From today I can call myself an atheist

28-04-2011 09:31AM

dead one wrote: »

If an atheists do something wrong. I can't blame whole atheist community for that. There are black sheep in every community. If in some muslim counties are ignorant about islam, it's not fault of islam, it is fault of that community/country.

Of course it isn't - it's never islam's fault, right

For a certain part I do agree you can't blame everything wrong on the religion, but if those clerics are quoting her age as a defense of young marriage, and refusing to let the law be changed on that basis, then there is indeed a problem

dead one · 28-04-2011 09:31AM

kylith wrote: »

They're corruptions of Islam, despite the fact that both Judaism and Christianity are older than Islam? That's some trick.

No sir you are wrong here,

You can listen it from mouth of a jewish rabbis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA2N2Iz5ExM

Also see this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g0LPwJ6_ac

Think what is right.

seamus · 28-04-2011 09:37AM

irishconvert wrote: »

Aisha was between 16 and 19 when she was married to the Prophet.

Very debateable. Most sources put her as being under ten years old or at least premenarchal when consummation took place.

In any case, my comment was tongue-in-cheek because I know that dead_one will never bothering answering any question that he's not comfortable answering. You should be capable of recognising a humourous statement when you see one.

irishconvert · 28-04-2011 09:44AM

oldrnwisr wrote: »

I beg to differ.

These hadith are fabricated. Can you seriously account what happened you when you were 6, or 9? Can you tell what age you were when particular events happened in your childhood?

28-04-2011 09:45AM

irishconvert wrote: »

These hadith are fabricated. Can you seriously account what happened you when you were 6, or 9? Can you tell what age you were when particular events happened in your childhood?

If I was married off at age 6, you can sure as hell bet I'd remember it...

(and yes, can't everyone?

)

Delirium · 28-04-2011 09:47AM

irishconvert wrote: »

These hadith are fabricated. Can you seriously account what happened you when you were 6, or 9? Can you tell what age you were when particular events happened in your childhood?

With all due respect, leaving the hadith out of this for the moment, I don't think any child would forget having sex with an adult at such a young age or what age they were when it happened.

oldrnwisr · 28-04-2011 09:51AM

irishconvert wrote: »

These hadith are fabricated. Can you seriously account what happened you when you were 6, or 9? Can you tell what age you were when particular events happened in your childhood?

Oh, right fabricated. I must be getting that Sahih al-Bukhari mixed up with this one:

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/hadith/bukhari/index.html

“The most authentic book after the Holy Qur’an.” This is the conclusion that every learned religious Scholar came to. No matter how great these Scholars were, they were forced to unanimously agree that ‘Sahih Al-Bukhari’ is the most authentic work in Hadith literature ever compiled.

I don't suppose you have evidence of this fabrication do you?

Also, to answer your other questions, yes I can remember what happened when I was six and nine and yes I can remember what age I was when particular events happened. I definitely would have remembered being molested by some muslim nutter though.

irishconvert · 28-04-2011 09:52AM

bluewolf wrote: »

If I was married off at age 6, you can sure as hell bet I'd remember it...

(and yes, can't everyone? )

koth wrote: »

With all due respect, leaving the hadith out of this for the moment, I don't think any child would forget having sex with an adult at such a young age or what age they were when it happened.

Ok, well it is a matter of opinion which neither of us can prove. I know I can't remember what age I was when certain events happened in my childhood.

In any case, the hadith have been fabricated, Aisha simply was closer to late teens when she was married.

Dades · 28-04-2011 09:53AM

dead one wrote: »

If an atheists do something wrong. I can't blame whole atheist community for that. There are black sheep in every community. If in some muslim counties are ignorant about islam, it's not fault of islam, it is fault of that community/country.

Which countries are not ignorant of Islam?

The Mad Hatter · 28-04-2011 09:55AM

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, well it is a matter of opinion which neither of us can prove. I know I can't remember what age I was when certain events happened in my childhood.

In any case, the hadith have been fabricated, Aisha simply was closer to late teens when she was married.

Evidence?

28-04-2011 09:56AM

irishconvert wrote: »

In any case, the hadith have been fabricated, Aisha simply was closer to late teens when she was married.

Based on apologist writings originating from post-"marrying young children isn't ok anymore" times?

irishconvert · 28-04-2011 09:58AM

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Oh, right fabricated. I must be getting that Sahih al-Bukhari mixed up with this one:

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/hadith/bukhari/index.html

I don't suppose you have evidence of this fabrication do you?

From respected scholar Imran Hosein:

Fabricated Ahadith on this matter have crept into even the most reliable collection of Hadith, i.e. the Sahih of Imam al-Bukhari. The cunning enemies, who have guidance from the evil mastermind himself, i.e., Dajjal the false Messiah, are already using fabricated Ahadith to wage war on Islam. There are Ahadith in Sahih Bukhari that declare that Prophet Muhammad married Aisha (radiallahu ‘anha) when she was six years of age and consummated the marriage when she was nine. We seek refuge with Allah Most High from such falsehood.

The fact is that there was no need for a marriage ceremony since Allah Himself chose her as a wife for the Prophet:

Narrated ‘Aisha: Allah’s Apostle said (to me), “You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, ‘This is your wife.’ I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, ‘If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.’” (Sahih Bukhari)

And so it is false to say that the Prophet took a decision to marry her when she was six years of age. He did not. Secondly, no marriage ceremony could have taken place at the age of six since a marriage contract with a girl aged six would be invalid. Why so? This is so because a (virgin) woman in particular (as well as any other woman in general) cannot be married against her will and she cannot give her consent at an age when her evidence would be legally inadmissible. Even if the argument is raised that a marriage can be contracted with a six-year-old girl but with the proviso that she has the option to either confirm or reject the marriage when she reaches the age of puberty, our response would be that such a contract cannot be described as a marriage. Rather it represents an offer or proposal of marriage that can only be accepted at the time when the girl has reached the age of puberty.

After the news was communicated in the dream that Allah Most High had chosen her as a wife for the Prophet, she remained with her parents until she reached the age of puberty. Sometime thereafter she was taken to live with the Prophet as his wife and it was at that time that the marriage was consummated. There can be absolutely no objections to such consummation of a marriage on the part of believers who worship the One God since He, Allah, Himself waited until Mary had reached that age, i.e., the age of puberty, and then sometime after that He caused her to experience the immaculate conception.

All that now remains is for us to do is to demonstrate that girls in Arabia never reached puberty in normal circumstances at the age of nine, and that there is no evidence to support the view that this (the case of the blessed mother of the believers) was an abnormal case of early puberty. That would be sufficient to invalidate or, at least, to cast grave doubt on the authenticity of those Ahadith.

seamus · 28-04-2011 09:59AM

irishconvert wrote: »

I know I can't remember what age I was when certain events happened in my childhood.

To be fair, while I agree with your idea, there's no possible way I could get confused about whether an event happened when I was six or 16.
After the age of nine or ten, I could probably tell you when something occured to within a year or so. For events after age 14, I'd probably get it accurate to within a couple of months.

I can't see how someone could possibly have something happen at 16/19 and attribute it to happening at age 6 or 9. You're an entirely different person in those two brackets; one is a child, the other is an adult (more or less).

dead one · 28-04-2011 10:04AM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Evidence?

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.

There are evidence in this links

http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/holy-prophet-mohammad-pbuhs-marriages-2.html

boatbuilder · 28-04-2011 10:19AM

Haven't read the entire thread, just the first post and wanted to reply to some of it.
One question was why doesn't the church address evolution.
Well, the church does address it, but maybe not in the way that people want.
People generally nowadays want a scientific explanation for everything and you have to realise that no church in the world is going to provide a scientific explanation that satisfies you, because a reliance on science rules out God's involvement.
Science is a human way of "making sense" of the world and it now pretty much engrained into most people, that if science can't explain something, it can't be true. It reminds me of the old story about the boy in the classroom saying to the teacher...I don't believe in God because I can't see him. The teacher said....Do you have a brain? The boy said "of course I do". The teacher replied...."well I haven't seen it so I believe you have no brain".

My point is that the theory of evolution is the result of people's lack of belief in something supernatural. Once you rule out the supernatural, there is no explanation for the world....hence the popularity of evolution (which has many many many flaws). If you believe in God, then God's version makes sense. If you don't then its evolution for you. It basically boils down to that. If you believed in God in the first place, you would acknowledge that humans don't and can't know everything about the world and that all we are really doing is scratching the surface with our scientific reasoning. The world is more complex than we realise and its up to the individual to decide if billions of amazingly complex things exist as a result of chance, or if it was created by God.

I respect your right to believe what you want to but if you are wrong, the consequences for you when you die are not good to say the least. For people who believe in God, the consequences for them if they are wrong are nil.

TwoShedsJackson · 28-04-2011 10:30AM

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, well it is a matter of opinion which neither of us can prove. I know I can't remember what age I was when certain events happened in my childhood.

In any case, the hadith have been fabricated, Aisha simply was closer to late teens when she was married.

Already we're on to the 'my Holy Book is true and the word of God!! Except for that bit about girls being married at age 6/eating shellfish/wearing garments woven of two different cloths etc. etc. etc. I just ignore that bit or say 'oh that's obviously a metaphor' because it no longer suits me or my morals!'

Dades · 28-04-2011 10:31AM

boatbuilder wrote: »

It reminds me of the old story about the boy in the classroom saying to the teacher...I don't believe in God because I can't see him. The teacher said....Do you have a brain? The boy said "of course I do". The teacher replied...."well I haven't seen it so I believe you have no brain".

If the teacher had a Computerized Axial Tomography Scanner he could see the child's brain. Or a baseball bat.

Analogy FAIL.

oldrnwisr · 28-04-2011 10:31AM

irishconvert wrote: »

From respected scholar Imran Hosein:

I didn't ask for an appeal to authority, I asked for evidence. Where is the textual evidence that the Sahih al-Bukhari is fabricated and unreliable. Quoting one scholars opinion isn't going to get you anywhere.

OK, though, for the moment I will wait for the evidence that the Sahih Al-Bukhari was fabricated. In the meantime, maybe you can provide evidence for the fabrication of these as well:

SAHIH MUSLIM

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309; see also 3310)

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

SUNAN ABU DAWUD

Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said: Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4915)

SUNAN NASA‘I

… When Hadrat Aisha passed nine years of marriage life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness… ‘A’isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven. She saw the rules of four Caliphs in her lifetime. She died on Ramadan 58 A.H. during the Caliphate of Hadrat Amir Mu‘awiya… (Sunan Nasa'i: English translation with Arabic Text, compiled by Imam Abu Abd-ur-Rahman Ahmad Nasa'i, rendered into English by Muhammad Iqbal Siddiqui [Kazi Publication, 121-Zulqarnain Chambers, Gampat Road, Lahore, Pakistan; first edition, 1994], Volume 1, p. 108)

SUNAN IBN-I-MAJAH

1876. ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) is reported to have said: Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) contracted marriage with me while I was (yet) a six years I]sic[/I old girl. Then we arrived at Medina and stayed with Banu Harith b. Khazraj. I fell victim to fever; then my hair (of the head fell off (and became scattered). Then they became plenty and hanged down upto I]sic[/I the earlobes. My mother ‘Umm Ruman came to me while I was (playing) in a swing alongwith I]sic[/I my play-mates. She (the mother) called me loudly. I went to her and I did not know what he I]sic[/I wanted. She seized my hand and stopped me at the door of the house and I was hearing I]sic[/I violently until the agitation of my heart was over. Then she took some water and wiped it over my face and head. Then she admitted me to the house when some woman I]sic[/I of Ansar were present in the house. They said, "You have entered with blessings and good fortune." Then she (the mother) entrusted me to them. So they embellished me and nothing frightened me but Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) (when he came there) in the morning and they (the women) entrusted me to him. On that day, I was a nine years I]sic[/I old girl."

Nasa‘i has transmitted this hadith in al-Sughra from the hadith ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her). (Sunan Ibn-I-Majah, Imam Abdullah Muhammad B. Yazid Ibn-I-Maja Al-Qazwini, English version by Muhammad Tufail Ansari [Kazi Publications, 121-Zulqarnain Chambers, Gampat Road, Lahore Pakistan, first edition, 1995], volume III, pp. 133-134)

IBN HISHAM

He married ‘A’isha in Mecca when she was a child of seven and lived with her in Medina when she was nine or ten. She was the only virgin that he married. Her father, Abu Bakr, married her to him and the apostle gave her four hundred dirhams. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah (The Life of Muhammad), translated by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, Karachi, tenth impression 1995], p. 792)

AL-TABARI

In this year also the Messenger of God consummated his marriage with ‘A’ishah. This was in Dhu al-Qa‘dah (May-June 623) eight months after his arrival in Medina according to some accounts, or in Shawwal (April-May 623) seven months after his arrival according to others. He had married her in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadijah. At that time she was six or, according to other accounts, seven years old.
According to ‘Ab al-Hamid b. Bayan al-Sukkari- Muhammad b. Yazid- Isma‘il (that is, Ibn Abi Khalid)- ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Abi al-Dahhak- a man from Quraysh- ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Muhammad: ‘Abd Allah b. Safwan together with another person came to ‘A’ishah, and ‘A’ishah said (to the latter), "O so-and-so, have you heard what Hafsah has been saying?" He said, "Yes, O Mother of the Faithful." ‘Abd Allah b. Safwan asked her, "What is that?" She replied, "There are nine special features in me that have not been in any woman, except for what God bestowed on Maryam bt. ‘Imran. By God, I do not say this to exalt myself over any of my companions." "What are these?" he asked. She replied, "The angel brought down my likeness; the Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him; inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket; I was one of the dearest people to him, a verse of the Qur’an was revealed concerning me when the community was almost destroyed; I saw Gabriel when none of his other wives saw him; and he was taken (that is, died) in his house when there was nobody with him but the angel and myself."
According to Abu Ja‘far (Al-Tabari): The Messenger of God married her, so it is said, in Shawwal, and consummated his marriage to her in a later year, also in Shawwal. (The History of Al-Tabari: The Foundation of the Community, translated by M.V. McDonald annotated by W. Montgomery Watt [State University of New York Press, Albany 1987], Volume VII, pp. 6-7)

‘A’ishah, daughter of Abu Bakr.
Her mother was Umm Ruman bt. ‘Umayr b. ‘Amr, of the Banu Duhman b. al-Harith b. Ghanm b. Malik b. Kinanah.
The Prophet married ‘A’ishah in Shawwal in the tenth year after the [beginning of his] prophethood, three years before Emigration. He consummated the marriage in Shawwal, eight months after Emigration. On the day he consummated the marriage with her she was nine years old.

IBN KATHIR

Yunus b. Bukayr stated, from Hisham b. ‘Urwa, from his father who said, "The Messenger of God (SAAS) married ‘A’isha three years after (the death of) Khadija. At that time (of the contract) ‘A’isha had been a girl of six. When he married her she was nine. The Messenger of God (SAAS) died when ‘A’isha was a girl of eighteen. "

IBN QAYYIM

Next, the Prophet… married Um Abdallah, Aishah, as-Siddiqah (the truthful one), daughter of as-Siddiq (the truthful one) Abu Bakr ibn Abi Qu’hafah, whom Allah has exonerated from above the seven heavens. ‘Aishah bint Abu Bakr was the beloved wife of the Prophet… The angel showed Aishah… to the Prophet… while she was wrapped in a piece of silk cloth, before he married her, and said to him. "This is your wife." The Prophet… married Aishah… during the lunar month of Shawwal, when she was six, and consummated the marriage in the first year after the Hijrah, in the month of Shawwal, when she was nine. The Prophet… did not marry any virgin, except Aishah… and the revelation never came to him while he was under the blanket with any of his wives, except Aishah. (Ibn Qayyim Al-Juaziyyah, Zad-ul Ma’ad fi Hadyi Khairi-l ‘Ibad (Provisions for the Hereafter, From the Guidance of Allah’s Best Worshipper), translated by Jalal Abualrub, edited by Alaa Mencke & Shaheed M. Ali [Madinah Publishers & Distributors, Orlando, Fl: First edition, December 2000], Volume I, pp. 157-158)

Also to respond to a previous question:

irishconvert wrote:

If she was a child, how come none of Prophet Muhammed's friends or enemies ever condemed it, or even commented on it? How come every word Aisha spoke about the prophet was of the highest regard, even after this death? All Prophet Muhammed's other wives were older than him. To say Islam condones paedophilia is very insulting and shows your total ignorance. If it is true, how come there is not widespread paedophilia amoungst Muslims?

History seems to disagree with you. There are a number of historical examples of marriage similar to Muhammed's:

- Abu Tughlub ibn Hamdan married the daughter of `Izz al-Dawla Bakhtyar when she was three and paid a dowry of 100,000 dinars. This took place in Safar 360 H. (Ibn al-Athir, al-Kamil).

- Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of nine-year old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it from him in the Sunan al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar.

- Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less than three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten.

- Hisham ibn `Urwa himself married Fatima bint al-Mundhir when she was nine years old (al-Muntazam and Tarikh Baghdad).

- `Umar married Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali and Fatima at a similar age per `Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn `Abd al-Barr and others.

dead one · 28-04-2011 10:31AM

Dades wrote: »

Which countries are not ignorant of Islam?

Majority, in Muslim counties aren't following Islam, They are living a free life as you r free. Unfortunately there is no exemplary Islamic community on face of earth.

MagicMarker · 28-04-2011 10:33AM

boatbuilder wrote: »

My point is that the theory of evolution is the result of people's lack of belief in something supernatural. Once you rule out the supernatural, there is no explanation for the world....hence the popularity of evolution (which has many many many flaws). If you believe in God, then God's version makes sense. If you don't then its evolution for you. It basically boils down to that. If you believed in God in the first place, you would acknowledge that humans don't and can't know everything about the world and that all we are really doing is scratching the surface with our scientific reasoning. The world is more complex than we realise and its up to the individual to decide if billions of amazingly complex things exist as a result of chance, or if it was created by God.

Eh? Evolution is popular because it's true. You do realise you can accept evolution as well as believe in a deity? In fact most people do accept it, including believers. The rest are just ignorant of the facts.

The Mad Hatter · 28-04-2011 10:34AM

boatbuilder wrote: »

I respect your right to believe what you want to but if you are wrong, the consequences for you when you die are not good to say the least. For people who believe in God, the consequences for them if they are wrong are nil.

Unless they believe in the wrong god, or the right god in the wrong way.

Dades · 28-04-2011 10:36AM

dead one wrote: »

Majority, in Muslim counties aren't following Islam, They are living a free life as you r free. Unfortunately there is no exemplary Islamic community on face of earth.

Ergo the whole system is flawed. Like Christianity - the whole story is subject to 1,000 interpretations.
Everyone believing their version to be correct - yourself included.

Conclusion: Man-made.

irishconvert · 28-04-2011 10:37AM

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Already we're on to the 'my Holy Book is true and the word of God!! Except for that bit about girls being married at age 6/eating shellfish/wearing garments woven of two different cloths etc. etc. etc. I just ignore that bit or say 'oh that's obviously a metaphor' because it no longer suits me or my morals!'

We are discussing haidth, which are not from God, they are written by men and can contain mistakes/fabrications. We believe the Qur'an is the word of God, 100% of it.

Undergod · 28-04-2011 10:39AM

boatbuilder wrote: »

Science is a human way of "making sense" of the world and it now pretty much engrained into most people, that if science can't explain something, it can't be true.

That might be what most people believe, but it's not the case, and it's an unscientific attitude.

boatbuilder wrote: »

If you believe in God, then God's version makes sense. If you don't then its evolution for you. It basically boils down to that.

Only one of them can be true though.

boatbuilder wrote: »

If you believed in God in the first place, you would acknowledge that humans don't and can't know everything about the world and that all we are really doing is scratching the surface with our scientific reasoning.

That's the very idea science is founded on. It doesn't pertain to be absolute truth, it's a best guess. Luckily, it's a best guess that's founded on empirical observation and falsifiability, so if we're ever unsure about something,we can check it again!

boatbuilder wrote: »

The world is more complex than we realise and its up to the individual to decide if billions of amazingly complex things exist as a result of chance, or if it was created by God.

It is not up the individual to decide. Someone's personal opinion doesn't change reality; it was either created by God or not.

boatbuilder wrote: »

I respect your right to believe what you want to but if you are wrong, the consequences for you when you die are not good to say the least. For people who believe in God, the consequences for them if they are wrong are nil.

Except if they believe in the wrong god.

dead one · 28-04-2011 10:39AM

Dades wrote: »

Ergo the whole system is flawed. Like Christianity - the whole story is subject to 1,000 interpretations.
Everyone believing their version to be correct - yourself included.
Conclusion: Man-made.

Now it isn't manmade, This is happening as per will of God.

http://quran.com/11/118

(but they will not cease to differ. Except him on whom your Lord has bestowed His mercy,) This means that people will always differ in religions, creeds, beliefs, opinions and sects. Concerning Allah's statement,

Dades · 28-04-2011 10:43AM

And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ.

"I could have made one community if I wanted!"

Intead he made none?

dead one wrote:

Unfortunately there is no exemplary Islamic community on face of earth.

Top work there!

robindch · 28-04-2011 10:49AM

irishconvert wrote: »

These hadith are fabricated.

A fate the koran was saved from, one must assume.

wingnut32 · 28-04-2011 10:58AM

boatbuilder wrote: »

Haven't read the entire thread, just the first post and wanted to reply to some of it.
One question was why doesn't the church address evolution.
Well, the church does address it, but maybe not in the way that people want.
People generally nowadays want a scientific explanation for everything and you have to realise that no church in the world is going to provide a scientific explanation that satisfies you, because a reliance on science rules out God's involvement.
Science is a human way of "making sense" of the world and it now pretty much engrained into most people, that if science can't explain something, it can't be true. It reminds me of the old story about the boy in the classroom saying to the teacher...I don't believe in God because I can't see him. The teacher said....Do you have a brain? The boy said "of course I do". The teacher replied...."well I haven't seen it so I believe you have no brain".

My point is that the theory of evolution is the result of people's lack of belief in something supernatural. Once you rule out the supernatural, there is no explanation for the world....hence the popularity of evolution (which has many many many flaws). If you believe in God, then God's version makes sense. If you don't then its evolution for you. It basically boils down to that. If you believed in God in the first place, you would acknowledge that humans don't and can't know everything about the world and that all we are really doing is scratching the surface with our scientific reasoning. The world is more complex than we realise and its up to the individual to decide if billions of amazingly complex things exist as a result of chance, or if it was created by God.

I respect your right to believe what you want to but if you are wrong, the consequences for you when you die are not good to say the least. For people who believe in God, the consequences for them if they are wrong are nil.

But I thought god loved me? am I going to hell?

MagicMarker · 28-04-2011 11:02AM

irishconvert wrote: »

We believe the Qur'an is the word of God, 100% of it.

Which interpretation?

boatbuilder · 28-04-2011 11:03AM

wingnut32 wrote: »

But I thought god loved me? am I going to hell?

Yes, and yes if you don't believe in God. I have a feeling you already knew the answer. Anyhow, its your choice and I genuinely wish you well.

From today I can call myself an atheist

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