Gay Marriage vs Civil Partnership

mehfesto · 01-10-2011 08:53PM #1

Hello all,

I'm just wondering something and I hope you can help!

What's the difference between gay marriage, or indeed marriage and civil partnership? I've seemed to upset a former lecturer on facebook when I said that I thought gay marriage was impossible.

Before you beat me with a stick, I was talking linguistically! I always thought 'marriage' was a religious term. Now I'm sure I can be wrong, but I was - and still am, just assuming that it was what I thought it to be. So I'm open to correction. I just thought it was a term, like 'kosher' or such, you know, essentially meaningless outside it's religious constraints.

(In case anyone was wondering why, I guess I based this on a history lesson years ago, when I was told religious marriage was banned in Germany, but Civil Unions were allowed! i.e. religion=marriage, state=c.u.)

It was stated that there are MASSIVE differences between marriage and civil partnership. I don't know where to start looking for the differences to be honest, so if someone could point me towards them, that'd be great.

Is Civil Partnership a massive step down from the rights that heterosexual couples are granted so freely?

Annasopra · 01-10-2011 08:58PM

mehfesto wrote: »

It was stated that there are MASSIVE differences between marriage and civil partnership. I don't know where to start looking for the differences to be honest, so if someone could point me towards them, that'd be great.

Is Civil Partnership a massive step down from the rights that heterosexual couples are granted so freely?

Marriage Equality are launching a report showing the differences next Tuesday

'Missing Pieces', the marriage audit report (highlighting over 160 differences between civil partnership and marriage)

http://www.marriagequality.ie/

Killer Pigeon · 01-10-2011 09:49PM

Hmmm, if marriage is a religious thing, wouldn't that imply that atheists/agnostics couldn't get married?

gcgirl · 01-10-2011 10:15PM

There's civil marriage and there is church blessed marriage, civil unions are not the same, it's a watered down version to try and satisfied the LGBT groups

Annasopra · 01-10-2011 10:31PM

gcgirl wrote: »

There's civil marriage and there is church blessed marriage, civil unions are not the same, it's a watered down version to try and satisfied the LGBT groups

The problem is that there is no general consensus on this internationally as well so you have some countries such as the UK where civil partnership and marriage are virtually alike and then France where marriage and the PACS law are very different. Dr Kees Waldijk calls them semi marriage and quasi marriage and he has done studies showing that in some countries marriage and cp are 90% equal whereas in others they might be 60% equal -

Aard · 01-10-2011 11:19PM

"Civil Marriage" is regular marriage, just without the church ceremony. That's what gay-rights groups generally campaign for. AFAIK nobody is asking for gays to be allowed have the church shindig. That's up to the venue (i.e. church/synagogue/temple/...) 'owners' to decide. Like, the Church of Sweden is cool with two dudes up on the alter, but Rome isn't. Civil Marriage already exists in Ireland -- a lot of people nowadays just have a registry marriage. The only problem is that it's reserved for a man and woman only.

Then into the mix you have the whole "Civil Partnership" or "Civil Union" thing. Unfortunately these terms sound like they're super-duper awesome. But they're pretty hollow, generally. The only universal feature of these is that they in some way bestow fewer rights than Civil Marriage. As mentioned above, the French Pacs is virtually nothing. It's a tax/welfare thing mostly. But then you have the Danish "Registered Partnership" which, though it sounds dry, is actually quite extensive.

To sum up:
- Anything with "Civil" in it means that the church is not involved, and
- Anything with "Partnership" / "Union" in it means "Marriage Lite".

foggy_lad · 02-10-2011 12:17AM

Dont forget "Common law" Marriages/partnerships where the deal is only sealed by both parties living together as husband and wife or partners.

lottpaul · 02-10-2011 07:47AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Dont forget "Common law" Marriages/partnerships where the deal is only sealed by both parties living together as husband and wife or partners.

AFAIK in Ireland there is no recognition of common law marriage situations, that is, a union without a civil or religious ceremony.
Therefore the concept of a ‘common law spouse’ does not exist here, hence the need for the various pieces of legislation regarding the family home, inheritance after a period of cohabitation etc. Even in countries where some form of common law marriage is recognised there are no uniform benefits or conditions attached to it and it is frequently amended by legislation or court rulings.

mehfesto · 02-10-2011 07:51AM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Hmmm, if marriage is a religious thing, wouldn't that imply that atheists/agnostics couldn't get married?

As an atheist myself, I thought this too!
But there's some good info here so far - cheers people! Think I'm understanding it far more now

Conor30 · 02-10-2011 09:32PM

Marriage should be gender neutral, so that it's open to whatever genders. This is what has been done in some countries, such as Norway. Ireland will probably allow gay marriage when we're the last country in Europe, bar Ukraine and Belarus, to do so! lol

L.Jenkins · 03-10-2011 09:49AM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Hmmm, if marriage is a religious thing, wouldn't that imply that atheists/agnostics couldn't get married?

No that just makes us hypocritical.

TylerIE · 03-10-2011 08:10PM

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

No that just makes us hypocritical.

Not really... If marriage truly was a Religious thing, as many Religious groups claim, they would not allow athiests/ agnostics/ non Church-goers get married.

However the only thing thats 100% Religious about it is how its "A la Carte" religious - both in terms of how the Religious groups "police" it and how the public avail of the white dress church wedding - despite it being the first and last time they ever enter a church since they were kids, and despite often making false declarations to the relevant church stating that they had not lived together pre-marriage.

If The Religious argument were to hold any water, it would be strictly enforced that only practicing Christians, who attend service as prescribed and follow all rules faithfully, get married. Instead its ANYBODY, except all gays and some divorcees, who can get marrie.d

TylerIE · 03-10-2011 09:33PM

mehfesto wrote: »

Hello all,

I'm just wondering something and I hope you can help!

What's the difference between gay marriage, or indeed marriage and civil partnership? I've seemed to upset a former lecturer on facebook when I said that I thought gay marriage was impossible.

Before you beat me with a stick, I was talking linguistically! I always thought 'marriage' was a religious term. Now I'm sure I can be wrong, but I was - and still am, just assuming that it was what I thought it to be. So I'm open to correction. I just thought it was a term, like 'kosher' or such, you know, essentially meaningless outside it's religious constraints.

(In case anyone was wondering why, I guess I based this on a history lesson years ago, when I was told religious marriage was banned in Germany, but Civil Unions were allowed! i.e. religion=marriage, state=c.u.)

It was stated that there are MASSIVE differences between marriage and civil partnership. I don't know where to start looking for the differences to be honest, so if someone could point me towards them, that'd be great.

Is Civil Partnership a massive step down from the rights that heterosexual couples are granted so freely?

Hi,

Thank you for taking an interest in educating yourself on the differences.

One of my pet peeves is how often people assume Civil Partnership is the same as Civil Marriage, and even when corrected they disregard the differences as inconsequential. So in a way your right, gay marriage is impossible in Ireland - but only in legal terms.

There are many differences between Civil Partnership and Civil Marriage, both "soft" and "hard". The "hard" differences are in terms of legal rights and responsibilities. The principal ones would be with regard to Children. The Civil Partnership bill in Ireland totally ignores children, as though they dont exist. It doesnt afford children of LGBT couples any protections, nor does it facilitate the foundations of LGBT families involving children.

The big "soft" difference is that "Civil Partnership" is not called Marriage. Indeed that is a big complaint across the US where many states have Civil Partnership that is equal to marriage in all but name. It requires a whole new language. If you decide to have a Civil Partnership are you engaged? If you say "yes" then your forgetting your second class treatment. If you say "No" your not recognizing the major commitment you and your partner are making to each other. When you do get CP'd (Civilly partnered, save me typing) which box do you tick in forms for bank, health insurance, work, etc? If your in certain occupations your obliged to disclose your spouse - where does this put teachers? They dont have the full rights of marriage, yet open themselves up to dismissal for being gay? What text do they use to refer to partners siblings and partners parents? "In laws" or not? What happens when they visit their partner in hospital? or are asked by Healthcare professionals what their status is? The healthcare professional has to go and check the legal rights of "Civil Partner"... That all sounds trivial - but its a constant reminder of the "second class" status of CP.

All legal "hetrosexual" solemnization of relationships in Ireland is Marriage. Some people call registry office weddings "Civil Partnerships" - but they are not the same.

Lesbians or Gay men get the "marriage lite" version of Marriage. "Straight" men or women are excluded from the "marriage lite" version.

Marriage predates Christianity. Its not all about man woman and child. Many straight couples dont have Children. Many gay or lesbian couples do. The exact history of Marriage was explored in the US Proposition 8 Trial. If you have about 60 hours to learn about this, you can do so by watching the trial re-enactment here.

Annasopra · 04-10-2011 08:37PM

http://www.marriagequality.ie/getinformed/justlove/missingpieces.html

Aard · 04-10-2011 11:38PM

The people in Marriage Equality are incredible. Listing this absence of rights is definitely the right way to go -- a much needed counterbalance to the more 'visible' means of attempting to achieve acceptance from the general public.

easychair · 07-10-2011 11:10AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Dont forget "Common law" Marriages/partnerships where the deal is only sealed by both parties living together as husband and wife or partners.

I'd advise you do forget the concept of common law marriage, as it implies such arrangements have a legal standing. There is no provision in Ireland for common law marriage, and the term is not recognised legally, and the courts afford no protection to anyone who considers themselves a common law partner.

easychair · 07-10-2011 11:15AM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Hmmm, if marriage is a religious thing, wouldn't that imply that atheists/agnostics couldn't get married?

Marriage is not solely a religious concept.

If you get "married" in a church, you usually undergo two ceremonies. One religious, and one legal.

You get married once in the eyes of the church, and secondly in the eyes of the state,

If you get married in a registry office, you are only undergoing the legal process.

Consequently, anyone who gets married in a registry office is legally married, but they have also not made any religious promises.

Conor30 · 07-10-2011 06:33PM

mehfesto wrote: »

Hello all,

I'm just wondering something and I hope you can help!

What's the difference between gay marriage, or indeed marriage and civil partnership? I've seemed to upset a former lecturer on facebook when I said that I thought gay marriage was impossible.

Before you beat me with a stick, I was talking linguistically! I always thought 'marriage' was a religious term. Now I'm sure I can be wrong, but I was - and still am, just assuming that it was what I thought it to be. So I'm open to correction. I just thought it was a term, like 'kosher' or such, you know, essentially meaningless outside it's religious constraints.

(In case anyone was wondering why, I guess I based this on a history lesson years ago, when I was told religious marriage was banned in Germany, but Civil Unions were allowed! i.e. religion=marriage, state=c.u.)

It was stated that there are MASSIVE differences between marriage and civil partnership. I don't know where to start looking for the differences to be honest, so if someone could point me towards them, that'd be great.

Is Civil Partnership a massive step down from the rights that heterosexual couples are granted so freely?

There are around 160 differences between the two, apparently. Anything less than marriage simply isn't equality anyway.

Conor30 · 07-10-2011 06:36PM

easychair wrote: »

Marriage is not solely a religious concept.

If you get "married" in a church, you usually undergo two ceremonies. One religious, and one legal.

You get married once in the eyes of the church, and secondly in the eyes of the state,

If you get married in a registry office, you are only undergoing the legal process.

Consequently, anyone who gets married in a registry office is legally married, but they have also not made any religious promises.

Well said. I'm also astonished at the amount of people in Ireland who labour under the misconception that marriage is necessarily and solely a religious thing. Maybe they've never been to France.

Sleepy · 07-10-2011 09:59PM

I'd rather ban religion than gender-neutral marriage.

easychair · 08-10-2011 07:55AM

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd rather ban religion than gender-neutral marriage.

China and the old Soviet Union tried to ban religion, but both found it very difficult to ban an idea.

I've never heard the term "gender-neutral" marriage. Actually, I've never heard of a neutral gender either.

In the USA there is a separation of church and state, and religion is also not allowed to be taught in schools. Those who wrote the American constitution made a better fist of it regarding religion than did those who wrote the Irish constitution, as the interweaving of church and state in Ireland has been at the root of many of the problems which have afflicted Ireland over the years.

hhgooner · 22-01-2013 06:15PM

Hi I am looking at the amount times marriage is mentioned I looked up the Oxford definition of the word marriage and it states "the formal union of a man and a woman typically a recognised by law by which they become man and wife" it seems to me that the word dose not apply to civil partnership due to the english definition of the word. I am all for the recognition of equal rights regardless of any difference. Am I being too literal?

Aard · 22-01-2013 09:43PM

There's a few definitions floating about. Dictionary definition. Legal definition. Religious definition.

The legal definition is the only one "we" (teh gays) care about. But some people will happily conflate different definitions in an attempt to muddy waters.

Peregrinus · 23-01-2013 03:02AM

Dictionary definitions are not terribly helpful here. Mostly, dictionaries don’t attempt to dictate what a word ought to mean, if “properly” used; they tell you what a word does mean, given how it is in fact used. And this can change over time - and frequently does.

Until pretty recently, the term “marriage” was, in practice, only used for opposite-sex relationships, so that’s how any dictionary would have defined it. But the usage of the word is changing, albeit still slowly and inconsistently, and the dictionaries will, in time, change to reflect this. The online Oxford English Dictionary defines marriage as “the condition of being a husband or wife; the relation between persons married to each other; matrimony”, but a note has been added to say that “the term is now sometimes used with reference to long-term relationships between partners of the same sex”. At some point the primary definition will be changed to a gender-neutral one, and this note dropped, or altered to show that in times past the word only referred to opposite-sex unions. A similar development will occur in other dicationaries.

The development of the gender-neutral sense of the word is probably going to be slowed by the creation of a separate legal status like “civil union” or “civil partnership”. But I think the trend towards full marriage equality is unstoppable, and I’m pretty sure the understood meaning of the word will follow along.

Gay Marriage vs Civil Partnership

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