Slashing Public Sector Pay

beeno67 · 11-05-2011 10:01PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Read it again, I said tax relief

How come you can claim tax relief on the pension levy but not on the paycut. That is my point

Take a deep breath, think about it and then you will realise you have totally misunderstood this.

dissed doc · 11-05-2011 10:25PM

beeno67 wrote: »

Because, assuming you are an Intern now, you should be a second year reg in 4 years time. As a second year reg you will have a basic salary of €53K a year. Add to that the compulsory overtime, extra payments for Sunday working and what ever allowances you will still be allowed to get you will be earning at least 80k and possibly a lot closer to 100k.

Of course if you are an SHO at present you could well be an Spr in 4 years time earning a basic of €60k a year

Why do you say it is nonsensical?

he sure could! After all, for example, there are perhaps 2 SPR jobs in ENT surgery, and maybe 1 or 2 in urology. There is a huge amount in cardiology - maybe even 6?

Pigs could also fly!

You realise people have to work for overtime right? Lets see you do 80hr weeks - compulsory or lose your job. It's such a f ucking cakewalk eh?

beeno67 · 11-05-2011 10:37PM

dissed doc wrote: »

he sure could! After all, for example, there are perhaps 2 SPR jobs in ENT surgery, and maybe 1 or 2 in urology. There is a huge amount in cardiology - maybe even 6?

Pigs could also fly!

You realise people have to work for overtime right? Lets see you do 80hr weeks - compulsory or lose your job. It's such a f ucking cakewalk eh?

As a doctor yes I do realise. I have of course done it. It just bugs me when very well paid doctors who can expect to earn Over €55,000 a year basic pay before the age of 30 come on here and pretend they are low paid. Why don't you tell everyone, how much will a reg, working 80 hours a week earn?

gigino · 11-05-2011 10:39PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

PSNI also get allowances afaik.

They also get the odd bomb under their car and the odd shot in the back and the odd phone calls / intimidation. Over 300 cops have been killed up there in the past several decades, nobody - or at least I would not begrudge them their allowances. Many unfortunately also get injured etc. I'm sure they look at cops here who are better paid AND have less stress / a safer life historically. Given the IMF etc are here, why should public service salaries + pensions not at least be reduced to EC average levels?

Head The Wall · 11-05-2011 10:48PM

beeno67 wrote: »

Take a deep breath, think about it and then you will realise you have totally misunderstood this.

No, this in response to people claiming the pension levy is a paycut but it is not like the other paycut i.e they get pension relief on the pension levy therefore it's not a paycut.

Some other Ps workers claim getting no overtime or the fact that the towards 2016 plan wasn't implemented is also a paycut, this is the crap they spout on here

Vizzy · 11-05-2011 10:52PM

gigino wrote: »

WRONG again Riskymove - and you admit to being from the p.s. too.

The public service pension, after completion of service ( 30 years in the case of Gardai, 40 years in most of the rest of the public service, a lot less in the case of Judiciary etc ) is 18 months tax free lump sum FINISHING salary and a annual pension equivalent of 50% of FINISHING salary. Average finishing salary in the public secrvice, because of age, increments, promotion etc is a lot higher than the averge public service salary of 47k. So average pension is worth a hell of a lot more than 23.5k a year

Gigino you are correct in relation to the calculation of the lump sum payment of lump sum and pension of 50% of finishing salary.
However,quoting Gardai and the judiciary numbers ( 14000 Gardai and 200 maybe Judges etc) is purely misleading.
As you are so fond of averages would it not be more accurate to say that "the average public servant will only get half their finishing salary after 40 years service" ?
Also,if the "average" public service pay is €47 K,then the "average" public service pension (after 40 years service) is 50% of that i.e €23.5 K

ardmacha · 11-05-2011 10:57PM

No, this in response to people claiming the pension levy is a paycut but it is not like the other paycut i.e they get pension relief on the pension levy therefore it's not a paycut.

Don't be obtuse.

Pension levy - your salary decreases, you pay tax on the decreased salary
Pay cut - your salary decreases, you pay tax on the decreased salary

ash14 · 11-05-2011 11:08PM

gigino wrote: »

They also get the odd bomb under their car and the odd shot in the back and the odd phone calls / intimidation. Over 300 cops have been killed up there in the past several decades, nobody - or at least I would not begrudge them their allowances. Many unfortunately also get injured etc. I'm sure they look at cops here who are better paid AND have less stress / a safer life historically. Given the IMF etc are here, why should public service salaries + pensions not at least be reduced to EC average levels?

So because their job is extremely dangerous it justifies their allowances and you dont begrudge them that so.
What about the prison officers who work (understaffed)in the likes of mountjoy(one recently had his throat slashed).Or the A&E nurse who get abused nightly.Or the fireman who has a brick through his windscreen.That is before we even discuss the gardai who are for the most part unarmed(unlike the PSNI)
I take it so that you dont begrude them their allowances and rightly so but everyone on here wouldnt bat an eyelid if their pay was cut by 20/30% and would expect them to keep up their work standards.
And before the pension thing gets trotted out here is an interesting statistic for you all.The average life expectancy of a retired prison officer is 3 years.**** all use a big pension is then.Its all down to shift work and stress so bear that in mind when discussing the above.Yes i am a PS worker and yes i am a Prison Officer and yes i believe things need to change but definately not at the frontline as they earn and deserve every cent they get.If you dont believe that discuss it your friends and listen to the amount of people who say "oh i could never do that for a living its a horrible job"

gigino · 11-05-2011 11:19PM

Vizzy wrote: »

As you are so fond of averages would it not be more accurate to say that "the average public servant will only get half their finishing salary after 40 years service" ?

Also,if the "average" public service pay is €47 K,then the "average" public service pension (after 40 years service) is 50% of that i.e €23.5 K

WRONG. As said before, the public service pension, after completion of service ( 30 years in the case of Gardai, 40 years in most of the rest of the public service, a lot less in the case of Judiciary etc ) is 18 months tax free lump sum FINISHING salary and a annual pension equivalent of 50% of FINISHING salary. Average finishing salary in the public secrvice, because of age, increments, promotion etc is a lot higher than the averge public service salary of 47k. So average pension is worth a hell of a lot more than 23.5k a year

gigino · 11-05-2011 11:23PM

ash14 wrote: »

So because their job is extremely dangerous it justifies their allowances and you dont begrudge them that so.

The police force in N. Ireland that is, because they are paid less than the Gardai here for example, and yet so many of them have been killed / injured over say the past 40 years. Anyway people here in this country should not be so concerned with other jurisdictions salary levels ; its government expenditure in this state which has doubled in the past 10 years. The IMF is here, we should get our own house in order

bryaner · 11-05-2011 11:25PM

gigino wrote: »

To many people the above is quite extravagent expenditure. 600 euro a year on phone for example? 264 a year on refuse? 444 a year on tv ? Room for economising there a bit for many people.

Your some pr*ck, how dare you get on to someone about their expenses, €264 per year is standard for refuse disposal outside of Dublin, €600 per a year is standard for 2 mobile phones per year (very helpful when applying for jobs).

€180 per year for tv licence + a small sub next thing you will be telling the man to live in a cardboard box and be happy. I'm well and truly buggered off with your condescending tripe, head back to your cave you Neanderthal..

Vizzy · 11-05-2011 11:30PM

gigino wrote: »

WRONG. As said before, the public service pension, after completion of service ( 30 years in the case of Gardai, 40 years in most of the rest of the public service, a lot less in the case of Judiciary etc ) is 18 months tax free lump sum FINISHING salary and a annual pension equivalent of 50% of FINISHING salary. Average finishing salary in the public secrvice, because of age, increments, promotion etc is a lot higher than the averge public service salary of 47k. So average pension is worth a hell of a lot more than 23.5k a year

Sorry to be pedantic( and correct) but ......

You have stated on numerous occasions that the average public sector pay is €47 K

If this is the case and every public servant retired in the morning on full service they would get €23.5 K each irrespective of age,increments,promotion or anything else.
Pure mathematics

bryaner · 11-05-2011 11:33PM

Vizzy wrote: »

Sorry to be pedantic( and correct) but ......

You have stated on numerous occasions that the average public sector pay is €47 K

If this is the case and every public servant retired in the morning on full service they would get €23.5 K each irrespective of age,increments,promotion or anything else.
Pure mathematics

He's a one trick pony with no tricks..

Vizzy · 11-05-2011 11:34PM

gigino wrote: »

The police force in N. Ireland that is, because they are paid less than the Gardai here for example, and yet so many of them have been killed / injured over say the past 40 years. Anyway people here in this country should not be so concerned with other jurisdictions salary levels ; its government expenditure in this state which has doubled in the past 10 years. The IMF is here, we should get our own house in order

That is rich coming from you as you constantly quote salary comparisons between Ireland and the UK and NI.
Unbelievable !!

gigino · 11-05-2011 11:35PM

bryaner wrote: »

Your some pr*ck,

charming

bryaner wrote: »

how dare you get on to someone about their expenses, €264 per year is standard for refuse disposal outside of Dublin, €600 per a year is standard for 2 mobile phones per year (very helpful when applying for jobs).

I did not get on to someone about their expenses, I pointed out money could be saved / not necessarily spent on the above eg refuse delivery is not standard @ 264 per year outside of Dublin. Many people do not spend 600 per tyear on their own one phone. etc

gigino · 11-05-2011 11:40PM

"the public service pension, after completion of service ( 30 years in the case of Gardai, 40 years in most of the rest of the public service, a lot less in the case of Judiciary etc ) is 18 months tax free lump sum FINISHING salary and a annual pension equivalent of 50% of FINISHING salary. Average finishing salary in the public secrvice, because of age, increments, promotion etc is a lot higher than the averge public service salary of 47k. So average pension is worth a hell of a lot more than 23.5k a year"

Vizzy wrote: »

If this is the case and every public servant retired in the morning on full service they would get €23.5 K each irrespective of age,increments,promotion or anything else.

if , if, if. When public servants retire after completion of service they are better paid than the average public servant - because of age, promotion, increments etc. Thats why the average pension is worth considerably more than 23.5k a year

bryaner · 11-05-2011 11:45PM

gigino wrote: »

To many people the above is quite extravagent expenditure. 600 euro a year on phone for example? 264 a year on refuse? 444 a year on tv ? Room for economising there a bit for many people.

2 mobiles @ €25 per month not extortion nor the bins, and lord jaysus leave the man with a bit of telly.

Head The Wall · 11-05-2011 11:50PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Don't be obtuse.

Pension levy - your salary decreases, you pay tax on the decreased salary
Pay cut - your salary decreases, you pay tax on the decreased salary

Let me dumb it down more for you and the two PS guys that don't understand it either

Pension levy - your salary decreases as you now have to contribute more to your pension, you pay tax on the decreased salary and receive tax relief on this as it is a pension contribution

Pay cut - your salary decreases, you pay tax on the decreased salary

A paycut is what happens when your gross pay is cut, this has happened once, gross pay was not affected with the pension levy.

If you think that that every time take home pay is reduced it is a pay cut well thats your issue, do you class the USC or an increase in income tax as more paycuts

Ye love to quote net pay figures instead of gross pay figures so maybe that is why ye can't understand it

bryaner · 11-05-2011 11:51PM

gigino wrote: »

"the public service pension, after completion of service ( 30 years in the case of Gardai, 40 years in most of the rest of the public service, a lot less in the case of Judiciary etc ) is 18 months tax free lump sum FINISHING salary and a annual pension equivalent of 50% of FINISHING salary. Average finishing salary in the public secrvice, because of age, increments, promotion etc is a lot higher than the averge public service salary of 47k. So average pension is worth a hell of a lot more than 23.5k a year"

if , if, if. When public servants retire after completion of service they are better paid than the average public servant - because of age, promotion, increments etc. Thats why the average pension is worth considerably more than 23.5k a year

Again absolute bull**** and I know what a recent grade 6 retire is getting..

Vizzy · 11-05-2011 11:53PM

gigino wrote: »

"the public service pension, after completion of service ( 30 years in the case of Gardai, 40 years in most of the rest of the public service, a lot less in the case of Judiciary etc ) is 18 months tax free lump sum FINISHING salary and a annual pension equivalent of 50% of FINISHING salary. Average finishing salary in the public secrvice, because of age, increments, promotion etc is a lot higher than the averge public service salary of 47k. So average pension is worth a hell of a lot more than 23.5k a year"

if , if, if. When public servants retire after completion of service they are better paid than the average public servant - because of age, promotion, increments etc. Thats why the average pension is worth considerably more than 23.5k a year

You are not getting it I'm afraid.

I am quoting your figure(and that of the CSO) of €47 K as an average.
Many will earn a lot more,possibly multiples of this( e.g.chief executive of semi state) but the majority will earn less.

Now,if any(or all) of them retire tomorrow on full service they will get half of the salary that they are currently receiving.
And,the CSO state that on average public servants are or were earning €47 K per annum hence they now qualify for a pension of €23.5 K

kippy · 11-05-2011 11:54PM

gigino wrote: »

WRONG. As said before, the public service pension, after completion of service ( 30 years in the case of Gardai, 40 years in most of the rest of the public service, a lot less in the case of Judiciary etc ) is 18 months tax free lump sum FINISHING salary and a annual pension equivalent of 50% of FINISHING salary. Average finishing salary in the public secrvice, because of age, increments, promotion etc is a lot higher than the averge public service salary of 47k. So average pension is worth a hell of a lot more than 23.5k a year

Have you any figures bar hearsay to back up the claims you are making about average finishing salary?
Not everyone in the public service manages to move into jobs paying over 47K a year in their career (index linking over time taken into account)
How much is a hell of a lot more than 23.5k a year? You have no figures at all to back up anything you are saying.
Increments don't continue to go up until infinity based on the amount of time you are in the service. There is a cap - once you reach the top of the scale thats it unless you move jobs. Not many people in the past 3 years have been able to get "promotions" as they aren't generally available.

Jimmy, you've always bandied about figures as if they are gospel fact - you tend to keep spouting them - despite not having anything to back them up and this tactic usually works.
Another figure - approximately 10K of any public service pension annually (right now) will be made up of the state pension, which most people get. Assuming, and I am just gonna use this figure of 23.5K, the portion of that which is as a result of working for the public service is approximately 13.5K
Its not exactly a massive amount extra for working in the public service -
as I said in the previous post, I aint agreeing that it sould stay as it is and I defo amnt saying that the "lump sum" shouldnt be taxed but theres lots of people out there that would have you believe public servants were taking the piss with their massive pensions and "perks". Granted that 10K that everyone gets becomes less of a percentage of your pension if you finished on "a hell of a lot more" than 47K.

bryaner · 11-05-2011 11:55PM

gigino wrote: »

charming

I did not get on to someone about their expenses, I pointed out money could be saved / not necessarily spent on the above eg refuse delivery is not standard @ 264 per year outside of Dublin. Many people do not spend 600 per tyear on their own one phone. etc

Well get my refuse collection cheaper for me so (not delivery btw)..

gigino · 12-05-2011 12:01AM

Vizzy wrote: »

You are not getting it I'm afraid.

I am quoting your figure(and that of the CSO) of €47 K as an average.
Many will earn a lot more,possibly multiples of this( e.g.chief executive of semi state) but the majority will earn less.

Now,if any(or all) of them retire tomorrow on full service they will get half of the salary that they are currently receiving.
And,the CSO state that on average public servants are or were earning €47 K per annum hence they now qualify for a pension of €23.5 K

rubbish, as pension is based on FINISHING salary at completion of full service - not average salary across all grades.

The average public servant retiring after 40 years service is on a considerably higher salary than the average public servant, due to promotion, increments etc ....hence the pension is considerably higher

mlumley · 12-05-2011 12:03AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Let me dumb it down more for you and the two PS guys that don't understand it either

Pension levy - your salary decreases as you now have to contribute more to your pension, you pay tax on the decreased salary and receive tax relief on this as it is a pension contribution

Just a bit of miss-understanding there. Pension levy is a pay cut. No extra is put into PS pensions. The PS get no benifit from this, it is a plain and simple pay cut. My wife is a PS worker, that's how I know.

Lets look at it from another point of view.

Cut PS pay, government save money. PS does not have the same amount of take home pay. They have less to spend in local shops. Shops dont take as much money, how do they keep their business going, lay off a couple of workers. Unemployment goes up, less tax take from less workers. Less VAT, less tax from proffits from shops. More to pay out in unemployment benifits.
I dont know the answer, but reducing the amount of cash flowing in the economy is not the answer to getting the economy growing, it only ads to the problem.

Welease · 12-05-2011 12:11AM

mlumley wrote: »

Just a bit of miss-understanding there. Pension levy is a pay cut. No extra is put into PS pensions. The PS get no benifit from this, it is a plain and simple pay cut. My wife is a PS worker, that's how I know.

But the reverse is also true..

If it was a paycut, then the final salary of a PS worker would be lower, and this would be reflected in the pension payout upon retirement, however that is not the case... So I'm not sure how you can claim no benefit.

Yes, take home pay is less.. considerably so.. but it is not a clear cut as people on either side try to make it..

Vizzy · 12-05-2011 12:17AM

gigino wrote: »

rubbish, as pension is based on FINISHING salary at completion of full service - not average salary across all grades.

The average public servant retiring after 40 years service is on a considerably higher salary than the average public servant, due to promotion, increments etc ....hence the pension is considerably higher

I'll try one more time !

If one public servant ( an average public servant) retires on full service on a salary €47 k he will receive €23.5 K .Are we in agreement so far ?

Right,the CSO have stated that "on average" public servants earn €47 K per annum.
This takes in to account people who are new to the system with 5 or10 years service and earning less than €47 k and also the people who have 30 or 35 or even 40 years service who are probably earning more than €47 K.
That is what an average is.

sollar · 12-05-2011 12:18AM

Edit

gigino · 12-05-2011 12:39AM

Vizzy wrote: »

This takes in to account people who are new to the system with 5 or10 years service and earning less than €47 k and also the people who have 30 or 35 or even 40 years service who are probably earning more than €47 K.
That is what an average is.

exactly. The people of retirement age are on more than 47k on average ( due to increments, age, promotion ) and their pension is based on their finishing salary. NOT the average salary in the public service across all grades / ages / people.

If you were in the public sector you would understand.

Vizzy · 12-05-2011 12:53AM

gigino wrote: »

exactly. The people of retirement age are on more than 47k on average ( due to increments, age, promotion ) and their pension is based on their finishing salary. NOT the average salary in the public service across all grades / ages / people.

If you were in the public sector you would understand.

Afraid the CSO disagree with you on this,they have stated that the average public servant earns €47 K and this caters for all grades ages etc
As I have said there are people on more than this and many on less but on average they all earn €47 K
You cant on the one hand use averages in relation to the level of pay in the public sector and then disregard the average because it suits your argument in relation to pensions.

12-05-2011 12:55AM

Vizzy wrote: »

Afraid the CSO disagree with you on this,they have stated that the average public servant earns €47 K and this caters for all grades ages etc
As I have said there are people on more than this and many on less but on average they all earn €47 K
You cant on the one hand use averages in relation to the level of pay in the public sector and then disregard the average because it suits your argument in relation to pensions.

I think you're missing the point.
We are all in agreement that 47k is the average for all ages.
However as pensions are based on final salary, the average for all ages cannot apply, as younger employees nowhere near retirement will naturally be on lower wages.

Slashing Public Sector Pay

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