Motion of No Confidence in Cowen tabled by SF

daravinny · 23-11-2010 01:43PM #1

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/19573
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sinn-fein-tables-motion-of-no-confidence-in-taoiseach-2432168.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/sinn-fein-seeks-no-confidence-vote-482893.html

Time to find out who really wants rid of Cowen. Wonder when this vote will be held.

Kudo's to the Sinners for taking the initiative again.

paddy462 · 23-11-2010 01:57PM

Fair play, they are taking the initiative here.

Wolfe Tone · 23-11-2010 01:58PM

Yet again it is SF standing up.

flutered · 23-11-2010 02:18PM

thankfull some party has shown some initive, our country needs a captain fantastic to lead us through these troubled times, a person who is capable of leadership, dithering has cost us and will cost our great grandchildern dearly, man unt had roy keane, irish rugby had cirian fitzgerald, recently brian o driscoll, look at the leadership shown by some county players in croke park, look at stephen roche his triumphs in europe, sean kelly as well, who in my eyes did the ultimute, gave up his chance of glory in order give a fellow country man a crack at more glory.
have we got a party who can put a captain fantastic into leinster house, imo no, but at least can we have a person of principal to lead us out of this mire we are engulfed in.

daravinny · 23-11-2010 02:20PM

does anyone have an insight here, if cowen loses the vote of confidence, does he have to quit as taoiseach or can he ignore it and limp on.

Surely there must be too much pressure internally from FF back benchers and from other parties and the public for him to throw in the towel soon.

The idea of FF and the greens doing a budget and starting the 4 year plan and then handing over the mess to the new gov makes me sick.

The 4 year plan and the budget should be only done by a gov that has a full support and mandate from the people.

If sinn fein were to oust him, they would be getting my number 1, after O dea, the Bull and the byelection they have shown that they are at least able to be a forceful opposition.

Sulmac · 23-11-2010 02:22PM

Fair play to Sinn Féin.

Let Lowry, Healy-Rae and the Fianna Fáil backbenchers put their money where their mouths are now!

If Cowen loses, he's obliged to go to the President and request the Dáil to be dissolved. It's up to her then whether or not to do it, since he's lost the confidence of the house.

DeVore · 23-11-2010 02:26PM

I'm guessing he'll pass this and I think SF know it too. This isnt a vote on Cowen this will be a vote on the budget and who is prepared to support it.

Personally I think this is playing silly-buggers at a time we really dont need it.

DeV.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-11-2010 02:26PM

Think they should just let the other parties have an input on the budget and vote on it. Greens will pull the plug in Jan anyway.

A general election having already applied for a bailout would be absolute chaos imo.

Uriel. · 23-11-2010 02:28PM

Sulmac wrote: »

If Cowen loses, he's obliged to go to the President and request the Dáil to be dissolved. It's up to her then whether or not to do it, since he's lost the confidence of the house.

That raises an interesting question. A Fianna Fail President with very little time left to serve in office. Might she bail out Clowen and the Fianna Fail Party by refusing to dissolve Government until a more "appropriate" time for the Taoiseach

daravinny · 23-11-2010 02:29PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Think they should just let the other parties have an input on the budget and vote on it. Greens will pull the plug in Jan anyway.

A general election having already applied for a bailout would be absolute chaos imo.

I dont agree, the current lack of confidence around europe and the markets is now coming from the political instability within the coalition, a solid government with a mandate from the people is what we need.

paddy462 · 23-11-2010 02:30PM

I think FG and Labour desereve a shot to lead the next government but voting for FG will not stop me giving SF a vote either. They can't be discounted forever.

SeaFields · 23-11-2010 02:31PM

Just heard an interview with John O' Donoghue on Radio Kerry. He refused twice to say if he had confidence in Cowen, only saying he would make that decision at the parliamentary party meeting tonight.

Overheal · 23-11-2010 02:32PM

paddy462 wrote: »

Fair play, they are taking the initiative here.

Initiative

Sounds more like Opportunism to me. If it was Initiative they would have called for it weeks ago. Not already after An Taoiseach said the Dail would be dissolved.

In a few months time they want to be remembered (and able to campaign upon) as the party that tried to boot FF out all along, etc.

daravinny · 23-11-2010 02:32PM

DeVore wrote: »

I'm guessing he'll pass this and I think SF know it too. This isnt a vote on Cowen this will be a vote on the budget and who is prepared to support it.

Personally I think this is playing silly-buggers at a time we really dont need it.

DeV.

whether he does or not, this will tell the country where their TD's stand, and will also stop any soundbites from individuals trying to hedge their chances with the election coming up.

Its time for people to pin their colours to the mast.

Sulmac · 23-11-2010 02:35PM

Uriel. wrote: »

That raises an interesting question. A Fianna Fail President with very little time left to serve in office. Might she bail out Clowen and the Fianna Fail Party by refusing to dissolve Government until a more "appropriate" time for the Taoiseach

Well she could, but it would be unlikely. He'd have lost support (formally) and have little chance of getting a budget pushed through, so it would be rather pointless.

leeroybrown · 23-11-2010 02:39PM

SeaFields wrote: »

Just heard an interview with John O' Donoghue on Radio Kerry. He refused twice to say if he had confidence in Cowen, only saying he would make that decision at the parliamentary party meeting tonight.

In his case it doesn't matter whether he does or not. If his vote as ceann comhairle is required it will side with the Government and Cowen.

paddy462 · 23-11-2010 02:40PM

Overheal wrote: »

Initiative

Sounds more like Opportunism to me. If it was Initiative they would have called for it weeks ago. Not already after An Taoiseach said the Dail would be dissolved.

In a few months time they want to be remembered (and able to campaign upon) as the party that tried to boot FF out all along, etc.

They could have called it a few months ago but realistically it would not have gotten support. After the weekend and the last weeks events, it's proper order that a motion of no confidence is called in the Taoiseach. At least this way as well we get to see who is still in support or not.

Sulmac · 23-11-2010 02:42PM

leeroybrown wrote: »

In his case it doesn't matter whether he does or not. If his vote as ceann comhairle is required it will side with the Government and Cowen.

It does because he's not Ceann Comhairle any more!

SeaFields · 23-11-2010 02:43PM

leeroybrown wrote: »

In his case it doesn't matter whether he does or not. If his vote as ceann comhairle is required it will side with the Government and Cowen.

He's not the Ceann Comhairle

His statement was in regards to the parliamentary meeting tonight where there are already rumblings on Cowens leadership. This is in addition to the SF no confidence motion which Cowen will have a tight call to make up the numbers also.

Blowfish · 23-11-2010 02:49PM

Overheal wrote: »

Initiative

Sounds more like Opportunism to me. If it was Initiative they would have called for it weeks ago. Not already after An Taoiseach said the Dail would be dissolved.

In fairness to SF, they have been making rumblings along these lines for a while.

oppenheimer1 · 23-11-2010 02:53PM

If he loses the confidence vote, the president will refuse a dissolution in the national interest. She has to, the bailout funding is contingent on the budget being passed.

SeaFields · 23-11-2010 02:58PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If he loses the confidence vote, the president will refuse a dissolution in the national interest. She has to, the bailout funding is contingent on the budget being passed.

That's outside her mandate tho isn't it? She has to be instructed to dissolve the Dail - she doesn't have the power to decide whether it is the "right" or "wrong" thing to do? Is that how it works?

Also anyone know if there has been a time set for this vote?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-11-2010 03:06PM

daravinny wrote: »

I dont agree, the current lack of confidence around europe and the markets is now coming from the political instability within the coalition, a solid government with a mandate from the people is what we need.

I'd say its more the massive banking crisis and deficit myself. All the ECB/IMF heads are against a general election.

I really wish the entire dail could nominate representatives to discuss the best possible budget in a mature fashion. Labour and FG input is essential as lets face it they're going to be the ones in power, though SF should still have input as they have 4 TDs and will most likely make gains in the next election, with a very outside shot of actually being in power.

DeVore · 23-11-2010 03:22PM

SeaFields wrote: »

That's outside her mandate tho isn't it? She has to be instructed to dissolve the Dail - she doesn't have the power to decide whether it is the "right" or "wrong" thing to do? Is that how it works?

Also anyone know if there has been a time set for this vote?

The president can decide that in the interest of governance, a general election will NOT be held and instead a new government can be formed by a coalition.

For example, the Taoiseach goes to the president and says "games up luv, time for an election"* to which the President says "not so fast, you resign and let the Dail pick a new Taoiseach!". In that instance the president simply refuses to call the general election and the Dail sorts itself out with whoever can get the most votes.

Its rarely (ever?) been done but it is an option and it has caused trouble before on several occasions.

Under Article 28.10 of the Irish Constitution, a Taoiseach who has "ceased to retain the support of a majority in Dáil Éireann" (e.g., defeat in a budget or loss of confidence) must either (i) resign, or (ii) seek a parliamentary dissolution. Under Article 13.2.2., where a Taoiseach in such circumstances requests a parliamentary dissolution, the President may "in his absolute discretion" refuse that request, forcing the Taoiseach back to the only other option, resignation. It is worth noting that the President of Ireland cannot ask someone to form a government. A Taoiseach is chosen by a vote of Dáil Éireann and only after that appointed by the President.

Example of an attempt to pressure the President to use it (and guess who's dad is involved!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Hillery#Phone_calls_to_the_.C3.81ras

DeV.

leeroybrown · 23-11-2010 03:26PM

Sulmac wrote: »

It does because he's not Ceann Comhairle any more!

SeaFields wrote: »

He's not the Ceann Comhairle

Of course. It's funny what you forget when you get wrapped up in our economic political mess.

...and surprising how a year can take that entire mess off your mind!

paddy462 · 23-11-2010 03:27PM

When will this vote of no confidence take place?

daravinny · 23-11-2010 03:59PM

not sure, here's a link to the Dail motion, no idea how it makes it onto the order of buisness though.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/ViewDoc.asp?DocId=-1&CatID=139&m=w

cc-offe · 23-11-2010 04:57PM

Surely the 6 month rule shouldn't count in unprecedented times such as these?

oppenheimer1 · 23-11-2010 05:02PM

cc-offe wrote: »

Surely the 6 month rule shouldn't count in unprecedented times such as these?

FG want the budget to pass, they just don't want to be seen to support it as it might hurt then electorally.

paddy462 · 23-11-2010 05:43PM

The Sinn Fein call for a motion of no confidence needs 18 signatures for it to take place. It appears unlikely they'll get 18 signatures. FG and Labour seem to be shying away from this one.

SeaFields · 23-11-2010 05:55PM

paddy462 wrote: »

The Sinn Fein call for a motion of no confidence needs 18 signatures for it to take place.

I think you are mixing up what the FF back benchers need in their parliamentary meeting on their party leader and the motion put forward of no confidence in the Taoiseach by SF to the Dail?

Cavehill Red · 23-11-2010 05:57PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If he loses the confidence vote, the president will refuse a dissolution in the national interest. She has to, the bailout funding is contingent on the budget being passed.

The bailout is not in the national interest!
It's in the interest of gangrenous banks that should be let go to the wall.
Fair play to the Shinners for this motion. Let's see who's prepared to prop up this rotten regime.

paddy462 · 23-11-2010 05:58PM

SeaFields wrote: »

I think you are mixing up what the FF back benchers need in their parliamentary meeting on their party leader and the motion put forward of no confidence in the Taoiseach by SF to the Dail?

Ok, so there will be a vote of no confidence in the Taoiseach?

SeaFields · 23-11-2010 06:03PM

paddy462 wrote: »

Ok, so there will be a vote of no confidence in the Taoiseach?

Sinn Fein have tabled a motion of no confidence in the Taoiseach which will be debated in the Dail.

Fianna Fail (as a party) have some back benchers which intend on proposing a motion of no confidence in Brian Cowen as their party leader in a parliamentary party meeting.

He's getting it from all angles :pac:

steelcityblues · 23-11-2010 06:45PM

They have secured my vote!

FG and Labour have been playing nothing more than soundbyte politcs since 2007,and I will let them know this if they come to my doorstep.

paddy462 · 23-11-2010 07:06PM

That's harsh on FG/Labour. FF being put back in power was a bad result for them in '07. Once the people had spoken there hasn't been a whole lot they could do about it. FF have shot themselves in the foot and have been exposed for what they are. FG/Labour in '97 had the country in a healthy position.

SB-08 · 23-11-2010 07:08PM

Can someone explain why FG and Labour don't support this? If they all support it along with the independents and the FF backbentchers then Cowen will lose the motion and we will have a quick election. The option of keeping FF in to get through this budget makes no sense seeing as that means we will have this unstable Govt until quite possibly March or April. Even if the FG and Labour budget is the exact same - they can still get it passed once the election is over in 3 weeks (if they support the SF motion).

steelcityblues · 23-11-2010 07:11PM

paddy462 wrote: »

That's harsh on FG/Labour. FF being put back in power was a bad result for them in '07. Once the people had spoken there hasn't been a whole lot they could do about it. FF have shot themselves in the foot and have been exposed for what they are. FG/Labour in '97 had the country in a healthy position.

In 1997, John Bruton and Dick Spring were the respective leaders.

Different time to now!

I never have voted for FF, so I don't need to feel guilt there.

kaiser sauze · 23-11-2010 07:13PM

Sulmac wrote: »

Fair play to Sinn Féin.

Let Lowry, Healy-Rae and the Fianna Fáil backbenchers put their money where their mouths are now!

If Cowen loses, he's obliged to go to the President and request the Dáil to be dissolved. It's up to her then whether or not to do it, since he's lost the confidence of the house.

No, he's not, as DeVore pointed out.

SeaFields wrote: »

That's outside her mandate tho isn't it? She has to be instructed to dissolve the Dail - she doesn't have the power to decide whether it is the "right" or "wrong" thing to do? Is that how it works?

Also anyone know if there has been a time set for this vote?

The Taoiseach requests a dissolution and she has the right to reject that request which forces him to resign as Taoiseach and the Dáil convenes to vote for a new Taoiseach.

DeVore wrote: »

The president can decide that in the interest of governance, a general election will NOT be held and instead a new government can be formed by a coalition.

For example, the Taoiseach goes to the president and says "games up luv, time for an election"* to which the President says "not so fast, you resign and let the Dail pick a new Taoiseach!". In that instance the president simply refuses to call the general election and the Dail sorts itself out with whoever can get the most votes.

Its rarely (ever?) been done but it is an option and it has caused trouble before on several occasions.

Under Article 28.10 of the Irish Constitution, a Taoiseach who has "ceased to retain the support of a majority in Dáil Éireann" (e.g., defeat in a budget or loss of confidence) must either (i) resign, or (ii) seek a parliamentary dissolution. Under Article 13.2.2., where a Taoiseach in such circumstances requests a parliamentary dissolution, the President may "in his absolute discretion" refuse that request, forcing the Taoiseach back to the only other option, resignation. It is worth noting that the President of Ireland cannot ask someone to form a government. A Taoiseach is chosen by a vote of Dáil Éireann and only after that appointed by the President.

Example of an attempt to pressure the President to use it (and guess who's dad is involved!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Hillery#Phone_calls_to_the_.C3.81ras

DeV.

Thanks for setting people straight.

paddy462 · 23-11-2010 07:15PM

steelcityblues wrote: »

In 1997, John Bruton and Dick Spring were the respective leaders.

Different time to now!

I never have voted for FF, so I don't need to feel guilt there.

Respect for not voting FF.
No guilt being put out. If I was in FG and Labour I'd be exasperated by FF being put back into power. The opposition have put on as much pressure as they could. I don't think there has been much more they could possibly have done. Both parties actually contest leader elections as well.

steelcityblues · 23-11-2010 07:25PM

paddy462 wrote: »

Respect for not voting FF.
No guilt being put out. If I was in FG and Labour I'd be exasperated by FF being put back into power. The opposition have put on as much pressure as they could. I don't think there has been much more they could possibly have done. Both parties actually contest leader elections as well.

Their softly softly approach on Lisbon, NAMA, and perhaps now the Budget means I won't vote for them. Shame, because i'm not a hardcore supporter of any party.

Even when Cowen goes, the next FF leader will doubtless be another tribal spoofer and fraudster, no doubt of the brown envelope variety!

kaiser sauze · 23-11-2010 07:28PM

steelcityblues wrote: »

Even when Cowen goes, the next FF leader will doubtless be another tribal spoofer and fraudster, no doubt of the brown envelope variety!

When it comes to FF, that is taken for granted.

paddy462 · 23-11-2010 07:52PM

steelcityblues wrote: »

Their softly softly approach on Lisbon, NAMA, and perhaps now the Budget means I won't vote for them. Shame, because i'm not a hardcore supporter of any party.

Even when Cowen goes, the next FF leader will doubtless be another tribal spoofer and fraudster, no doubt of the brown envelope variety!

Many people feel like that. Not the right people though who will create a new party. I believe the country needs a new Liberal Democratic Party but the right people have to want it in order for that to happen.

mgmt · 24-11-2010 12:18AM

steelcityblues wrote: »

They have secured my vote!

FG and Labour have been playing nothing more than soundbyte politcs since 2007,and I will let them know this if they come to my doorstep.

Why don't you ask Jerry McCabe's wife who she is voting for? Why don't you secure a shovel and go look for the missing victims of Sinn Fein/IRA in South Armagh?

steelcityblues · 24-11-2010 12:28AM

mgmt wrote: »

Why don't you ask Jerry McCabe's wife who she is voting for? Why don't you secure a shovel and go look for the missing victims of Sinn Fein/IRA in South Armagh?

Take it you have been fed too much of a diet of messrs Harris, Myers, Cruise O'Brien for years now?

Sad incidents but completely irrelevant to the political climate of 2010!

I'm not even a party member, but they are the only ones in tune with the Irish peoples' frustration right now

In my constistuency (Dublin SE) they won't get an elected member - but at least it won't be a wasted vote IMHO!

Who are you likely to vote for out of interest?

mgmt · 24-11-2010 12:44AM

steelcityblues wrote: »

Take it you have been fed too much of a diet of messrs Harris, Myers, Cruise O'Brien for years now?

Sad incidents but completely irrelevant to the political climate of 2010!

I'm not even a party member, but they are the only ones in tune with the Irish peoples' frustration right now

In my constistuency (Dublin SE) they won't get an elected member - but at least it won't be a wasted vote IMHO!

Who are you likely to vote for out of interest?

Hmm with a Chief-of-Staff of the IRA potentially entering the Dail, these "sad incidents" are completely relevant to the political climate of 2010. Unlike some, I will never forget the suffering these subhumans inflicted on the people of this Island.

ATM, I would likely vote for FG.

steelcityblues · 24-11-2010 12:49AM

mgmt wrote: »

Hmm with a Chief-of-Staff of the IRA potentially entering the Dail, these "sad incidents" are completely relevant to the political climate of 2010. Unlike some, I will never forget the suffering these subhumans inflicted on the people of this Island.

ATM, I would likely vote for FG.

Well, enjoy the mediocrity of Enda Kenny as Taoiseach then!

mgmt · 24-11-2010 12:55AM

steelcityblues wrote: »

Well, enjoy the mediocrity of Enda Kenny as Taoiseach then!

I will endure the mediocrity of Enda Kenny over the butcher Gerry Adams any day.

PomBear · 24-11-2010 12:58AM

mgmt wrote: »

I will endure the mediocrity of Enda Kenny over the butcher Gerry Adams any day.

even though Enda Kenny and the FG party are proud of their IRA roots with Mick Collins being their poster boy

steelcityblues · 24-11-2010 12:59AM

mgmt wrote: »

I will endure the mediocrity of Enda Kenny over the butcher Gerry Adams any day.

Adams is not the party's Leinster House leader though. I'm more a fan of their southern politicians.

What if Labour go in with your party and cave in to the big union heads, further denting the economy? Will you not regret your FG vote then?

kaiser sauze · 24-11-2010 12:59AM

steelcityblues wrote: »

Well, enjoy the mediocrity of Enda Kenny as Taoiseach then!

Once a terrorist, always a terrorist.

Motion of No Confidence in Cowen tabled by SF

Comments