Access for runners on Coillte lands may be curtailed

Micilin Muc wrote: »

You've got to be joking me! Is there anything the State won't do to make a quick buck?

It's a little more insidious than even just quick profiteering. One of the first thing Coillte did when set up in the 90's was to conduct a geological survey of the land under the forests. It's believed the mineral deposits are substantial and extremely valuable- "believed" because Coillte claim they are a private company (this is disputed), and thus are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. So very few have set eyes on the report, or know the true extent of the mineral deposits- exceptions being previous Ministers for Finance, eg. Bertie Ahern, now chair of the IFF.

(disclosure- I'm not aligned to any political party, I'm just highlighting this as a citizen who enjoys the freedom of mountain and trail running).

Glad to have a questioning view mithril: if my original post isn't strong enough to bear scrutiny, then its not well-defined, so I welcome the opportunity to expand it a bit.

mithril wrote: »

I would not focus too much on Bertie Ahern's involvement. It's true that the man would do anything for money, but his political influence with the next government will be minimal.

I don't believe Bertie Ahern's chairmanship is based on his being a figurehead or political avenue, rather he has had access to confidential mineral reports. If state land is to be privatized, lets have full disclosure of those reports, so we can perhaps place a higher value on them than the mooted €1000 per acre.

mithril wrote: »

The real issue is that the next government will have some truly awful choices to make given the state of the economy.
Regardless of your political views, what do you do, while in government if you don't have the funds to keep a cancer hospital operating and you have an option of raising a large injection of cash by selling Coillte or the E.S.B.?

I might equally ask how can the State pay its bill for a new fleet of ministerial mercs, or the Senate, or Thornton Hall, or such generous pensions on top of salary to sitting TD's; without first keeping the cancer hospital operating.

If the assets of the State are to be (best) monetized, I'd prefer those whose policies contributed to the economic downturn weren't prime personal beneficiaries of that monetization.

mithril wrote: »

I am not sure any new owner would necessarily ban public access to the forests. I don't see why they would do this. It would be a PR disaster and make the core assets they have acquired more difficult to operate profitably. They don't want to create a scenario like Shell faced in Mayo where forest roads are blocked by angry protestors.

Shell still got their way, bad PR or no?

These are OUR forests, with rights of way "granted" by a quasi-public gatekeeper (Coillte). When the forests are closed, and the trees felled to mine ore, access will be curtailed surely, if even on only "health and safety" grounds. There have already been exploratory interests in mining for uranium in the Wicklow mountains. Personally, I wouldn't want this to be exploited, but if it was, I see no reason why a private company should take the lions share of profits (as has been Irelands model in selling its natural resources, as opposed to, for example, Scandanavian countries, where the tax take is far higher).

mithril wrote: »

A more likely scenario - which I think you are going to see even if the forest remain in state ownership - is an increased move to commercialise the value of access to the lands which is currently provided free. This will mean pay parking in every forest park and possibly levies on organisations such as IMRA which want to run events on forest lands.

You seem to believe any sell-off of Coillte would retain the status quo (forestry), and a new private owner would extract a return on their investment (partially) through levies. If that was to be the case, I'd almost hold my hands up and say we should take the money, its needed. But I'm already aware of several local cases in Wicklow where Coillte land has been sold to new owners who immediately apply for mining licences and permission, against the wishes of the local community. This Coillte sell-off is about mining, not forestry, otherwise Bertie Ahern would have no intrinsic value to IFF.

(Happy to concede we may just have different views, or that I may be incorrect- either way I know we both care about running freely in the Wicklow mountains)

mithril wrote: »

Other than sand pits , which have a short commercial life, I am struggling to think of any mines still operating in the country. Not sure if Navan is still operating and that's the only one I can think of? Its only going to be a tiny proportion of forest land that is suitable for mining.

There's a mining dispute local to me, where a landowner is seeking to mine aggregate (for 20 years), over the wishes of the local community. His only access for heavy machinery is through Coillte lands and trails, which so far have refused permission, based on the right of access to the community trumping his right of access as a developer. A new owner for Coillte would (IMO) be less inclined to listen to the community, over their shareholders. This is a Coillte-focused right-of-access dispute that is a stones throw from my house, I've no doubt similar access disputes are played out throughout the country.

Incidently, the above location is at the foot of Croghan Kinsella mountain, site of Irelands only gold rush two hundred years ago. Three thousand ounces are known to be found through panning the streams.
Nearby, the Avoca mines sourced huge amounts of copper, making Ireland (for a time), an important player in the world copper market. The mines are now closed, but the local Avoca river is heavily polluted from heavy metals.
I cannot find the source online, but a couple of years ago, the local Wicklow paper named the Canadian company who had been granted the exploritory access rights for Uranium mining rights in the Wicklow mountains.

mithril wrote: »

And with a change in government, comes a new opportunity to protect this through legislation like in the UK. Ruairi Quinn was making positive noises about this previously.

I agree with your earlier assessment that Bertie Ahern's name can poison a project, but nevertheless this bid for Coillte is going ahead. If his involvement causes people to start demanding access is enshrined, then some good will have come of it. Any sell off of Coillte lands should have accompanying legislation defining the "right to roam".

brownian wrote: »

So, yes, they're public (sort of), but they've a pretty poor track record (recent initial efforts at recreation stuff aside). If their land was sold to a third party, with very clear social-value clauses, things could improve a lot. The forests could be profitable, and also improved from a recreation/social perspective, at the same time.

Is it impossible to imagine a situation where the forests are better managed than they are now? Is it possible that such improved management might come from the private sector?

Where is this third party business model that has clear social-value clauses?

I've had recent dealings with Coillte regarding access (for a race), they were very accommodating, and happy for Coillte lands to be open and used for recreational purposes. They've been proactive in this regard for years- in direct contrast to private land owners who may own adjacent lands, and restrict or charge for access (as is their right).

I think your post does Coillte a disservice, they are (and have been) very willing to encourage varied use and enjoyment of their (our) lands. Their recreation policy is part of their remit, and I know of hundreds of trails and loops through their forests, currently open to all.

mithril wrote: »

"Ministers are stewards of these resources and must return them to the people with benefits after their term in office. That includes the forests of Ireland,"

That's the most hopeful thing I've heard from an Irish politicians mouth in years, its almost the antithesis of decades worth of self-entitlement, excuses, ineptitude, etc. Well done Andrew Doyle.

The tender for Evaluation of the Public Goods Value on the Coillte Forest Estate has closed a few weeks back.

Part of the tender states "It is expected that this economic evaluation will be a combination of market research techniques involving a statistically significant random sample of the Irish public and/or focus groups and will provide aggregate sums of the value for the Coillte estate." So if you do get a call from a market researcher about this issue, be sure and engage them on just how much value you put on being able to run freely on Coillte lands.

Micilin Muc wrote: »

What are the 'forest and non-forest assets', as opposed to the 'forest land'?

"Forest Land" is land under forest. Which may explain why Coillte have massively extended their felling of forest's in the past two years; this land is no longer "under forest" and will now be for sale.

"Forest" is the timber, "non-forest assets" includes such valuable commodities as carbon-sinks, which are traded under the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS).

All of this to prop up banks which should have been let fail under the capitalist system they were part of. As of today, I'm planning an exit from this joke of a country.

Cabinet are set to discuss the sale of Coillte next week. A portion of the proceeds are to be sidelined for "jobs stimulus". This is a cynical attempt at softening debate- expect to see earnest faced politicians sidestepping debate on the sale of public land by playing the "What do you want? Jobs stimulus or not?" card.

The real reason is to pay for interest on the contentious €30.6 billion of promissory notes, or State IOUs, which are being used to fund the cost of Anglo Irish Bank and INBS (€16.8 billion in interest must be paid on the loan).

This is the sale of public Irish land, to pay interest on bad private loans, which should have nothing to do with us as citizens. The sale of this land has been prepared for some time- massive felling programs over the past few years with none of the mandated reforestation.

Anyone who enjoys the freedom of running through Irelands forests and mountains, needs to write to their local TD to make their opposition known. A list of members by constituency is here. You've a week to do so, its very important that you make your voice heard. Ireland has suffered too long from apathy, make sure you can say you at least tried to affect some change, and write a letter or email this weekend.

**********

Portion of profits from sale of State assets to go into job creation

HARRY McGEE and SIMON CARSWELL

A MEMO recommending the sale of State assets will be considered by the Cabinet, possibly as early as next Tuesday, following agreement from the EU-IMF troika that a “sizeable” portion may be used for jobs stimulus.

Minister for Public Expenditure Brendan Howlin announced yesterday that there had been a breakthrough on this issue during discussions with the EU Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund as part of the latest review of Ireland’s €67.5 billion bailout programme.

Mr Howlin said the troika had moved from a position where it had insisted the funds could be used only to reduce the country’s debts to a position where it agreed that a portion could be used to create employment.

“We made progress in that regard. We will have sizeable quantities of money available from assets that we can apply to new jobs,” he said during a joint conference with Minister for Finance Michael Noonan on the outcome of the review.

At a later press conference, the EU Commission seemed to play down the concession. Its head of mission Istvan Szekely said plans had to be finalised about the use of cash from the sale of State assets.

“We would like to understand their plans for asset sales and I understand this is in the process,” he said.

Government sources insisted last night that Mr Howlin’s comments had been approved by the troika beforehand. While Mr Howlin refused to be drawn on the extent of asset sales, or the proportion to be used to fund jobs, it is understood the more the Government sells, the higher the proportion of funds available for jobs creation.

In its programme the Government set an upper threshold of €2 billion but now looks more likely to approve more than €3 billion in disposals, including part of ESB. A report prepared by a special group included Dublin Port, shares in Aer Lingus, and parts of Bord Gáis and Coillte in its list of recommendations.

The troika, in its summation, said the Government has met the terms of the €67.5 billion programme so far but that the country faced “considerable challenges” and must implement policy measures.

The Government also claimed significant progress with the troika on the contentious €30.6 billion of promissory notes, or State IOUs, which are being used to fund the cost of Anglo Irish Bank and INBS. A further €16.8 billion in interest must be paid on the loan.

Mr Noonan last night described the promissory notes, with their punitive interest rates, as “abominable”. He said the troika would present a position paper by the end of February.

“What we are working on is an alternative to the promissory note that will reduce the costs to Ireland,” he said. A source said it would mean an extension of the term or a drop in interest rates, or both.

A number of deadlines for the introduction of new legislation and plans for the banking sector have been deferred.

Legislation to reform the personal insolvency regime and a restructuring plan for Irish Life and Permanent (ILP) have been deferred until the end of April, with ILP recapitalisation put back to June.

Stress-testing of Irish banks (the PCAR) has also been deferred from March to November.

The troika highlighted challenges including the weaknesses of domestic demand, high unemployment and an economic slowdown in some of the main trading partners.

As a result, its growth forecasts for the economy had been cut from 1 per cent to 0.5 per cent – just over a third of the Government’s forecast. It still expects the 8.6 per cent budget deficit for 2012 to be met.

Mr Noonan, for his part, said there was no reason to resile from the Government’s own growth prediction.

The ECB again ruled out forcing losses on senior unsecured and unguaranteed bondholders as it would damage confidence in the Irish banking system and could be “very costly”. Anglo is due to repay a €1.25 billion senior unsecured unguaranteed bond next Wednesday.

Mr Noonan said the fiscal consolidation targets had been met by a significant margin, in tandem with the first return to growth in 2011 for three years.

The troika said the Government had delivered a budget deficit of 10 per cent for 2011, significantly ahead of programme targets.

Mr Howlin said the troika was sensitive about the €5 billion in the National Pension Reserve Fund and regarded it, in some sense, as “collateral”. This signalled that some or all of this fund may not be available for Government programmes.

Fianna Fáil finance spokesman Michael McGrath said the real economic test was the number of people on the Live Register. Sinn Féin’s Pádraig Mac Lochlainn said the latest review showed austerity was not working as a policy.