Electric cars and Electricity

09-05-2011 10:23AM #1

Okay this might be a long post. There might be 2 topics but they kind of go together so bear with me.

On the subject of electric cars, I believe the Government and the E.S.B are wasting missions of euros investing in a charging infrastructure that no one will really use.

Look at the E.S.B's site on ev's and see where they are installing chargers and slow or fast chargers. I don't think that installing a slow 220 volt charger for instance, in Dublin airport is worth while, I mean you will probably have to wait at least 3 hours to charge up to a level suitable to take you just 20-30 miles at the very least, now who wants to wait and pay for parking in the Airport for that length of time? That's just one example, the others are fast chargers on the motorways, that's fine, but we need them most places not just the motorway!

Batteries will not be a problem in a few years, 200 miles, 300 miles etc, but charging will, not because they cant, but because of the size and expense of the equipment to charge, never mind the power needed for those ranges in say 5 mins, just not going to be possible because of that, and not because of the batteries. Some of us E-Bikers can already charge a 50 volt 20 ah LiPo battery pack in 20 mins!!! I settle for an hour!

Then there is the renewables and what that costs to build, and maintain. I think Ireland should go down the road of nuclear using thorium instead of Uranium. LFTR reactors have many many advantages over current uranium. I won't get into it, but do the research and you will be amazed that this technology has been around for decades and the direction of the Nuclear industry was basically chosen by the American Military! (bombs) And the Nuclear industry is not willing to change because of the cost. Who cares if it's better technology and much safer? lol

There are thousands of years supply of Thorium and would cost a fraction of the price of fossil fuels. Who ever said we have an energy crisis? that's a laugh!

The Mercedes F-Cell will be available in 2015, with a range of 250 miles, but under higher storage pressure 400 miles! and Ireland will have no Hydrogen infrastructure, no one is even talking about it. Instead the muppets in Government and the E.S.B are putting the money towards battery cars, while I do believe they have their uses, they will never be as practical as petrol, diesel, or Hydrogen.

The Merc will cost about the same as a Diesel Hybrid but by 2020 it will probably cost the same as a Diesel because Mercedes said they will probably have to abandon Diesel car production because it's getting too expensive to make them because of emissions regulations, especially as E.U 6 regulations come into force in 2014. And diesel cars are becoming less reliable and more expensive, and their simplicity is gone!

We could make our own Hydrogen and create many jobs, Irish jobs and we could be almost 100% energy independent!

Cost I hear you say, well we are already spending the money so why not spend it right. There could be an extra 5 Euros per electric bill per 2 months, or 10 per commercial customer? we are going to be paying for it anyway with rising fossil fuel charges!

Do we have anyone in this country with foresight? I understand the nuclear scare, but that is not really realistic with Thorium or l.f.t.r reactors. (no risk of melt down)

It can be done, why do we not have people with the drive to do anything in this country? You will see that there will have to be debates and a referendum on Nuclear power, meaning years of BS!

One other thing I should mention is the fact that the German Government spent over 12 Billion Euros for renewable grants and feed tariffs for just 6% of the total micro electricity generation scheme and do we really want to throw money away like that?

09-05-2011 07:31PM

No Views at all, anyone?

chalkitdown · 09-05-2011 07:34PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No Views at all, anyone?

Shhh! Still reading....

Daegerty · 09-05-2011 08:38PM

hydrogen is ****e. it is in most cases just a charger for an electric car

the Honda FCX has a 7KWh lithium ion battery that will probably wear faster than most EV batteries.

so you have all the disadvantages of an electric car and you're still stuck with the proprietary filling infrastructure of petrol cars. there isn't even a standardised filling mechanism for hydrogen cars.

Hydrogen is still generated from burning fossil fuels and converting it to electricity isn't the most efficient process either.

160km range is plenty for me and a large portion of the population. even if i have to charge it overnight that won't bother me.

you are having a go at diesel cars as well. 70% of cars sold here are diesel, really can't see them going away any time soon tbh

i'd even settel for a car with 100km range, would love an old Saxo Electrique just to mess about with and put some new NiMH batteries in maybe just because the days I travel more than 100km in a day are few and far between

Matt Simis · 09-05-2011 09:21PM

Id rather see the British invest the Billions in upgrading their Nuclear plants and selling it cheaply to Ireland than us paying for it (and no doubt making a mess of maintaining it). Imo Ireland should heavy augment our power generation with wind power, ala Denmark. No matter whats been said elsewhere, Wind power potential in Ireland is virtually the highest in Europe. And just import the balance (with some storage ability here), using our existing dirty coal plants as backup.

On electric cars, I just dont know if they are the future or not. As much as Id like to see some sort of combustion technology being the future, I think its more likely to be some sort of EV, certainly within cities. Batteries and charging will improve, performance and range are steadily getting better. Soulless and boring no doubt, but for many Urbanites it delivers pretty much all they need (sub-30 mile commute, no emissions, small size cars, no noise, charging station at work if needed etc).

Personally I am (was?) a fan of BioFuels, I would be confident that BioDiesel and Ethanol would meet EU Emissions for years to come. It may not be something Ireland can tackle, but the EU as a whole could. Cellulisitic Biofuels grown in small "lab farms" but suppling a 10-50x yield over current crops would completely turn around the cost/green impact if it ever goes live and out of development. Every country could generate its own fuel, cheaply, greenly and no Middle East BS to contend with either. Watch OPEC try give away Oil when no one wants it anymore (suddenly reserves will be miraculously higher than thought, cheap petrol for all).

09-05-2011 09:34PM

Daegerty wrote: »

hydrogen is ****e. it is in most cases just a charger for an electric car

the Honda FCX has a 7KWh lithium ion battery that will probably wear faster than most EV batteries.

so you have all the disadvantages of an electric car and you're still stuck with the proprietary filling infrastructure of petrol cars. there isn't even a standardised filling mechanism for hydrogen cars.

Hydrogen is still generated from burning fossil fuels and converting it to electricity isn't the most efficient process either.

160km range is plenty for me and a large portion of the population. even if i have to charge it overnight that won't bother me.

you are having a go at diesel cars as well. 70% of cars sold here are diesel, really can't see them going away any time soon tbh

i'd even settel for a car with 100km range, would love an old Saxo Electrique just to mess about with and put some new NiMH batteries in maybe just because the days I travel more than 100km in a day are few and far between

Hi Daegerty,

I take it you don't commute long distances? fair enough as I said battery E.V's won't suit everyone.

The 7kwh battery I would imagine would last a very long time as it will never be allowed to reach full charge or discharge capacity and there won't be the demands on it as there would be in a battery E.V, another thing they might do by the time it's released is use ultra capacitors. The prius's battery lasts a very long time!

I never said that making Hydrogen from fossil fuels is a good idea, I don't agree with that and the energy for now would be better put into batteries, however the electricity for battery cars still has to come from fossil fuels.

As I said the only way for the future will have to be nuclear, there is absolutely no other source of energy that begins to comes close to it and just 1 tonne of Thorium is = to 3.5 million tonnes of coal, or 100 tonnes of Uranium! No melt down risk, less than 1% waste, no need for big expensive concrete cooling towers, can be switched on and off on demand! Many benefits and something we should seriously consider!

Moneypoint power station cost over 1 Billion Euros to construct in 1980 and is now going to cost millions more to make it pass E.U emissions regulations, why pump so much into a 30 year old station that cost so much already?

It's so much power that who cares if making hydrogen from Nuclear is inefficient? and cheap. We can also heat our homes from it and no more oil! Imagine that.

Fusion is still some way away and may never actually work!

Just imagine if they had Thorium l.f.t.r reactors in Japan the time of the quake, well you don't need big cooling systems, if it over heats, no problem, the reaction stops! Then Chernobyl, crazy to think it could never have been!

You say I'm having a go at diesel cars? well they are a lot more polluting than petrols that's for sure, and petrols are taxed higher now and that's insane. Imagine lower tax on diesels to drive around towns and cities!

I think higher and higher taxes on fuel will change peoples opinions to Nuclear, though I wonder how High the fuel prices have to go?

Countries like India, china and France are looking at lftr reactors, it will take around 10 years for it to become a reality sooner if the nuclear industry bothers. and that should mean Ireland might have had it's Nuclear debate over by then! Imagine fuel prices then?

robtri · 09-05-2011 09:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi Daegerty,

I take it you don't commute long distances? fair enough as I said battery E.V's won't suit everyone.

The 7kwh battery I would imagine would last a very long time as it will never be allowed to reach full charge or discharge capacity and there won't be the demands on it as there would be in a battery E.V, another thing they might do by the time it's released is use ultra capacitors. The prius's battery lasts a very long time!

I never said that making Hydrogen from fossil fuels is a good idea, I don't agree with that and the energy for now would be better put into batteries, however the electricity for battery cars still has to come from fossil fuels.

As I said the only way for the future will have to be nuclear, there is absolutely no other source of energy that begins to comes close to it and just 1 tonne of Thorium is = to 3.5 million tonnes of coal, or 100 tonnes of Uranium! No melt down risk, less than 1% waste, no need for big expensive concrete cooling towers, can be switched on and off on demand! Many benefits and something we should seriously consider!

Moneypoint power station cost over 1 Billion Euros to construct in 1980 and is now going to cost millions more to make it pass E.U emissions regulations, why pump so much into a 30 year old station that cost so much already?

It's so much power that who cares if making hydrogen from Nuclear is inefficient? and cheap. We can also heat our homes from it and no more oil! Imagine that.

Fusion is still some way away and may never actually work!

Just imagine if they had Thorium l.f.t.r reactors in Japan the time of the quake, well you don't need big cooling systems, if it over heats, no problem, the reaction stops! Then Chernobyl, crazy to think it could never have been!

You say I'm having a go at diesel cars? well they are a lot more polluting than petrols that's for sure, and petrols are taxed higher now and that's insane. Imagine lower tax on diesels to drive around towns and cities!

I think higher and higher taxes on fuel will change peoples opinions to Nuclear, though I wonder how High the fuel prices have to go?

Countries like India, china and France are looking at lftr reactors, it will take around 10 years for it to become a reality sooner if the nuclear industry bothers. and that should mean Ireland might have had it's Nuclear debate over by then! Imagine fuel prices then?

sustainabilty and enviroment forum that away

>

on th subject of cars.... iirc hydrogen is a no go at the moment because more energy is required to make hydrogen than is released during combustion...

EV cars are the way of the future...

i heard it said and it sums up the future of cars for me.. EV cars will be like the original cars was to horses....
soon the ev will be more efficient than the internal combustion cars, greater ranges and just as short fill up times... and the internal combustion car will become like the horses a thing of pleasure and beauty for the weekend

Daegerty · 09-05-2011 09:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi Daegerty,

I take it you don't commute long distances? fair enough as I said battery E.V's won't suit everyone.

The 7kwh battery I would imagine would last a very long time as it will never be allowed to reach full charge or discharge capacity and there won't be the demands on it as there would be in a battery E.V, another thing they might do by the time it's released is use ultra capacitors. The prius's battery lasts a very long time!

I never said that making Hydrogen from fossil fuels is a good idea, I don't agree with that and the energy for now would be better put into batteries, however the electricity for battery cars still has to come from fossil fuels.

As I said the only way for the future will have to be nuclear, there is absolutely no other source of energy that begins to comes close to it and just 1 tonne of Thorium is = to 3.5 million tonnes of coal, or 100 tonnes of Uranium! No melt down risk, less than 1% waste, no need for big expensive concrete cooling towers, can be switched on and off on demand! Many benefits and something we should seriously consider!

Moneypoint power station cost over 1 Billion Euros to construct in 1980 and is now going to cost millions more to make it pass E.U emissions regulations, why pump so much into a 30 year old station that cost so much already?

It's so much power that who cares if making hydrogen from Nuclear is inefficient? and cheap. We can also heat our homes from it and no more oil! Imagine that.

Fusion is still some way away and may never actually work!

Just imagine if they had Thorium l.f.t.r reactors in Japan the time of the quake, well you don't need big cooling systems, if it over heats, no problem, the reaction stops! Then Chernobyl, crazy to think it could never have been!

You say I'm having a go at diesel cars? well they are a lot more polluting than petrols that's for sure, and petrols are taxed higher now and that's insane. Imagine lower tax on diesels to drive around towns and cities!

I think higher and higher taxes on fuel will change peoples opinions to Nuclear, though I wonder how High the fuel prices have to go?

Countries like India, china and France are looking at lftr reactors, it will take around 10 years for it to become a reality sooner if the nuclear industry bothers. and that should mean Ireland might have had it's Nuclear debate over by then! Imagine fuel prices then?

I dunno if ultracapacitors will cut it, very little progress in that field since EEstor seems to be a scamp. Thing is with all these great new sources of power it isn't as easy as it might look. Is there even a thorium reactor running at the moment?

Wind energy actually isn't bad for charging EV since there is some flexibility for when its charged. chargers can be set to switch on when there is cheap surplus energy being produced. i'm very skeptical of these new unlimited sources of cheap energy

robtri wrote: »

sustainabilty and enviroment forum that away
>

on th subject of cars.... iirc hydrogen is a no go at the moment because more energy is required to make hydrogen than is released during combustion...

EV cars are the way of the future...

i heard it said and it sums up the future of cars for me.. EV cars will be like the original cars was to horses....
soon the ev will be more efficient than the internal combustion cars, greater ranges and just as short fill up times... and the internal combustion car will become like the horses a thing of pleasure and beauty for the weekend

The original cars were EV

robtri · 09-05-2011 09:59PM

Daegerty wrote: »

The original cars were EV

very true.. meant the original internal combustion

waxon-waxoff · 09-05-2011 10:42PM

The ESBs electric car plan is a hangover of the boom years, like the e-voting machines, a hair brained idea by a bloated, overpaid, state monopoly. The ESB would be better off paying the state a large dividend or reducing the price of electricity to customers instead of wasting money on this fantasy. This technology is still in developmental stage so wait for it to be proven somewhere else first as we cant afford to gamble on it.

10-05-2011 06:42AM

robtri wrote: »

sustainabilty and enviroment forum that away
>

robtri wrote: »

on th subject of cars.... iirc hydrogen is a no go at the moment because more energy is required to make hydrogen than is released during combustion...

I know that's why I'm saying we need Nuclear to make it! But if we don't get our acts together we will end up paying a higher price for it because we will have to import it like oil, and we could make it ourselves!

robtri wrote: »

EV cars are the way of the future...

I agree, though I might disagree with the fuel source!

robtri wrote: »

i heard it said and it sums up the future of cars for me.. EV cars will be like the original cars was to horses....
soon the ev will be more efficient than the internal combustion cars, greater ranges and just as short fill up times... and the internal combustion car will become like the horses a thing of pleasure and beauty for the weekend

I think the E.V is already much more efficient than the I.C.E even given inefficiencies in battery and charger and motor!

As for greater ranges, the Leaf II is said will have a range of around 200 miles, perfect, only charging will take a long time, even fast charging, that's the problem is fast charging and the energy and crazy expensive chargers to do it. The charger for to charge my Electric Bike for 20 mins would cost 500 Euros, a 1kw charger. (and that's not even the fastest charger) It's amazing the amount of power you can dump into these packs, and what you can pull from them!

If it takes the Leaf 8 hrs to charge form empty it will take 16 hours for twice the capacity because mains house wiring and voltage will not allow for much faster charge times and fast charging takes 30 mins to 80% so it will take 60 mins for twice the capacity. That might be okay for some but it won't for a lot of people and access to fast chargers will be limited. They are big and expensive.

Batteries will not be the problem it's charging. If they can get a 200 mile range E.V to 80% in 5 mins, then they will be on to a winner, but I don't think they will have the technology for such amount of charger!

I think we will have the option of Hydrogen or battery. Renault's Fluence has the quick swap battery option and of course there won't be facilities here for that, (as usual) that's something the E.S.B should look into, in fact the company that does it (better place) is being blocked by the E.S.B because they are a major threat to their source of revenue. Lord only knows what they will charge for access to these chargers! I bet it will be at least twice what you will pay for it on night rate at home, maybe more.

I worked it out that at the time I had my A4 it cost 97 Euros to fill to take me 600 miles, the equivalent on night saver would be around 12 Euros, even worst case scenario where you might only get 60 miles range it would still be a massive difference to petrol or diesel!

By the way I saw a red Nissan Leaf for the first time on Friday evening on the new M9 motorway between Kilcullen and Crookstown. It was doing around 50 mph, ridiculous on a motorway. I can imagine your range would be around 60 miles @120 kph!

There are kits to convert the Prius to almost full e.v, or over 100 mpg normal mode. It would work in full E.V mode up to 30 mph, or with a software upgrade 50 mph. The cost would be around 4-5K for 20 miles range, there is grants in the U.S where they make the kits, They should offer some grant here to do it, it might create employment also! but really you could do it yourself, just gotta know what you are at. It would make a cheap E.V!

10-05-2011 07:35AM

Daegerty wrote: »

I dunno if ultracapacitors will cut it, very little progress in that field since EEstor seems to be a scamp. Thing is with all these great new sources of power it isn't as easy as it might look. Is there even a thorium reactor running at the moment?

I think they have successfully used them, but the tests were short distance, but it proved if used with a fuel cell it will allow you to get that burst of acceleration for overtaking or hill climbing without the need for a battery, maybe fuel cells will become good enough that you won't need even batteries! But the Mercedes F-Cell is more than good enough as it is now!

Daegerty wrote: »

Wind energy actually isn't bad for charging EV since there is some flexibility for when its charged. chargers can be set to switch on when there is cheap surplus energy being produced. i'm very skeptical of these new unlimited sources of cheap energy

Wind energy looks good on paper, but in reality it hasn't worked out so well. Take the U.K for example, the companies who own some wind farms over there had to be compensated millions to turn them off because of over supply. You can find out the exact details on the net. Ireland has a reputation for being a very windy country, and it is, however not all the time.

The cost of wind production is very high as you have to build very expensive inter connectors, bury cables, substations, maintenance etc.

Wind will never meet our energy needs, it will only ever play a small part and that goes for all renewables.

If we had big mountains then I believe we could meet over 60% of our energy from hydro and wind, but we don't! There are valleys we can flood with high enough hills and a study was done on that a while ago and debated on Pat Kenny.

Why do we insist on spending many Billions of Euros on importing foreign fuels?

Norway has enough Thorium to last the whole of Europe for several thousand years! Fact!

challengemaster · 10-05-2011 08:01AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The cost of wind production is very high as you have to build very expensive inter connectors, bury cables, substations, maintenance etc.

I know, think of all the jobs that could create. Absolutely terrible it is. Should be abolished..

wait a minute....

10-05-2011 10:59AM

challengemaster wrote: »

I know, think of all the jobs that could create. Absolutely terrible it is. Should be abolished..

wait a minute....

Is your sarcasm necessary?

Yes they create jobs and will continue to do so, But the fact still remains we need another source of energy and we need lots of it and that can only be done through Nuclear! That will also create many jobs, And also our own hydrogen economy would create many jobs too, a lot more than renewables will because of the fact we throw money away on foreign fossil fuels!

Absurdum · 10-05-2011 11:10AM

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

The ESBs electric car plan is a hangover of the boom years, like the e-voting machines, a hair brained idea by a bloated, overpaid, state monopoly.

semi-state, nowhere near a monopoly

The ESB would be better off paying the state a large dividend

they already do

or reducing the price of electricity to customers

they do, when the regulator allows

instead of wasting money on this fantasy. This technology is still in developmental stage so wait for it to be proven somewhere else first as we cant afford to gamble on it.

ok let's sit around and do nothing as usual:rolleyes:

Sesshoumaru · 10-05-2011 11:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

robtri wrote: »

By the way I saw a red Nissan Leaf for the first time on Friday evening on the new M9 motorway between Kilcullen and Crookstown. It was doing around 50 mph, ridiculous on a motorway. I can imagine your range would be around 60 miles @120 kph!

At 120kph your range would be around 120 to 130 kilometers. Do you mean ridiculous as in dangerous? or just you think it's a stupidly slow speed to have to travel at? The car will easily go over 160kph, just don't expect much range if you go that fast!

bonzodog2 · 10-05-2011 11:42AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Wind energy looks good on paper, but in reality it hasn't worked out so well. Take the U.K for example, the companies who own some wind farms over there had to be compensated millions to turn them off because of over supply. You can find out the exact details on the net. Ireland has a reputation for being a very windy country, and it is, however not all the time.

The cost of wind production is very high as you have to build very expensive inter connectors, bury cables, substations, maintenance etc.

Wind will never meet our energy needs, it will only ever play a small part and that goes for all renewables.

If we had big mountains then I believe we could meet over 60% of our energy from hydro and wind, but we don't! There are valleys we can flood with high enough hills and a study was done on that a while ago and debated on Pat Kenny.

Why do we insist on spending many Billions of Euros on importing foreign fuels?

Norway has enough Thorium to last the whole of Europe for several thousand years! Fact!

If we had hydrogen combustion cars (not fuel cells, though they may have their place), wind power (and hydro) could be used to electrolyse water into H2 and O2 and store it locally, cutting the need for fixed infrastructure investment.

10-05-2011 11:45AM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

At 120kph your range would be around 120 to 130 kilometers. Do you mean ridiculous as in dangerous? or just you think it's a stupidly slow speed to have to travel at? The car will easily go over 160kph, just don't expect much range if you go that fast!

I mean people should stick to the motorway speed limit of 120 kph, unless it's safe to do so, heavy traffic etc!

I would really like the leaf, as it would be suitable for 60-70% of my driving, I just could not afford it and the depreciation is not known yet. I would buy a very cheap petrol car for longer distances! IF giving Nissan's usual depreciation on ICE cars, I would expect after 3 years the car will be worth around 15,000, yes half the value after 3 years, I doubt the battery will have lost much if at all any capacity because most people will not drive until empty and that will increase life considerably, especially since Nissan will not allow the battery to reach 100% doc anyway. The car may tell you it's empty but there will still be about 5-10% left, specifically to increase life. Now calendar life is not known yet, but I expect 8-10 years life!

I think It was on auto express where so called experts said they expect the leaf to hold it's value better than a Golf!

Having the option to install a new battery with greater range would be very nice too, and be allowed some money to return the old battery, which will still have many uses, for instance renewable energy storage!

Sesshoumaru · 10-05-2011 11:52AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I mean people should stick to the motorway speed limit of 120 kph, unless it's safe to do so, heavy traffic etc!

I would really like the leaf, as it would be suitable for 60-70% of my driving, I just could not afford it and the depreciation is not known yet. I would buy a very cheap petrol car for longer distances! IF giving Nissan's usual depreciation on ICE cars, I would expect after 3 years the car will be worth around 15,000, yes half the value after 3 years, I doubt the battery will have lost much if at all any capacity because most people will not drive until empty and that will increase life considerably, especially since Nissan will not allow the battery to reach 100% doc anyway. The car may tell you it's empty but there will still be about 5-10% left, specifically to increase life. Now calendar life is not known yet, but I expect 8-10 years life!

I think It was on auto express where so called experts said they expect the leaf to hold it's value better than a Golf!

Having the option to install a new battery with greater range would be very nice too, and be allowed some money to return the old battery, which will still have many uses, for instance renewable energy storage!

I meant what exactly was your issue with someone doing 80kph? Do you just think it's too slow? or you think someone doing that speed is dangerous?

Everything else is a mirror image of my thoughts, which is why I bought one. Except maybe I don't need a range greater than 160km more than 2 or 3 % of the time. I also have 2 motorcycles if I need fossil fuel range.

10-05-2011 12:04PM

bonzodog2 wrote: »

If we had hydrogen combustion cars (not fuel cells, though they may have their place), wind power (and hydro) could be used to electrolyse water into H2 and O2 and store it locally, cutting the need for fixed infrastructure investment.

Burning Hydrogen in cars has it's problems because it burns much faster than petrol and hydrogen has a much lower energy density to petrol. I don't think they can get the range that they can do in a fuel cell.

But even if they could get a range of 100 miles and refuel in the same time as a normal car, and have the infrastructure, I think it could work.

The general conclusion is though that it is more efficient to use a fuel cell.

10-05-2011 12:19PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

I meant what exactly was your issue with someone doing 80kph? Do you just think it's too slow? or you think someone doing that speed is dangerous?

Everything else is a mirror image of my thoughts, which is why I bought one. Except maybe I don't need a range greater than 160km more than 2 or 3 % of the time. I also have 2 motorcycles if I need fossil fuel range.

LOL it wasn't you I saw in the red leaf Friday evening in on the M9 then was it?

And congratulations, you must be very happy with being one of the first in Ireland to own an E.V!

I really envy you at this very moment!

So how do you find it?

I am sorry to say, but I feel the motorway is no place for slow vehicles, and they should change the rules which currently allow 30 mph minimum speed vehicles, There should be a minimum and max limit on roads!

waxon-waxoff · 10-05-2011 08:28PM

Absurdum wrote: »

ok let's sit around and do nothing as usual:rolleyes:

Do nothing until the technology improves. Once they are selling well in London or Paris its time to consider them here. At the moment electric cars are years away from being mainstream until the batteries improve. Plus they are very expensive, nobodys gonna pay nearly €30k for a fancy Mitsubishi Colt.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 10-05-2011 08:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No Views at all, anyone?

Still trying to make sense of the ramble.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 10-05-2011 08:41PM

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

The ESBs electric car plan is a hangover of the boom years, like the e-voting machines, a hair brained idea by a bloated, overpaid, state monopoly. The ESB would be better off paying the state a large dividend or reducing the price of electricity to customers instead of wasting money on this fantasy. .

1. The government (greens) actually forced ESB to take this track with charge points. They had to do as their masters told them

2. ESB does pay over €250M in dividends to the government every year and has reduced price.

You might want to learn some facts before you let rip.

10-05-2011 08:42PM

Gael Thoughtless Vomit wrote: »

Still trying to make sense of the ramble.

Good man yourself!!!

Well if you need me to try make sense of my ramblings, please don't hesitate to ask!

I have many interests and alternate energy, cars, technology in general is a major interest to me, I'm on many forums at once and sometimes I don't even understand some of the stuff I post myself! LOL

I would just like to be able to discuss some stuff seriously with Irish people.
usually I'm on foreign forums.

jackbauer · 10-05-2011 09:10PM

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

Plus they are very expensive, nobodys gonna pay nearly €30k for a fancy Mitsubishi Colt.

While i agree with that in principal we are in the early adopter phase with ev. Its the same with any new tech. Think dvd players. I remember the first one i saw for sale. 1000 pounds. Now its what? 50 euros from lidl and does everything but cook the dinner and bring you a newspaper in the morning:)

I don't agree with many aspects of the esb ev plan but at least its doing something. Maybe hindsight will prove it wrong but at least we did it. Talk is cheap as they say.

Slow motorway driving isn't confined to evs. I regularly drive a section of the M11 out by the beehive pub. Nice downhill that i can save "fuel" only what happens? some moron in a gas guzzler sitting there doin 50:eek:

PADRAIC.M · 10-05-2011 09:56PM

Toyota are currently testing prius in Europe with plug in chargers and larger batteries ( we have one here) it costs 30c to charge it and takes 40 min and does 200km at 120kph! And it's still a hybrid of course but with less boot room ;-)

10-05-2011 09:59PM

PADRAIC.M wrote: »

Toyota are currently testing prius in Europe with plug in chargers and larger batteries ( we have one here) it costs 30c to charge it and takes 40 min and does 200km at 120kph! And it's still a hybrid of course but with less boot room ;-)

What? 200kms? that's news to me! The plug in prius form Toyota that I'm aware of will only take you 12 miles in E.V mode? or 100+ mpg in mixed mode!

Matt Simis · 10-05-2011 10:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What? 200kms? that's news to me! The plug in prius form Toyota that I'm aware of will only take you 12 miles in E.V mode? or 100+ mpg in mixed mode!

In its comfort zone yeah, but not for the many people that need to use real roads or get anywhere fast. Its 50mpg at 120kph with a rapid drop off, ie 41mpg at 135kph.

PADRAIC.M · 10-05-2011 10:12PM

Yeah I know I didn't believe until I seen it, its not in production yet these are test vehicles only, and after 3 years Toyota want them back for testing so maybe then production, but these larger batteries are pretty big...

Paparazzo · 10-05-2011 10:34PM

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

This technology is still in developmental stage so wait for it to be proven somewhere else first as we cant afford to gamble on it.

Yes we can afford to! Putting in a a few charging points isn't going to bankrupt the country. And there's plenty of electric cars in full production. If charging points arent put in electric cars will never sell.
I wouldn't bother with an electric car myself as it doesn't suit me, but some people seem to have a fear of them.

Matt Simis · 10-05-2011 10:46PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

Yes we can afford to! Putting in a a few charging points isn't going to bankrupt the country.

Where have you been? That ship has long sailed!

waxon-waxoff · 10-05-2011 11:51PM

Gael Thoughtless Vomit wrote: »

1. The government (greens) actually forced ESB to take this track with charge points. They had to do as their masters told them

2. ESB does pay over €250M in dividends to the government every year and has reduced price.

You might want to learn some facts before you let rip.

How about adding to the debate instead of letting rip on my views.

The ESB only listen to their masters when they want to. The Government recommended wage moderation and it fell on deaf ears. I know the ESB pays a dividend to the state but they can obviously afford to pay more as they seem to have plenty of spare cash for pet projects, in this case electric cars, but also renewable energy sources overseas.

IMO car makers should be left to lead the way on this rather than an energy company. Fuel consumption and emissions have improved greatly for most mainstream manufacturers in recent years so they are moving in the right direction.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 11-05-2011 08:06AM

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

How about adding to the debate instead of letting rip on my views. ..

So sorry.:( I think correcting blatant inaccuracy does add to any debate. It's wild unfounded statments that detract from any discussion.

ixtlan · 11-05-2011 09:48AM

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Not really a valid comparision, if you wanted to use the DVD you would have to say:

"When DVD first came out they were 1000pounds, nobody bought them as we had an existing solution that contained 5 times the data, less than half the price,faster transfer rates and could be used in any device, unlike your DVD that can only be used in a select few devices"

:pac:

Actually I'm not even quite sure whether you are being sarcastic or not!

People had VHS tape devices...
That could record while DVD could not.
Were a tiny fraction of the DVD cost.
Had a massive rental library available while DVD had almost nothing.
Could play the home movies tapes that people had created.
Allowed sharing of tapes because all your friends and family had them too.

etc etc etc....

ix.

11-05-2011 09:53AM

PADRAIC.M wrote: »

Yeah I know I didn't believe until I seen it, its not in production yet these are test vehicles only, and after 3 years Toyota want them back for testing so maybe then production, but these larger batteries are pretty big...

As far as I'm aware the ONLY plug in Hybrid Toyota has on the way is in 2012 with an all e.v range of only 12 miles!

12 miles wouldn't get me to to the nearest supermarket and back!

Feck sake I could convert my 07 for a range of 20 miles!

Matt Simis · 11-05-2011 10:00AM

ixtlan wrote: »

Actually I'm not even quite sure whether you are being sarcastic or not!

People had VHS tape devices...
That could record while DVD could not.
Were a tiny fraction of the DVD cost.
Had a massive rental library available while DVD had almost nothing.
Could play the home movies tapes that people had created.
Allowed sharing of tapes because all your friends and family had them too.

etc etc etc....

ix.

I think his point was that unlike with VHS vs DVD, the ICE engines of today offer better performance in virtually all metrics. Aside from recording ability, in pure performance stakes VHS was woeful $hite so the upsell was an easy value add to the consumer. EVs do not have this. They had a list of crippling limitations with the decade+ promise of "it will get better".

waxon-waxoff · 11-05-2011 10:05AM

Gael Thoughtless Vomit wrote: »

So sorry.:( I think correcting blatant inaccuracy does add to any debate. It's wild unfounded statments that detract from any discussion.

Why dont you tell us why electric cars are going to be a success, you would know after all you work in the ESB, right?

Sesshoumaru · 11-05-2011 10:12AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

LOL it wasn't you I saw in the red leaf Friday evening in on the M9 then was it?

And congratulations, you must be very happy with being one of the first in Ireland to own an E.V!

I really envy you at this very moment!

So how do you find it?

I am sorry to say, but I feel the motorway is no place for slow vehicles, and they should change the rules which currently allow 30 mph minimum speed vehicles, There should be a minimum and max limit on roads!

No mine is black I do however find myself keeping it around 90kph to 100kph when on motorways. I don't disagree with having a minimum speed limit, but I think 80 or 90 kph is perfectly fine as long as you are sticking to the driving lane. If you want to overtake you can accelerate to match traffic in the overtaking lane.

I'm really liking the car so far. It's quiet, refined, lots of gadgets and is quite spacious. We fit two kids in the back, sometimes with mother-in-law in between and still have room in the boot for buggies/shopping etc. Performance and handling are decent. Lots of torque, 50/50 weight distribution and 108bhp. It's a good mid sized hatch

Matt Simis · 11-05-2011 10:29AM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

No mine is black I do however find myself keeping it around 90kph to 100kph when on motorways. I don't disagree with having a minimum speed limit, but I think 80 or 90 kph is perfectly fine as long as you are sticking to the driving lane.

Please ensure you do, that speed is very annoying to be behind!

Sesshoumaru · 11-05-2011 10:30AM

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

IMO car makers should be left to lead the way on this rather than an energy company. Fuel consumption and emissions have improved greatly for most mainstream manufacturers in recent years so they are moving in the right direction.

Right direction with the wrong technology. Can technology based on oil extraction/refining/burning ever be zero emissions? Sometimes government needs to nurture an industry/technology and once it's on its own two feet can be left to flourish by itself. Example:

Space has been domain of national space agencies since the dawn of the space age. But now with support from governments, companies like Virgin Galactic and SpaceX are starting to produce credible space vehicles.

hartnett_mark · 11-05-2011 10:34AM

I think those electric cars are future but oil companies will not allow to launch expansion of them because they will lose too much.

11-05-2011 10:37AM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

No mine is black I do however find myself keeping it around 90kph to 100kph when on motorways. I don't disagree with having a minimum speed limit, but I think 80 or 90 kph is perfectly fine as long as you are sticking to the driving lane. If you want to overtake you can accelerate to match traffic in the overtaking lane.

I'm really liking the car so far. It's quiet, refined, lots of gadgets and is quite spacious. We fit two kids in the back, sometimes with mother-in-law in between and still have room in the boot for buggies/shopping etc. Performance and handling are decent. Lots of torque, 50/50 weight distribution and 108bhp. It's a good mid sized hatch

I really hate you right now lol

You see where you are laughing at the rest of us is the fact you are paying nothing to run the car compared to even me in the Prius!!

Seriously, nothing compares to electricity for cheapness to run! Except of course a company car or van!

Do you have a 2nd car for longer journeys? And how do you manage with charging?

Any chance of a drive?

Sesshoumaru · 11-05-2011 10:41AM

Matt Simis wrote: »

Please ensure you do, that speed is very annoying to be behind, especially if one gets stuck in the overtaking lane when trying to pull off the motorway only to find a bumper to bumper queue of frustrated people riding up a slow movers ass.

I think (IMO only) people in cars on the motorway should stick to the motorway speed limit when lack of obstruction allows. Driving under an N roads speed limited on a motorway...

Sorry but I think you're wrong. The problem here is crap Irish drivers. If you stick to driving in the driving lane and only moving into the overtaking lane when you want to overtake, then you're never really going to cause anyone any inconvenience.

On my motorbike I don't get stuck behind slow idiotic Irish car drivers hogging the overtaking lane. As I pass these stupid drivers I get a better overall viewpoint on this behavior, as I am not limited to a small bubble of moving space in a car. Despite traffic being very spaced out, stupid Irish car drivers for some reason just love to hog the overtaking lane even though they are driving at the same speed as people in the driving lane.

Another trait of stupid Irish car drivers is either not looking in their mirrors or they do look and still don't bother to move over when they see a car travelling at faster speed coming up behind them.

Sesshoumaru · 11-05-2011 10:47AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I really hate you right now lol

You see where you are laughing at the rest of us is the fact you are paying nothing to run the car compared to even me in the Prius!!

Seriously, nothing compares to electricity for cheapness to run! Except of course a company car or van!

Do you have a 2nd car for longer journeys? And how do you manage with charging?

Any chance of a drive?

People go on and on about the limitations of EV's, but they are very cheap to run and I think will be very long lasting. Compared to ICE cars there are far fewer components in an EV. With reduced complexity I hope will come increased reliability. In 3 to 5 years time I hope to buy a new increased capacity battery pack instead of buying a new car. For me the Leaf is potentially a 10 year investment.

*edit* Sorry, didn't answer the second question. I have a sports bike and a larger executive type scooter for my daily commute. Wifey drives the car most of the time. I drive it at weekends mostly.

Matt Simis · 11-05-2011 10:53AM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Sorry but I think you're wrong. The problem here is crap Irish drivers. If you stick to driving in the driving lane and only moving into the overtaking lane when you want to overtake, then you're never really going to cause anyone any inconvenience.

I edited my post by you got there first!
You are of course largely correct, the problem is the drivers, however the problem is compounded by the fact we only have 2 lanes, a 30-40kph delta between lanes, while legal, is dangerous. While you may look in your mirror before pulling out, the guy behind you pulling his hair out as you are going so slow may not.

Ultimately you are a slow moving obstruction forcing more people into overtaking lanes than if you were to simply drive at motorway speeds. If this is the future that awaits us when more EVs come online? More lane changing and slower trips?

11-05-2011 11:03AM

Yes found it.

http://motricity.ie/wordpress/?p=223

So this is why better place is not coming to Ireland, because the E.S.B don't want the competition and they have the cheek to talk about market domination?

So the E.S.B think that by installing tiny useless 220 volt chargers on the streets is actually a good thing?? W.T.F???

What would you want, a 5 min battery swap, or leave your car parked on the side of the road for 3-8 hours to get enough range to get home?

Fast chargers are expensive and Garage owners might think about installing 1 in each garage, that would make so much better sense than useless 220 volt chargers that no one will use! Though I bet garages will fleece people for electricity making it cost the equivalent of petrol or diesel! I can see us being ripped off for public chargers like everything else!

The thing is it should cost no more than 12 give or take, euros to drive the same distance in your E.V as your petrol or Diesel!

SO the Renault Fluence is arriving next year with a battery swap option, and as usual Ireland makes a balls of it all.

Now the article went on to say that scientists at M.I.T int he U.S say that within 3 years with nano technology advances, should allow faster charging in as much as 10 mins, and yes that is true indeed as us E-Bikers know, only even to charge a small 52 volt 20ah battery will take a charger of at least 1500-2kw at a cost of around 700 Euros+. Our batteries can charge so fast now that we just don't have the ability to charge the damn yokes that fast, nor do we really need to, 30 mins to 1 hr is easily achieved and more than good enough, but for the R.C community who need to race their cars or fly their planes it is very useful!

Even a fast charge on a Leaf takes 30 mins, and I wonder are the E.S.B installing fast chargers that can fast charge future batteries in 5 mins or will they need new ones?

To give you an idea, a 4 ah LiPo battery can be charged at 40 amps and discharged at 180 amps continuous! Amazing. Cycle life is dependent on how much capacity you use and how high you charge each cells! usually at full cycle you can expect 300-500 cycles, but can be extended to 1500-2000 with proper care and no full charges and discharges.

There is still no capacity break through yet and the LiPo are not really suited to electric cars because of cycle issues, and fire lol, abuse a LiPo and you got a massive fireball, though they are much much safer these days.

Nissan Leaf II is said to use N.M.C chemistry which will allow them to reach 200 miles (or so they say) time will tell and G.M's Volt is said to use it in their battery which they only use half by the way to extent life. Over kill in my opinion!

Sesshoumaru · 11-05-2011 11:03AM

Matt Simis wrote: »

I edited my post by you got there first!
You are of course largely correct, the problem is the drivers, however the problem is compounded by the fact we only have 2 lanes, a 30-40kph delta between lanes, while legal, is dangerous. While you may look in your mirror before pulling out, the guy behind you pulling his hair out as you are going so slow may not.

I'll be in the driving lane, unless that person is blind they should spot me well in advance on a motorway, whether it's 2 lanes or more. He/she can plan ahead for their overtaking maneuver or they can drive up my my cars ass and expect me to pull into the hard should for them.

Lets face it, the problem is Irish people (mostly) haven't been trained to drive on a motorway and many of them couldn't be bothered doing some reading on the matter by themselves. If people drove as they should on motorways, then no one should experience anything but the most minor and insignificant delays.

Sesshoumaru · 11-05-2011 11:10AM

Matt Simis wrote: »

Ultimately you are a slow moving obstruction forcing more people into overtaking lanes than if you were to simply drive at motorway speeds. If this is the future that awaits us when more EVs come online? More lane changing and slower trips?

I don't think you will disagree with me that motorway skills for the average Irish driver is very poor? With that in mind would you try to bring in a law that enforced a higher minimum speed limit?

I think the problem is Irish drivers lack of training and even if you upped the speed limit to 200kph and the minimum to 120kph, you'd still find as a car driver, driving on Irish motorways to be a frustrating experience.

Out of curiosity what would you like the minimum to be? In Dublin I find most motorways are packed with traffic anyway. On journeys between cities the motorways have very little traffic, so overtaking cars doing 90kph shouldn't be that regular an occurrence.

11-05-2011 11:15AM

Matt Simis wrote: »

I edited my post by you got there first!
You are of course largely correct, the problem is the drivers, however the problem is compounded by the fact we only have 2 lanes, a 30-40kph delta between lanes, while legal, is dangerous. While you may look in your mirror before pulling out, the guy behind you pulling his hair out as you are going so slow may not.

Ultimately you are a slow moving obstruction forcing more people into overtaking lanes than if you were to simply drive at motorway speeds. If this is the future that awaits us when more EVs come online? More lane changing and slower trips?

Yes I think so, The current E.V's are not designed for long distances, and people will have to slow down on the motorway to get more than 60 miles range!

If you are going that distance on the motorway you should not do it in an E.V @80-90 kph imo.

In Germany if you are going too slow on the motorway you can get a fine!

Now I wonder if the Germans think it's dangerous why the Irish don't?

But one thing that is dangerous is if someone comes up behind a driver doing 80-90 kph in the slow lane, they will have to slow down to that speed also, if there is traffic in the right land he will not be able to get out to over take. The traffic in the right lane can be doing speeds 140 kph and above, so the driver in the left lane will have to pull out at 80-90 kph and accelerate like mad to match the speed of traffic coming from behind in the right lane. That is dangerous no doubt about it!

So should there be a minimum speed limit? yes and 120 kph should be the speed at which traffic drives no more and no less. Obviously that does not apply to trucks, buses, and other traffic that the same rules don't apply!

And tractors should NOT be allowed on the motorway as I have seen on the new M9 carrying big machinery, they blocked the old M9 for years and we should be at least allowed to have the motorway in peace!

Matt Simis · 11-05-2011 11:23AM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Out of curiosity what would you like the minimum to be? In Dublin I find most motorways are packed with traffic anyway. On journeys between cities the motorways have very little traffic, so overtaking cars doing 90kph shouldn't be that regular an occurrence.

Variable limits that monitor/react to traffic density, like in a real country. The only way to manage large volumes is to speed up and slow down "blocks" of traffic. It wont work if some people want to always only drive at 60-75% of the motorway speed, and the more of them the worse the disruption is. Therefore the idea of min/max speed is outdated, there should be a "correct" speed for the block you are in (sometimes 80 and sometimes 140).

Motorways are about fluid flow, the most efficent way to do this is to have minimal speed differences. IMO 120kph is already "slow" so going even slower to accommodate emerging tech would be a massive step backwards.

Electric cars and Electricity

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