you think a child brought up like this is going to objectively view christianity?

I really wouldnt care how he viewed it as long as he arrived at his decision through critically examining certain thoughts etc and not having this view shoved down his throat. Also as long as he was happy with his beliefs and did not look down on others for not sharing them.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why do you think most people stick with the religons of their parents?

Because most parents are not critical thinkers and do not question their faith and irrationally ignore the fact that they maybe wrong and follow their religion blindly.

Des Carter · 30-09-2010 08:33PM

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Your answer to me pointing out that you didn't know the extent of what Jesus said in the bible because of your upbringing being based on picking and choosing is that no-one knows the extent of what Jesus said because the bible is unreliable? Seriously?

WHAT? Why are you bringing my upbringing into this. I never said what kind of upbringing I had so there is no way you could know what kind of upbringing I had. Please leave this argument out as you know nothing about my upbringing and as for as your concerned the bit I have highlighted is false.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

How does that contradict me?

Where did I say it contradicted you? and when did I say I was trying to contradict you?

QUOTE=Mark Hamill;68273390]Are you serious? Why would I do that? The fact that your beliefs have changed proves my point. [/QUOTE]

do what? contradict me? I dont know and I never said you were trying to I said IF YOU ARE GOING TO - Please stop jumping to conclusions!

What point does me changing my beliefs prove?

30-09-2010 08:36PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Would they be the 10 commandments the first 4 of which are all "ME ME ME" like the demands of a spoilt child?
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

I always wonder why anyone would want to worship someone making 'me me me' commandments, especially when he got into a strop one day and cursed a fig tree

Des Carter · 30-09-2010 08:39PM

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

iguana wrote: »

I've changed my viewing options so this is just page 9 to me, was that the question about if your children find religion?

Apologies for my laziness. The Question was:

Des Carter wrote: »

So if you were a critical thinking Christian who did not force your views on your child in an over-authoritarian way, taught them that there are other possibilities out there and encouraged them to question beliefs if they doubted them - Then it would be acceptable to raise your child in a Christian upbringing?

As for the rest of your post I think I would agree with most of it.

Des Carter · 30-09-2010 08:45PM

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

bluewolf wrote: »

I always wonder why anyone would want to worship someone making 'me me me' commandments, especially when he got into a strop one day and cursed a fig tree

And we were doing so well with the whole not being disrespectful and arrogant while having a rational conversations.

rational · 30-09-2010 08:45PM

I'm religious and DO believe that at least some religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Is athiesm just another dogma?

Do athiests wish to empose thier world view on others as much as religion has done in the past.

Is there a secular/athiest world view that actually has all the answers?

Please when will militant athiests realise that they are as much dogmatic as any religious nut. They seek to empose their world view just as much as the most dogmatic christian.

robindch · 30-09-2010 08:54PM

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

rational wrote: »

Is athiesm just another dogma?

No.

rational wrote: »

Do athiests wish to empose thier world view on others as much as religion has done in the past?

Everybody starts life as an atheist. It's only through the forced imposition of religious views that anybody ever stops being an atheist.

rational wrote: »

Is there a secular/athiest world view that actually has all the answers?

No atheist claims to have all the answers. This is one of the fundamental differences between atheists and religious believers who continually claim to have all the answers.

rational wrote: »

Please when will militant athiests realise that they are as much dogmatic as any religious nut. They seek to empose their world view just as much as the most dogmatic christian.

See answer to your second question.

BTW, it's "atheist", not "athiest".

Des Carter · 30-09-2010 08:56PM

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

rational wrote: »

Is athiesm just another dogma?

Do athiests wish to empose thier world view on others as much as religion has done in the past.

Is there a secular/athiest world view that actually has all the answers?

Please when will militant athiests realise that they are as much dogmatic as any religious nut. They seek to empose their world view just as much as the most dogmatic christian.

I would tend to agree with you and after talking to a lot of Catholics and Atheists the majority of both of them are stuck to their beliefs and will not change their view, even if there was 100% proof infront of them that proved otherwise.

However the vast majority on this thread seem to be willing to at least discuss beliefs and theories in a rational non-judgemental way which is great to see - well until recently!

30-09-2010 08:57PM

Des Carter wrote: »

And we were doing so well with the whole not being disrespectful and arrogant while having a rational conversations.

I'm not being arrogant or disrespectful. It's just funny.

Des Carter · 30-09-2010 09:01PM

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

robindch wrote: »

No.Everybody starts life as an atheist. It's only through the forced imposition of religious views that anybody ever stops being an atheist.

I would disagree with this as it is possible to reach the conclusion that a God exists through other means

Des Carter · 30-09-2010 09:04PM

I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm not being arrogant or disrespectful. It's just funny.

Of COURSE it is

GOOD BOY!

Now go play with the other trolls and let the grown ups talk!:D

rational · 30-09-2010 09:04PM

I'm religious and DO believe that at least some religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

robindch wrote: »

No.Everybody starts life as an atheist.

Hold on a minute, Christians tell me with the same certainty that we all start out as Christians? At least they have the modesty to invent original sin. Atheism goes one better and imbues its adherents with atheistic purity. How very symbolic.

30-09-2010 09:06PM

Des Carter wrote: »

Of COURSE it is

GOOD BOY!

Now go play with the other trolls and let the grown ups talk!:D

Excuse me?

rational · 30-09-2010 09:08PM

I'm religious and DO believe that at least some religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

robindch wrote: »

This is one of the fundamental differences between atheists and religious believers who continually claim to have all the answers
BTW, it's "atheist", not "athiest".

I dont think that most religious people claim to have all the answers as you suggest. answers yes, but not all the answers. In the Christian context it would be sinful to claim to have all the answers. Christians see Jesus as a way of reaching toward the transendant and thus move towards the ultimate reality. This is a journey. Not a destination.

rational · 30-09-2010 09:15PM

I'm religious and DO believe that at least some religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Dont you see that all views are imposed or biased by our surroundings/enviroment etc, even yours, even atheists.

Ickle Magoo · 30-09-2010 09:32PM

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

rational wrote: »

Dont you see that all views are imposed or biased by our surroundings/enviroment etc, even yours, even atheists.

Pray tell how my lack of belief in a god was imposed or biased from my clearly christian majority surroundings/environment?

rational · 30-09-2010 09:39PM

I'm religious and DO believe that at least some religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Pray tell how my lack of belief in a god was imposed or biased from my clearly christian majority surroundings/environment?

All our opinions are formed and developed through our enviroment, not just Christians. I cant comment on your individual case. I dont know you or what kind of upbringing or attitudes you were exposed to.

Ickle Magoo · 30-09-2010 09:43PM

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

rational wrote: »

All our opinions are formed and developed through our enviroment not just Christians.

I've never been anything other than an atheist, it wasn't learnt or developed rather it was the default I was left with...

And if you can't comment on me personally, or anyone else personally, I would think statements such as " all views are imposed or biased by our surroundings/enviroment etc, even yours, even atheists" are rather pointless?

rational · 30-09-2010 09:46PM

I'm religious and DO believe that at least some religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I've never been anything other than an atheist, it wasn't learnt or developed rather it was the default I was left with...

And if you can't comment on me personally, or anyone else personally, I would think statements such as " all views are imposed or biased by our surroundings/enviroment etc, even yours, even atheists" are rather pointless?

I meant "yours" in terms of Athiests in general rather that the singular.

Ickle Magoo · 30-09-2010 09:47PM

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

rational wrote: »

I meant "yours" in terms of Athiests in general rather that the singular.

You've just said you can't comment on me personally, I presume that means you can't comment on anyone else either - and we'd be those atheists you are referring to and then claiming you can't comment on? Huh? Look, the only thing atheists are guaranteed to share, is a lack of belief in a god...

rational · 30-09-2010 09:48PM

I'm religious and DO believe that at least some religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I've never been anything other than an atheist, it wasn't learnt or developed rather it was the default I was left with...

Said with near religious certainty.

Ickle Magoo · 30-09-2010 09:51PM

I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

I don't know what you mean, it's a statement of fact; like saying you've never been a liverpool fan, or pink has never been your favourite colour, or whatever.

rational · 30-09-2010 09:51PM

I'm religious and DO believe that at least some religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You've just said you can't comment on me personally, I presume that means you can't comment on anyone - the only thing atheists are guaranteed to share is a lack of belief in a god...

I can’t comment on your surrounding your upbringing etc, so I don’t know your personal story came to be. I can’t comment on the personal context of how you cam to be an atheist.

Religion is "child abuse" ??

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