Sorry but college is not only for those with money

steddyeddy · 27-07-2011 07:27PM #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0727/1224301447113.html

Third-level fees cannot be ruled out, says Quinn

MINISTER for Education Ruairí Quinn has again refused to rule out the return of college fees as he acknowledged the funding crisis in the higher education sector.

The Minister told yesterday’s meeting of the Higher Education Authority (HEA) the funding crisis in higher education will “not go away” for many years to come. Asked if new charges were planned he said: “I honestly can’t say. We are looking for efficiencies in the system at third level.
“I am not ruling anything in or out until we get into the detailed negotiations with the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure . . . I have said to Brendan Howlin that I will deliver.”
At present, the €9 billion education budget accounts for 16 per cent of Government spending.
Mr Quinn said he was examining new, “more creative ways” of reducing spending.
He also hinted that possible cuts in the capital budget for higher education may help to alleviate the funding crisis.
The Government’s approach to fees is likely to be shaped by a forthcoming report on third-level funding. Mr Quinn has asked the the authority to examine the funding crisis ahead of expected Cabinet discussions in the autumn on possible new charges.
The authority’s report is expected to conclude that the current funding model is unsustainable. Earlier this year, the Hunt report said annual funding for higher education must increase by €500 million a year, from €1.3 billion to €1.8 billion by 2020 if academic quality and the full range of student services were to be maintained.
Mr Quinn, has also conceded it is “hard to see” how higher education can meet the targets set for it by Government without new revenue streams.
From September, students face a €2,000 registration fee – up from €1,500 last year. During the election campaign, Mr Quinn made a commitment to reverse the increase in the fee but he has rowed back on this.
Authority chairman John Hennessy said he hoped the forthcoming funding or sustainability study will “form a sound basis for the policy decisions that need to be made in this complex but vital area”.
He was speaking at a ceremony marking the 40th anniversary of the legislation establishing the the authority.
He also pointed out how close to 70 per cent of current school leavers proceed to higher education compared with just 10 per cent in the 1960s. On graduate standards, Mr Hennessy said Ireland continued to enjoy an enviable reputation for the quality of our graduates and the system that nurtures them. “But there are, increasingly, dissonant voices in the chorus of approval. And we ignore them at our gravest peril, economic and social.”

Remember that just before the election the minister promised he wouldnt introduce fees. This could be another roscommon thing. Its an absolute disgrace.

Einhard · 27-07-2011 07:30PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0727/1224301447113.html

Remember that just before the election the minister promised he wouldnt introduce fees. This could be another roscommon thing. Its an absolute disgrace.

Someone with a college degree earns, on average, more than someone without such a degree. Where's the equity then, in requiring those who do not go to university, to subsidise the higher wage earning potential of those who do? What's wrong with asking people to contribute towards the huge competitive advantage they get through college?

Cuddlesworth · 27-07-2011 07:34PM

Einhard wrote: »

Someone with a college degree earns, on average, more than someone without such a degree. Where's the equity then, in requiring those who do not go to university, to subsidise the higher wage earning potential of those who do? What's wrong with asking people to contribute towards the huge competitive advantage they get through college?

That's one way to look at it. Another is that by having no fee's, those with lower wages can afford to have kids who can go to College and earn higher wages. In the same way that those who can't afford healthcare can get it, or transport or the means to eat.

steddyeddy · 27-07-2011 07:36PM

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

That's one way to look at it. Another is that by having no fee's, those with lower wages can afford to have kids who can go to College and earn higher wages. In the same way that those who can't afford healthcare can get it, or transport or the means to eat.

Exactly by increasing fees you are getting rid of social mobility and keeping people in the one class their whole lives.

amacachi · 27-07-2011 07:37PM

Einhard wrote: »

Someone with a college degree earns, on average, more than someone without such a degree. Where's the equity then, in requiring those who do not go to university, to subsidise the higher wage earning potential of those who do? What's wrong with asking people to contribute towards the huge competitive advantage they get through college?

Since you said yourself graduates earn more they also pay more income tax, easily paying back the cost of their fees during their lifetime.

I'm in favour of fees but I dislike poor arguments. :pac:

IsThisIt??? · 27-07-2011 07:38PM

Einhard wrote: »

Someone with a college degree earns, on average, more than someone without such a degree. Where's the equity then, in requiring those who do not go to university, to subsidise the higher wage earning potential of those who do? What's wrong with asking people to contribute towards the huge competitive advantage they get through college?

Yes thats one end of the arguement and the other is that college should be available to everyone and if fees are brought in not everyone will be able to afford it and also Ireland needs a skilled workforce. All these points were made last time around.

The way I see it is these fees will be brought in eventually and it will be another promise the government goes back on. It's not that I want them brought in, it just seems inevitable and while I'm sure many will keep fighting against it, selfishly, I hope I'm out of college by the time this happens.

Einhard · 27-07-2011 07:41PM

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

That's one way to look at it. Another is that by having no fee's, those with lower wages can afford to have kids who can go to College and earn higher wages. In the same way that those who can't afford healthcare can get it, or transport or the means to eat.

Which I disagree with straight up fees, ad would favour a graduate tax or levy.

amacachi wrote: »

Since you said yourself graduates earn more they also pay more income tax, easily paying back the cost of their fees during their lifetime.

I'm in favour of fees but I dislike poor arguments. :pac:

Hmmm that's a good point...

Still think there should be some form of fees though. We can't afford a top class university sector through taxation alone.

amacachi · 27-07-2011 07:43PM

Einhard wrote: »

Hmmm that's a good point...

Whatever happens it should end up with people paying the cost of the fees back, with interest, rather than it being a life-long tax.

cursai · 27-07-2011 07:50PM

amacachi wrote: »

Since you said yourself graduates earn more they also pay more income tax, easily paying back the cost of their fees during their lifetime.

I'm in favour of fees but I dislike poor arguments. :pac:

Sounds like you had the money to have this kind of opinion in the first place. Hows does someone who comes from nothing with no family or financial support who is just as smart as you get access to the same opportunities as you. Including a debt burden at the end of their college life cycle!

Dravokivich · 27-07-2011 07:50PM

right so, free college... with eh... what money? Isn't the government broke and heavily stuck to cut costs?

cursai wrote: »

Sounds like you had the money to have this kind of opinion in the first place. Hows does someone who comes from nothing with no family or financial support who is just as smart as you get access to the same opportunities as you. Including a debt burden at the end of their college life cycle!

There are sponsored scholarship programmes. Kick ass and get yourself in there.

Conor_M1990 · 27-07-2011 07:57PM

why not bring in a loan system like the UK

Chuck Stone · 27-07-2011 07:59PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Exactly by increasing fees you are getting rid of social mobility and keeping people in the one class their whole lives.

Do you have a source for this?

amacachi wrote: »

graduates earn more they also pay more income tax, easily paying back the cost of their fees during their lifetime.

I'm in favour of fees but I dislike poor arguments. :pac:

This is simplistic reasoning and I'm not sure how true it is. Many people who come through 3rd level are not net contributers to the tax take.

Teachers, Social workers, Nurses etc become an extra cost to the state.

Also, many graduates will emigrate and will never pay anything in tax.

Kensington · 27-07-2011 08:01PM

cursai wrote: »

Sounds like you had the money to have this kind of opinion in the first place. Hows does someone who comes from nothing with no family or financial support who is just as smart as you get access to the same opportunities as you. Including a debt burden at the end of their college life cycle!

Grants and scholarships (which, by the way, should be linked to progress and academic performance)

amacachi · 27-07-2011 08:01PM

cursai wrote: »

Sounds like you had the money to have this kind of opinion in the first place. Hows does someone who comes from nothing with no family or financial support who is just as smart as you get access to the same opportunities as you. Including a debt burden at the end of their college life cycle!

Heh, you're not particularly good at judging people from just text.

Nijmegen · 27-07-2011 08:03PM

Free fees arrived as an electioneering giveaway in 1995 and as well as not saving that government it didn't open up access to higher education for poorer students.

The OECD looked at this at the request of the Irish government and said so.

Free fees are a social benefit for middle class families.

Introduce a student loan system (or similar) and give waivers to poor people through means testing.

pragmatic1 · 27-07-2011 08:03PM

If they have a system of loans for students like in the UK it wouldnt be too bad. That way its still accessible and colleges get much needed funds. Shouldnt be too hard to work that out seeing as the state basically owns the banks at this stage.

People who dont get the grant already pay fairly high registration fees as it is.

steddyeddy · 27-07-2011 08:03PM

amacachi wrote: »

Heh, you're not particularly good at judging people from just text.

In fairness he has a point (not about you) but how many people coming from a well off background have clue one when It comes to how hard it is for disadvantaged groups to go to college?

amacachi · 27-07-2011 08:03PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Do you have a source for this?

This is simplistic reasoning and I'm not sure how true it is. Many people who come through 3rd level are not net contributers to the tax take.

Teachers, Social workers, Nurses etc become an extra cost to the state.

Also, many graduates will emigrate and will never pay anything in tax.

The more you earn, the more tax you pay, you're right, it's quite simple really. Also the vast majority of people I know who've fcuked off in the last few years left school at 16 or 17.

Should we start hiring non-graduates for the three jobs you've mentioned?

amacachi · 27-07-2011 08:09PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness he has a point (not about you) but how many people coming from a well off background have clue one when It comes to how hard it is for disadvantaged groups to go to college?

The money shouldn't have to be paid upfront if people can't afford them. I'd also support grants still being paid out.

Einhard · 27-07-2011 08:10PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness he has a point (not about you) but how many people coming from a well off background have clue one when It comes to how hard it is for disadvantaged groups to go to college?

Actually, it's not all that hard. Well, it wasn't when I went to college in the early part of the last decade. Nobody is stating that fees should be charged for disadvantaged students anyway, so you're point isn't applicable. If the issue is dealt with properly, then this could actually have benefits for the disadvantaged. As another poster has pointed out, there's little evidence to suggest that free fees broke down entrenched patterns of education disadvantage in the state. With more $$$ coming in from middle- and upper- class students, there would ideally be more money to help the less well-off.

Jam · 27-07-2011 08:12PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

There are sponsored scholarship programmes. Kick ass and get yourself in there.

Because the amount of scholarships available will totally cover all the talented, but poor, candidates out there? Do you have any idea how tough those are to get into? I'm on a two-month scholarship to Germany and this was an 'easy' one to get into with a ratio of only 32 applicants : 15 places.

How about proper structuring of the courses? Does the country really need all those business degrees? Or Catering courses? (I make an exception for cookery.) I know I'm going to get argued where does one draw the line. Graduate hiring levels, perhaps?

I had a "Communications" module for one semester in 1st year. Note we weren't taught the technical details of telecommunications or PC interfacing, that would have been useful in my technical degree. We were lectured at on the basic theory of how humans communicate. I couldn't believe this woman was being paid a salary to tell me the obvious.

steddyeddy · 27-07-2011 08:14PM

amacachi wrote: »

The money shouldn't have to be paid upfront if people can't afford them. I'd also support grants still being paid out.

Well I agree with your point but I do genuinly want to know how many are calling for fees to be introduced who havent a clue about the struggle the less well off go through to get through college or even to get to it in the first place.

amacachi · 27-07-2011 08:17PM

On the topic of the current situation for poorer students free fees and 3k a year (or 6k if living a good while away) wasn't enough to convince many to go to college.
I'd like to see the impact on 2nd level fee-paying institutions if parents had to worry about college fees later on.

7sr2z3fely84g5 · 27-07-2011 08:17PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I agree with your point but I do genuinly want to know how many are calling for fees to be introduced who havent a clue about the struggle the less well off go through to get through college or even to get to it in the first place.

Nobody cares,i think some of those who go on the dole after leaving school do want go to col but issues on fees/grants holds some back.

steddyeddy · 27-07-2011 08:18PM

Madilynn Huge Smallpox wrote: »

Nobody cares,i think some of those who go on the dole after leaving school do want go to col but issues on fees/grants holds some back.

+ 1000 someone who gets it

amacachi · 27-07-2011 08:19PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I agree with your point but I do genuinly want to know how many are calling for fees to be introduced who havent a clue about the struggle the less well off go through to get through college or even to get to it in the first place.

Parents on the dole, I got into DCU, quit after a year then got into Trinity and my sister got in the following year.
If you're talking about finance alone then 3k a year for going to a college around the corner and not paying any fees should be enough to encourage anyone to go.

Dravokivich · 27-07-2011 08:23PM

Jam wrote: »

Because the amount of scholarships available will totally cover all the talented, but poor, candidates out there? Do you have any idea how tough those are to get into? I'm on a two-month scholarship to Germany and this was an 'easy' one to get into with a ratio of only 32 applicants : 15 places.

Yes actually I do... my brother busted his balls to get into 1.

steddyeddy · 27-07-2011 08:23PM

Einhard wrote: »

Actually, it's not all that hard. Well, it wasn't when I went to college in the early part of the last decade. Nobody is stating that fees should be charged for disadvantaged students anyway, so you're point isn't applicable.

No one is saying that their not so I see no reason not to be concerned.

If the issue is dealt with properly, then this could actually have benefits for the disadvantaged. As another poster has pointed out, there's little evidence to suggest that free fees broke down entrenched patterns of education disadvantage in the state. With more $$$ coming in from middle- and upper- class students, there would ideally be more money to help the less well-off.

There is a lot more than the initial fees that holds people back from attending college eg paying rent, book fees, lab equitment reg fees ect. There are currently a lot of less well of people dropping out of college right now. The disadvantaged are not being protected at the moment and I see no indication in the remarks of mr.quinn that more effort will be put into disadvantaged groups.

Einhard · 27-07-2011 08:25PM

Madilynn Huge Smallpox wrote: »

Nobody cares,i think some of those who go on the dole after leaving school do want go to col but issues on fees/grants holds some back.

I don't understand how the average school leaver could be completely put off going to college because of expense. Considering fees are free at the moment, and the highest rate of grant is over €6000, which would cover accom in Tokyo, let alone Dublin, all one has to supply is one's living expenses, which could easily be kept at €12-15k for a four year course. That might seem like a large amount, but the Credit Union offers 5 year loans at competitive rates.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that it'd easy, or that nothing should be done to make it easier, but I think the mantra about people not being able to afford college is overdone.

Besides which, a properly administered system of fees, or preferably a graduate loan system, would actually make it easier for the disadvantaged to avil of university education.

7sr2z3fely84g5 · 27-07-2011 08:25PM

The grant system is bit warped,either have to be on the poverty line or self employed to gain it,those who work and contribute to the tax system are usually not entitled to it due to the threshold.

i even think it would be hard for col students to find part time work.

Einhard · 27-07-2011 08:28PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

There is a lot more than the initial fees that holds people back from attending college eg paying rent, book fees, lab equitment reg fees ect.

Yes, and a graduate loan system would enable people to meet those expenses, and all others whilst in college, thus opening the opportunity to people from deprived backgrounds.

There are currently a lot of less well of people dropping out of college right now.

Do you have evidence for this? And if so, compared to when?

The disadvantaged are not being protected at the moment and I see no indication in the remarks of mr.quinn that more effort will be put into disadvantaged groups.

So you admit they're not being protected, and you'd have to admit that there's no more cash for the system, and yet you're against fees for those who can afford it? So...what exactly is your solution?

steddyeddy · 27-07-2011 08:30PM

Madilynn Huge Smallpox wrote: »

The grant system is bit warped,either have to be on the poverty line or self employed to gain it,those who work and contribute to the tax system are usually not entitled to it due to the threshold.

i even think it would be hard for col students to find part time work.

The grant system here is lunacy there are some people who dont qaulify because they cant prove they dont get support from their parents!

montreal2011 · 27-07-2011 08:30PM

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

That's one way to look at it. Another is that by having no fee's, those with lower wages can afford to have kids who can go to College and earn higher wages. In the same way that those who can't afford healthcare can get it, or transport or the means to eat.

Those with lower wages get the registration fees refunded, grants paid, and will mostly likely be exempt from fees if they are re-introduced, just as they were exempt before they were abolished.

Dman001 · 27-07-2011 08:36PM

As a college student, there is a huge uncertainty whether we will get jobs after we graduate. So a Loan system similar to the UK isn't too bad if there is more of a certainty of jobs in the country. But no graduate wants to come out of college with no job and a few thousand euro loan hanging over their head.

I think free education is the one thing we should preserve in this climate. Introducing fees will definitely reduce the numbers attending college. And how will that work out in the long term for the economy?

7sr2z3fely84g5 · 27-07-2011 08:38PM

i think if loan system was introduced,there probably be some loophole found to get out paying it back :rolleyes:

Chuck Stone · 27-07-2011 08:38PM

amacachi wrote: »

The more you earn, the more tax you pay, you're right, it's quite simple really.

No it's not simple at all, you're missing the point. You say that graduates pay more tax. I'm saying that it's not that simple and it isn't because many graduates are not net contributers to the tax take. Many 3rd level graduates end up working for the state so they end up adding to the cost rather than contributing to the tax take.

Einhard · 27-07-2011 08:41PM

Dman001 wrote: »

As a college student, there is a huge uncertainty whether we will get jobs after we graduate. So a Loan system similar to the UK isn't too bad if there is more of a certainty of jobs in the country. But no graduate wants to come out of college with no job and a few thousand euro loan hanging over their head.

I think free education is the one thing we should preserve in this climate. Introducing fees will definitely reduce the numbers attending college. And how will that work out in the long term for the economy?

Simple solution: demand repayment of loans only after a certain income threshold has been reached.

amacachi · 27-07-2011 08:43PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

No it's not simple at all, you're missing the point. You say that graduates pay more tax. I'm saying that it's not that simple and it isn't because many graduates are not net contributers to the tax take. Many 3rd level graduates end up working for the state so they end up adding to the cost rather than contributing to the tax take.

Then what is the solution? Is there one which ends up with state employees being net contributors?

Chuck Stone · 27-07-2011 08:47PM

amacachi wrote: »

Then what is the solution? Is there one which ends up with state employees being net contributors?

Solution to what?

Dman001 · 27-07-2011 08:52PM

Einhard wrote: »

Simple solution: demand repayment of loans only after a certain income threshold has been reached.

That's fair enough, but we would want to be seeing a drastic drop in the Cost of Living in this country to make it work.

I can't understand why anyone would fight towards re-introducing Third Level fees? The free-fees system at the moment creates more of an equal opportunity for those less well off to attend college. While not perfect, there are grants available too. The second Third Level fess are re-introduced, people will complain how only the rich, upper class people can afford, and have the opportunity, to attend college.

jam_mac_jam · 27-07-2011 08:54PM

You already have to pay 2k a year, do we not have fees already.

Dman001 · 27-07-2011 08:58PM

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

You already have to pay 2k a year, do we not have fees already.

The fees at the moment are regarded as "Registration" fees. A re-introduction of actual "college" fees could be anything from €7000 or more per year.

chiloutus · 27-07-2011 08:58PM

I think some of the arguments here for fees are a little biased or just plain nonsense (not calling anyone out). Particularly the notion that if someone is having financial trouble a grant or a scholarship is the way to go. I personally busted my ass to apply for a scholarship but didn't get it! (Career guidance teacher handed me the recommendation form that she was told to write and made me write my own evaluation) and as for the grant...even though my parents struggle to pay the bills each month and the thoughts of me going to college is putting extra strain on the household expenditures I still will be getting 0 euro towards my college degree.

My parents have been both working for over 30 years and paying tax on every single penny. I believe they are entitled to send they're child to college without paying "fees" on top of the 1500 euro already mandatory. I will be working and paying taxes in Ireland if I do make it through college. But if a graduate tax is introduced, yeah I might just f*ck off to England.

amacachi · 27-07-2011 08:59PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Solution to what?

You're saying doctors, nurses, teachers etc. can never be tax neutral because they are paid by the state.

pragmatic1 · 27-07-2011 09:05PM

Dman001 wrote: »

As a college student, there is a huge uncertainty whether we will get jobs after we graduate. So a Loan system similar to the UK isn't too bad if there is more of a certainty of jobs in the country. But no graduate wants to come out of college with no job and a few thousand euro loan hanging over their head.

I think free education is the one thing we should preserve in this climate. Introducing fees will definitely reduce the numbers attending college. And how will that work out in the long term for the economy?

Yeah but in the UK you dont start paying it back until you get a job and the amount you pay back every month is proportional to your income. So I dont really see it as much of a hardship.

Chuck Stone · 27-07-2011 09:08PM

amacachi wrote: »

You're saying doctors, nurses, teachers etc. can never be tax neutral because they are paid by the state.

I don't know exactly what the numbers are but I'd say that's true, yes.

Dman001 · 27-07-2011 09:10PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Yeah but in the UK you dont start paying it back until you get a job and the amount you pay back every month is proportional to your income. So I dont really see it as much of a hardship.

Proportional to your income is another way of saying you'll be paying it back for many years to come. We could be talking about €20,000 and up for a 3 Year course.

amacachi · 27-07-2011 09:30PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I don't know exactly what the numbers are but I'd say that's true, yes.

Yes, and you're using that as an argument even when it's something that will always be "true".

Chuck Stone · 27-07-2011 10:16PM

amacachi wrote: »

Yes, and you're using that as an argument even when it's something that will always be "true".

Always is a very presumptive word to use when talking about the future. You don't have a crystal ball.

Not all services need be supplied by the state.

Tefral · 27-07-2011 10:21PM

I cant understand why we are paying for colllege students fees when they min the graduate at the moment they are going to forgein countries. We have no work here and in essence training up students to benefit other countries.

The government should put Fees for college places with the exception of those places where there is a direct need in the market place in Ireland

Dman001 · 27-07-2011 10:57PM

cronin_j wrote: »

I cant understand why we are paying for colllege students fees when they min the graduate at the moment they are going to forgein countries. We have no work here and in essence training up students to benefit other countries.

The government should put Fees for college places with the exception of those places where there is a direct need in the market place in Ireland

I don't think that is a fair argument. Graduates have no choice but to leave the country, and I'm sure many will tell you that they would have stayed in Ireland could they find a job. I'd also like to note that it was not our generation who allowed our country to be lead into the ground the way it has. Doesn't seem fair that free education to be taken away from us as a result.

As I said earlier, re-introducing fees will result in a fall in people attending college. In the long term, this could lead to a reduction in the number of qualified people in the workforce. One of the major reasons Multinationals set up here is due to our qualified workforce. If that goes, it will give them very little reason to stay here.

Sorry but college is not only for those with money

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