How property tax should be charged?

mikom · 28-07-2011 02:43AM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

First up, I agree with Property tax. The thing that everyone deals with is how it should vary. I think there is no point pegging it to value because value is way too difficult to ascertain accurately.

Therefore my proposal is:

1. 100 euro per bedroom or for every 30 square meters.
2. 200 euro extra if you don't live in it.
3. 100 euro extra if it is detached.
4. 200 euro extra if it is a one off house.

If you pay managenment fees - 50% of the fees you pay can be subtracted against what you owe the state.

*Closes laptop lid and retires to the only bedroom in his managed apartment*

tayto lover wrote: »

I paid for my house, stamp duty, mortgage etc. Tax the people who got the free houses. I'm not paying a cent because i struggled for many years to pay my mortgage nad educate my children.

Not very moral tayto lover.

tayto lover · 28-07-2011 10:14AM

mikom wrote: »

*Closes laptop lid and retires to the only bedroom in his managed apartment*

Not very moral tayto lover.

I would be going against my morals. I am willing to pay a water tax and already pay bin taxes. My property is my own after paying my mortgage for 30 years. Its nothing to do with the council or government at all. I selected where i would live and i bought the house.

donalg1 · 28-07-2011 10:24AM

I dont see how it can be calculated on the value of the property seems a bit unfair to me, i mean five years ago if my house was valued it would have been worth a lot more than it is today so I would have been paying a far higher tax than today,

so for argument sake my house is valued today and i am told to pay €250 in household tax, then the housing market picks up and in ten years time its valued again and i am told i have to pay €500 is it fair that i then have to pay the twice as much when my income certainly wont have doubled and most likely wont have risen at all.

Does anyone know when they talk about the valuation of a property determining the Household Tax to be paid, when and how often do they value your property? Do they value every property individually? Or do they say a house in the countryside in Limerick is valued at x while one in the inner city is valued at y?

Liam Byrne · 28-07-2011 11:50AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the reverse actually, so sustainable development is encouraged.
the closer to built up areas, stations etc the less you should have to pay as you are sharing the facilities between a much denser population.

Sharing WHAT facilities exactly ?

Supply the facilities and you may just possibly have a point.

But if you're talking about dividing the cost of the facilities by the numbers of people using them, then most rural people would be paying €0.

And the reference to the postman - well, last time I looked we paid for postage (as well as private bin collection, private wells, private septic tanks, private cars, etc, due to the fact that there are no facilities whatsoever).

That's not a problem, because there is a small element of choice in not wanting to live somewhere that you can see - even reach - into your neighbour's ensuite, but the fact is that we have already paid for the above.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This would encourage future developments to be denser, use less of a footprint, keep land prices in rural areas lower and leave rural land for agriculture and recreation.

Why should we "leave rural land for agriculture and recreation" ? I would agree that some of the "let's treble the size of this little village" developments were ridiculous, but even then the planners didn't follow the Spanish model, where all facilities were put in place FIRST.

The fact is that lots of us are and were already living in semi-rural areas......I bought the old home house and renovated it - would you prefer if I let it go to rack & ruin and moved into a shoebox in a city on the opposite side of the country that I detest ?

Liam Byrne · 28-07-2011 11:54AM

View wrote: »

Well, based on the way I saw it being done in the US, it was something like this.

The city/county has a network of former real estate agents who systematically estimated the market value of all property in the city/county. They usually under-estimated the market value (so it was let's say 90% of the actual value) to avoid arguments (i.e. legal cases) that the estimate was an over-estimate of the "true" market value.

Except that in Ireland they usually trebled the price of what they thought the property was actually "worth".

mikom · 28-07-2011 11:54AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I would be going against my morals. I am willing to pay a water tax and already pay bin taxes. My property is my own after paying my mortgage for 30 years. Its nothing to do with the council or government at all. I selected where i would live and i bought the house.

Nice to see free thinking.
There's hope yet.

Tigger · 28-07-2011 12:06PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

First up, I agree with Property tax. The thing that everyone deals with is how it should vary. I think there is no point pegging it to value because value is way too difficult to ascertain accurately.

Therefore my proposal is:

1. 100 euro per bedroom or for every 30 square meters.
2. 200 euro extra if you don't live in it.
3. 100 euro extra if it is detached.
4. 200 euro extra if it is a one off house.

If you pay managenment fees - 50% of the fees you pay can be subtracted against what you owe the state.

The tax is non enforcable for the first 12 months your unemployed. After that only a percentage is.

The tax is non-applicable to anyone living in a ghoust estate and only a small percentage is to anyone on the pension.

So if there state has 1.8 milllion households, I think this would generate an average of say 400 euro per household - thus raising almost 1 billion in taxes that unlike stamp duty is unlikely to fluctuate.

Anyone got a problem with it - move to a smaller house or knock down your bull sh*t holiday home that you only spend one week a year in that was probably poorly planned in the first place.

That's my proposal - how about your's?

i didn't need to look at you location to know you live in dublin

so a family of four that built a one off 210m on family land pay €1000

but a single man living in a 60m apartment pays 200 - whatever yer his management fees are , lol

bb12 · 28-07-2011 12:14PM

i paid the council a very large development contribution fee last june for my new build (>15K) for 'provision of services' in my rural location. i have my own water supply and waste water treatment. i have not seen one council car/van on my road in the past year...there are potholes and untrimmed hedges which make driving around corners fear for your life! so why oh why would i want to contribute to yet another tax for 'services'??!

Nijmegen · 28-07-2011 12:39PM

Those of you attempting to rationalise the property tax are forgetting that it's a simple smash and grab effort.

So really, they'll choose whatever method delivers the most money at least hassle (to them.)

View · 28-07-2011 02:49PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Except that in Ireland they usually trebled the price of what they thought the property was actually "worth".

I was referring to the former estate agents carrying out the estimate for the city/county in a non-sale situation (i.e. Estimating your property's value -by the city/county - does not force it to be put up for sale!)

As I also mentioned, an appeals mechanism exists as part of the process so you can challenge the estimated value if you so choose (with the important caveat, of course, that if they have under-estimated it, the estimated value could be revised upwards in the process).

Sleepy · 29-07-2011 09:28AM

Good loser wrote: »

it should be paid by

occupier rather than owner.

Get out of it.

The property tax is required due to the bad decisions of those who bought property at over-inflated prices. Those with rental properties can foot the bill for their part in the madness rather than those of us who were sensible enough to stay in the rental sector.

ei.sdraob · 29-07-2011 09:35PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Get out of it.

The property tax is required due to the bad decisions of those who bought property at over-inflated prices. Those with rental properties can foot the bill for their part in the madness rather than those of us who were sensible enough to stay in the rental sector.

Property taxes will be passed onto the renters tho as happens elsewhere

Wait till the OP gets the tax bill ontop of his 1500 management fee

Marinjohn · 29-07-2011 09:45PM

I wont be paying one way or another....Cant afford it!

Good loser · 30-07-2011 01:19AM

Sleepy wrote: »

Get out of it.

The property tax is required due to the bad decisions of those who bought property at over-inflated prices. Those with rental properties can foot the bill for their part in the madness rather than those of us who were sensible enough to stay in the rental sector.

That refers to less than 10% of the house properties in the State.

The tenant can avoid the charge by offering a lower rental. It's easier to identify and bill the occupier.

OMD · 30-07-2011 07:17AM

Sleepy wrote: »

Get out of it.

The property tax is required due to the bad decisions of those who bought property at over-inflated prices. Those with rental properties can foot the bill for their part in the madness rather than those of us who were sensible enough to stay in the rental sector.

The property tax is required to pay for services we all get. To exclude those who rent seems pointless. At least those who bought recently can argue they paid stamp duty. The tax is not needed because people bought at over inflated prices.

I would prefer a UK type system if we have to have a tax at all (which we do). Everyone pays whether owner or renter. Tax is based on value of house, split into 5 or so bands. Doesn't really matter if average price goes up or down as you will probably stay in the same overall band. Tax is set by local councils to fund local services so if you are not happy with tax rates you can vote for councillors who plan to cut services and reduce tax or if you want more services, vote for councillors who will raise the tax. Everyone has a vote so everyone pays.

Mr CJ · 30-07-2011 07:45PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

First up, I agree with Property tax. The thing that everyone deals with is how it should vary. I think there is no point pegging it to value because value is way too difficult to ascertain accurately.

Therefore my proposal is:

1. 100 euro per bedroom or for every 30 square meters.
2. 200 euro extra if you don't live in it.
3. 100 euro extra if it is detached.
4. 200 euro extra if it is a one off house.

If you pay managenment fees - 50% of the fees you pay can be subtracted against what you owe the state.

The tax is non enforcable for the first 12 months your unemployed. After that only a percentage is.

The tax is non-applicable to anyone living in a ghoust estate and only a small percentage is to anyone on the pension.

So if there state has 1.8 milllion households, I think this would generate an average of say 400 euro per household - thus raising almost 1 billion in taxes that unlike stamp duty is unlikely to fluctuate.

Anyone got a problem with it - move to a smaller house or knock down your bull sh*t holiday home that you only spend one week a year in that was probably poorly planned in the first place.

That's my proposal - how about your's?

Is this comment actually serious??

This is exactly why the honest hard working Irish person has, is and will be screwed living in Ireland when you have people willing to be screwed and who thinks triple taxation is a good idea.

How anyone can agree to this insane rip off tax no matter what way it is implemented is completely beyond believe especially when families are struggling to put a loaf of bread on the table.

Your home is yours you payed for it payed your taxes and payed all other associated charges, under no circumstances should you pay an extra cent.

People need to wake up and realise what is going on here and tell them where to go and not pay!! Enough is enough, if this comes in it will shoot up over the next few years so everyone should do what they can to prevent it from coming in and protest by not paying it.

Good loser · 31-07-2011 12:57AM

Mr CJ wrote: »

Is this comment actually serious??

This is exactly why the honest hard working Irish person has, is and will be screwed living in Ireland when you have people willing to be screwed and who thinks triple taxation is a good idea.

How anyone can agree to this insane rip off tax no matter what way it is implemented is completely beyond believe especially when families are struggling to put a loaf of bread on the table.

Your home is yours you payed for it payed your taxes and payed all other associated charges, under no circumstances should you pay an extra cent.

People need to wake up and realise what is going on here and tell them where to go and not pay!! Enough is enough, if this comes in it will shoot up over the next few years so everyone should do what they can to prevent it from coming in and protest by not paying it.

You show a serious lack of understanding of the predicament this country is in.

Do you not know by now that the gap between State revenue and expenditure is €18 billion?

That yesterday the Govt announced there are going to be tax rises for next year of €1.6 billion?

That this property tax will only raise €160 million (at best)?

Your duty as a citizen is to pay all legal charges.

I paid for my car (in 2004) and pay car tax every year since.

The ULA opposition (Socialists against a Property Tax) is mind numbingly stupid.

halkar · 31-07-2011 10:11AM

Good loser wrote: »

You show a serious lack of understanding of the predicament this country is in.

Personally I really don't give **** about predicament this country is in. Let who is responsible to clean up the mess.

Do you not know by now that the gap between State revenue and expenditure is €18 billion?

Nice isn't it. There are many ways of reducing this but no one has the b@lls to do it.

That yesterday the Govt announced there are going to be tax rises for next year of €1.6 billion?

Nice of them. Expect few more businesses to go belly up next year. And more for the dole queues.

That this property tax will only raise €160 million (at best)?

How much of that will actually come back as a service back to me?

Your duty as a citizen is to pay all legal charges.

What duty what legal charges? Property prices already included VAT, council charges for services and planning etc.

I paid for my car (in 2004) and pay car tax every year since.

So does everyone else who owns a car.

The ULA opposition (Socialists against a Property Tax) is mind numbingly stupid.

I don't think anyone opposing to paying property tax if they get any value out of it. Unfortunately all of that money will go to banks and pay for over inflated salaries of fat cats in public services.

Previous governments made fortunes on stamp duties, VAT and charges during boom years. Where is all that money gone?

Pete_Cavan · 31-07-2011 11:24AM

halkar wrote: »

Personally I really don't give **** about predicament this country is in. Let who is responsible to clean up the mess.

The people responsible for this mess are the people who consistantly voted FF into government based on their give-away budgets and rewarded FF for their short-sighted economic policies; ie. the majority of the electorate.

Bens · 31-07-2011 11:57AM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

First up, I agree with Property tax. The thing that everyone deals with is how it should vary. I think there is no point pegging it to value because value is way too difficult to ascertain accurately.

Therefore my proposal is:

1. 100 euro per bedroom or for every 30 square meters.
2. 200 euro extra if you don't live in it.
3. 100 euro extra if it is detached.
4. 200 euro extra if it is a one off house.

If you pay managenment fees - 50% of the fees you pay can be subtracted against what you owe the state.

The tax is non enforcable for the first 12 months your unemployed. After that only a percentage is.

The tax is non-applicable to anyone living in a ghoust estate and only a small percentage is to anyone on the pension.

So if there state has 1.8 milllion households, I think this would generate an average of say 400 euro per household - thus raising almost 1 billion in taxes that unlike stamp duty is unlikely to fluctuate.

Anyone got a problem with it - move to a smaller house or knock down your bull sh*t holiday home that you only spend one week a year in that was probably poorly planned in the first place.

That's my proposal - how about your's?

So how much does that make it that YOU pay?

My proposal is just to remove all property related tax reliefs.
Mortgage Interest relief.
Rental tax credits.
Investor mortgage interest relief.

That way they would raise far more than having a property tax. Everyone investing, renting or owning a house would be caught in the net. And you dont pay extra tax, you just get less of a discount on your tax. And it costs NOTHING at all to collect. They just remove the tax break you already have. And its impossible to just refuse it. What could be easier.

Maybe you shouldnt have to pay tax on your home, but Why on earth should anyone one get tax relief for where they live at all, be they renting or owning?

Bens · 31-07-2011 12:01PM

fatboypee wrote: »

I find it incredulous that we're not, on the whole kicking off about this.
The BS that everyone in Europe has a property tax so we should too is an amazing platitude that has gone largely unchallenged ?

I'm not averse to a properly rated, value linked tax for which we get something of value in return. That makes perfect sense. However, a charge on a household as a flat rate ? I get NOTHING from my local government pertaining to my house. No refuse collection, no water, no sewerage, no street lighting, no paths, nothing that relates to my abode.

And I am sick to the back teeth of the "Meh, we gotta make up the shortfall somehow" crap.

This is a tax. Nothing more. A tax for which I will receive no added benefits, it will not go to the local government to pay for where I live in any shape or form. It simply goes down the big black sink hole called the public finances.

Therefore, my view charge me if you really must but please don't further insult my intelligence by pretending it is anything other than a tax on my income for any other reason than the country is a basket case with no capable politicians on any side of the divide with any clue on how the F-ing hell we get out of it other than to beat the inhabitants over the head constantly with trumped up taxes pretending to be something else.

Exactly. I bet you wont see people coming out with "Every European country has a religion related tax so we should pay that too."

Generally its the people who didnt buy houses who want a property tax. As usual everyone wants the other person to pay more tax.

Maybe we should just have something like rates, where everyone pays just for living in an area - owning or renting. Then you'll see the people wishing for more taxes suddenly about turn.

Pete_Cavan · 31-07-2011 12:41PM

Bens wrote: »

Generally its the people who didnt buy houses who want a property tax. As usual everyone wants the other person to pay more tax.

If you rent and; (a) keep your money in the bank you pay DIRT (b) you invest your money you pay tax on income from it (c) you live it up and spend your money wildly you pay VAT on purchases. People who didnt buy houses pay tax in other ways. Why should property not be taxed as well?

Bens · 31-07-2011 12:47PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If you rent and; (a) keep your money in the bank you pay DIRT (b) you invest your money you pay tax on income from it (c) you live it up and spend your money wildly you pay VAT on purchases. People who didnt buy houses pay tax in other ways. Why should property not be taxed as well?

That one isnt going to wash. Do you think people who bought property didnt pay tax or something?

Anyway, im not saying there shouldnt be a property tax. Im saying the tax should be for living in the area, not the house. And everyone should pay it, whether they are an owner or a renter.

And first and foremost, take away all the property related tax reliefs for owners ocs, investors and renters. Its a quick win, easy to implement and police, and will raise far more money than a €100 tax on homeowners only.

Good loser · 01-08-2011 12:34AM

I don't think anyone opposing to paying property tax if they get any value out of it. Unfortunately all of that money will go to banks and pay for over inflated salaries of fat cats in public services.

Previous governments made fortunes on stamp duties, VAT and charges during boom years. Where is all that money gone?

Halkar you misunderstand taxes. They are not voluntary. They are an imposition with a penalty for non compliance. Chaos would result otherwise.

It is not up to you (or me) to decide what use or misuse a tax is put to.

If tax can be charged on car ownership why not on house ownership?

What I find absurd is socialists leading the charge against a property tax. Not that I have much time for socialists.

Dannyboy83 · 01-08-2011 05:11AM

So after a decade of everyone trying to overvalue their house, we face into a decade of everyone trying to undervalue their house.

How incredibly Irish:D

OMD · 01-08-2011 08:51AM

Bens wrote: »

My proposal is just to remove all property related tax reliefs.
Mortgage Interest relief.
Rental tax credits.
Investor mortgage interest relief.

That way they would raise far more than having a property tax. Everyone investing, renting or owning a house would be caught in the net. And you dont pay extra tax, you just get less of a discount on your tax. And it costs NOTHING at all to collect. They just remove the tax break you already have. And its impossible to just refuse it. What could be easier.

Maybe you shouldnt have to pay tax on your home, but Why on earth should anyone one get tax relief for where they live at all, be they renting or owning?

All these reliefs are being/ have been removed. The property tax is in addition to this.

Tora Bora · 01-08-2011 12:28PM

jank wrote: »

Everybody should pay rates but this money should go to local government. Councils would have to up their game alot if they were getting 1000+ euro from each household.

Here in OZ everyone pays water rates and council rates and if you own an apartment, strata fees. Depending on the rates you can be talking 2 to 3 k per year all in if not more. Strata rates could be that alone!!
Not sure what the big deal is with this being impliemented in Ireland apart from the "I'll go to Jail before I pay it Joe!!" brigade.:rolleyes:

local authorities are just as efficient at wasting money, as central government, if not more efficient at it.
Massive reform and reduction in numbers, overheads and cost needed before they get any more money. Cut, cut, cut, cut. Stop have a look around, and repeat step one again, .... three times.

The Taxpayer · 01-08-2011 04:59PM

Good loser wrote: »

If tax can be charged on car ownership why not on house ownership?

You pay road tax for using the roads and as others have said we'll get nothing we don't already have for paying property tax. If enough people choose not to pay it will end up costing more to collect than is gained and eventually be scrapped, or so I hope.

Welease · 01-08-2011 06:00PM

The Taxpayer wrote: »

You pay road tax for using the roads and as others have said we'll get nothing we don't already have for paying property tax. If enough people choose not to pay it will end up costing more to collect than is gained and eventually be scrapped, or so I hope.

Not true... Road Tax is not ring fenced for highway expenditure, and you can use roads on bikes, foot etc without paying a cent in road tax..

As many have said before... it's a tax.. a tax because we are broke.. Nothing more nothing less..

two wheels good · 01-08-2011 06:40PM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The best property tax is simple: tax the value of the land the property is on, excluding the value of the actual building.

This encourages people to develop high value land, rather than leave it derelict, and discourages speculative zoning by county councillors. It also avoids punishing people for owning lots of low value rural land, or those with small plots who have made the most of them.

Additionally
- it discourages corporations e.g. supermarkets establishing "land banks" of unused land. Often used only to thwart their competition from getting hold of the land.
- it doesn't penalise pensioners who might be living in a large house following the family leaving the nest.
- doesn't discourage extensions to existing properties and doesn't require subsequent revaluations.

Ireland is going to need a land\property register to record property transactions so that accurate and transparent data is available.

How property tax should be charged?

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