An attack on your lifestyle is imminent . .

Drumpot · 06-10-2010 07:48PM #1

Ah yes, the debate on the "attack on the public servants" . . Love that phrase . .

Coupled with the "attack on pensioners", "the attack on social welfare" it sounds like a sacred cow not to be milked . .

Breaking it down quite simply, most sections of society are vulnerable and few, if any deserve to feel that they should be above the pain that is heading our way. . . Not just that, the whole concept of "entitlement" is taken to a whole new level when you consider some of the things said to defend certain self invested arguments.

The phrase of being "attacked" is thrown around simply so people can avoid debate and make their cause look in someway just or noble. . Its all about getting what you can for yourself . . This whole "attacked" ranting is just a self invested group feeling sorry for itself, in a very similar manner to good old John O'Donohue who was "attacked" for just doing what he was "entitled" to do.

Pensioners -

Ah they worked their entire lives for a pension . . Sure we cant touch them . . Eh, I respectfully disagree. . Firstly they worked their lives for a state pension, not necessarily the monetary amount they actually receive today. One of the reasons that the state ramped up their pension was because the country was prosperous, why in gods name should they be protected because they have gotten used to a certain lifestyle ? My one and a half year old son will be still paying off this crisis long after these OAP's have gone away. Why should he have to pay for it when many of them were happy voting FF while their pensions were going up ?

Social Welfare -

As somebody whose family is in receipt and desperatly needs it, I can understand and empathise with those who think it should not be touched . . I disagree and believe that everything should be on the table.

Public service -

Ok . . I have had raging arguments with friends over this . . Their argument and the ones I usually read here -

We did not cause this mess
We should not have to pay for the mistakes of bankers/politicians
I took a paycut to take this job
People in the private sector didnt take the same cuts

There were others, but these are the usual ones I hear.

Ok. .

Only a few people in Ireland had the power to cause this mess, why should everybody else pay to subsidise your salary ?
Refer to answer one & we all have to pay for this mess in some way, why should you be protected ?
The average pay in the private sector is below the public. This means that there are thousands more people on a lower income in the private sector. Because your mates are on a high salary , it doesnt mean the majority of people working in retail outlets, bank branches or in administration positions are earning truckloads. I can speak personally on this point.
Companies that can afford to maintain their salaries have every right to do so. Likewise companies that have had to sack or reduce wages have done so. Why should the government do things differantly ?

You see, the reason that there divisive opinions and an inability for either side to objectively debate the whole thing of "who should take the pain" is because everybody else thinks somebody else should take it. . There is a certain ignorance on both sides, but at the end of the day if you are not happy enough with having a job and knowing you will have it no matter what, you dont really understand the true depth of the pain that can be dished out in this depression our country is going through.

What you think you are worth and entitled to is a matter of perception. Give people something and they will applaud you for it, try to take it away and they will be out with the pitchforks. .

Most people agree that things got out of hand during FF's reign in the 00's, but when start to look deeper its obvious that one of the things, among many, that they got wrong was that they bought the public service unions by giving them everything they wanted and they bought the pensioners (medical cards + pension increases). Its no coincidence that these two groups alone have a huge lobbying power and a strong say in who gets into power. Its also no coincidence that these are the people fighting tooth and nail to keep what they have, laying the blame squarly at the feet of the government, the same government they were happy to follow when it was all give give give . .

The term "blame" is obviously ringing in peoples ears, but I blame the entire electorate for this mess (not any specific section) in some form, some more then others, but few, if any should feel absolved of responsibility. The reason I highlighted these particular one's is because its a tragedy of modern Ireland that sections of society feel that they should be sheltered from this storm and excuse the role they played in the mess, showing complete ignorance or stating that none of them "voted FF" !

Cop on and wake up to modern Ireland . . We are all in this together and if vested interest groups keep banging their drums for their own cause without any consideration for the ramifications, they may end up with nothing if we need state intervention. . . I didnt personally cause this mess directly, but I dont see how saying that and pointing fingers at my neighbour solves anything . .

I think the German people are a shining example of how to overcome adversity through unity. . Even many of the German's who didnt follow hitler (or the one's who tried to kill him) said that they feel they could of done more. . They all took responsibility for what happened in their country and through this they have become one of the strongest economies in the world.

Irish People who say they didnt follow FF just shove it in peoples face and throw stones from their ivory towers, but few of them did anything pro active other then vote for the other lame crowd. .

I dont blame public servant or pensioners for being angry and disgusted with the cuts that lie ahead but it doesnt excuse their ignorance when the financial state of this country is considered. . They need to join the rest of us, as most people in this country feel the same way and havent a choice but to take the pain. Whatever way it is said, the increases that public servants and pensioners received over the last 10 years have come mainly from property taxes of some sort. . We no longer have this monies and its only fair that a correct course of action is taken.

Tora Bora · 06-10-2010 08:00PM

BUT there is going to be no attack on anybody afterall:p

1. Mary Hanafin, has assured us that higher earning families will not loose the childrens allowance.

2. Lenny got the heeby jeebies, and assured the beards, the Croke Park agreement stays in place.

3. Lenny, and Cowan say corp tax will not change.

4. YET 4 billion has to be found ................. where in fcuk's name is it going to come from. Are they going to raid Pee Flynns communion money?

seaniefr · 06-10-2010 08:12PM

Tora Bora wrote: »

BUT there is going to be no attack on anybody afterall:p

1. Mary Hanafin, has assured us that higher earning families will not loose the childrens allowance.

2. Lenny got the heeby jeebies, and assured the beards, the Croke Park agreement stays in place.

3. Lenny, and Cowan say corp tax will not change.

4. YET 4 billion has to be found ................. where in fcuk's name is it going to come from. Are they going to raid Pee Flynns communion money?

hmmmm,, Ivor the driver ..he should be good for a few hundred thou....Wee willie ..whats he hiding under that mustache??....what about getting rid of over half the T.D's, Seanad, all those 'retired' (i.e. on a board of something or other) politician's do they really need the Garda driver and the car and associated support staff which my tax euro is paying for? County councillors..surely we don't need half or less of those.....anyone...?

ardmacha · 06-10-2010 08:43PM

1. Only a few people in Ireland had the power to cause this mess, why should everybody else pay to subsidise your salary ?

Everyone else should pay public salaries in order to avail of public services.

2. Refer to answer one & we all have to pay for this mess in some way, why should you be protected ?

Exactly, everyone is equally responsible and so everyone must pay for it, not just public servants.

3. The average pay in the private sector is below the public. This means that there are thousands more people on a lower income in the private sector. Because your mates are on a high salary , it doesnt mean the majority of people working in retail outlets, bank branches or in administration positions are earning truckloads. I can speak personally on this point.

Shop assistants are paid less than surgeons. Shock horror.

4. Companies that can afford to maintain their salaries have every right to do so. Likewise companies that have had to sack or reduce wages have done so. Why should the government do things differantly ?

Perhaps because it is not a company.

lmimmfn · 06-10-2010 08:51PM

Every year we have all these rumours right before the budget, X will be completely removed for high earners, income tax will go up loads, 2nd homes will be taxed 1k etc. etc.

Then on budget day its not all as bad as was expected.

Its just spin, feed the population worst case scenarios then on the day the budget wont be as bad as expected and people will be ok with it( as opposed to rioting if they werent broken in ). This year is no different. So expect all the cuts across the board but not as bad as the current rumours

Rockery Woman · 06-10-2010 08:56PM

I have a job - glad to have it!

But I know some people with families who are working, and they would be financially better off on the dole than being PAYE workers.

Something needs to be done about this, what is the point of working if you can get medical cards, child benefit, rent allowance etc and not work a day of your life.

This really needs to be sorted out.

I work full-time, pay my taxes, etc. We dont have children. My husband works part-time, unable to get a full time job. He pays almost E100 a week PAYE! he claims job seekers benefit for the other 3 days - he gets almost E100 on that - so they government arent gaining anything from him... weird system!

If I work overtime, its all lost on tax, so I have no real incentive to try earning more money, money that I could be using to help the suffering retailers in this country - keep the economy and jobs going and all that. The days of foreign holidays and fancy restaurants are over for me, not complaining about that but just making a point!

The system needs an overhaul - why pay my husband jobseekers benefit at all? but he needs to do so to "stay in the system"

We dont have a medical card or other similar benefits, we never applied for them anyway - thank God we are both pretty healthy!

So, government, over to you - sort out the system for heavens sake!!!!

The_Thing · 06-10-2010 09:16PM

Drumpot wrote: »

My one and a half year old son will be still paying off this crisis long after these OAP's have gone away. Why should he have to pay for it when many of them were happy voting FF while their pensions were going up ?

Have you claimed children's allowance for your son?

If you have, please tell me why a portion of the tax I pay should go to support your son? He's your responsibility, not mine. Irish workers should not have to financially support other people's children. In my opinion the allowance should be done away with completely.

20Cent · 06-10-2010 09:19PM

The_Thing wrote: »

Have you claimed children's allowance for your son?

If you have, please tell me why a portion of the tax I pay should go to support your son? He's your responsibility, not mine. Irish workers should not have to financially support other people's children. In my opinion the allowance should be done away with completely.

Her son will be paying tax when you are retired so your all square.

dan_d · 06-10-2010 09:23PM

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone....

That Jesus chap was fairly accurate when it came to cliches.

ardmacha · 06-10-2010 09:32PM

If you have, please tell me why a portion of the tax I pay should go to support your son? He's your responsibility, not mine. Irish workers should not have to financially support other people's children. In my opinion the allowance should be done away with completely

It is people like this lady's son that will be paying your pension.

The_Thing · 06-10-2010 09:35PM

ardmacha wrote: »

It is people like this lady's son that will be paying your pension.

He should not have to do that, if I have not provided for my own retirement then it should be my own tough S**t.

Instead of me paying a portion of my taxes towards children's allowance throughout my working life why can't that portion be taken and put towards my pension thereby alleviating her son completely of any pension related tax burden towards me during his working life.

Is there any fundamental reason why the above is not feasible?

Fiskar · 06-10-2010 09:47PM

taxes will fund the 4 billion needed probably as follows

Easy pickings

Property tax of €500 flat per mansion (1.1 million mansions in the state) =0.55 Billion

Water rates of €100 per mansion = 110 million or 0.11 billion

motor tax on those nice new efficient cars up by 20€

Motor tax on those "gas guzzlers" up by 50€

Need a calculator and some CSO stats for these

Pull those (51%-35%) not currently paying tax at all into the tax net to take the pain patriotically along with the rest of the PAYE and self employed workforce.

Cut back on capital spending by 1.5 to 2billion (navan and other rail links)

If necessary pull in a 3rd tax rate, form 12 tax returns are already complicated so why not add to the confusion on tax (it is already 16 pages long and yes, I had to complete one this week)

Brave bold moves (huge savings in this area)

Suspend the senate and associated committees and lay off those expense welding election losers until 2014. Popular

Cut pensions back to 2002 rates. Not popular

Cut child benefits back to 2002 rates. Not popular

Cut off child benefit payments to Eu (but non resident) and non Eu recipients. (Who would complain and how?)

Cut child benifit payments to those earning >200 k for starters, why on earth do they need it? (Who would complain and how?)

Close down the quangos and those earning more than their worldwide equivalents ("Wasters" has a good list of them), (Who would complain !)

Incentivise employment in this country with schemes to get the young and unskilled a chance to upskill and get work. may need to link S welfare payments to it. Popular, everyone (young and school leavers) was used to working between 1992 and 2007, everyone should have a chance to upskill and get work.

Inheritance or death taxes, as in the USA, on the estate value. not popular.

Incentivise "GREEN ENERGY " schemes. In the UK they have started pilot schemes on providing green gas to homes from sewerage plants. Don't know of any here? There are many more ideas to add to this item

Moves not worth considering

VAT increases

and the list could go on and on, some of these items are easy pickings and will happens, the rest is up to your imagination

dvpower · 06-10-2010 09:49PM

The_Thing wrote: »

Have you claimed children's allowance for your son?

If you have, please tell me why a portion of the tax I pay should go to support your son? He's your responsibility, not mine. Irish workers should not have to financially support other people's children. In my opinion the allowance should be done away with completely.

Did the state pay CHB to your parents when you were young?
Did they pay for your primary and secondary education?

Can the state now expect a refund cheque from you?

Gus99 · 06-10-2010 09:51PM

20Cent wrote: »

Her son will be paying tax when you are retired so your all square.

This is the argument always used to justify childrens allowance. Even allowing for the fact that the state pension is indeed funded out of the current account, are we saying that people will stop having children if the allowance was not there?

The_Thing · 06-10-2010 09:55PM

ardmacha wrote: »

It is people like this lady's son that will be paying your pension.

He should not have to do that, if I have not provided for my own retirement then it should be my own tough S**t.

Instead of me paying a portion of my taxes towards children's allowance throughout my working life why can't that portion be taken and put towards my pension thereby alleviating her son completely of any pension related tax burden towards me during his working life.

Is there any fundamental reason why the above is not feasible?

Dorcha · 06-10-2010 10:13PM

Interesting Drompot...
If people take your advice and all pitch in, what will happen? Somewhere down the line when all this is finally cleared up, and many of us are dead, the same thing will happen all over again, because those responsible have not been made to pay.

First of all, before the government starts taking money from the poor and sick (ah, I love those clichés!), they should first of all start recovering the money owed by the developers, every last cent. This can be done by deducting a yearly amount from their income, and if they die before it’s all paid, from their children’s income, and even their children’s children’s income. In addition, all politicians should take nothing but the average industrial wage (and I can tell you, that’s more than I ever got) until all this mess is cleared up. Mr Cowen talks about “sharing the pain”, but all he does is talk. He’s not prepared to suffer the sort of pain that other people are suffering. In fact if he had any honour, he would resign, because he didn’t do the job he was paid to do. Of course honour is something politicians are not familiar with.

If people thought that fairness was going to be practiced, most of them would be prepared to take losses. I see no real fairness in what is being proposed. All I see is unfairness. Frankly I do not expect to see fairness.

Your claim that everyone in Ireland is to blame for the present crisis is breathtaking. (Are you sure your real name isn’t Brian Cowen?) I can only speak for myself. I worked for my income for over forty or more years, until I was made redundant in June last year. (Our factory was closed down when the Government was pumping more than two million euro into the parent company to extend one of their plants in another part of the county in two or three years time. I wrote several letters to a few of our local politicians about it and was ignored.)

I never borrowed money from a bank or building society. Whatever I bought, I paid for. I paid all of my bills on time. If I didn’t have enough money for something, I went without it. And yet you say I should share the blame for what greedy people have done to our country. I absolutely decline to do so. What’s just is just and what this government is doing to people is about as unjust as you can get.

It’s twenty years or more since I voted for a political party. When I began to get older I realised that all political parties are corrupt by nature. The good of the party will always come before the good of the people or the good of the country. I could not support anything like that. I always now vote independent, and I make sure they will not be supporting any party in the Dail.

I’m sure posts like yours warms the hearts of the government ministers, if anything can warm an empty shell. Like everyone else, I may be forced to pay, but I absolutely refuse to say I had anything to do with ruining the country. Have a nice day.

murphaph · 07-10-2010 09:09AM

ardmacha wrote: »

Shop assistants are paid less than surgeons. Shock horror.

...and admin staff in the PS are paid more than admin staff in the private sector, as are cleaners and just about any menial job you can think of. Hospital porters on 35k? To push feckin trollies around? Are you joking me!

hobochris · 07-10-2010 09:27AM

murphaph wrote: »

Hospital porters on 35k? To push feckin trollies around? Are you joking me!

WHAT?

There are many computer programmers who aren't on that money, and they have to spend four years in college learning something, that many do not have the state of mind to do and have to keep learning for the rest of their working lives.

Saadyst · 07-10-2010 09:27AM

I like Fiskar's response. Doesn't have the standard notions of "tax everyone a bit more" - but tax maybe more efficiently.

Personally, I'd like to see the government get the finger out and try to do something about the crazy cost of business here. Rents, electricity, water etc. Stop propping up this self-destructive property bubble and help to deflate it. That's what will bring back competitiveness - lower cost of doing business.

Or they can ignore it as they have seemingly been doing, and let it naturally drop, which will be much more painful than if it was managed.

dan_d · 07-10-2010 09:57AM

Fiskar is quite right.

We have to change our tax system and pay SLIGHTLY more tax. There's no 2 ways about that.

The bit that makes me really, really sick is that we will see absolutely no returns for this extra tax. Firstly it'll be servicing debt. Secondly, unless there are some serious pay cuts in the public service, it will simply be paying the wage bill. Meanwhile, the frontline hospital staff will be cut, A&E waiting times will increase, train and bus services will be cut back to early 90s levels...anything that the public could possibly benefit from will be done away with because the extra tax money will be used to pay the civil service wage bill. The few steps forward we took in the last few years in the areas of Health, public transport etc (and believe me, they were few, far between and hard fought for, given the amount of money swilling around), will be undone.

There's a basic fact out there that people seem to find hard to swallow. Everyone is entitled to a fair wage and working conditions. But there are some jobs that, quite simply, are minimum wage jobs. They should not be dressed up as anything else. We've become very good at expecting the maximum amount possible for everything. As my background is construction - take for example your average labourer. Don't get me wrong - it's a physically hard job. BUT - there is no responsibility involved. No thought. No accountability. So why on earth did we find ourselves in a position where labourers could take home anything up to 800-1000eur a week??? I'm not saying slave wages, I know that the unions are needed to avoid working conditions being abused. I understand that, and applaud it. But it is a non-skilled job. It needs to be paid accordingly. And if you want more money, then you need to go and upskill. Get a ticket to drive a forks, whatever. It's actually that simple. Don't expect to be handed money because you demand it.

The same applies to certain other jobs scattered throughout society. I'm not going to start listing them, because no doubt I'll be accused of encouraging slave labour or something. I don't. But this notion that every single job out there should pay as much or more as those that require further education, just because you have a union to stand up and whinge about it, HAS to be got rid of.

We certainly need to tax more efficiently. And without a doubt the public service needs to be taken apart and put back together. I hear we are seeing the tip of the iceberg with today's stories about waste in the HSE. This is just one account, just one lump sum. I can only imagine what else is going on in there. I imagine that if a thorough, proper review was done by an external group of the public service, we'd shed a lot of jobs from in there and find ourselves with an extremely efficient organisation. It would take a couple of years. Of course, shedding a pile of jobs is not exactly what we want either, but you have to wonder what's worse....increase in social welfare bill, or continue to pour money into the PS wage bill???

(I find it mildly ironic that in the middle of this thread is an ad for a prog. on TG4 about "7 men who signed their lives away for Irish freedom"....)

Conclusion? I'd imagine there are more ways that we can think of to achieve half or more of those cuts that are being discussed, without starting on taxing the ordinary person of Ireland. But I don't imagine there's anybody in there with the brains or the balls to realise that.

Nijmegen · 07-10-2010 10:18AM

To use round numbers...

We earn €30bn in tax.

We spend €50bn.

16% of our tax take is spent to service the debt. Just the interest. And that's rising fast.

There is no way you can increase tax by 2/3 without killing the economy.

There is no way you can cut everything down to size without killing society.

Everyone has a good argument as to why they shouldn't be touched. Some have even better arguments than most.

But the yawning reality is €30bn vs €50bn, and cuts must be made.

Those responsible for this mess should pay with their freedom, not just their money. It is saddening that they will likely pay with neither.

But there aren't enough bankers out there to tax, there aren't even enough TD's expenses to cut to cover the gap between €30bn and €50bn.

We need a more fair and just society. One where people are held to account. One where government waste is treated in a similar fashion to gangland crime. (I'm serious. CAB for expenses and value for money audits.)

A nation in which people are given real hope that things are improving, the structure is being reworked for a better tomorrow, and that when we emerge from this pain and suffering of recession and recovery, we have a country that will not make the same mistakes again. A country that will provide a real and sustainable future for our children.

kippy · 07-10-2010 11:08AM

The_Thing wrote: »

Have you claimed children's allowance for your son?

If you have, please tell me why a portion of the tax I pay should go to support your son? He's your responsibility, not mine. Irish workers should not have to financially support other people's children. In my opinion the allowance should be done away with completely.

This is the kind of attitude I find strange and small minded.
We pay tax that goes towards a lot of things from which the individual taxpayer may never benefit from:
1. Grants to sporting groups and organisations.
2. Grants to the arts.
3. Grants to third level institutions and third level students.
4. Many many other areas that the individual tax payer may not have any interest in supporting.

However all this is a side effect of living in a country such as Ireland and indeed many others. Live with it and accept it or get outta dodge.

I do believe that gertain grants/wages/social welfare subsidies etc are too high and sometimes give to the people who least deserve them. That is what we have to change.

We need to do a number of things all either in a phased percentage basis over a few years and all linked together.

1. Decrease the amount of paperwork required for a small business to set up. Reduce the rates and startup costs for these small businesses and make it a more simplified process for these business to hire people. Encourage startups, make available all those empty state owned (NAMA) office blocks at cheap rents, ensure there is enough PROPER agency support in getting these off the ground. Give companies incentives to hire people (not that WPP bullcrap, actually have the company pay the people they have working for them, even at an incentivised rate)
2. Decrease standard social welfare payments (JSA/JSB) - across the board by 15%.
3. Decrease the minimum wage by 8%.
4. Introduce a standard 5% rate of tax for those who are currently not in the tax net.
5. Decrease the travel and subsistence rates for all civil/public servents by another 20% - very few of these trips are actually required. Ensure video conferencing and teleconfercing are embraced.
6. Decrease the salaries of ALL across the public service by another 5 - 7% (on a sliding scale) - and change the practice of guaranteed (pretty much) annual increments, to a process of ACTUAL performance related increments, where employees will be rewarded for reducing costs, and general performance areas of their jobs.
7. Review the number of middle management positions in all Public/Civil service areas, reduce number of middle management.
8. Review all renumeration for "Boards" of public service/civil service bodies. Reduce across the board by 20% and move towards reducing number of board members on these boards.
9. Review the dail and the seanad. Reduce number of people in both to reflect eu averages.
8. Reduce VAT rate to 15%
9. Reduce energy prices by 3-5% on top of those market driven forces (regulation)
10. Reduce excise duty on fuel by 10% (minimum)
11. A form of property tax is required to some extent. This HAS to be brough in despite the amount of money we are all indirectly paying for property already.
12. Why is the HSE costing us so much money - we need this urgently reviewed, I dont know enough about the operations of the HSE but I know for sure that you can cut the budget of the organisation and it SHOULDNT need to effect front line services.
13. Professional service fees, consultants, solicitors, doctors across the board need to be reduced. Not sure how a budget can force these reductions however.

I dunno, those are mine for a start.
Tonnes of wastage could be cut from public/cival service expenditure without cutting jobs however these would have a direct impact on private sector workers.

mikemac · 07-10-2010 11:17AM

Nijmegen wrote: »

A nation in which people are given real hope that things are improving, the structure is being reworked for a better tomorrow, and that when we emerge from this pain and suffering of recession and recovery, we have a country that will not make the same mistakes again. A country that will provide a real and sustainable future for our children.

You should be a speech writer

kippy · 07-10-2010 11:21AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

You should be a speech writer

Sounds like what Clinton said last week to be honest.

Tora Bora · 07-10-2010 11:29AM

kippy wrote: »

This is the kind of attitude I find strange and small minded.
We pay tax that goes towards a lot of things from which the individual taxpayer may never benefit from:
1. Grants to sporting groups and organisations.
2. Grants to the arts.
3. Grants to third level institutions and third level students.
4. Many many other areas that the individual tax payer may not have any interest in supporting.

However all this is a side effect of living in a country such as Ireland and indeed many others. Live with it and accept it or get outta dodge.

I do believe that gertain grants/wages/social welfare subsidies etc are too high and sometimes give to the people who least deserve them. That is what we have to change.

We need to do a number of things all either in a phased percentage basis over a few years and all linked together.

1. Decrease the amount of paperwork required for a small business to set up. Reduce the rates and startup costs for these small businesses and make it a more simplified process for these business to hire people. Encourage startups, make available all those empty state owned (NAMA) office blocks at cheap rents, ensure there is enough PROPER agency support in getting these off the ground. Give companies incentives to hire people (not that WPP bullcrap, actually have the company pay the people they have working for them, even at an incentivised rate)
2. Decrease standard social welfare payments (JSA/JSB) - across the board by 15%.
3. Decrease the minimum wage by 8%.
4. Introduce a standard 5% rate of tax for those who are currently not in the tax net.
5. Decrease the travel and subsistence rates for all civil/public servents by another 20% - very few of these trips are actually required. Ensure video conferencing and teleconfercing are embraced.
6. Decrease the salaries of ALL across the public service by another 5 - 7% (on a sliding scale) - and change the practice of guaranteed (pretty much) annual increments, to a process of ACTUAL performance related increments, where employees will be rewarded for reducing costs, and general performance areas of their jobs.
7. Review the number of middle management positions in all Public/Civil service areas, reduce number of middle management.
8. Review all renumeration for "Boards" of public service/civil service bodies. Reduce across the board by 20% and move towards reducing number of board members on these boards.
9. Review the dail and the seanad. Reduce number of people in both to reflect eu averages.
8. Reduce VAT rate to 15%
9. Reduce energy prices by 3-5% on top of those market driven forces (regulation)
10. Reduce excise duty on fuel by 10% (minimum)
11. A form of property tax is required to some extent. This HAS to be brough in despite the amount of money we are all indirectly paying for property already.
12. Why is the HSE costing us so much money - we need this urgently reviewed, I dont know enough about the operations of the HSE but I know for sure that you can cut the budget of the organisation and it SHOULDNT need to effect front line services.
13. Professional service fees, consultants, solicitors, doctors across the board need to be reduced. Not sure how a budget can force these reductions however.

I dunno, those are mine for a start.
Tonnes of wastage could be cut from public/cival service expenditure without cutting jobs however these would have a direct impact on private sector workers.

Look, all very laudible suggestions. Left to our own devices such changes will never happen.
Just cut to the chase and call in the IMF. Done and dusted in jig time. If the IMF could stand in the election next time round, there would be so much merit in voting them in.

DublinWriter · 07-10-2010 11:29AM

Fiskar wrote: »

Property tax of €500 flat per mansion (1.1 million mansions in the state) =0.55 Billion

1.1 million mansions in Ireland?!? We are talking about the same 'Ireland' here aren't we? You're not from some parallel universe are you?

Fiskar wrote: »

Pull those (51%-35%) not currently paying tax at all into the tax net to take the pain patriotically along with the rest of the PAYE and self employed workforce.

The problem there is that most PAYE-class workers not currently paying income tax are the lowest paid in the workforce, and are therefore screwed to the wall as it is.

The whole approach to massive levels of cuts is flawed - it's basically the law of diminishing returns.

Crudely put, if the government takes an additional €4bn of taxes from PAYE workers then that's €4bn that's NOT being spent in the economy by punters, hence more job-losses, business closures etc.

I can't remember who, but someone once said that you can't tax your way out of a recession.

kippy · 07-10-2010 11:39AM

Tora Bora wrote: »

Look, all very laudible suggestions. Left to our own devices such changes will never happen.
Just cut to the chase and call in the IMF. Done and dusted in jig time. If the IMF could stand in the election next time round, there would be so much merit in voting them in.

Why do so many in this country think calling in the IMF is the cure to all our woes.........

jprender · 07-10-2010 11:48AM

kippy wrote: »

Why do so many in this country think calling in the IMF is the cure to all our woes.........

I presume it is because the current batch of politicians that are steering the ship are not willing to make the tough decisions that are needed.

They are too interested in keeping certain factions happy / protecting their own career / protecting their political party.

Nijmegen · 07-10-2010 11:48AM

kippy wrote: »

Sounds like what Clinton said last week to be honest.

Riffing on it. I listened to the speech and thought to myself, "Now why can't any of our politicians speak to us that way?"

When you write down and re-read what most of them say, it's baffling.

Tora Bora · 07-10-2010 11:53AM

kippy wrote: »

Why do so many in this country think calling in the IMF is the cure to all our woes.........

I do not think they are the cure for all our woes. I do think massive government current spending reduction is needed NOW.
The political classes are incapable of doing what needs to be done. Too much pandering to whingers and moaners.
Get the IMF in. Job done.
Tell them thanks very much and fcuk off in two years or so.
Lick the wounds, get up and carry on.:o

Should have mentioned ........ keep the telephone number of the IMF in the front page of the contacts book, as knowing our capacity to manage ourselves, we will probably need them again in another 20 years or less

Banned Account · 07-10-2010 12:02PM

Tora Bora wrote: »

I do not think they are the cure for all our woes. I do think massive government current spending reduction is needed NOW.
The political classes are incapable of doing what needs to be done. Too much pandering to whingers and moaners.
Get the IMF in. Job done.
Tell them thanks very much and fcuk off in two years or so.
Lick the wounds, get up and carry on.:o

Should have mentioned ........ keep the telephone number of the IMF in the front page of the contacts book, as knowing our capacity to manage ourselves, we will probably need them again in another 20 years or less

I don't think the IMF would be too good for us to be honest - before they got 'Thatcherised' they would have been, but not now, they'd just try to cut us out of recession which would be no more effective than taxing us out of it.

We could do with someone being called in, but not the IMF I reckon.

Fat_Fingers · 07-10-2010 12:04PM

The_Thing wrote: »

He should not have to do that, if I have not provided for my own retirement then it should be my own tough S**t.

Instead of me paying a portion of my taxes towards children's allowance throughout my working life why can't that portion be taken and put towards my pension thereby alleviating her son completely of any pension related tax burden towards me during his working life.

Is there any fundamental reason why the above is not feasible?

Ah , i like where you are going with this Sir.

Let me see.. i too would like a refund from you if you :
1. Used educational system
2. Used public hospitals
3. Living in once off dwelling in the country , taxpayer would have subsidised delivery of water, electricity , post delivery
4. Relied on police, fire or any other department

Oh and women live longer than men and they are bigger burden to state in their later years so they should pay much more tax.

You see what can of worms we have here...

Dorcha · 07-10-2010 12:24PM

It was Saint Paul who remarked that “the love of money is the root of all evil”. It’s an eternal truth. The love of money is what causes exploitation and strikes and wars. Because someone wants more than their fair share. Excuses are very easily found for this: “I went to the trouble of learning a trade”; “I have more responsibility”; “I have more skills.”

But for what reason does a person learn new skills, learn a trade or accept more responsibility? For the sake of the job? Very rarely. For the prospect of more money? Much more likely.

You can make it seem as complicated as you like, but the essence is very simple indeed. The wealth of the world is not infinite. If there were just one hundred people in the world and one hundred euro and every one got paid one euro, then the wealth would be shared fairly. If, on the other hand, ten people demand and get ninety of those euros, then it leaves just ten euros to be shared among the other ninety people, no matter how hard they work or strive.

Many people say they want to be fair, but they don’t really; they just want more money. Many years ago, I heard Gay Byrne on the Late Late Show make the fatuous remark, “I always say that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys”; this in reference to the pay of politicians. Well, we now have among the highest paid politicians in the world and we still get monkeys. Is anyone surprised? If you pay higher money it is much more likely to attract greedy people rather that skilled people. The skilled people simply get shoved out of the way.

This problem of creating a fair society is thousands of years old and humanity hasn’t solved it yet. Greed is bred in from childhood. It needs a radical rethink to reverse all this. Greed has got to be bred out of the human race, if we are to have any chance. Don’t teach your children to grab; teach them to share.

I am not against individuality; I do not want a place like Huxley’s “Brave New World”; if anyone wants to try out a new idea or create a new invention, then they should be encouraged to go for it. If they bring their ideas to fruition, then the achievement should be reward enough. If they are doing it for money, then their attempt is less than pure and the results will mirror that.

graduate · 07-10-2010 12:31PM

If there were just one hundred people in the world and one hundred euro and every one got paid one euro, then the wealth would be shared fairly.

And after a year some would have 2 Euros and some would be flat broke, having already borrowed against their pay for the next 30 years.

Saadyst · 07-10-2010 12:51PM

Yeah, look, people like the ideals of communism that we'll all be equal etc... but like you said everyone wants a shot at being "more than equal"... more wealthier, more powerful etc. I don't know why people keep trying to paint a picture that this world is so evil etc - because it's not much different from the boom years, just that we've less money.

There is a huge root cause for the mess that Ireland is in at the moment - and that's the politics of the country. It needs to be reformed, it needs to be cleaned up.

Without it, this country is not going anywhere fast.

People want everyone to be able to be held to account - and they absolutely should be.

Politicians should be held to a higher standard. Example: Willie O'Dea lies under oath (perjury?) and he resigns as minister - but stays on as TD??

Bertie is being investigated for longer than a decade? How complicated can it be? How much cost?

We all know and have heard of the crap that goes on. The opposition can't do anything about it - and given the chance, they'd love to be doing the same.

Members of the church found to be abusing children over decades: still in their jobs, no-one held to account, no criminal prosecutions, nothing.

Independent bodies: impotent to hold any of these people to account.

So, what actually has to happen before enough is enough? I don't know, but I'm sure people like I mentioned above are going to have a great time before they find out.

Sleepy · 11-10-2010 09:01AM

Remove Child Benefit entirely. Introduce a tax credit for all parents earning below a certain level (say 50k for a single income family or 25k per adult in two income / separated families) and increase the Welfare payments for dependent children (under JSB/ JSA/ Single Parents) by a matching amount. There must be scores of similar moves which could be undertaken to simplify our tax system and reduce the need for overpaid administrators.

Saves on paying CB to high earners and eliminates the need for a whole section of the Department of Social Protection - make those currently administering it redundant at statutory rates.

Reduce welfare benefits for all adults (whether pension, JSB, JSA, Disability) etc. by at least 10%. This isn't attacking the 'vulnerable' - it's bringing the lifestyles of those we support through taxation down by a commensurate amount that those of us funding them have suffered.

Consolidate the local authorities into 7/8 regional authorities - huge levels of savings to be made through reducing the unnecessary duplication of effort. Only reducing the funding of the new LA's by half of the savings made would allow for more powerful local government letting the TD's focus on the national picture.

xavidub · 11-10-2010 09:58AM

The_Thing wrote: »

He should not have to do that, if I have not provided for my own retirement then it should be my own tough S**t.

Instead of me paying a portion of my taxes towards children's allowance throughout my working life why can't that portion be taken and put towards my pension thereby alleviating her son completely of any pension related tax burden towards me during his working life.

Is there any fundamental reason why the above is not feasible?

Yeah, let's do that. Let's take away all interdependence from people so everyone can make their own way. Because we are all equal after all aren't we. We are all born with equal opportunities, health, life chances, educability etc etc.

In fact, let's abolish society altogether, since it seems to get in the way of the economy, which is the really important thing.

An attack on your lifestyle is imminent . .

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