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Bringing up a child with/without religion?

  • 29-04-2011 12:39PM
    #1
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭


    I'm only 18 now, so it's a little early for me yet, but this got me thinking. If any of you do eventually have a child (or have one already), do you bring them up with the default religious beliefs or do you encourage them towards atheism? Of course, I would let my child know early on what I do believe while not being harsh, but then I worry that the child might be seen as somehow different by their teachers and peers, because there seems to be such a strong link between Irish schools and Catholicism, especially during 1st and 5/6th class. I find it a bit frustrating that in a way children are being indoctrinated in this manner.
    If you're an atheist with a child at the moment, how do you deal with it? For those who will have children in the future, what's the best thing to do in the interests of the child?


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Comments

  • #2
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    If I have a child (I won't), then I won't mention god at all unless I have to. The only thing I will do is make sure they're not attending a school that will force beliefs on him/her.


  • #3
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Rear them to be informed agnostics and they them make up their own minds.
    Teachers adjust and so do the kids in their class, you just have to make sure that your kids are confident and able to answer the questions their class mates will ask them.


  • #4
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,263 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    It'd depend on the mothers beliefs too, but I'd treat God like Santa Claus. As Ricky Gervais said, God is like the worlds cheapest babysitter. That being said, wouldn't go to Mass or a school in Catholic Patronage.

    I'd let the child know my own beliefs though so they know there are options for people other than Catholicism


  • #5
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    what makes you think teaching a child atheism, is not indoctrinating them?


  • #6
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    what makes you think teaching a child atheism, is not indoctrinating them?
    How do you teach atheism?


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  • #7
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    If you're an atheist with a child at the moment, how do you deal with it?
    I don't mention religion and I do my best to ensure that nobody forces it on her while she's too young and naive to be able to understand what they're doing.


  • #8
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    http://irish-nationalism.net/showthread.php/15500-Teach-atheism-to-primary-school-children


    Atheism should be taught in Educate Together primary schools, a leading member of the schools body has said.

    Fionnuala Ward, Primary Education Officer for the non-denominational patronage body said that those describing themselves as having no religion were the second biggest “religious” group in the last Census.

    The Central Statistics Office figures showed that there were 186,318 people who identified themselves as having no religion although it wasn’t clear what exactly this means.

    Writing in InTouch, the monthly newsletter of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO) Ms Ward said: “Given the fact that religion and religious institutions play such a pivotal role in the education of tens of thousands of Irish school children, it is surely time that atheism, which reflects the beliefs of a significant proportion of the population and which is more properly defined as the belief in the non-existence of God, be acknowledged and explored.”

    She said that teachers in Educate Together schools had been “addressing this issue for some time now”.

    However, she acknowledged that presenting atheism to children posed “certain challenges”.

    While religious festivals presented the chance to teach children through art-work, atheism provided few such opportunities.

    “A banner announcing, Nietzsche-like, that 'God is dead' would be considered inappropriate, at best,” she said.

    Atheism, she argued, was the "most humble of belief systems". Atheists did not believe, for example, that human beings were important enough to "warrant the attention of a Divine Provider".

    "We are all, according to atheistic beliefs, scraps of energy, randomly generated," Ms Ward added.


  • #9
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    does the above article not indicate Atheism can be taught? and if it can be taught then couldnt it be seen as indoctrinating children


  • #10
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    Well therein lies my dilemma. I do not want to force non-belief onto my children but at the same time the last thing I want is for them to blindly stumble through Alive-O songs and workbooks without ever really questioning anything. I don't even know when a child can be old enough to make a big decision on something like religion.


  • #11
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    http://irish-nationalism.net/showthread.php/15500-Teach-atheism-to-primary-school-children


    Atheism should be taught in Educate Together primary schools, a leading member of the schools body has said.

    Fionnuala Ward, Primary Education Officer for the non-denominational patronage body said that those describing themselves as having no religion were the second biggest “religious” group in the last Census.

    The Central Statistics Office figures showed that there were 186,318 people who identified themselves as having no religion although it wasn’t clear what exactly this means.

    Writing in InTouch, the monthly newsletter of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO) Ms Ward said: “Given the fact that religion and religious institutions play such a pivotal role in the education of tens of thousands of Irish school children, it is surely time that atheism, which reflects the beliefs of a significant proportion of the population and which is more properly defined as the belief in the non-existence of God, be acknowledged and explored.”

    She said that teachers in Educate Together schools had been “addressing this issue for some time now”.

    However, she acknowledged that presenting atheism to children posed “certain challenges”.

    While religious festivals presented the chance to teach children through art-work, atheism provided few such opportunities.

    “A banner announcing, Nietzsche-like, that 'God is dead' would be considered inappropriate, at best,” she said.

    Atheism, she argued, was the "most humble of belief systems". Atheists did not believe, for example, that human beings were important enough to "warrant the attention of a Divine Provider".

    "We are all, according to atheistic beliefs, scraps of energy, randomly generated," Ms Ward added.

    Just because someone talks about teaching atheism doesn't mean that they're not talking out of their ass.

    This woman has no clue what atheism is.

    I've said it before and I'll probably end up saying it again but atheism is not a religion, a belief system, an ideology, a faith or a worldview. It is an answer to one question: Do you believe in God? That's all there is to it.

    You can't teach atheism anymore than you could have a class on not playing soccer.


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  • #12
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    You sound very caring I have to say you will prob be a fantastic parent!
    I think it is the same kinda thing to tell children there is no God. As telling them there is a God.
    I think all we can do as parents is give both sets of information the idea of religion and of Atheism , and then let the child decide when they are ready what they believe.
    I do think if your going to be a proper atheist then you should not celebrate Christmas, and I think that kinda stance for children is extremely cruel.


  • #13
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    does the above article not indicate Atheism can be taught? and if it can be taught then couldnt it be seen as indoctrinating children
    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    This woman has no clue what atheism is


    The article might indicate it, but the woman in question didn't say it. The "Atheism should be taught" line came from the (ill informed) writer of the piece, not Fionnuala Ward. She merely said that atheism should be "acknowledged and explored".

    Edit: After reading the full article as linked to by MagicMarker below, she does indeed talk about "the teaching of atheism".


  • #14
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    I think in a country like Ireland , you would essentially have to sit down with your kids at numerous times and answer questions on atheism. You would be telling them your beliefs and opinions . This is essentially teaching atheism is it not?


  • #15
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    I think in a country like Ireland , you would essentially have to sit down with your kids at numerous times and answer questions on atheism. You would be telling them your beliefs and opinions . This is essentially teaching atheism is it not?

    No that's telling them what you think, which won't unduly influence them if they're taught to think independently (although that might well lead to atheism :pac:)


  • #16
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    I'm actually shocked at that article. The original is here on page 37. This women has absolutely no idea what atheism is, it seems.

    I think this is worthy of it's own thread... (rushes off to start thread)


  • #17
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    I think in a country like Ireland , you would essentially have to sit down with your kids at numerous times and answer questions on atheism. You would be telling them your beliefs and opinions . This is essentially teaching atheism is it not?
    Is telling a child that not everybody collects stamps "teaching" them non-stamp collecting?


  • #18
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    If you're an atheist with a child at the moment, how do you deal with it?

    My daughter is 2 at the moment. I'll be bringing her up without a religion - which is different to bringing her up as an atheist. I hope to help her develop her own questioning mind. Her decisions on the matter as she gets older will be her business.

    I honestly can't see why people would bring their child up dominant religion of a society, if they don't subscribe to it themselves. If one moved to Dubai, should one bring their children up as Sunni Muslims? Catholicism has been so dominant in our society that many people see it as the norm, even as they begin to reject it. People in the UK, Germany or France don't have to ask such questions - they just get on with raising their children as they see fit.

    For the record, I think it's perfectly natural that Catholic/Protestant/Muslim/Whatever parents would bring their children up in their religion. Just as it's perfectly natural for me not to.


  • #19
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,744 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you can teach someone the tenets, rules and regulations of the catholic faith.
    you cannot teach someone the tenets, rules and regulations of the atheistic 'faith'.


  • #20
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    You sound very caring I have to say you will prob be a fantastic parent!
    I think it is the same kinda thing to tell children there is no God. As telling them there is a God.
    I think all we can do as parents is give both sets of information the idea of religion and of Atheism , and then let the child decide when they are ready what they believe.
    I do think if your going to be a proper atheist then you should not celebrate Christmas, and I think that kinda stance for children is extremely cruel.

    And I think if you're a proper Christian you shouldn't have a Christmas tree


  • #21
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    phutyle wrote: »
    The article might indicate it, but the woman in question didn't say it. The "Atheism should be taught" line came from the (ill informed) writer of the piece, not Fionnuala Ward. She merely said that atheism should be "acknowledged and explored".

    According to the article as it's presented the following is presented as a quote from Ms. Ward

    Atheism, she argued, was the "most humble of belief systems".

    Atheism isn't a belief system, so like I said, no clue.


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  • #22
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    Looking through a lot of the posts in here, most of the atheists vehemently defend atheism. Ok that’s their prerogative and I respect the opinions. But if they so vehemently defend their beliefs on here then I find it hard to believe they do not do the same at home. Thus influencing their children, and moulding them to be atheists. This in turn is indoctrination.


  • #23
    TiGeR KiNgS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭TiGeR KiNgS


    Why not raise the child with religion (not necessarily practicing) and let him/her choose later in life ?
    After all religion does teach good from evil and some other good qualities which at an young age are inherently beneficial later in life. Using God/religion as a base for life awareness seems logical to me (btw I don't believe in God myself).


  • #24
    b318isp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,656 ✭✭✭b318isp


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    Why not raise the child with religion (not necessarily practicing) and let him/her choose later in life ?
    After all religion does teach good from evil and some other good qualities which at an young age are inherently beneficial later in life. Using God/religion as a base for life awareness seems logical to me (btw I don't believe in God myself).

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056203749


  • #25
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    I'm actually shocked at that article. The original is here on page 37. This women has absolutely no idea what atheism is, it seems.

    I think this is worthy of it's own thread... (rushes off to start thread)
    New thread...

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71947727#post71947727


  • #26
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    Why not raise the child with religion (not necessarily practicing) and let him/her choose later in life ?
    Why not raise the child without religion and let him/her choose later in life?


  • #27
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I do the same as my parents did and raise my kids without forcing religion on them and answering all and any questions as they present themselves making sure the kids know religion is a personal choice, rather than a right or wrong.

    Strangely enough, I don't view the freedom to choose your own spiritual path as indoctrination - although I do accept doing as my parents did and not buying into the whole baptism/confirmation/whatever the neighbours do stuff is more likely to do as I did and show there are choices and make my kids think about alternatives.

    As for not having christmas or easter? Why? If it's okay for christians to latch onto and adopt pagan rituals, I don't see why atheists should miss out on doing the same?


  • #28
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    Why not raise the child with religion (not necessarily practicing) and let him/her choose later in life ?
    After all religion does teach good from evil and some other good qualities which at an young age are inherently beneficial later in life. Using God/religion as a base for life awareness seems logical to me (btw I don't believe in God myself).
    That does present a good point, I believe a lot of what I learned morally came from growing up with religion, and I'm a good person because of the concepts I learned.


  • #29
    Robert ninja
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Robert ninja


    For feck's sake can we put this behind us already? You CAN'T TEACH ATHEISM. You simply DON'T teach them anything theistic or rather don't indoctrinate them. You can educate someone on faith healing and religion but it doesn't mean you're indoctrinating them to it as though it is true. Likewise, if a kid eventually does hear about theistic stuff from someone and asks their parents... when they say that it's not what they believe is true and leave their kid up to the choice to believe or not, that's not indoctrinating them with atheism.

    I mean, can you imagine a kid who has never heard of a god or gods before and then the parent says, "There is no god." The responce from the kid would be, "What's a god?" Then the parent would have to describe a god to them, which is not what any intelligent atheist would do since atheists generally don't define a god they just happen to not buy into any current claims about them and let me tell ya... there's a lot. God is love, god is everything, god is the designed, etc.


  • #30
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    Looking through a lot of the posts in here, most of the atheists vehemently defend atheism. Ok that’s their prerogative and I respect the opinions. But if they so vehemently defend their beliefs on here then I find it hard to believe they do not do the same at home. Thus influencing their children, and moulding them to be atheists. This in turn is indoctrination.

    tbh I'd be more inclined to say that most atheists on here value free thought and critical thinking, and so would teach their child to employ these throughout their lives. It's up to the child to make their own mind up when they get older.

    Do religious parents teach their children to question everything?


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  • #31
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    As for not having christmas or easter? Why? If it's okay for christians to latch onto and adopt pagan rituals, I don't see why atheists should miss out on doing the same?
    I think atheists should celebrate Christmas and easter. But I know some who dont and its very hard on their children.


  • #32
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    That does present a good point, I believe a lot of what I learned morally came from growing up with religion, and I'm a good person because of the concepts I learned.

    And yet I wasn't raised with religion, have never been christened/baptised/confirmed/whatever - and I too am a good person...

    Shocking. :eek:


  • #33
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    Magic Marker sorry if the article upset you. really am. please have lovley weekend everyone


  • #34
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    Why not raise the child with religion (not necessarily practicing) and let him/her choose later in life ?
    After all religion does teach good from evil and some other good qualities which at an young age are inherently beneficial later in life. Using God/religion as a base for life awareness seems logical to me (btw I don't believe in God myself).

    Some examples of religion teaching good from evil:

    Homosexuality is a sin, and homosexuals will go to hell.
    Eating certain foods is a sin, and the eaters of such food will be unclean in the eyes of God.
    Drawing pictures of a 5th century Arab is a sin, and such people should be put to death for it.

    That's the thing about religion, you don't get to pick and choose the good bits, and leave the bad bits out. And there are plenty of bad bits.

    And why would you use God as a base for anything if you didn't believe in it? You might as well tell your child that if they're bad, a Unicorn will get them, but if they're good, a Leprechaun will reward them. Would that be a good basis for bringing up a child?


  • #35
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    I think atheists should celebrate Christmas and easter. But I know some who dont and its very hard on their children.

    Oh no, I told mine all about the history of the yule log, holly, the tree, odin, estre and so on...think they did something on saturnalia at school too. :cool:


  • #36
    TiGeR KiNgS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭TiGeR KiNgS


    phutyle wrote: »
    Some examlpes of religion teaching good from evil:

    Homosexuality is a sin, and homosexuals will go to hell.
    Eating certain foods is a sin, and the eaters of such food will be unclean in the eyes of God.
    Drawing pictures of a 5th century Arab is a sin, and such people should be put to death for it.

    That's the thing about religion, you don't get to pick and choose the good bits, and leave the bad bits out. And there are plenty of bad bits.

    I was never taught any of that growing up in a Catholic school.


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  • #37
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    I was never taught any of that growing up in a Catholic school.

    Only one of those examples was from Catholicism


  • #38
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    AhSureTisGrand wrote: »
    Only one of those examples was from Catholicism

    I'm confused. Two of those examples come from the same book in the Bible, so how come only one comes from Catholicism?


  • #39
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    I'm confused. Two of those examples come from the same book in the Bible, so how come only one comes from Catholicism?

    They got rid of the kosher stuff but they rather liked the bit hating the gays so they kept it


  • #40
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    AhSureTisGrand wrote: »
    They got rid of the kosher stuff but they rather liked the bit hating the gays so they kept it

    Ah, making it up as they go along. Now, I get it.;)


  • #41
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    This is something I was actually very worried about. I have moved from being a fairly apathetic atheist to a full blown anti-theist. Whilst I love live my children to be in my image, as it were, I did not want them to be that way simply to please me.

    I was talking to my oldest girl's RS teacher and was explaining my worry to her. Her response made me very proud. My daughter had informed her that she was an atheist and then went on to present reasoned arguments as to why. The reason for my pride is that most of her points were not things I told her. I rarely discuss my reasoning with her or any of my kids. I tend to go with the old "different people believe different things." I also try to instil a desire to find out why things are and not to believe things bless you has good reason to. So she seems to have reasoned and developed her own reasons for her unbelief. One problem though, whilst I am an anti-theist I tend to, believe it or not, temper my comments with most people. She is 12 and thinks that people who believe are idiots, and being 12 has no problem telling them. I zm trying to teach her now that this is not necessarily something she should do.

    In short, I think the best approach is not to shy away from the discussions but to try to develop critical thinking skills and get them yo apply it to znyhing that is important to them. According to the RS teacher it had worked a treat.

    MrP


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  • #42
    Robert ninja
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Robert ninja


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    Looking through a lot of the posts in here, most of the atheists vehemently defend atheism.

    Well then you haven't been looking very well at all, csb. Damn near all of the atheists in here have been defining what atheism is, not defending it because a lot of people, including you... don't/didn't understand what atheism is at all and I'm suspecting it's still the case with all this 'teaching atheism' malarkey I'm hearing.

    common sense brigade wrote: »
    I think atheists should celebrate Christmas and easter. But I know some who dont and its very hard on their children.

    It can be very hard indeed when there is a strong culture of religion and magic. Government holidays based around it and a huge marketing campaigns make it impossible not to notice when these holidays are around and kids would celebrate balloon day if there was one so of course they feel like they're missing out on something that could possibly fun. But take a child who has no real knowledge of christianity, let them be all excited because of the holiday coming and then when the time comes for them to have fun with the holiday(Easter) tell em' that he/she's celebrating the death and ressurection of Jesus who was crucified in Jerusalem because the kid is such a dirty sinner by default. Yeah, that'll get em' all cheerful. The secular aspects of these holidays have sometimes NOTHING to do with christianity and it's the secular activities that are (generally) really fun to children and adults alike.

    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    I'm confused. Two of those examples come from the same book in the Bible, so how come only one comes from Catholicism?


    You're taking it out of context, heathen!


  • #43
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    I was never taught any of that growing up in a Catholic school.

    Yeah, a bit like Scientology, they don't tell you the really wacky stuff straight off.

    Actually, I gave 3 examples from the three major monotheistic religions (although the first one applies to them all, and the second one applies to two of them). It's not an exhaustive list.

    In Catholic education in Ireland, I was told:

    Babies are born with an inbuilt sin. This has to be cleansed.
    Masturbation is a sin.
    Homosexuality is a sin (maybe you were out that day).
    Sex out side of marriage, and for any purpose other than procreation, is a sin.
    Contraception is a sin.

    ... and many more.

    I want my child to know the difference between right and wrong on the basis of what is in her and society's best interests. Not on the false fear that a magic man in the sky is watching and ready to punish.

    Religion doesn't teach morality, it teaches obedience.


  • #44
    TiGeR KiNgS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭TiGeR KiNgS


    phutyle wrote: »
    Yeah, a bit like Scientology, they don't tell you the really wacky stuff straight off.

    Actually, I gave 3 examples from the three major monotheistic religions (although the first one applies to them all, and the second one applies to two of them). It's not an exhaustive list.

    In Catholic education in Ireland, I was told:

    Babies are born with an inbuilt sin. This has to be cleansed.
    Masturbation is a sin.
    Homosexuality is a sin (maybe you were out that day).
    Sex out side of marriage, and for any purpose other than procreation, is a sin.
    Contraception is a sin.

    ... and many more.

    I want my child to know the difference between right and wrong on the basis of what is in her and society's best interests. Not on the false fear that a magic man in the sky is watching and ready to punish.

    Religion teaches morality through obedience.

    fixed

    ''Religion doesn't teach morality, it teaches obedience.''

    It is this type of cynicism that gives atheists a bad name, much like Dawkins and his finger wagging approach, it only turns people off calling themselves atheist and further entrenches religious beliefs in people.


  • #45
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    fixed

    ''Religion doesn't teach morality, it teaches obedience.''

    It is this type of cynicism that gives atheists a bad name, much like Dawkins and his finger wagging approach, it only turns people off calling themselves atheist and further entrenches religious beliefs in people.

    Heh! Just saying "fixed" and editing my quote doesn't make your point any more valid. :rolleyes:

    I gave 5 examples of Catholic teaching as taught in schools in Ireland today. None of which are about teaching actual, real morality and each of which are just about obedience to the alleged whims of an invented spectre.

    So no, not fixed. Not fixed at all.

    As for what other people want or don't want to call themselves, that's none of my concern.


  • #46
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    I think atheists should celebrate Christmas and easter. But I know some who dont and its very hard on their children.
    I know some catholics who dont let their kids watch Barney
    I know a Protestant who does not bring his kids swimming
    I know a builder who doesnt bring his kids dog on camping holidays

    Whats your point?


    Ps. I dont think you do know such people but pretending helps your arguement....


  • #47
    Robert ninja
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Robert ninja


    @TiGeR KiNgS

    Morality through obedience... so disgusting.

    Live this way or you'll be punished in hell forever. Being obedient to that out of fear of hell (or whatever) is not a good way to mold a person's morality. It's a might makes right kind of philosophy that I despise.

    It draws my attention back to all those claims I hear from theists. 'If I didn't believe in god, I would just go around killing.'

    First of all, not they wouldn't. I've seen people who believed and now not believe... and they don't just suddenly start killing people, ever. Second, anything morally good about them probably came from modern and secular morality. The moral codes they have in the bible and such (listed in posts before me) are perfect examples of how sick and outdated these religions are.

    The point still stands. Religion teaches obedience (be a bitch to god) and claims to be teaching morality. And why are its commandments good? Because it comes from god. And why is god good? Because it is, that's why... now stop asking questions, sinner.


    Here's a question I have to theists that may be interested in this current topic. When god commands/says something, is it moral because god said it, or is something moral regardless of god and god just passes the message along?


  • #48
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,140 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    Why not raise the child with religion (not necessarily practicing) and let him/her choose later in life ?
    After all religion does teach good from evil and some other good qualities which at an young age are inherently beneficial later in life. Using God/religion as a base for life awareness seems logical to me (btw I don't believe in God myself).

    I've given some examples of religious teaching that goes against what I (and many others) consider to be moral.

    Why don't you give some examples of morality that can only be taught through religion, and not by any secular means?


  • #49
    TiGeR KiNgS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭TiGeR KiNgS


    phutyle wrote: »
    I've given some examples of religious teaching that goes against what I (and many others) consider to be moral.

    Why don't you give some examples of morality that can only be taught through religion, and not by any secular means?

    I believe in taking a passive approach to religion and let the individual decide later in life.
    My reasoning is why not use religion instead of fighting it?

    It has a whole system of stories and philosophy based around morals that have taken centuries to refine.
    Like the reason we adopted the Common English law in our legal system.....
    There's no point trying to reinvent the wheel.


  • #50
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Isnt it really simple what you tell kids about all the Gods?
    Nobody knows...


  • #51
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    I believe in taking a passive approach to religion and let the individual decide later in life.
    My reasoning is why not use religion instead of fighting it?

    It has a whole system of stories and philosophy based around morals that have taken centuries to refine.
    Like the reason we adopted the Common English law in our legal system.....
    There's no point trying to reinvent the wheel.
    Thats a whole lot of wheels many of which are buckled and bent


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