Where do you find rest?

fatmammycat · 26-04-2011 11:51PM

Donatello wrote: »

As regards God, God is love. God gave us free will so we could choose to love Him or not. The choice is ours. If we love God, we will become love and we will live with God forever. If we reject God, we can go it alone for ever.

.

There are my goalposts, there are many other goalposts but these are mine.

Get it into your skull Donatello, no one here believes your 'god' exists, so to claim your fictional deity has superpowers it bestows on us is just tedious in the extreme.

krudler · 27-04-2011 12:01AM

Donatello wrote: »

I'm not highlighting your post as out of the ordinary among those that have appeared, however, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

As regards God, God is love. God gave us free will so we could choose to love Him or not. The choice is ours. If we love God, we will become love and we will live with God forever. If we reject God, we can go it alone for ever.

The important thing to remember is this: even now, those who believe and those who do not believe in God still, while living, enjoy His benefits. But in eternity, we are either enjoying the beatific vision and all the joys of God, or we are eternally separated from the source of goodness itself. It will just be us and our own despair, bitterness, emptiness, and torment.

The caricature of God that is presented by atheists bears no resemblance to the God of Christianity.

Then its not free will, its free will with an ultimatum, believe or perish.

When you say "go it alone" do you mean wind up in hell? or just eternity without god? cos I've done pretty well without him so far and tbh I'd prefer if I didnt have to spend eternity in the presence of a baby murdering genocidal dickhead thanks very much.

robindch · 27-04-2011 12:02AM

Donatello wrote: »

God gave us free will so we could choose to love Him or not. The choice is ours. If we love God, we will become love and we will live with God forever. If we reject God, we can go it alone for ever.

"Go it alone"? The bible says nothing about "going it alone". Far from it. It actually says that people who are unable to convince themselves that some version of the christian deity exists will spend eternity being tortured in pools of burning sulfur.

Donatello wrote: »

The caricature of God that is presented by atheists bears no resemblance to the God of Christianity.

Not in the slightest. The caricature of the christian deity presented by christians as a deity who loves his little charges, is entirely and trivially inaccurate.

On the contrary, the christian deity is painted -- even by your excellent self in your last post -- as a capricious lunatic who is happy to threaten and inflict infinite amounts of torture if his demands for respect are not met.

This disturbing violence is the prerogative of individuals with the moral sensibility of the mafia and the literal, and metaphorical kindness, of a godfather.

Zombrex · 27-04-2011 12:40AM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person. Material goods, drugs, sex, alcohol - none of these things are effective remedies against the emptiness that is inside. Yes, they feel good in the moment, but they do not endure. They exhaust themselves, and the soul grows bored.

If you have a lot of money, you can buy distractions - cars, for instance, or houses. Or women. Whatever.

But you are just distracting yourself. You have the money to do it. Great. But even then, you are fooling yourself if you think this is some kind of permanent solution or an effective remedy.

I see the emptiness of the people around me. I see them doing what I do when I stray from my walk with God. They seek to lose themselves in whatever distractions they can find.

But only in my walk with God have I experienced true joy - an up-welling in my soul of pure joy. This is not something that comes from myself, but rather it comes from my closeness to God and is a gift from Him. If I walk with God, I experience His joy. When I stray from Him, I feel the pull of materialism and sensuality - the desire to fill myself with whatever I can find. I seek to fill the emptiness some other way, though I know it is futile. Only God satisfies.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, for those of you who do not believe in God.

“O Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you.”
- St. Augustine of Hippo

Jez you make atheism seem a lot more interesting than it really is.

Where the heck is my money, material good, sex with tons of women! I've been missing out on the perks of being an atheist!

Zombrex · 27-04-2011 12:49AM

Donatello wrote: »

Heroin is not liberating - it is enslaving and destructive. It is an escape from reality. God, on the other hand, and faith in Him, is sustainable and life-giving.

That would not be my experience of most religious people. They are slaves to the whims and notions of 40th century BC farmers and warlords. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Some middle eastern priest or warlord decides that today homosexuality is an abomination and 6 thousand years later people who can't separate fact from fiction and still preaching this to homosexual men, making them feel guilty for a beautiful and perfectly harmless desire to love and be loved by those they care about.

That is no way to live. There is very little in Christianity that is life giving or affirming. It is the restrictive oppressive nonsense of ancient man (emphasis on the man bit), men who wanted to control and order society based on their own person opinions of what was or wasn't correct or acceptable behavior and who claimed, like so many before and since, authority from a divine master to justify this.

Donatello wrote: »

Of course there is joy and peace in sunsets and swallows and rainbows. But these things, in themselves, do not satisfy all the aspirations and hopes of the human heart.

Neither does religious faith. Religious people deal with that by relating very un-religious things such as the beauty of scientific modeling or mathematics back to God. Suddenly God gets the credit for everything. But you can equally remove this credit and the thing itself is just as beautify and wonderful.

I do not need to attribute credit to God to find Darwinian evolution, or algebra, beautiful. In fact that takes away from it.

Donatello wrote: »

They point to something more. Even in the best of times - perhaps especially in the best of times - there is this thought of 'Is this it? Is this as good as it gets?' An exam success, a new exciting job opportunity, a new girlfriend, a new house, holidays etc... None of these things, as good as they might be, fulfils absolutely.

Who wants to be absolutely content? That is in itself paradoxical, since part of true happiness comes from the drive, the drive to do more, to learn more, to see just over the next horizon.

People who forsake this, who settle down, go to mass every Sunday, give up trying to experience anything in this life while telling themselves not to worry they will be perfectly content in the next, are the people I genuinely fell sorry for.

Donatello · 27-04-2011 01:19AM

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I think you'll find most of the atheists here go to great lengths to listen to what people say of the god of christianity and point out it's contradictions.

I am not desperate, bitter or empty. I find immense joy in the smallest things (on Thursday I watched my dog playing with the local children as I tended to my garden. It was a perfect moment as their laughter sang out in the beautiful sunlight). I pity you that you can't see the perfection in moments like that in life.

What makes you think that I don't take simple pleasure from viewing a magpie foraging on my lawn in the morning sunshine? Or watching a sparrow gathering my dog's shed fur in order to line its nest? Or the sight of a buzzard swooping low over a country road only to perch on a telegraph pole?

fatmammycat wrote: »

There are my goalposts, there are many other goalposts but these are mine.

Get it into your skull Donatello, no one here believes your 'god' exists, so to claim your fictional deity has superpowers it bestows on us is just tedious in the extreme.

Why the litany of angry posts on this thread?

robindch wrote: »

"Go it alone"? The bible says nothing about "going it alone". Far from it. It actually says that people who are unable to convince themselves that some version of the christian deity exists will spend eternity being tortured in pools of burning sulfur.Not in the slightest. The caricature of the christian deity presented by christians as a deity who loves his little charges, is entirely and trivially inaccurate.

On the contrary, the christian deity is painted -- even by your excellent self in your last post -- as a capricious lunatic who is happy to threaten and inflict infinite amounts of torture if his demands for respect are not met.

Stuck in your own pool of burning sulfur for eternity with no escape sounds like going it alone to me!

strobe · 27-04-2011 01:27AM

Donatello wrote: »

What makes you think that I don't take simple pleasure from viewing a magpie foraging on my lawn in the morning sunshine? Or watching a sparrow gathering my dog's shed fur in order to line its nest? Or the sight of a buzzard swooping low over a country road only to perch on a telegraph pole?

Now imagine a world constantly filled with magpies and sparrows and buzzards till the day you die.

virmilitaris · 27-04-2011 01:32AM

Donatello wrote: »

I stray but God is always faithful. I stray because I give up on Him, I fall away through neglect of the interior life. It's not God's fault, it's mine.

I didn't say it was god's fault. I said he mustn't always fulfill you since you stray which you yourself confirmed.

You misunderstand the Christian God. The relationship we have with Him is not master/slave, but Father and beloved adopted son. Big difference and it is the key difference between Islam and Christianity - the relationship of the individual with God.

Oh really ? Let's test that shall we ?

Christians believe that they must follow the word of god. They believe that he is always right, that his commands must always be obeyed. They believe that if they don't follow god's word and ask god for forgiveness for going against his word that they are going to be punished for eternity after they die. They believe that they are flawed and can never approach the greatness of god. Do you ever call god, the 'Lord' by the way ?

I don't know what kind of relationship you have with your father but that's certainly nothing like the one I have with mine.

Let's take a simple definition of slavery;
A person who is the property of another person being and whose labor and also whose life often is subject to the owner's volition.

Do christians believe they are the property of god ?
Do christians believe they should live their lives according to gods will ?

Donatello · 27-04-2011 01:52AM

strobe wrote: »

Now imagine a world constantly filled with magpies and sparrows and buzzards till the day you die.

Sounds like a birdwatcher's paradise! (I am a birder by the way!)

virmilitaris wrote: »

I didn't say it was god's fault. I said he mustn't always fulfill you since you stray which you yourself confirmed.

Christians believe that they must follow the word of god. They believe that he is always right, that his commands must always be obeyed. They believe that if they don't follow god's word and ask god for forgiveness for going against his word that they are going to be punished for eternity after they die. They believe that they are flawed and can never approach the greatness of god. [You have a very unfortunate image of the good God, one that could be easily refuted by reading the Gospels] Do you ever call god, the 'Lord' by the way ? [Yes. Lord, by the way, is simply a word used in place of the divine name given to Moses at the burning bush. The word was regarded by the Jews as something that could not be spoken, so they used an alternative: Adonai, Hebrew for Lord, a name for God.]

I don't know what kind of relationship you have with your father but that's certainly nothing like the one I have with mine.

Let's take a simple definition of slavery;
A person who is the property of another person being and whose labor and also whose life often is subject to the owner's volition.[God's will is our ultimate good. He is not capricious or vindictive.]

Do christians believe they are the property of god ? [God owns His own creation.]
Do christians believe they should live their lives according to gods will ?[Yep.]

Please forgive me, but all that formatting would give me a sore head, so I just used red type for my comments.

Pygmalion · 27-04-2011 01:55AM

He is not capricious or vindictive.

I'm sure that's a huge comfort to those who live their lives in fear, poverty and bondage, despite supposedly living in a world looked over by a loving, all-powerful God.

The Mad Hatter · 27-04-2011 01:57AM

Wow.

virmilitaris · 27-04-2011 06:44AM

Donatello wrote: »

You have a very unfortunate image of the good God, one that could be easily refuted by reading the Gospels

I've got my image of god from reading the gospels and from listening to christians like you.

God's will is our ultimate good. He is not capricious or vindictive.

Two points.

1. From your own holy book god is not 'good' unless you consider anything he does as automatically good. He committed and ordered others to commit genocide and infanticide, just some small examples of what he is supposed to have done. Christians will defend such actions and claim that this god who supposedly committed these atrocities is 'good'.

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (1 Samuel 15:1-3)

How can you consider that to be 'good' ?

Is something 'good' simply because god does it or commands it ?

Is genocide good ? Is genocide ordered by god good ?

2. Even if he were good and not capricious or vindictive what difference does that make to my point ?

A slave is a slave not because his master is good or bad but because he is subject to his masters will. It makes no difference whether the slave master is good or bad to the slave. He could give the slave the best of everything, treat him like a son and love him but he's still a slave.

Many Americans including Robert E. Lee were famous for treating their slaves well, almost like their own family. Do you think that makes it good ?

God owns His own creation

In other words you believe we are slaves of god subject to his will and forced to love him and obey him or suffer eternal punishment.

To quote Mr Hitchens. I will not be spoken to in that tone of voice.

nozzferrahhtoo · 27-04-2011 08:35AM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

In other people. In life itself. In my next good meal. In learning and education. In a new never before had experience. In Music. Understanding science and just how amazing the universe is. They are all my ones, there will likely be as many answers as there are people. The mistake would be to assume there is one answer that is true for everyone. Self delusion and imaginary friends works for you. Good luck with that. It simply is not works for many of us.

Donatello wrote: »

I think that the most convincing proof that there is a God is the spiritual void that is in each person.

Something that is not there is not evidence that something else is. You can not use a "void" real or imagined to be evidence for your fantasy. You are essentially using a lack of evidence AS your evidence in that case.

However the one thing you said that is interesting, but has been said many times before (Sam Harris being one of the better known names on this forum) is there there is a useful line of inquiry open to us to understand if happiness is possible without basing it solely on giving into our moment to moment whims. There may be a level of happiness attainable that is not contingent upon having ones favorite foods or musics or experiences always within reach.

It is, however, a line of inquiry that we can follow without having to assume anything on insufficient evidence, much less the existence of your imaginary friend in the sky. The main problem here is that when people attain such experiences and emotion, they tend to interpret them in the context of whatever religion they were brought up in.

robindch · 27-04-2011 10:30AM

Donatello wrote: »

Stuck in your own pool of burning sulfur for eternity with no escape sounds like going it alone to me!

No doubt. However, when describing your understanding of the characteristics of your deity -- especially your belief that it will allow somebody to be tortured for all eternity for committing a victimless thoughtcrime -- I think it's best to be honest and accurately describe the reality of your belief, not to shroud it in the soft embrace of a hand-waving euphemism.

fatmammycat · 27-04-2011 10:31AM

Donatello wrote: »

What makes you think that I don't take simple pleasure from viewing a magpie foraging on my lawn in the morning sunshine? Or watching a sparrow gathering my dog's shed fur in order to line its nest? Or the sight of a buzzard swooping low over a country road only to perch on a telegraph pole?

Why the litany of angry posts on this thread?

Stuck in your own pool of burning sulfur for eternity with no escape sounds like going it alone to me!

Why wouldn't anyone get annoyed with you, you spout nonsense, refuse to accept that people here don't believe in your version of a god, then when people take the time to explain their position you waffle on with religious claptrap as if this gives you some from of authority. You speak of 'voids' were there are none and 'emptiness' where none exists, except perhaps in your head. Mind you, your 'evolution is just a theory' line has confirmed what I had previously suspected and I am no longer irked by you.

opinion guy · 27-04-2011 10:35AM

In short - although you probably don't see yourself this way, you are basically acting as a troll on here. If I go onto the Christian forum and take a similar approach as you have here I would get banned fairly quickly

sensibleken · 27-04-2011 10:38AM

Donatello wrote: »

Stuck in your own pool of burning sulfur for eternity with no escape sounds like going it alone to me!

So here's what I dont get. Presumably theres suphur mines in hell, sulphur ignites and burns away very quickly so they'd need a lot. It also releases a lot of gas on ignition. Now considering they've been doing this for thousands of years on a round the clock basis where does all the gas go....or is that what volcanos are?

Dades · 27-04-2011 10:48AM

Donatello wrote: »

Why the litany of angry posts on this thread?

Methinks atheists, like vegetarians or non-stamp-collectors don't take kindly to the idea that our lives are somehow lacking without gods/meat/stamps.

sensibleken · 27-04-2011 10:50AM

Dades wrote: »

Methinks atheists, like vegetarians or non-stamp-collectors don't take kindly to the idea that our lives are somehow lacking without gods/meat/stamps.

true, these people have never tasted by chili tofu noodles

c_man · 27-04-2011 10:50AM

Donatello wrote: »

I wonder where folks who do not believe in God find rest, peace, joy?

Same range of activities as God believers I imagine; friendship, relationships, hobbies etc. etc. I don't feel a 'spiritual void'.

Only God satisfies.

How? I'm an immensely curious person and can't see how belief in a deity provides any level of satisfaction. If anything it seems to increase confusion tenfold!

"You can't comprehend the mysteries of God.... now I'll tell you exactly what his thoughts are on stem cell research" :rolleyes:

Canis Lupus · 27-04-2011 10:56AM

I've never seen the need for a god in my life. I walk around looking at religious people wondering why women(or men), alcohol and good food isn't enough for them :P

genegenie · 27-04-2011 05:35PM

I find fulfillment in helping people (and animals) in need, volunteer work, taking part in a community effort, listening to friends and family who need an ear, spending time with my loved ones.

In other words I find fulfilment in REAL people, not imaginary ones.

Religious people do not have a monopoly on morality.

Knasher · 27-04-2011 05:57PM

Donatello wrote: »

God's will is our ultimate good. He is not capricious or vindictive.

Excluding the times where he is sending us to hell for all eternity for not believing in him. Or when he goes around flooding the world. Or destroying cities. Or deciding that he want his follower to kill his first born son before changing his mind. Or exiling us forever because eve ate an apple. Or taking bets with the devil that involve torturing us to see if our faith wavers.

I don't mind if you believe in the guy or think he is awesome, but if you describe him as neither capricious or vindictive then you mustn't have ever read the bible or even listened in mass.

Donatello wrote: »

Stuck in your own pool of burning sulfur for eternity with no escape sounds like going it alone to me!

Mostly joking with this, seeing as I believe the whole thing is made up, but it's one of my very favourite pieces of science humour. But hey, people who believe in the literal truth of the bible must really be sweating over this.

The temperature of heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is the Bible, Isaiah 30:26 reads,

Moreover, the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days.

Thus, heaven receives from the moon as much radiation as the earth does from the sun, and in addition seven times seven (forty nine) times as much as the earth does from the sun, or fifty times in all. The light we receive from the moon is one ten-thousandth of the light we receive from the sun, so we can ignore that. With these data we can compute the temperature of heaven: The radiation falling on heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation. In other words, heaven loses fifty times as much heat as the earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth power law for radiation
(H/E)4 = 50

where E is the absolute temperature of the earth, 300°K (273+27). This gives H the absolute temperature of heaven, as 798° absolute (525°C).

The exact temperature of hell cannot be computed but it must be less than 444.6°C, the temperature at which brimstone or sulfur changes from a liquid to a gas. Revelations 21:8: But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." A lake of molten brimstone [sulfur] means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, which is 444.6°C. (Above that point, it would be a vapor, not a lake.)

We have then, temperature of heaven, 525°C. Temperature of hell, less than 445°C. Therefore heaven is hotter than hell.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hell.htm

kylith · 27-04-2011 06:33PM

The Streets wrote:

For billions of years since the outset of time
Every single one of your ancestors survived
Every single person on your mum and dad's side
Successfully looked after and passed on to you life.
What are the chances of that, like?

That's what makes me happy, just being alive.

I am an ape, decended from a rat, descended from an amoeba, standing on a speck of dust lost in the infinite vastness of space, and that gives me such a kick you wouldn't believe it.

Galvasean · 27-04-2011 07:06PM

Donatello wrote: »

sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

You have no idea how much joy can be derived from saying that... in a sarcastic tone of voice. :cool:

Zillah · 27-04-2011 08:23PM

Donatello wrote: »

sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

This is a scandalous lie that I have heard repeated time and again.

opinion guy · 27-04-2011 08:26PM

Aside:
Where do you find rest ?

....am I the only one been fighting the urge to post a picture of my bed ???

swiftblade · 27-04-2011 11:49PM

Wow, just wow! If I posted something that radicle (the opposiste of coarse) on the "other" forum, I'd be given the boot.

I genuienly feel sorry for you OP. The hours you will waste in your life. Going to mass, saying prayers, worshiping your god; when that time could be spent with family and friends.

I am in no way an aggrasive athiest, but when I see people (deluded, sorry it's true) putting so much faith in something they assume is real, it makes my blood boil. It's sad.

Donatello · 28-04-2011 12:01AM

swiftblade wrote: »

Wow, just wow! If I posted something that radicle (the opposiste of coarse) on the "other" forum, I'd be given the boot.

I genuienly feel sorry for you OP. The hours you will waste in your life. Going to mass, saying prayers, worshiping your god; when that time could be spent with family and friends.

I am in no way an aggrasive athiest, but when I see people (deluded, sorry it's true) putting so much faith in something they assume is real, it makes my blood boil. It's sad.

Feel your anger Luke. When you understand your anger, you will have made real progress.

liamw · 28-04-2011 12:10AM

Donatello wrote: »

Feel your anger Luke. When you understand your anger, you will have made real progress.

Why do you talk so much ****?

Where do you find rest?

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