Where do you find rest?

krudler · 26-04-2011 01:42PM

I rest easy at night knowing anything I do in life wont offend the non existant supernatural boogeyman with a penchant for child murdering, mass destruction and demanding people sacrifice their children to appease him in a test of faith.

It feels good.

Galvasean · 26-04-2011 01:45PM

Dr. Loon wrote: »

Am I the only person who finds the OP's insinuations and assumptions mildly insulting?

I would feel insulted if it were not for the great deal of pity I'm feeling. It must be awful that your life is so unfulfilling that you have to lay everything onto embracing the love of a seemingly non-existent sky God.

Doctor DooM · 26-04-2011 01:48PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

i suspect the debate lies more in the difference between material and ephemeral?

Correct, sorry, move along. Tired morning.

krudler · 26-04-2011 01:48PM

Also this video , the opening scene from the movie Contact (if you've never seen it do, its a great movie that does the science vs religion thing very well) it shows how utterly insignificant we really are and no amount of deity worship will ever change that, thats much more comforting to know instead of the notion that we were ever put here with some grand plan by some space wizard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLQF-4uyD4Y

26-04-2011 01:48PM

I am not insulted or offended, I just think it's a worrying and depressing post. He doesn't sound like a happy person at all regardless of the god issue.

krudler · 26-04-2011 01:53PM

Replace the word "god" in the OP with anything else, money, cards, sport, icecream, whatever and the op would have an over depenancy to fill a void, thats bad. over dependancy on invisible space wizards to fill a void, thats good!

the miracles of faith ladies and gents.

Donatello · 26-04-2011 01:54PM

virmilitaris wrote: »

And religion / belief in your god / worship of your god does ?

I could argue that it doesn't in other people since you have stated yourself that sometimes you stray from your god meaning he doesn't always satisfy your aspirations or hopes.

I would not worship your god even if you could prove to me that it was real. I get no comfort or solace from the belief that I am a slave to some other being regardless of his position or powers. I would find such a belief to be the exact opposite, I would find it to be a cause of sorrow not joy.

I stray but God is always faithful. I stray because I give up on Him, I fall away through neglect of the interior life. It's not God's fault, it's mine.

You misunderstand the Christian God. The relationship we have with Him is not master/slave, but Father and beloved adopted son. Big difference and it is the key difference between Islam and Christianity - the relationship of the individual with God.

opinion guy · 26-04-2011 01:55PM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person. Material goods, drugs, sex, alcohol - none of these things are effective remedies against the emptiness that is inside. Yes, they feel good in the moment, but they do not endure. They exhaust themselves, and the soul grows bored.

If you have a lot of money, you can buy distractions - cars, for instance, or houses. Or women. Whatever.

But you are just distracting yourself. You have the money to do it. Great. But even then, you are fooling yourself if you think this is some kind of permanent solution or an effective remedy.

I see the emptiness of the people around me. I see them doing what I do when I stray from my walk with God. They seek to lose themselves in whatever distractions they can find.

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy. This is not something that comes from myself, but rather it comes from my closeness to God and is a gift from Him. If I walk with God, I experience His joy. When I stray from Him, I feel the pull of materialism and sensuality - the desire to fill myself with whatever I can find. I seek to fill the emptiness some other way, though I know it is futile. Only God satisfies.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, for those of you who do not believe in God.

“O Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you.”
- St. Augustine of Hippo

How do you not see that you find happyness in "God", whatever that is, because YOU CHOOSE to find happyness in God, however you have chosen to define that for yourself.

Thing about spiritual fulfillment is you can chose your own delusion to achieve it. For you its Christianity, for the next guy its Islam, for another its Buddhism, for another its whatever.

The actual only point of relevance is that you chose your own delusion. you choose your own meaning to life even if you don't realise you are choosing it. Now that realisation is truly empowering

CerebralCortex · 26-04-2011 01:56PM

Donatello wrote: »

I stray but God is always faithful. I stray because I give up on Him, I fall away through neglect of the interior life. It's not God's fault, it's mine.

You misunderstand the Christian God. The relationship we have with Him is not master/slave, but Father and beloved adopted son. Big difference and it is the key difference between Islam and Christianity - the relationship of the individual with God.

I always wonder do people like you understand the consequences of concepts like causality and omniscience?

Turtwig · 26-04-2011 01:57PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I am not insulted or offended, I just think it's a worrying and depressing post. He doesn't sound like a happy person at all regardless of the god issue.

I think the reason he's coming off as depressed is because he, like most humans, assumes his way of life to be the best and thinks that if others followed it the world would be a far better place. The void he perceives is the disconnect he has between the way the majority of his society act and the way he perceives they should act. After all, if you absolutely believed your way of life to the be one true way wouldn't the fact that others couldn't understand you and see the light to their own salvation break your heart? If only they could see what you see...

Galvasean · 26-04-2011 01:59PM

Donatello wrote: »

I stray but God is always faithful. I stray because I give up on Him, I fall away through neglect of the interior life. It's not God's fault, it's mine.

But God made you the way you are. Therefore vicariously it is God's fault.

Donatello wrote:

You misunderstand the Christian God. The relationship we have with Him is not master/slave, but Father and beloved adopted son.

A father who will make his son suffer in agony for all eternity should he disobey his every will. Sounds like this father is something of a slave master.

MrPudding · 26-04-2011 01:59PM

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

You only think everyone has a God-shaped hole in their hearts because you believe in God

Let's make this clear, holes of any shape in the heart are bad.

Galvasean wrote: »

Are you calling women objects?

Of course, he is a staunch catholic therefore women are mere incubators and incubators are objects.

I find this kind of post, from the OP, to be quite depressing. It invokes a feeling of intense pity in me. I hate that a person can feel so bad that they can post something like that, that they can be so unhappy and so utterly unable to find joy that they must turn to an evil imaginary sky wizard, like a battered wife turns to her abuser.

The world is full of joy and wonder and fulfilment. Material things? Hell yeah! Getting a pay rise or buying that car and motorbike you always wanted... Very fulfilling. Seeing your kids do well at anything? That hits all three. Joy that they have done well and from simply seeing they are happy, fulfilment from knowing you have done something right and wonder because you made that child and that is amazing.

OP, you don't need god, you need therapy. People should not feel the way you do, it is wrong.

MrP

Beruthiel · 26-04-2011 02:01PM

Donatello wrote: »

You misunderstand the Christian God. The relationship we have with Him is not master/slave, but Father and beloved adopted son.

Even beloved, adopted sons grow up eventually and go their own way.

Big difference and it is the key difference between Islam and Christianity - the relationship of the individual with God.

What think ye of Bacchus?
If I ever felt the need to follow an imaginary god, it would be him.

Doctor DooM · 26-04-2011 02:01PM

Donatello wrote: »

Father and beloved adopted son.

Strange, my father has never threatened to burn me for all eternity if I don't love him.

26-04-2011 02:04PM

Malty_T wrote: »

I think the reason he's coming off as depressed is because he, like most humans, assumes his way of life to be the best and thinks that if others followed it the world would be a far better place. The void he perceives is the disconnect he has between the way the majority of his society act and the way he perceives they should act. After all, if you absolutely believed your way of life to the be one true way wouldn't the fact that others couldn't understand you and see the light to their own salvation break your heart? If only they could see what you see...

I can completely see where you are coming from, malty, and I would agree, but I think these parts stood out for me:

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person. Material goods, drugs, sex, alcohol - none of these things are effective remedies against the emptiness that is inside. Yes, they feel good in the moment, but they do not endure. They exhaust themselves, and the soul grows bored.

If you have a lot of money, you can buy distractions - cars, for instance, or houses. Or women. Whatever.

But you are just distracting yourself. You have the money to do it. Great. But even then, you are fooling yourself if you think this is some kind of permanent solution or an effective remedy.

I see the emptiness of the people around me. I see them doing what I do when I stray from my walk with God. They seek to lose themselves in whatever distractions they can find.

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy. This is not something that comes from myself, but rather it comes from my closeness to God and is a gift from Him. If I walk with God, I experience His joy. When I stray from Him, I feel the pull of materialism and sensuality - the desire to fill myself with whatever I can find. I seek to fill the emptiness some other way, though I know it is futile. Only God satisfies.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, for those of you who do not believe in God.

You may still be right though Malty, and I do hope so actually, I do hope it's just a bit of a belief-disconnect than anything deeper. If he posted this in PI for example, I would also be suggesting counselling. Replace 'god' with any other hobby or dependency and it would sound as bad.

krudler · 26-04-2011 02:04PM

Galvasean wrote: »

But God made you the way you are. Therefore vicariously it is God's fault.

No no no y'see God made us in his image, but then gave us the free will to disobey him even though we think that if we do that we dont get into heaven, so we obey him through our own free will given to us by god.

It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Did I say sense? I meant its ridiculous, yeah thats the word, ridiculous.

liamw · 26-04-2011 02:08PM

krudler wrote: »

No no no y'see God made us in his image, but then gave us the free will to disobey him even though we think that if we do that we dont get into heaven, so we obey him through our own free will given to us by god.

It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Did I say sense? I meant its ridiculous, yeah thats the word, ridiculous.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJvFm9B5DPZfo4jacjAh4xAq0jbXj7VTtQsiAjQUSiiL4jFd4Q&t=1

Galvasean · 26-04-2011 05:22PM

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Strange, my father has never threatened to burn me for all eternity if I don't love him.

Must have been one of those, 'new age' type parents.

legspin · 26-04-2011 06:00PM

I generally find it at the baulk end of the table on two hooks, unless someone has forgotten to put it back.

recedite · 26-04-2011 06:04PM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?
I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person. Material goods, drugs, sex, alcohol - none of these things are effective remedies against the emptiness that is inside. Yes, they feel good in the moment, but they do not endure. They exhaust themselves, and the soul grows bored.

If you have a lot of money, you can buy distractions - cars, for instance, or houses. Or women. Whatever.

But you are just distracting yourself. You have the money to do it. Great. But even then, you are fooling yourself if you think this is some kind of permanent solution or an effective remedy.

I see the emptiness of the people around me. I see them doing what I do when I stray from my walk with God. They seek to lose themselves in whatever distractions they can find.

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy. This is not something that comes from myself, but rather it comes from my closeness to God and is a gift from Him. If I walk with God, I experience His joy. When I stray from Him, I feel the pull of materialism and sensuality - the desire to fill myself with whatever I can find. I seek to fill the emptiness some other way, though I know it is futile. Only God satisfies.

“O Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you.”
- St. Augustine of Hippo

Donatello wrote: »

Is it too much to ask of another person, as ordinary and mortal as you are, to fulfil your every desire?

Heroin is not liberating - it is enslaving and destructive. It is an escape from reality. God, on the other hand, and faith in Him, is sustainable and life-giving.

Those things are good, of course. Well, I'm not so sure about Sagan or Hawkins.

Of course there is joy and peace in sunsets and swallows and rainbows. But these things, in themselves, do not satisfy all the aspirations and hopes of the human heart. They point to something more. Even in the best of times - perhaps especially in the best of times - there is this thought of 'Is this it? Is this as good as it gets?' An exam success, a new exciting job opportunity, a new girlfriend, a new house, holidays etc... None of these things, as good as they might be, fulfils absolutely. It would be too much to ask of any created thing of absolute and permanent fulfilment. None of these things last forever.

OP shows a disturbing tendency to refer to women as material objects.
This apparent misogyny could be real, or it could be masking some other sexual frustrations which contribute to the "emptiness" felt.
Only an imaginary friend, perfect in every way, can fill the void.

Donatello · 26-04-2011 09:26PM

krudler wrote: »

No no no y'see God made us in his image, but then gave us the free will to disobey him even though we think that if we do that we dont get into heaven, so we obey him through our own free will given to us by god.

It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Did I say sense? I meant its ridiculous, yeah thats the word, ridiculous.

I'm not highlighting your post as out of the ordinary among those that have appeared, however, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

As regards God, God is love. God gave us free will so we could choose to love Him or not. The choice is ours. If we love God, we will become love and we will live with God forever. If we reject God, we can go it alone for ever.

The important thing to remember is this: even now, those who believe and those who do not believe in God still, while living, enjoy His benefits. But in eternity, we are either enjoying the beatific vision and all the joys of God, or we are eternally separated from the source of goodness itself. It will just be us and our own despair, bitterness, emptiness, and torment.

The caricature of God that is presented by atheists bears no resemblance to the God of Christianity.

opinion guy · 26-04-2011 09:28PM

Donatello wrote: »

I'm not highlighting your post as out of the ordinary among those that have appeared, however, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

As regards God, God is love. God gave us free will so we could choose to love Him or not. The choice is ours. If we love God, we will become love and we will live with God forever. If we reject God, we can go it alone for ever.

The important thing to remember is this: even now, those who believe and those who do not believe in God still, while living, enjoy His benefits. But in eternity, we are either enjoying the beatific vision and all the joys of God, or we are eternally separated from the source of goodness itself. It will just be us and our own despair, bitterness, emptiness, and torment.

The caricature of God that is presented by atheists bears no resemblance to the God of Christianity.

But I gain comfort and everlasting love from the pink elephant playing the eternal piano of joy from his celestial palace behind pluto.
Each to their own.

See - we can all chose to believe whichever nonsense suits us best. Ya see how that works ????

swampgas · 26-04-2011 09:32PM

Donatello wrote: »

As regards God, God is love. God gave us free will so we could choose to love Him or not. The choice is ours. If we love God, we will become love and we will live with God forever. If we reject God, we can go it alone for ever.

Not buying it. The Christian God is a vengeful and spiteful monster.

If I was god, I'd just send everyone straight to Heaven, bypassing the test on earth bit and purgatory. And I wouldn't bother with Hell either, that's just cruel and unnecessary.

Explain to me again how a God that is Love can create a universe where so many people end up miserable?

Undergod · 26-04-2011 09:44PM

I really don't think there's any "women as objects" mentality in Donatello's post.

To address the OP, even if it was the case that people who don't believe in any religion are incapable of a fulfilling life, that doesn'ti tself mean religion is true.

To address another point, if your solace comes from the fact that you have a personal relationship with God, are religious people of beliefs different to yours unable to fill their spiritual void?

biscuiteater · 26-04-2011 09:45PM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person. Material goods, drugs, sex, alcohol - [/I]
- St. Augustine of Hippo

i find rest in the moments that no one says get me this, iron this, will you make me a wee sandwich....when i can sit down and have a cup of tea

i find peace in every act of kindness a stranger does for me or i do for a stranger

i find joy every memory of my children growing up

sex, drugs and alcohol? like religious people don't do those things??? no it's all atheists, yeh right

i didn't have an imaginary friend as a child and i'm too old for one now, and anything i do wrong i admit too and don't say my imaginary friend made me do it

26-04-2011 10:01PM

Donatello wrote: »

I'm not highlighting your post as out of the ordinary among those that have appeared, however, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

As regards God, God is love. God gave us free will so we could choose to love Him or not. The choice is ours. If we love God, we will become love and we will live with God forever. If we reject God, we can go it alone for ever.

The important thing to remember is this: even now, those who believe and those who do not believe in God still, while living, enjoy His benefits. But in eternity, we are either enjoying the beatific vision and all the joys of God, or we are eternally separated from the source of goodness itself. It will just be us and our own despair, bitterness, emptiness, and torment.

The caricature of God that is presented by atheists bears no resemblance to the God of Christianity.

I really, really can't stand this wishy-washy nonsense any more. I used to be able, but now it just turns my stomach. Wake up.

If a person can't find comfort or beauty or rest or peace in all that the physical, natural universe has to offer, then that's a sad, sad person indeed. I feel great pity for somebody like that.

AhSureTisGrand · 26-04-2011 10:38PM

Donatello wrote: »

sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Pardon me, good sir, are you familiar with Two and a Half Men?

ShooterSF · 26-04-2011 10:56PM

I like sex. I like cars. I like fun. If I live to 70 I intend to take up some fantastic hallucinogenics if my body is not up for having fun anymore. If you think my life is shallower than yours have at it, I'll be too busy having fun to care.

sensibleken · 26-04-2011 11:25PM

Donatello wrote: »

sex, alcohol - none of these things are effective remedies against the emptiness that is inside.

what? where are you putting it? You're doing it wrong!

Doctor DooM · 26-04-2011 11:46PM

Donatello wrote: »

I'm not highlighting your post as out of the ordinary among those that have appeared, however, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

As regards God, God is love. God gave us free will so we could choose to love Him or not. The choice is ours. If we love God, we will become love and we will live with God forever. If we reject God, we can go it alone for ever.

The important thing to remember is this: even now, those who believe and those who do not believe in God still, while living, enjoy His benefits. But in eternity, we are either enjoying the beatific vision and all the joys of God, or we are eternally separated from the source of goodness itself. It will just be us and our own despair, bitterness, emptiness, and torment.

The caricature of God that is presented by atheists bears no resemblance to the God of Christianity.

I think you'll find most of the atheists here go to great lengths to listen to what people say of the god of christianity and point out it's contradictions.

I am not desperate, bitter or empty. I find immense joy in the smallest things (on Thursday I watched my dog playing with the local children as I tended to my garden. It was a perfect moment as their laughter sang out in the beautiful sunlight). I pity you that you can't see the perfection in moments like that in life.

Regardless, you may dance around it, but the god of christianity does condemn us for all eternity if we "choose" no to love him (like love is a voluntary choice, how and ever).

Where do you find rest?

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