Lexus Chase - Leopardstown (28/12/11)

mdwexford · 28-12-2011 06:54PM

Worst race ever, some bums.

Huntey · 28-12-2011 07:18PM

only1stevo wrote: »

didnt stay as well as Russell and Lynch said he would.

What makes you think that? He stayed alright he just wasn't good enough. His ideal trip is probably 2m 4f but that doesn't mean he didn't stay 3 miles.

There was so many pigs in that race that it is actually a little embarrassing for it to be considered a Grade 1.

Colonel Sanders · 28-12-2011 09:34PM

Huntey wrote: »

There was so many pigs in that race that it is actually a little embarrassing for it to be considered a Grade 1.

Happens time and time again in these Grade 1 3m chases in Ireland

Huntey · 28-12-2011 09:38PM

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Happens time and time again in these Grade 1 3m chases in Ireland

Unfortunately true, if Denman had made it he would have had time to stop for a piss and still win by 20 lengths.

UrbanSea · 28-12-2011 10:02PM

Not too sure about that Huntey, depends what he's like now.

Huntey · 28-12-2011 11:07PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Not too sure about that Huntey, depends what he's like now.

I don't think Denman would have deteriorated to such an extent since his Gold Cup run that he wouldn't have been able to hammer these ponies.

A half wound up Denman would have smashed this field and to suggest otherwise is quite insulting to the horse. As I said earlier I don't think there was anything better than a low 160 in that field.

UrbanSea · 29-12-2011 12:19AM

That is very true,but a Denman who ran in the Bowl last year or the Punchestown festival the year before would not have.

That was after two hard runs at Chelt though. Would have been great to see him

UrbanSea · 29-12-2011 12:20AM

The novice race was 3 seconds quicker. Not exactly complimentary to the runners in the Lexus

TheMilkyPirate · 29-12-2011 12:23AM

UrbanSea wrote: »

That is very true,but a Denman who ran in the Bowl last year or the Punchestown festival the year before would not have.

That was after two hard runs at Chelt though. Would have been great to see him

Exactly and he should have never ran in them in the first place. Denman anywhere near last years gold cup form would have won this doing handstands.

dave3004 · 29-12-2011 12:35AM

Denman is the only proper decent horse to win the Lexus last 5 years or so.

Pandorama / What A Friend / The Listener etc……. All get cut for GC in Chelts and I'm not sure but doubt any of them placed.

Same for Synchronised. Won't place in the GC.

RichieLawlor · 29-12-2011 03:34PM

Pandorama was a proper horse. The owner forcing Meade to run him in the gold cup on unsuitable ground ruined the horse. What a clown.

UrbanSea · 29-12-2011 04:00PM

Very true Richie. Needs heavy, it was stupid to go to Cheltenham

What makes you say it ruined him though,is he injured?

UrbanSea · 29-12-2011 04:01PM

Aw I see now.

How down right silly.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/racing/2011/1121/pandorama.html

mdwexford · 29-12-2011 04:25PM

Greedy owners thinking they know best.

Harry Angstrom · 29-12-2011 07:15PM

Just like the owners of Sizing Europe thinking they can turn him into a 3-mile chaser.

Nulty · 29-12-2011 07:35PM

I want to balance this argument over the owners. Pandoramas owners was down-right stupid to insist on his horse being run against the trainers wishes but I reckon it was a mistake that can be forgiven. The owner surely wouldn't have wanted the horse to be injured. I don't know what the owner would say if he was given the option of Pandorama winning the Gold Cup and dieing after the line, but if he had to think about it I would say he is a sick and greedy man. On the other hand its his horse who he pays plenty of money to keep and ideally the horse would be pulled up if something seemed amiss and before damage was done but of course we know thats irresponsible. Hopefully the owner has learned his lesson. I should know having taken Pandorama at fancy prices on a NRNB basis assuming he wouldn't run on faster ground and hoped he would be taken out when the rain didn't come.

With Sizing Europe, the owners are fully entitled to do what they want tripwise with the horse. I cannot have you comparing what Pandoramas owner decided to do with what the Potts' tried with Sizing. For one, De Bromhead is still not totally convinced he doesn't get the trip. It could be dangerous for a horse jumping the last having run farther than his body will allow but thats horse racing isn't it? Risk-reward ratio.

hucklebuck · 29-12-2011 09:50PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Not too sure about that Huntey, depends what he's like now.

Given he finished ahead of Kauto in March and loves left handed undulating tracks he would have won on the bridle.

Sick as a pig there yesterday, thought time after time after time about the sudden rerouting of Synchronised and then just thought, he is a ****ebox and lumped on Rubi :mad:

Harry Angstrom · 30-12-2011 12:15AM

Nulty wrote: »

With Sizing Europe, the owners are fully entitled to do what they want tripwise with the horse. I cannot have you comparing what Pandoramas owner decided to do with what the Potts' tried with Sizing. For one, De Bromhead is still not totally convinced he doesn't get the trip. It could be dangerous for a horse jumping the last having run farther than his body will allow but thats horse racing isn't it? Risk-reward ratio.

I can understand the connections of Sizing Europe wanting to find out if he stays 3 miles, but it was pretty obvious after 2 outings over the trip last season that he certainly didn't improve for the step-up to that distance. I couldn't believe it when they ran him in the James Nicholson again this season after it was patently obvious that he's a top-class 2 mile chaser following his brilliant win in last year's Champion Chase. In my opinion it was an unneccessarily hard race to give him - he was out on his feet after jumping the last.
Horses (and people) should stick to what they're good at - Sizing Europe is the best 2 mile chaser around, and he should stick to that distance. Look at Big Buck's. His owner realised from a while back that he has one of the greatest staying hurdlers of all time, yet some muppets still ask Nicholls if he's ever going to send him chasing again. :rolleyes:

RichieLawlor · 30-12-2011 04:30AM

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Look at Big Buck's. His owner realised from a while back that he has one of the greatest staying hurdlers of all time, yet some muppets still ask Nicholls if he's ever going to send him chasing again. :rolleyes:

If Big Bucks was mine he would be schooling over fences every minute of every day from now till march and he would be running in the Gold Cup, best animal around and nothing left to prove over timber so why not have a crack.

UrbanSea · 30-12-2011 02:52PM

I'm not so sure Richard. He's already had his go over fences and isn't the same. He has improved since, but if it isn't broke don't fix it

hucklebuck · 30-12-2011 05:23PM

If he were mine I would school him over fences and try him in a lower graded race to see how he does.

Sure jaysus Air Force One won again the other day, why can't Big Buck!

Juwwi · 30-12-2011 05:31PM

If he were mine I'd run him in the 2m4f race at Aintree against Hurricane Fly.

He has nothing to prove by going for the stayers race at Aintree.

Ruby has said on many occasions the has lots of pace.
Even a crack at the champion hurdle.
He has nothing to prove moping up these staying races now.
Years ago the only horses who ran in the stayers hurdle were the ones who were'nt fast enough for the champion hurdle.

Im sure they have scholled him over fences at home since he last ran over fences and probably just cant jump.

Huntey · 30-12-2011 05:47PM

If Big Bucks was put over fences again it is akin to what Potts and De Bromhead are doing with Sizing Europe.

He had his spin over fences and didn't take to it well, no harm done just send him back to what he is good at. Persisting with it may well sour the horse and is putting needless expectations on the greatest staying hurdler ever.

Morgans · 30-12-2011 06:38PM

Putting him over fences is completely misguided. He struggles over them. If he wanted a new challenge, go for the Champion Hurdle. Take Hurricane Fly out of the reckoning and he would be close to favourite.

mdwexford · 30-12-2011 07:08PM

Dont agree he didnt take to fences at all.

Won the G2 Mildmay novice at Aintree and was probably going to win the Hennessy but for unseating and all as a 5yo.

With more experience and knowing what we know now he may well have gone on to win a Gold Cup.

At this stage I agree its too late to go back over fences but id certainly have a crack at the Aintree hurdle.

Morgans · 30-12-2011 07:19PM

even when winning at Aintree, he jumped ugly. Didnt like fences. And he was third (about 4l down) when unseating in the Hennessey. Sure he had promise and was unexposed, would be very interested to see what mark the handicapper would give him, but going back over hurdles was the best decision they ever made. If he were to go back chasing and fall connections would only have themselves to blame. He would have to beating Kauto Star clearly schooling at home for me to even beginning thinking about it.

Hulk Hands · 31-12-2011 05:28PM

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Just like the owners of Sizing Europe thinking they can turn him into a 3-mile chaser.

And what was wrong with that? In the jw wine race at down royal last year he was only beaten a few lengths by the great Kauto Star. This year he was the best horse in the race by a mile and just didn't see it out on bog heavy ground. The King George trip, 3 miles on decent ground on a sharp track would be perfect for him. He probably wouldn't stay a Gold Cup trip but he would have been very competitive in a King George. He could then revert back to 2m to defend his crown at Cheltenham. It annoys me that this was probably the plan but the criticism got to the owners and they backed out. For some reason people seem to think that horses are completely unversatile and should just stick to what they're proven at. If everyone thought like that we'd have never seen Kauto winning King George and Gold cups

mdwexford · 02-01-2012 02:23AM

Hulk Hands wrote: »

And what was wrong with that? In the jw wine race at down royal last year he was only beaten a few lengths by the great Kauto Star. This year he was the best horse in the race by a mile and just didn't see it out on bog heavy ground. The King George trip, 3 miles on decent ground on a sharp track would be perfect for him. He probably wouldn't stay a Gold Cup trip but he would have been very competitive in a King George. He could then revert back to 2m to defend his crown at Cheltenham. It annoys me that this was probably the plan but the criticism got to the owners and they backed out. For some reason people seem to think that horses are completely unversatile and should just stick to what they're proven at. If everyone thought like that we'd have never seen Kauto winning King George and Gold cups

Hes a two miler, anything else is stupid.

Kauto wasnt going up and down in trip like a yoyo.

Hulk Hands · 02-01-2012 09:43AM

mdwexford wrote: »

Hes a two miler, anything else is stupid.

Kauto wasnt going up and down in trip like a yoyo.

It's been said often that you need a horse to stay 2 1/2 miles to win the QM or the Arkle at the festival, such is the pace they go at etc. Thats why you've had Arkle winners and runners up such My Way De Solzen, Tidal Bay, Somesby, Captain Chris and Monets Garden, none of whom you'd regard as specialist 2 milers. With the exception of Big Zeb, every Queen Mother winner for the last 10 years has either won or ran well at a high level over 2 1/2+.

SE has shown he can win over 2 1/2 and would have won comfortably there at Down Royal had the race been run on decent ground. He has the cream of last years 3m novices (poor bunch imo) off the bridle and struggling from about 4 out, and only emptied after the last in bog heavy ground. He's obviously a versatile sort and there's no reason why he couldn't have ran in the King George in between stints at the Tingle Creek and QM. I'd go as far as saying that SE's best trip at the majority of tracks would be 2 1/2, seeing as he has been outpaced at Punchestown over 2m 2 years in a row.

Your other point is a load of tosh. In Kauto's first year as a 3 miler, he started off over 2m 3f. He then won the Betfair chase, before dropping back to 2m for the tingle creek. He went back up in trip for the Aon before winning the Gold Cup. That was his most successful year by far, winning the most prize money, with the added bonus of the Betfair million. He also ran over 2m 5f at Ascot prior to his Gold Cup defeat to Denman. Up and down in trip like a yo-yo. The only reason Nicholls stopped this practice was because he thought Kauto ran better fresh, hence limiting his runs to 4 a year in the big races (betfair, KG, GC). Even the great Arkle ran over all sorts of distances over the course of a season

Morgans · 02-01-2012 10:02AM

At the very least wait until Sizing Europe fails to win his main target before slating connections. They just cant win. If its Hen Knight, Paul Nicholls or Philip Hobbs its logical, if its Henry de Bromhead or Alan Potts then its idiotic. If the attempt to get the horse to stay 3m stopped him from winning the QM, Arkle or the Tingle Creek then connections have a question to answer, until then, it is them who are right, and the critics who are wrong. Some people want Nicholls to send Big Bucks chasing, but get all judgemental at de Bromhead. Makes no sense.

Hulk Hands · 02-01-2012 10:05AM

Morgans wrote: »

At the very least wait until Sizing Europe fails to win his main target before slating connections. They just cant win. If its Hen Knight, Paul Nicholls or Philip Hobbs its logical, if its Henry de Bromhead or Alan Potts then its idiotic. If the attempt to get the horse to stay 3m stopped him from winning the QM, Arkle or the Tingle Creek then connections have a question to answer, until then, it is them who are right, and the critics who are wrong. Some people want Nicholls to send Big Bucks chasing, but get all judgemental at de Bromhead. Makes no sense.

Yup, and it certainly did him no harm last season

Harry Angstrom · 02-01-2012 01:18PM

The fact remains that Sizing Europe has tackled 3 miles on 3 different occasions now, and has yet to register a win. As I said, I don't blame connections for wanting to try him out over that distance but the evidence doesn't seem to suggest he's any better for it. I also stand by my opinion that it was just plain idiotic to run the horse in hock deep ground over 3 miles at Down Royal in the middle of November - completely unnecessary and probably scuppered any plans they had for the King George. I agree that Sizing Europe would be a very interesting contender in a race like the King George but giving him a prep at Down Royal on that sort of ground was ridiculous. I doubt that Nicholls or Hen Knight would have done that. A lot of top quality 2 mile chasers can get 2 1/2 miles quite easily, but not a lot of them get 3 miles.

Morgans · 02-01-2012 01:24PM

Now sure how it scuppered any plans for the King George.

He won the Tingle Creek a month later.

Juwwi · 02-01-2012 01:38PM

I think at the start of last season connections taught that SE was'nt quick enough to win a champion chase and thats possibly part of the reason for trying longer trips.

Before cheltenham in march he was being beaten fair and square by Golden Silver and was 10/1sp on the day to win the champion chase.

Sure even up to a week or two before cheltenham peopleon here and in the papers were slating DeBromhead for not running him in the Ryanair because people were saying he'd have no chance in the champion chase.

Now all of a sudden DeBromhead was crazy running him over longer trips.

Harry Angstrom · 02-01-2012 01:39PM

Morgans wrote: »

Now sure how it scuppered any plans for the King George.

Well, after he ran in that bog up in the North, DeBromhead said he wouldn't be heading to Kempton.....

mdwexford · 02-01-2012 02:03PM

Hulk Hands wrote: »

It's been said often that you need a horse to stay 2 1/2 miles to win the QM or the Arkle at the festival, such is the pace they go at etc. Thats why you've had Arkle winners and runners up such My Way De Solzen, Tidal Bay, Somesby, Captain Chris and Monets Garden, none of whom you'd regard as specialist 2 milers. With the exception of Big Zeb, every Queen Mother winner for the last 10 years has either won or ran well at a high level over 2 1/2+.

SE has shown he can win over 2 1/2 and would have won comfortably there at Down Royal had the race been run on decent ground. He has the cream of last years 3m novices (poor bunch imo) off the bridle and struggling from about 4 out, and only emptied after the last in bog heavy ground. He's obviously a versatile sort and there's no reason why he couldn't have ran in the King George in between stints at the Tingle Creek and QM. I'd go as far as saying that SE's best trip at the majority of tracks would be 2 1/2, seeing as he has been outpaced at Punchestown over 2m 2 years in a row.

Your other point is a load of tosh. In Kauto's first year as a 3 miler, he started off over 2m 3f. He then won the Betfair chase, before dropping back to 2m for the tingle creek. He went back up in trip for the Aon before winning the Gold Cup. That was his most successful year by far, winning the most prize money, with the added bonus of the Betfair million. He also ran over 2m 5f at Ascot prior to his Gold Cup defeat to Denman. Up and down in trip like a yo-yo. The only reason Nicholls stopped this practice was because he thought Kauto ran better fresh, hence limiting his runs to 4 a year in the big races (betfair, KG, GC). Even the great Arkle ran over all sorts of distances over the course of a season

Lots of placed plodders in the Arkle means nothing here.

Sizing Europe should have been campaigned solely over two miles last year instead of messing about over three. He'd won the Arkle, why not give him a full year over two and if it doesnt go to plan then think about stepping him up. They almost wasted all of last season untill he came good at Cheltenham.

I think going up to three inbetween two mile championship races blunts horses speed and can affect their jumping.

That was just because Kauto is the greatest of all time and can do anything. 2m3f was just a starting point. The Tingle Creek wasnt the original plan but then a Nicholls horse got injured or something if i remember correctly so they decided to go for it.

Times have changed since Arkles days, if you campaigned horses like that these days they'd drop dead.

Morgans · 02-01-2012 02:10PM

mdwexford wrote: »

I think going up to three inbetween two miles championship races blunts horses speed and cant affect their jumping.

I agree with this. I think Nicholls ruined Le Roi Migeul trying to get him to stay but it hasn't affected Sizing Europe thusfar. Running in Down Royal didnt stop him from winning the Tingle Creek. Maybe de Bromhead actually knows what he was doing. What has Sizing Europe missed out on due to his campaign - one Tingle Creek?

Lexus Chase - Leopardstown (28/12/11)

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