Irish peoples double standards / hypocrisy

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 12:43PM #1

Ive noticed over the last year but particularly with two recent events that irish people seem to like to see strong protest or something meaningful when its abroad.
The two instances that come to mind are the paint pouring on harney and the driving of the truck up to the gates of the dail.

Most people complain that we are too passive when it comes to taking cut backs but when someone goes a little bit further to highlight their anger then many of the same people will condemn those actions .
Most Irish people applauded the French over the last two weeks for their actions over the last few weeks but if the same happened here people would be up in arms .
Does this irk anyone else? I think these people should decide what they would like to see .

Edit : how could i forget about the student protests , their was minimal violence here but by some of the reporting you would think ww3 had kicked off. Btw im not sure how many students were there with an intent of protesting my sister said they were drinking on the bus up and when the got back to the college there were free drinks for everyone

Noreen1 · 06-11-2010 12:46PM

I have no double standards.
I applaud those who engage in peaceful protest.

Noreen

bonerm · 06-11-2010 12:46PM

Maybe they're not the same people?

admiralofthefleet · 06-11-2010 12:56PM

bloody french, smell like garlic and say haw hee haw

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 12:57PM

bonerm wrote: »

Maybe they're not the same people?

Yes maybe but i got a general feeling of a distain for the actions i mentioned above and a general approval for the french protests . I heard people in the media saying "the french just know who to protest" and " its a throwback to the revolution"
Leaving the comparison aside even , it seems that all you hear on say joe duffy is people giving out about things and then last week when someone went and highlighted their issues the same people come with their accusations. I heard the girl ( her name escapes me ) who threw the paint on duffy's show never got a fair hearing from the start . Connolly biggest fan never gave her a chance , he dosent seem to believe in the use violence , oh the hypocrisy

phasers · 06-11-2010 01:06PM

Most Irish people applauded the French over the last two weeks

Really? I think they're eejits

Riamfada · 06-11-2010 01:08PM

The French chopped the heads off their ruling classes and then went to war with the rest of Europe to find more people to kill. French are crazy!

*historical facts may not be entirely factual

amacachi · 06-11-2010 01:09PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Ive noticed over the last year but particularly with two recent events that irish people seem to like to see strong protest or something meaningful when its abroad.
The two instances that come to mind are the paint pouring on harney and the driving of the truck up to the gates of the dail.

Most people complain that we are too passive when it comes to taking cut backs but when someone goes a little bit further to highlight their anger then many of the same people will condemn those actions .
Most Irish people applauded the French over the last two weeks for their actions over the last few weeks but if the same happened here people would be up in arms .
Does this irk anyone else? I think these people should decide what they would like to see .

Edit : how could i forget about the student protests , their was minimal violence here but by some of the reporting you would think ww3 had kicked off. Btw im not sure how many students were there with an intent of protesting my sister said they were drinking on the bus up and when the got back to the college there were free drinks for everyone

Don't confuse the number of people with how loud and how much they speak.

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 01:09PM

phasers wrote: »

Really? I think they're eejits

How could i forget you make up 51% of the population

RGDATA! · 06-11-2010 01:09PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Yes maybe but i got a general feeling of a distain for the actions i mentioned above

i get the opposite, i guess it depends on who you're talking to

Dr_Phil · 06-11-2010 01:10PM

It's not the Irish, it's people in general.
Well, as a matter of fact societies go to sh*t these days.

Barna77 · 06-11-2010 01:10PM

What about deporting illegal foreigners from Ireland, but at the same time the Irish government wants the US to regularise all the illegal Irish over there?

Double standard winner.

slimjimmc · 06-11-2010 01:10PM

It's easy to applaud something when it doesn't directly affect you. I wonder if those people who were stuck in airports, train stations, stuck in blocked roads or staying near the protest areas were cheering the protesters on.

Many French protests are peaceful but plenty aren't, I don't think these are the kind of images we should be looking forward to seeing

(ok the 407 on fire excluded

).

bizmark · 06-11-2010 01:13PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

How could i forget you make up 51% of the population

Do you?

ejmaztec · 06-11-2010 01:14PM

There seems to be a lot of protest-begrudgery in Ireland. There are so many different groups protesting about this, that and the other (mostly the other), and no group gets universal support across the country.

Here is a collection of comments made by the man in the street after hearing about a protest:

1 Fucking farmers!
2 Fucking students!
3 Fucking teachers!
4 Fucking shinners!
5 Fucking nurses!
6 Fucking unions!
7 Fucking tree-hugging hippies!

etc etc etc.

Now, if all these groups got together, it would be different, but that's not going to happen, is it?

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 01:18PM

RGDATA! wrote: »

i get the opposite, i guess it depends on who you're talking to

My friends and family agree with the actions taken in the french protests and the recent protests here but im pretty sure we are in the minority.
Maybe it is decenting voices that are heard the loudest

amacachi · 06-11-2010 01:20PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

protest-begrudgery

14 replies, I'm disappointed AH.

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 01:23PM

bizmark wrote: »

Do you?

No

muffy · 06-11-2010 01:23PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of protest-begrudgery in Ireland. There are so many different groups protesting about this, that and the other (mostly the other), and no group gets universal support across the country.

Here is a collection of comments made by the man in the street after hearing about a protest:

1 Fucking farmers!
2 Fucking students!
3 Fucking teachers!
4 Fucking shinners!
5 Fucking nurses!
6 Fucking unions!
7 Fucking tree-hugging hippies!

etc etc etc.

Now, if all these groups got together, it would be different, but that's not going to happen, is it?

Well all these groups together is what happens in France, I like to think it ccould work here but I'm not so sure... even the students are divided, have to move away from USI to effectively protest, they're just careerist gasbags. The French are good at solidarity.

maxxie · 06-11-2010 01:26PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

My friends and family agree with the actions taken in the french protests and the recent protests here but im pretty sure we are in the minority.
Maybe it is decenting voices that are heard the loudest

Im with you!

How to unite the voices of the people who really care about Ireland?

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 01:26PM

slimjimmc wrote: »

It's easy to applaud something when it doesn't directly affect you. I wonder if those people who were stuck in airports, train stations, stuck in blocked roads or staying near the protest areas were cheering the protesters on.

Many French protests are peaceful but plenty aren't, I don't think these are the kind of images we should be looking forward to seeing

(ok the 407 on fire excluded ).

Im over simplifying here you cant make an omlette without breaking the eggs. Do you think people should not protest because of the consequences?

Rabble Rabble · 06-11-2010 01:29PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Ive noticed over the last year but particularly with two recent events that irish people seem to like to see strong protest or something meaningful when its abroad.
The two instances that come to mind are the paint pouring on harney and the driving of the truck up to the gates of the dail.

Most people complain that we are too passive when it comes to taking cut backs but when someone goes a little bit further to highlight their anger then many of the same people will condemn those actions .
Most Irish people applauded the French over the last two weeks for their actions over the last few weeks but if the same happened here people would be up in arms .
Does this irk anyone else? I think these people should decide what they would like to see .

Edit : how could i forget about the student protests , their was minimal violence here but by some of the reporting you would think ww3 had kicked off. Btw im not sure how many students were there with an intent of protesting my sister said they were drinking on the bus up and when the got back to the college there were free drinks for everyone

It's possibly two different sets of Irish people. Not all Irish people being equal.

Personally I think the French protests are nuts. They elected a government, let it govern. Policy by street protests are nonsense, the people on the street are a tiny fraction of the population.

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 01:36PM

maxxie wrote: »

Im with you!

How to unite the voices of the people who really care about Ireland?

Naturally its the well off or powerful people who like the status quo and the less powerful peoples voice are not often heard and they arent low enough to engage on the joeeeeeeeeeee duffyyyyyyyyyyy show , the people who i hear on that show often repulse me.

Mrmoe · 06-11-2010 01:38PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of protest-begrudgery in Ireland. There are so many different groups protesting about this, that and the other (mostly the other), and no group gets universal support across the country.

Here is a collection of comments made by the man in the street after hearing about a protest:

1 Fucking farmers!
2 Fucking students!
3 Fucking teachers!
4 Fucking shinners!
5 Fucking nurses!
6 Fucking unions!
7 Fucking tree-hugging hippies!

etc etc etc.

Now, if all these groups got together, it would be different, but that's not going to happen, is it?

You can get a cream for that, I think it's called fukitol.

ejmaztec · 06-11-2010 01:39PM

amacachi wrote: »

14 replies, I'm disappointed AH.

You're just a begrudger:P

maxxie · 06-11-2010 01:43PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Naturally its the well off or powerful people who like the status quo and the less powerful peoples voice are not often heard and they arent low enough to engage on the joeeeeeeeeeee duffyyyyyyyyyyy show , the people who i hear on that show often repulse me.

My granny listens to it, hasnt a clue about anything but religion but will argue you into the ground about everything

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 01:46PM

maxxie wrote: »

My granny listens to it, hasnt a clue about anything but religion but will argue you into the ground about everything

Yes my granny used to love it , giving out about everything but with little knowledge to back it up

ejmaztec · 06-11-2010 01:47PM

muffy wrote: »

Well all these groups together is what happens in France, I like to think it ccould work here but I'm not so sure... even the students are divided, have to move away from USI to effectively protest, they're just careerist gasbags. The French are good at solidarity.

I think the last time that people from different groups got together here was in 1916, but now the "glory-hunters" are too self-obsessed to join with anyone.

slimjimmc · 06-11-2010 01:57PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Im over simplifying here you cant make an omlette without breaking the eggs. Do you think people should not protest because of the consequences?

I'm saying it's easy for people over here to approve of something that's happening somewhere else when it doesn't directly affect them. People attitudes tend to change when it starts disrupting their own lives. If you're (not you personally) stuck in traffic for hours waiting for a protest to pass off I doubt you'll be cheering in support especially if you have no enthusiasm for whatever they're protesting about.

Indeed people are free to protest peacefully about whatever they like, but that doesn't mean they have popular support for it. Sometimes violence is effective at introducing change and may be appropriate (e.g. bringing down a dictatorial government to be replaced with a democratically elected one) but there would have be some really serious gains and popular support for it to be justified, imo.

mikom · 06-11-2010 01:58PM

♫ Double standards show you care.
Twice as much
Twice as much ♫

muffy · 06-11-2010 02:53PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think the last time that people from different groups got together here was in 1916, but now the "glory-hunters" are too self-obsessed to join with anyone.

And people give out when certain groups joins protests..."why are they hi-jacking it?"...it's called solidarity, get a dictionary.

scorpioishere · 06-11-2010 03:02PM

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

bloody french, smell like garlic and say haw hee haw

Did you go and smell them or is it you who smell?:D

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 03:08PM

slimjimmc wrote: »

I'm saying it's easy for people over here to approve of something that's happening somewhere else when it doesn't directly affect them. People attitudes tend to change when it starts disrupting their own lives. If you're (not you personally) stuck in traffic for hours waiting for a protest to pass off I doubt you'll be cheering in support especially if you have no enthusiasm for whatever they're protesting about.

Indeed people are free to protest peacefully about whatever they like, but that doesn't mean they have popular support for it. Sometimes violence is effective at introducing change and may be appropriate (e.g. bringing down a dictatorial government to be replaced with a democratically elected one) but there would have be some really serious gains and popular support for it to be justified, imo.

I take your point and think its true but the protests recently in Ireland have had little if any major disruption and yet many people were up in arms about it. I just think its something in the Irish attitude.

karlog · 06-11-2010 03:10PM

Double standard all the waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 05:13PM

I dont want to start anew thread but would like to get peoples opinions on what is the threshold for people violently protesting or rioting?
Rioting is almost always condemned in Ireland but surely there are times when it is acceptable and more over warranted. Do you think that rioting takes attention away from any given cause and the focus goes on the rioting exclusively ? I feel that peaceful protest is often totally ignored.

muffy · 06-11-2010 05:37PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

I dont want to start anew thread but would like to get peoples opinions on what is the threshold for people violently protesting or rioting?
Rioting is almost always condemned in Ireland but surely there are times when it is acceptable and more over warranted. Do you think that rioting takes attention away from any given cause and the focus goes on the rioting exclusively ? I feel that peaceful protest is often totally ignored.

There is no need for violence. Direct non-violent action is the way to go.

muffy · 06-11-2010 06:00PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

I dont want to start anew thread but would like to get peoples opinions on what is the threshold for people violently protesting or rioting?
Rioting is almost always condemned in Ireland but surely there are times when it is acceptable and more over warranted. Do you think that rioting takes attention away from any given cause and the focus goes on the rioting exclusively ? I feel that peaceful protest is often totally ignored.

There is no need for violence. Direct non-violent action is the way to go.

Noreen1 · 06-11-2010 06:43PM

muffy wrote: »

There is no need for violence. Direct non-violent action is the way to go.

+1.
The violence at the student protest deflected from the message the protesters were trying to get across, in that all the media coverage was about the violence. There was no real discussion of the issues the students tried so hard to highlight.

Noreen

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 06:45PM

muffy wrote: »

There is no need for violence. Direct non-violent action is the way to go.

Sorry im sure what you mean by this ?
Is it doing as much as you can through legal actions

Terry · 06-11-2010 07:10PM

muffy wrote: »

And people give out when certain groups joins protests..."why are they hi-jacking it?"...it's called solidarity, get a dictionary.

No, it's called promotion of self interest.

muffy · 06-11-2010 07:14PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Sorry im sure what you mean by this ?
Is it doing as much as you can through legal actions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action

Nice over view here. I'm completely against any form of violence, I support direct action up to and including vandalism and destruction of property, but myself like to partake of action within the law, where possible.

muffy · 06-11-2010 07:16PM

Terry wrote: »

No, it's called promotion of self interest.

One mans trash is another mans treasure and all that. I don't always agree with certain groups being at marches and such, but we do seem to have forgotten about solidarity.

Rabble Rabble · 06-11-2010 07:17PM

Terry wrote: »

No, it's called promotion of self interest.

It is indeed advertising their brand. The SWP are particularly good at brand advertising, which is why they get to the front of the line, attack the cops, and make sure the flags are flags of their particular political brand and not the subject at hand. ( The idea is, like all advertising, to attract more people to the organisation. It's a sales pitch).

Meanwhile normal students had signs like "Hi Mom", and hand written signs against the cuts.

That said sit-ins are legitimate, as is resisting the cops when the try and stop you sitting in..

EDIT:

Good example here of the difference. Compare:

1) picture 1 - normal folk not looking too angry, banners about the cuts
2) picture 17- crowd is hostile. SWP flags flying. nothing about the cuts just advertising their radical brand.

Dudess · 06-11-2010 07:18PM

Yeah, there was a "Shut down Anglo, not St Mary's Orthopaedic Hospital" march in Cork a few weeks ago, and members of the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Sinn Féin and the Socialist Workers Party were marching alongside them. To me anyway, it seemed more like what Terry says rather than solidarity - maybe it was a combination of both though.

Still though, there is a contingent that likes to dismiss/attack anything left-wing/anti-establishment whatsoever as "hippy waster bla bla" carry-on rather than actually taking a few moments out to think about what the cause is.

cedissapointed · 06-11-2010 07:32PM

While FAS and JOBFIT are stealing jobs from our community i have also noticed this apparent double standard,although im not entirely sure if this is an irish thing,i have seen situations like this in the U.S.A and U.K and even France,the problem is the media will come in and do damage control and make out that these protests are destructive they will only zone in on the fringe groups that go mad and out of control.They will give about 30 seconds to the protest speakers and even then with clever editing try to undermine them..If you are at a protest you don't need to engage with these groups just stick to the central group and there will be no hassles.
Unless your an idiot and try to provoke a fully armed riot squad guard.

Of course there are people that are not going to bother.And well being honest ya it is most of the people in ireland when i was out on the FAS thing i saw few turn up and i went up one day on my own with my banner in tow stating THE GREAT EMPLOYMENT ROBBERY FAS..Nobody blinked an eyelid..

Nobody could be arsed because they are either too lazy or have a seen it all before attitude,or honestly couldnt give a damn..

Our government have robbed us of our future for long enough,with FAS and JOBFIT sucking up the full time jobs that should be available,i mean what business will take full timers on with this employment scam draining public funds..

They are consigning those who are or should be working class to a lifetime of poverty..

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/End-the-FAS-work-place-programme-WWP1-WWP2/109792949040367

Mike 1972 · 06-11-2010 07:57PM

Was a bit surprised at reports of the SWP being allegedly involved in the violence. On occasion Ive met with/become vaguely acquainted of a few SWP types down through the years (dont ask) and while when theyre out protesting (sometimes justifiably othertimes less so) over something every other week and are not not adverse to shouting abuse at the Cops or making a low level nuisance of themselves they tend to draw the line at violence/serious vandalism (unless there are skinheads about).

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

It is indeed advertising their brand. The SWP are particularly good at brand advertising

Anyone find this statement pretty true but highly ironic.

Pompey Magnus · 06-11-2010 08:08PM

Don't forget those people who have the luxury of being able to condemn any form of violent or non-peaceful protests yet never seem to have the balls to carry this on to condemning the 1916 rebels who realised that only violent action could lead to the eventual founding of an independent state (and no, Ghandi doesn't count as proof they were wrong as he had about 800 million pissed off countrymen behind him in a country half way around the world from Britain, if Ghandi was Irish we'd still be sending MPs to Westminster today).

Mike 1972 · 06-11-2010 08:11PM

TBH Id condemn "1916 rebels" (for one thing they were wrong on the violent action/independent state bit) long before Id condemn anything the SWP might do but there you go.

Sharkey 10 · 06-11-2010 08:13PM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Don't forget those people who have the luxury of being able to condemn any form of violent or non-peaceful protests yet never seem to have the balls to carry this on to condemning the 1916 rebels who realised that only violent action could lead to eventual founding of an independent state (and no, Ghandi doesn't count as proof they were wrong as he had about 800 million pissed off countrymen behind him in a country half way around the world from Britain, if Ghandi was Irish we'd still be sending MPs to Westminster today).

Its almost like you cant bring this up with these people , thats why earlier in thread i pointed out duffys hypocrisy by champion connolly and then condeming political violence . This also applies to many polititions.

Pompey Magnus · 06-11-2010 08:18PM

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Its almost like you cant bring this up with these people , thats why earlier in thread i pointed out duffys hypocrisy by champion connolly and then condeming political violence . This also applies to many polititions.

Exactly, to people of a certain mindset one woman is a disgrace for throwing watered down paint at an incompetent minister as it could have gotten in her eyes while Connolly et al are patriotic heroes for shooting at, and trying to kill, young English lads just doing a job. They really can't see how idiotic their stance is.

twinytwo · 06-11-2010 08:19PM

Noreen1 wrote: »

I have no double standards.
I applaud those who engage in peaceful protest.

Noreen

peaceful protest wont work in this country , you will just be ignored. Or by the time it works there will be no bringing the country back

Irish peoples double standards / hypocrisy

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