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N2 - Slane Bypass [planning decision pending]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,236 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    monument wrote: »
    Motor tax has no link to the building or upkeep of roads, and it clearly has no link to the use of roads. Road tax was abolished a long time ago.
    That's all true except for one part (but maybe I'm just not understanding your phrasing), and I was expressing my opinion that it's very unfair to oblige people to use a toll road where no even theoretically reasonable and free alternative is available. The part where I disagree with you is that motor tax is linked to the use of roads, in that if you do not use a motor vehicle for a period of time, e.g. a year then it no longer has to pay motor tax upon notification of the local authority. To be allowed to use a public road, a motor vehicle must have been taxed annually as well as pay VRT.
    Broached the topic in detail without having fairly basic details needed (ie the traffic study to show where HGVs are coming to and from).
    I maintain that a study was not needed to make all the conclusions the Inspector made. Common sense is enough to show that there is some clear prospect to CRH's quarry for either the bypass option or HGV ban option or both. I agree in principle though, a destination/origin traffic survey should have been carried out.


    You are the one who had a problem with what he said (so did Slane Resident, but anyway). I was just explaining that he had said that it hand not been considered, and as I had only quoted him saying that, I then tried to explain that what he fairly clear means is that it has not been considered fully.

    You have already correctly pointed out that it was somewhat or partly considered, so I'm not sure how you can take the inspector's words that it was not considered to literary mean it was not considered. What he means it was not considered fully -- that's the way ABP work, they don't like people half arsed looking at alternatives just because the NRA or whoever isn't interested in the alternatives.

    But basically you want it every way here. When I quote the inspector's words literary without expanding you get annoyed, and you also get annoyed when I add context.
    Point taken, fair enough. Though I wouldn't exactly describe my posts as "getting annoyed":)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    tuathal wrote: »
    That is completely false.

    The proposed bypass will intrude upon the World Heritage Site, directly. It will be visible, audible, and entail demolishing a number of archaeological sites that are related to Newgrange. In addition, it will detract greatly from the amenity value of the site and its setting, which is also protected in law. It will sever the World Heritage Site from the village.

    That is why some of Ireland's leading archaeologists, like Professor George Eogan, think it could even result in the loss of World Heritage status.

    But not only Ireland's leading archaeologists, but one of Ireland's leading transport experts, Dr Edward Morgenroth of the ESRI, has condemned this project as an "idiotic" waste of taxpayers money, when there is a much more logical and efficient solution to stopping all the HGVs passing through the village every day, avoiding the M1 toll. Implement the HGV ban that the Meath County Councillors voted for in 2009. If the HGVs are gone, there is no need for this bypass.

    The NRA agreed with Morgenroth and cancelled the bypass in late April 2009, but then changed their mind, after a visit by Brian Cowen to Slane. Something very fishy going on planning-wise in Meath.

    With 7 billion in cuts on the horizon, it is insance to keep building 'gold-plated' infrastructure like this. Look at the M3, with traffic 25% under target, and direct payments being made by the taxpayer to the tolling company, for another newroad that wasn't needed, when the old one could have been upgraded, and not tolled at all.

    The Celtic Tiger is over...and sites like Newgrange are the only real thing that will keep money flowing into this country. Leave them alone...

    I've dug up this post from a while back - I really find it interesting especially with the ABP inspector's report in mind. This whole thing about Brian Cowen and FF has also turned out to be complete nonsense - FG and Lab also gave their backing for the bypass - in fact, Leo Varadkar was said to have had money aside for land purchase if the bypass got the green light - it seems he wanted it to be shovel ready for 2016 onwards. Of course, the bypass had the backing of the local people in general - kind of important in what is supposed to be a democracy I would have guessed!

    Must go now!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Despite the recent reclassification of some National Routes around the country, the N2 through Slane remains the N2 National Primary Route - this is in the context of the section of N52 from Ardee to Dundalk being totally downgraded (due to the presence of the N33 and M1 I'd imagine) - this does bode well for future prospects regarding the Slane Bypass eventually coming to fruition.

    Regards!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Despite the recent reclassification of some National Routes around the country, the N2 through Slane remains the N2 National Primary Route - this is in the context of the section of N52 from Ardee to Dundalk being totally downgraded (due to the presence of the N33 and M1 I'd imagine) - this does bode well for future prospects regarding the Slane Bypass eventually coming to fruition.

    Regards!
    Doesn't change the fact that the N2 should still be downgraded through here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭tuathal


    According to today's Irish Times, there will be no judicial review of the decision of An Bord Pleanala to deny planning permission for the Slane bypass, and no alternative route proposed by Meath County Council. The Slane bypass has been completely abandoned.

    Instead, the Council and the NRA are looking at introducing a long overdue HGV ban.

    The locals were playing Russian Roullette with the ban, at the bequest of the NRA. Locals had always campaigned for both a HGV ban and a bypass. The NRA couldn't allow the ban to go into place, before planning was granted, because it would have reduced the traffic numbers through the village, and therefore negated the need for the bypass. This is bourne out by the timeline of events.

    ghgvban.jpg

    4 April 2009 – Locals protest for HGV ban in Slane

    On 04 April, 2009, RTE reported that local protests had stopped traffic in the village of Slane:

    Around 70 protestors blocked traffic through Slane this morning to highlight their campaign to have heavy goods vehicles banned from the Co Meath village.

    9 April 2009 – Councillors unanimously vote for HGV ban

    A few days later, on 9 April 2009, Meath County Councillors voted to implement a Heavy Goods Vehicle (HGV) ban in Slane – as reported in the Meath Chronicle story entitled – Slane pile up: Cllrs take first step to ban HGVs.
    The motion to ban HGVs travelling north-south through the village was put to the floor and unanimously passed. Standing orders were suspended at Monday”s council meeting to discuss the issue and a motion put forward by Cllr Ann Dillon Gallagher calling for trucks travelling north-south through the village to be banned received the unanimous support of her fellow councillors.

    9 April 2009 – Minister Dempsey says he will “actively facilitate” HGV ban in Slane

    The Meath Chronicle also reported on 9 April 2009 that Minister Noel Dempsey said that the Department of Transport and National Roads Authority “would actively facilitate a HGV ban in the village“.

    April 2009 – Bypass Slane Campaign Forms

    The Bypass Slane Campaign is led by Fianna Fail Cllr Wayne Harding, who was elected in the June 2009 elections, and Thomas Byrne, TD for Meath. The group had been hurriedly formed in April 2009, a month before the elections, and the address of the group is the Village Inn in Slane, the premises owned and operated by Cllr Harding, who also uses it for his constituency office.


    20 May 2009 – NRA tells councillors no funding for bypass

    The NRA then informed Slane councillors by letter that there was no funding for the bypass in a 20 May 2009 meeting with Slane Electoral Area councillors, which was reported in The Meath Chronicle on 27 May 2009- . Incredulity in Slane as NRA says no funds for bypass:
    In its explanation for a pause in progress on the construction of a bypass – delivered to councillors at the Slane Electoral Area meeting last Wednesday – the NRA said the Government”s national transport infrastructure investment programme, Transport 21, provided the framework for the development of the national road network over the 10-year period from 2006 to 2015. It said that, under the plan, the initial focus of the authority”s programme of works would concentrate on the completion of the five major inter-urban routes linking Dublin to Cork, Waterford, Limerick, Galway and Northern Ireland (via the M1) to motorway/high quality carriageway standard.

    The plan anticipated the completion of these routes in their entirety by the end of 2010. Transport 21 also envisaged significant development of other key national primary roads, including the N2, N3, N4, N5, N21, N22, N24, N25 and N30, the Atlantic Road Corridor from Letterkenny through Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford, as well as a number of national secondary routes which were identified in the plan as being particularly important for regional development, it said. Because of this, and the continued uncertainty regarding public finances, the NRA regretted that ‘it is not possible at this time to provide funding for the construction of the N2 Slane Bypass’.

    The Minutes of the Slane Electoral Area May Monthly Meeting, which took place at the Chamber Duleek Civic Offices on Wednesday 20thMay 2009, states as follows:
    7.0 Correspondence / Issues raised by the Area Manager

    The following items of correspondence were circulated and noted by the Members:

    7.1 Letter from NRA stating in essence that it was not possible to provide funding at this stage for the construction of the N2 Slane Bypass.

    The Members unanimously expressed extreme disappointment with the contents of this letter. Cllr Cudden suggested that that the five area Members contact the area’s TDs and Senator in an effort to progress the delivery of this vital piece of infrastructure.

    The Area Manager advised the Members that they raise this issue at the Full Council meeting to discuss the Slane LAP on the 25th May.


    25 May 2009 – Taoiseach Brian Cowen and Dempsey met Bypass Slane Campaign

    The leader of Fianna Fail, Taoiseach, Brian Cowen was welcomed to Slane on 25 May 2009 by Minister for Transport, Noel Dempsey, and his local Fianna Fail allies, Thomas Byrne TD and Cllr-to-be Wayne Harding. This was part of the Fianna Fail European and local election campaign.

    The Taoiseach came to Slane to support the candidates running in the local elections in Meath and South Louth.


    9 July 2009 – County Manager announces he cannot implement the HGV ban

    On 09 July 2010 The Meath Chronicle reported that the County Manager, Tom Dowling, said he could not implement the ban, for commercial and legal reasons, according to a ‘report’ circulated to councillors, on the implications of the HGV ban:
    The banning of heavy goods vehicles (HGVs) from the streets of Slane could have huge financial consequences for Meath County Council in terms of possible exposure to legal claims, delays to deliveries and business frustration, a council official said this week. The report reaches the conclusion that the banning of HGVs would have national and international implications and, if implemented, could have serious consequences for the council in terms of possible legal exposure, delivery delays and business frustration. ‘

    As it is the general duty of the NRA under the Roads Act to secure the provision of a safe and effective network of national roads, it is considered the responsibility of the NRA to have the above mentioned study carried out in order to ascertain the full impacts that such a ban would have on Slane, the county in general, and settlements and infrastructure in other jurisdictions.

    It should be noted that Meath County Council is fully supportive of a HGV ban in the village and is willing to work with the NRA in the implementation of whatever proposals that emerge from the study.’

    15 July 2009 – NRA announces reversal of Slane bypass decision


    On 15 July 2009 the NRA announced to the Transport Committee that they had changed their mind and wished to proceed with the N2 Slane Bypass, as planned:
    The National Roads Authority believes that Slane should be bypassed on economic, environmental and safety grounds. The planning is well advanced and the compulsory purchase order, CPO, and environmental impact statement, EIS, documentation will be available to submit to An Bord Pleanála by October this year. Subject to Department of Finance approval, CPO and EIS applications will be submitted to An Bord Pleanála as soon as the documentation is ready.

    This was a complete turn-around by the NRA, and there is no doubt that there had been an intervention at Cabinet level, to secure the funding for the bypass.

    On 15 July 2009, Meath County Manager, Tom Dowling also made a presentation to the Oireachtas Committee on Transport, along with the NRA and Bypass Slane campaign, alleging that the HGV ban in Slane would be unworkable:
    A resolution to implement a ban on HGVs travelling north-south through Slane on the N2 was passed by the elected members at the council meeting on 6 April 2009.

    A report was circulated to the full council on 6 July 2009 on the potential implications that such a ban would have and I fully support the elected representatives in their desire to ban HGVs through Slane. However, it would be remiss of me not to draw attention to the fact that whereas the banning of HGVs from Slane will resolve some of the problems associated with the inadequacy of the existing route, it may well create a multiplicity of other problems.

    These will have wide ranging impacts which will extend beyond the borders of County Meath, largely because of the need to give HGV drivers, who would otherwise pass through Slane, sufficient warning so that they can plan alternative routes.

    The banning of HGVs in Slane may have wider implications which could have serious consequences for Meath County Council in terms of possible legal exposure, delivery delays and business frustration. These should not be dismissed lightly and could also apply to other affected local authorities and agencies. Apart from the impact on the local commercial interests, any restriction of HGVs through Slane could bring significant local difficulties for the residents along other roads, villages and towns that diverted vehicles would use to avoid Slane and minimise journey times.

    In addition, the use of these local roads by HGVs could result in the rapid and serious deterioration of the local road infrastructure and increase the risk of accidents. Consequently, it is vital to consider this matter carefully and to ensure that whatever we do will be done in the proper manner.

    Then Fine Gael Spokesperson on Transport, Deputy Fergus O’Dowd, said:
    A resolution has been passed by the county council. As the elected Members have called for it, notwithstanding everything the county manager said, I presume the position is he must effect that policy now.

    The County Manager responded that “Obviously it is a reserved function to pass the resolution and so on, which has been done. While the resolution has been passed, members are aware that one must find a way to implement such a resolution.” Deputy O’Dowd responded:
    However, the law states the local authority must do it. It does not have a choice because the council has passed a resolution and its officials must carry that through.


    8 December 2009 – Dempsey cuts national roads programme – not Slane bypass

    On 8 December 2009, with the financial crisis deepening, the Minister for Transport, Noel Dempsey, announced that there were to be severe cuts to the national roads programme – as reported on 9 December 2009, The Irish Times – Major road plans put on hold due to cutbacks.
    MORE THAN a decade of budget allocations to begin major road schemes is expected to come to a close today, when reductions in annual funding for the National Roads Authority (NRA) are announced by Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan. For the first time since December 1999 the roads authority is not planning to match its budget allocation with early announcements of new road schemes to go to construction within 12 months.

    The N2 Ahsbourne to Ardee, which is to link on both north and south ends of the Slane bypass, was “suspended,” but the bypass itself has miraculously kept its funding.

    15 December 2010 – Public consultation for Slane bypass begins

    The following week, on 15 December 2009, a public notice announcing the selection of the preferred route for the N2 Slane bypass, and the Compulsory Purchase Order for the land along the route, was published in national newspapers.

    At the oral hearing, the Council and the NRA refused to give copies of the study that had been performed, which stated the HGV an was unworkable. However, they were forced to produce it. And it was a joke.

    Now, there is really going to be a proper study done, for the first time, on actually implementing the HGV ban. About bloody time!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There won't be any HGV ban implemented as there isn't a suitable alternative route.

    There'll be a new application put in for the bypass in time - this does not require a judicial review or, indeed, another route.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭tuathal


    MYOB wrote: »
    There won't be any HGV ban implemented as there isn't a suitable alternative route.

    There'll be a new application put in for the bypass in time - this does not require a judicial review or, indeed, another route.

    Thanks for your opinion, and you may well be right about them not implementing a ban, but I find it hard to believe that local residents, and all of Meath County Councillors would have campaigned for, and voted for, something that was impossible.

    We'll see what the new studies say, assuming they are independently performed.

    Otherwise, it will be years before there is a bypass application - and anyone being injured in the village in the meantime will have a good cause of action against the council, for failing to take reasonable measures to protect the health and safety of drivers and pedestrians.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 13,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Tuathal - for some reason, the words strawman and troll come to mind when I read your posts.

    A HGV ban at Slane is unworkable. It has been shown that much of the HGV traffic at Slane is generated locally and therefore cannot be redirected via the M1 bridge at Drogheda.

    IMO the only workable solution is a bypass of Slane.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    A HGV ban at Slane is unworkable. It has been shown that much of the HGV traffic at Slane is generated locally and therefore cannot be redirected via the M1 bridge at Drogheda.
    where "has it been shown" ?

    the investigation into a HGV ban (or even a partial one for long distance toll dodging truckers!) has not been performed - and incidentally this lack of any survey is one of the main reasons that an bord planala rejected the application for the by pass.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    tuathal wrote: »
    Thanks for your opinion, and you may well be right about them not implementing a ban, but I find it hard to believe that local residents, and all of Meath County Councillors would have campaigned for, and voted for, something that was impossible.

    We'll see what the new studies say, assuming they are independently performed.

    Otherwise, it will be years before there is a bypass application - and anyone being injured in the village in the meantime will have a good cause of action against the council, for failing to take reasonable measures to protect the health and safety of drivers and pedestrians.

    I'd counter that anyone injured can look at an inexplicable ABP decision more than anything else.

    Have you realised yet that the reasons it was rejected don't tie, at all, with what you came on here and claimed it was rejected for? E.g. have you actually read the decision yet?


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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 13,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    A HGV ban at Slane is unworkable. It has been shown that much of the HGV traffic at Slane is generated locally and therefore cannot be redirected via the M1 bridge at Drogheda.
    where "has it been shown" ?

    the investigation into a HGV ban (or even a partial one for long distance toll dodging truckers!) has not been performed - and incidentally this lack of any survey is one of the main reasons that an bord planala rejected the application for the by pass.


    I was under the impression that Meath County Council had carried out a traffic survey in and around Slane some years ago.

    The N2 has always had a high proportion of its traffic in the form of HGVs. I'm sure that a substantial amount of HGV traffic using Slane is dodging the M1 toll but if a HGV ban is deemed to be workable then why wasn't it implemented once the M1 Drogheda bypass was opened almost a decade ago?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭tuathal


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Tuathal - for some reason, the words strawman and troll come to mind when I read your posts.

    A HGV ban at Slane is unworkable. It has been shown that much of the HGV traffic at Slane is generated locally and therefore cannot be redirected via the M1 bridge at Drogheda.

    IMO the only workable solution is a bypass of Slane.

    Hi Kid, Making personal attacks really weakens your already weak and unsupported opinions. Insults aren't arguments.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭tuathal


    MYOB wrote: »
    I'd counter that anyone injured can look at an inexplicable ABP decision more than anything else.

    Have you realised yet that the reasons it was rejected don't tie, at all, with what you came on here and claimed it was rejected for? E.g. have you actually read the decision yet?

    Sounds like sour grapes to me. I am afraid your post is very jumbled, and difficult to respond to. First you say it is inexplicable. Then you say you know why it was rejected, and its not the reasons I gave.

    I actually don't recall giving any reasons, other than the ones in the paper - ie because of the importance of the World Heritage Site it is vital that all alternatives be examined, and they weren't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    tuathal wrote: »
    Sounds like sour grapes to me. I am afraid your post is very jumbled, and difficult to respond to. First you say it is inexplicable. Then you say you know why it was rejected, and its not the reasons I gave.

    I actually don't recall giving any reasons, other than the ones in the paper - ie because of the importance of the World Heritage Site it is vital that all alternatives be examined, and they weren't.

    Sounds like denial to me

    Read your posts on the day of the rejection and see how few of them even resemble the reality of the report. You were lording it over, accusing people of being FF (still) and acting as if they'd decided it was running over the top of Newgrange.

    Telling MCC to reconsider - and return showing there are no other routes that are suitable - isn't anywhere close to what you wanted, or what you seemed to believe the result was.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    tuathal wrote: »
    Hi Kid, Making personal attacks really weakens your already weak and unsupported opinions. Insults aren't arguments.

    You may have wanted to think of that before accusing half the forum of being FF patsies. Now you've done that, you've rather used your ammo on that. Take what you give or don't give in the first place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    MYOB wrote: »
    There won't be any HGV ban implemented as there isn't a suitable alternative route.

    There'll be a new application put in for the bypass in time - this does not require a judicial review or, indeed, another route.

    +1

    ...and who is to say that laws or state institutions cannot be changed tuathal? Just because ABP can block infrastructure does not mean that ABP are invincible - just because the law now says that the Slane Bypass cannot now go ahead does not mean that the law itself can't be changed. When a law fails to do justice or fails to serve the people, then there's an increased likelihood of legislative amendment whether it's sooner or later!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Tuathal - for some reason, the words strawman and troll come to mind when I read your posts.

    A HGV ban at Slane is unworkable. It has been shown that much of the HGV traffic at Slane is generated locally and therefore cannot be redirected via the M1 bridge at Drogheda.

    IMO the only workable solution is a bypass of Slane.

    +1

    ...or soap-boxing!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    tuathal wrote: »
    Thanks for your opinion, and you may well be right about them not implementing a ban, but I find it hard to believe that local residents, and all of Meath County Councillors would have campaigned for, and voted for, something that was impossible.

    We'll see what the new studies say, assuming they are independently performed.

    Otherwise, it will be years before there is a bypass application - and anyone being injured in the village in the meantime will have a good cause of action against the council, for failing to take reasonable measures to protect the health and safety of drivers and pedestrians.

    I've this to ask:

    1) Have you looked at a detailed map covering the Boyne Valley from Navan to Drogheda (the OS Discovery Maps #42 & #43 are perfect IMO)? This might shed light on why a HGV ban would be unworkable!

    2) Have you driven on the N2 Southbound through Slane in a car (let alone a HGV) - if so, did you not notice how steep the street was let alone the approach road towards the bridge? Even in a car, it's dangerous!

    3) Are campaigners like you not responsible for anything that might happen in Slane in the medium to long term (the time the bypass might have been operational)?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    tuathal wrote: »
    Sounds like sour grapes to me. I am afraid your post is very jumbled, and difficult to respond to. First you say it is inexplicable. Then you say you know why it was rejected, and its not the reasons I gave.

    I actually don't recall giving any reasons, other than the ones in the paper - ie because of the importance of the World Heritage Site it is vital that all alternatives be examined, and they weren't.

    Have you read all of the ABP Inspector's report??? :confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    MYOB wrote: »
    You may have wanted to think of that before accusing half the forum of being FF patsies. Now you've done that, you've rather used your ammo on that. Take what you give or don't give in the first place.

    +10! :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭tuathal


    To answer a couple of posters, I have read the Inspectors Report, and the Order. I agree they are difficult to digest, and indeed the Inspector does ask the council to come back with a new proposal. But the Inspectors Report is just that, and there have been numerous cases where the Board has acted against the advice of the Inspector. We could go on and on about that, but the reality is that the NRA has no money to make a new proposal, and also interprets the Order as being a block to any future bypass plan for the Slane area.

    That only leaves two alternatives.

    1. Do nothing.

    2. Implement a HGV ban.

    I would like to see them implement the HGV ban. Now, there are a lot of people on here who seem to have it all figured out, and are cock sure that it won't work. But what is the harm in testing it? That is the only way we will know for once and for all if it will work.

    What is wrong with spending a small amount of money on developing the best HGV ban possible, if it has a chance of saving lives?

    If it fails, then the case for the bypass is enhanced, and work should begin on a new route.

    But to say it won't work, when there has been no definitive study, and no attempt to implement a trial version, makes no sense at all. Frankly, it smacks of some other agenda.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭tuathal


    MYOB wrote: »
    Sounds like denial to me

    Read your posts on the day of the rejection and see how few of them even resemble the reality of the report. You were lording it over, accusing people of being FF (still) and acting as if they'd decided it was running over the top of Newgrange.

    Telling MCC to reconsider - and return showing there are no other routes that are suitable - isn't anywhere close to what you wanted, or what you seemed to believe the result was.

    Ah I see what you mean. That is where the Order and the Report diverge. Reading the Inspectors Report, it does appear that the denial of permission is just a small blip in the process, and that MCC can come back with a few more reports, and all will be well.

    The reason I was worked up was the response of the NRA, and their interpretation of the Order, which is a much more extreme position - that only a traffic management solution will be approved.

    The end result goes further than I expected. I did feel that the route was too close to Newgrange, but that another route could be found. I am not anti-bypass, and I am definitely pro-HGV ban.

    I love the village of Slane, and have done ever since I saw the Rolling Stones there in ... 1982 !? I love the heritage at Newgrange, and want it to keep its integrity, and I also abhor the HGVs rolling through the village, the way they do - avoiding the tolls and robbing the taxpayer, on top of endangering lives.

    The fact that so many people refuse to even consider implementing a HGV ban is truly shocking to me, when there is such a dire and immediate threat to human life in Slane.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    tuathal wrote: »
    The fact that so many people refuse to even consider implementing a HGV ban is truly shocking to me, when there is such a dire and immediate threat to human life in Slane.

    Consider it all you want, there is no alternative route. If trucks want to avoid the tolls - and "rob" a private firm as that toll has been run by the PPP that built the Dundalk Bypass since roughly 2005 - they go through Julianstown and Drogheda, not Slane.

    Why you seem to think the result of the "consultation" MCC are undertaking will be anything other than "can't be done, apply again" astounds me.

    If you feel the route is "too close" to Newgrange, maybe you can convince UNESCO to extend their standard boundaries. Its outside it, hence it is not too close.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,290 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Fundamentally the HGV ban wouldn't work because it is based on the false starting point that the big issue in Slane is trucks. It isn't, it's heavy traffic using a dangerous hill and bridge. The ban won't stop car traffic from passing along an unsuitable route.

    Next steps: MCC conduct a study into the ban, it reveals that one would not be possible, the NRA resubmit planning permission for the bypass, permission is granted, bypass is built. Sadly, this will all take so long that it's likely the route could see a few fatalities and many serious injuries in the meantime.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭tuathal


    MYOB wrote: »
    Consider it all you want, there is no alternative route. If trucks want to avoid the tolls - and "rob" a private firm as that toll has been run by the PPP that built the Dundalk Bypass since roughly 2005 - they go through Julianstown and Drogheda, not Slane.

    Why you seem to think the result of the "consultation" MCC are undertaking will be anything other than "can't be done, apply again" astounds me.

    If you feel the route is "too close" to Newgrange, maybe you can convince UNESCO to extend their standard boundaries. Its outside it, hence it is not too close.

    You obviously don't know much about toll roads in Ireland. The State gets a share of the toll revenue. Normally, the contracts aren't published, so we don't know the exact terms of the agreement for the M1, but we do get indications from time to time.

    Last June the Irish Times published an article about the cost of the M3 motorway, due to shadow tolling. It contained the following statement from the NRA:
    The subvention on the M3 for October to December that year cost €547,000. Utilising the revenue from the M1 and M4 for the entire year still left a shortfall of €317,000.

    So, it is clear that there is state income from the M1 toll -and income that is being lost due to the toll being avoided in Slane.

    I agree with you that MCC is unlikely to give a thumbs up to the HGV ban, because the HGV ban will reduce traffic through the village, and undermine the economic argument for the bypass. That is why the study needs to be done independently. It may even require HGV bans in other villages as well, which would not be a bad thing. We paid billions for motorways, so why should secondary roads be bombarded unecessarily, when we don't now even have the money to maintain them?

    I think pressure needs to be put on the Minister to ensure that a proper HGV study is done, and it will be pretty obvious if the MCC study is a whitewash.

    Your view of the UNESCO boundary is simplistic. Yes, there is a case for extending it, and that was already under consideration by a review group, working on the management plan, before the route was published. The case was strenghtened by various discoveries of sites that were related to the main sites.

    In Irish law, the definition of a national monument includes the "setting" of the monument - which extends well beyond the actual property line. That same principle applies here to the World Heritage Site.

    MCC picked an independent heritage consultant, Dr Comer, from the US to evaluate the scheme.

    His opinion was that "no other outcome (other than rejection of planning permission) was possible" on the basis of the application.

    You can cry aout it all you like, but that was the correct decision. This is bourne out by the fact that MCC is not taking judicial review.

    By the way. one not so obvious reason for the denial of planning permission is the concept of "cumulative effects", in the EIA Directive. Objectors argued that the bypass must be seen in the context of other developments in the area - the big one being the M1, which shaves the other side of the World Heritage Site. When that was built, the Site was not even mentioned in the EIS - and An Bord Pleanala gave permission on a flawed application. The Board clearly had egg on their face after that stroke by the NRA and MCC.

    UNESCO came over on a fact finding mission afterwards, were appalled, and gave a damning report. The bypass would have been a step too far, and risked the Site losing its status as a UNESCO site.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭tuathal


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Fundamentally the HGV ban wouldn't work because it is based on the false starting point that the big issue in Slane is trucks. It isn't, it's heavy traffic using a dangerous hill and bridge. The ban won't stop car traffic from passing along an unsuitable route.

    Next steps: MCC conduct a study into the ban, it reveals that one would not be possible, the NRA resubmit planning permission for the bypass, permission is granted, bypass is built. Sadly, this will all take so long that it's likely the route could see a few fatalities and many serious injuries in the meantime.

    1600 HGVs a day pass through Slane. I would have to disagree that banning them won't reduce problems.

    In addition, it has always been envisaged that the HGV ban would work in conjunction with other traffic calming measures.

    Again, if people are so concerned about safety, then why don't they pressure MCC to get a proper study done, and have a HGV ban implemented? That is the only way this argument is going to be resolved, for once and for all.

    Instead, all I am hearing is a lot of moaning about a 'bad' decision, when it is obvious that the NRA and MCC completely screwed this up, and submitted a flawed appliction, costing millions of euros, and wasting years of work.

    The study and ban would cost a tiny fraction of the cost of the bypass. So, why are so many people saying - 'do nothing' instead?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    tuathal wrote: »
    You obviously don't know much about toll roads in Ireland. The State gets a share of the toll revenue. Normally, the contracts aren't published, so we don't know the exact terms of the agreement for the M1, but we do get indications from time to time.

    I know plenty about them. The income the state gets is a tiny fraction. Not enough to justify some hyperbole about "robbing the state". They get more from the VAT. Probably actually make more from the extra fuel duty from the extra fuel the trucks dodging the M1 toll - through Julianstown and Drogheda - use in the process.
    tuathal wrote: »
    I agree with you that MCC is unlikely to give a thumbs up to the HGV ban, because the HGV ban will reduce traffic through the village, and undermine the economic argument for the bypass.

    That's not agreeing with me, thats pretending to agree with me.

    A HGV ban cannot be implemented due to no alternative route - not due to it "undermining" anything.
    tuathal wrote: »
    That is why the study needs to be done independently. It may even require HGV bans in other villages as well, which would not be a bad thing. We paid billions for motorways, so why should secondary roads be bombarded unecessarily, when we don't now even have the money to maintain them?

    A national primary road is not a 'secondary road'

    If a report is done and states that a ban can't be done due to no alternative route, what are you going to pretend the report says then?
    tuathal wrote: »
    Your view of the UNESCO boundary is simplistic. Yes, there is a case for extending it, and that was already under consideration by a review group, working on the management plan, before the route was published. The case was strenghtened by various discoveries of sites that were related to the main sites.

    If the case was strenghtened, why is it not being extended then?
    tuathal wrote: »
    In Irish law, the definition of a national monument includes the "setting" of the monument - which extends well beyond the actual property line. That same principle applies here to the World Heritage Site.

    You've seen the balloon test photos I presume? It impacts not one bit on its "setting". Vehicles using it will be less visible than those on the N2.

    tuathal wrote: »
    You can cry aout it all you like, but that was the correct decision. This is bourne out by the fact that MCC is not taking judicial review.

    Why would you take a judicial review when you can just reapply after showing there's no other suitable routes? You're really trying to invent a strawman here.

    You're the one crying here - because the planning decision didn't agree with any of your claims at all.
    tuathal wrote: »
    UNESCO came over on a fact finding mission afterwards, were appalled, and gave a damning report. The bypass would have been a step too far, and risked the Site losing its status as a UNESCO site.

    "risked" - as in, it wasn't actually going to lose it. Let UNESCO be appalled all the want - the bypass is not in their boundary zone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    tuathal wrote: »
    The study and ban would cost a tiny fraction of the cost of the bypass. So, why are so many people saying - 'do nothing' instead?

    You can't ban HGVs without somewhere for them to go. Why do you avoid dealing with this?

    Due to ABP, money is now going to be wasted on a report saying exactly what we already know - that HGVs can't be banned without an alternative route - and the application will go back in supported by same.

    You seem to believe that you can just ban HGVs from a national primary route and that they'll just magically disappear. They don't.

    I live in a town that has a HGV ban and isn't on a national primary, secondary or indeed particularly important R road - yet the ban required a decade of planning; a new motorway junction; the upgrading of many other R roads and the comprehensive signing of the HGV routes around the town in all directions.

    That was only possible *because* there was an alternative route - many of them, in fact. There isn't even one for Slane.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭tuathal


    MYOB wrote: »
    I know plenty about them. The income the state gets is a tiny fraction. Not enough to justify some hyperbole about "robbing the state". They get more from the VAT. Probably actually make more from the extra fuel duty from the extra fuel the trucks dodging the M1 toll - through Julianstown and Drogheda - use in the process.
    MYOB wrote: »
    That's not agreeing with me, thats pretending to agree with me.
    A HGV ban cannot be implemented due to no alternative route - not due to it "undermining" anything.

    You keep using your conclusion as your argument. Your opinion is that there is no other route for north south HGVs. That is your opinion, and not based on any definitive study. You don't know exactly how many HGVs are cross-Border, Dublin to Belfast and other long distance routes - for which there is no alternative route needed.
    MYOB wrote: »

    If a report is done and states that a ban can't be done due to no alternative route, what are you going to pretend the report says then?

    Given that a large proportion of HGV traffic is Dublin to Belfast, for which there is no alternative needed, then it is not a question of whether a ban will help, it is a question of how much it will help alleviate danger in Slane. There is really only one way to find that out - and that is to put in the ban. Why are you so against that, when it can only help, and not hurt the traffic situation in Slane?

    MYOB wrote: »

    If the case was strenghtened, why is it not being extended then?

    Because it takes a long time. UNESCO only meets once a year, and the process is still under way. For some reason, I don't think it is a big concern for the current Government...any more than it was for the last...
    MYOB wrote: »

    You've seen the balloon test photos I presume? It impacts not one bit on its "setting". Vehicles using it will be less visible than those on the N2.

    I think the massive bridge proposed, which was going to be highly visible - was of more concern than the cars themselves, which were of course going to be louder, since they were much closer.

    MYOB wrote: »

    Why would you take a judicial review when you can just reapply after showing there's no other suitable routes? You're really trying to invent a strawman here.

    The cost of taking a judicial review is much much less than reapplying. If they were convinced of their case, they would be running into court, believe me.

    MYOB wrote: »
    You're the one crying here - because the planning decision didn't agree with any of your claims at all.

    The Inspectors Report doesn't agree with all of my objections, but it does with most. And the Order does reflect my objection, so you are certainly grabbing at straws there :)
    MYOB wrote: »
    "risked" - as in, it wasn't actually going to lose it. Let UNESCO be appalled all the want - the bypass is not in their boundary zone.

    I said risked losing its status. This whole exercise has been a risk assessment process. The other main risk was that it would be too significant an impact on the environment, when other alternatives were available.

    MCC won't be able to prove that the HGV ban won't work without actually putting it in and trying it. If they think the Board is simply going to fall for another of their self-serving reports, I think they are about to waste a few more million of our taxpayers' money, and risk more lives in the process.

    But obviously you are OK with that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    tuathal wrote: »
    You keep using your conclusion as your argument. Your opinion is that there is no other route for north south HGVs. That is your opinion, and not based on any definitive study. You don't know exactly how many HGVs are cross-Border, Dublin to Belfast and other long distance routes - for which there is no alternative route needed.

    There is no other route north-south for *any* vehicles.

    Dublin-Belfast traffic is not going to divert through Slane to avoid a toll when Julianstown & Drogheda would be far quicker, shorter and fuel efficient. Suggesting that is another hilariously poor attempt at inventing a strawman on your part.
    tuathal wrote: »
    Given that a large proportion of HGV traffic is Dublin to Belfast, for which there is no alternative needed, then it is not a question of whether a ban will help, it is a question of how much it will help alleviate danger in Slane. There is really only one way to find that out - and that is to put in the ban. Why are you so against that, when it can only help, and not hurt the traffic situation in Slane?

    There won't be a ban because there *can't* be a ban. Stop using strawmen.

    tuathal wrote: »
    Because it takes a long time. UNESCO only meets once a year, and the process is still under way. For some reason, I don't think it is a big concern for the current Government...any more than it was for the last...

    It was far more than a year ago that this issue was being churned over.

    Area won't be extended, bypass won't be in area, issue is moot. Stop trying to claw on to it.
    tuathal wrote: »
    I think the massive bridge proposed, which was going to be highly visible - was of more concern than the cars themselves, which were of course going to be louder, since they were much closer.

    Clearly you didn't actually read the report then. It won't be any more visible than the current road.

    Also, a 2+2 bridge is actually smaller than many single carriageway bridges built recently. "Massive" = hyperbole, again.

    tuathal wrote: »

    The cost of taking a judicial review is much much less than reapplying. If they were convinced of their case, they would be running into court, believe me.

    There's nothing to take a judicial review *on*. The order was to go back and prove its required. As always, you're inventing strawmen.

    tuathal wrote: »
    The Inspectors Report doesn't agree with all of my objections, but it does with most. And the Order does reflect my objection, so you are certainly grabbing at straws there :)

    You spent the day of the decision trying to claim a complete victory when neither agrees with you even close to fully.
    tuathal wrote: »
    I said risked losing its status. This whole exercise has been a risk assessment process. The other main risk was that it would be too significant an impact on the environment, when other alternatives were available.

    And its not going to lose its status when the bypass is built, I can guarantee you that.

    tuathal wrote: »
    MCC won't be able to prove that the HGV ban won't work without actually putting it in and trying it. If they think the Board is simply going to fall for another of their self-serving reports, I think they are about to waste a few more million of our taxpayers' money, and risk more lives in the process.

    They are never going to put a ban in place. "putting it in and trying it" isn't an option as there is no alternative route. Its obvious its unworkable to anyone with a modicum of cop-on and any report on it will state this.

    This is like suggesting we should try to push the sea back by shouting at it, to be sure it won't work.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    MYOB wrote: »
    That was only possible *because* there was an alternative route - many of them, in fact. There isn't even one for Slane.
    There is an alternative for long distance HGV traffic - the tolled M1 or untolled old N1.
    Should any truck wander off the M50 onto the M2/N2 they can go via the R150 and Dulleek to Drogheda which isnt much of a diversion.

    For local HGV traffic, the odd milk lorry or whatever, you could implement an exemption enforced through permits.

    the number of HGVs would go from 1600 a day to barely a fraction of that.
    Meaning the risk of anyone getting injuired or killed by a hgv also drops to a fraction of what it was before.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There is an alternative for long distance HGV traffic - the tolled M1 or untolled old N1.
    Should any truck wander off the M50 onto the M2/N2 they can go via the R150 and Dulleek to Drogheda which isnt much of a diversion.

    For local HGV traffic, the odd milk lorry or whatever, you could implement an exemption enforced through permits.

    the number of HGVs would go from 1600 a day to barely a fraction of that.
    Meaning the risk of anyone getting injuired or killed by a hgv also drops to a fraction of what it was before.

    The M1 or the R132 are not alternatives for going from Ardee to Finglas.

    Not is going over to Duleek "not much" of a diversion.

    Alternative routes for HGV bans have to be sensible, not miles out of the way like what you're suggesting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    MYOB wrote: »
    The M1 or the R132 are not alternatives for going from Ardee to Finglas.

    Not is going over to Duleek "not much" of a diversion.

    Alternative routes for HGV bans have to be sensible, not miles out of the way like what you're suggesting.
    Finglas to Ardee is 43.9miles via Duleek compared to 40.7miles direct via Slane. (according to google maps)

    That is not a massive diversion


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Just one example. Many others involve similar, or far longer, diversions and a lot of assumptions appear to be being made that traffic "should" be on the M1 when its not serving that route at all.

    An "alternative route" that is nearly 30km to get around, side to side, is not in any way acceptable for a HGV ban.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    MYOB wrote: »
    Just one example. Many others involve similar, or far longer, diversions and a lot of assumptions appear to be being made that traffic "should" be on the M1 when its not serving that route at all.

    An "alternative route" that is nearly 30km to get around, side to side, is not in any way acceptable for a HGV ban.
    couldnt possibly agree.

    Where is the magic source of trucks that travel from the wilderness south of Slane to the Wilderness north of Slane?
    Theres no industry or anything else that would require large loads over this short distance, probably with the exception of trucks carrying agri products and milk - so just exempt them.

    The germans have a great saying, "for every rule there there's its exeptions" and this is no exception to the possibility of implementing selected exceptions!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I wouldn't call Ashbourne, Ardee, etc "wilderness".

    The nearest bridges either side are far too far away for any form of HGV ban to be implemented.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    Just one example. Many others involve similar, or far longer, diversions and a lot of assumptions appear to be being made that traffic "should" be on the M1 when its not serving that route at all.

    An "alternative route" that is nearly 30km to get around, side to side, is not in any way acceptable for a HGV ban.

    Go on, give us some examples.

    How long does it take to get around the Dublin HGV ban?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    Go on, give us some examples.

    How long does it take to get around the Dublin HGV ban?

    Significantly less than a 30km round trip from edge to edge; its also not a 24hr ban and was not put in place without ensuring there was a suitable and free route out (the DPT) for the vast, vast majority of the banned traffic. The Dublin HGV ban could only be compared to Slane if, amazingly, Slane had a bypass.

    The worst diversion around my town's HGV ban adds 5km edge to edge.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    monument wrote: »
    Go on, give us some examples.

    How long does it take to get around the Dublin HGV ban?

    Apples and oranges. They had a tunnel built especially for them - and are helped to keep it free from non HGV traffic by extortionately high prices at peak times.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,236 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    couldnt possibly agree.

    Where is the magic source of trucks that travel from the wilderness south of Slane to the Wilderness north of Slane?
    Theres no industry or anything else that would require large loads over this short distance, probably with the exception of trucks carrying agri products and milk - so just exempt them.

    The germans have a great saying, "for every rule there there's its exeptions" and this is no exception to the possibility of implementing selected exceptions!
    Eh, the Roadstone quarry?? There are also haulage companies based in the area, particularly in Collon, Co. Louth (and perhaps they could be shifted off to the M1, legal issues notwithstanding).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    MYOB wrote: »
    I wouldn't call Ashbourne, Ardee, etc "wilderness".

    The nearest bridges either side are far too far away for any form of HGV ban to be implemented.
    nope, but between these 2 towns is nothing but wilderness.
    No industry and definitely no daily source of 100s of not 1000s of tonnes of produce that has no option except to be moved over Slane bridge.

    what is being moved across slane bridge are products coming from outside the area heading to outside the area, i.e. trucks that will suffer very little if send the 3miles extra via Drogheda.
    Things like industrial quantities of Bitumen or artics full of reams of paper and Northern registered trucks on long distance journeys.

    I took a virtual spin on the road north of Slane via google maps and aside from a slurry tanker behind a tractor, all vehicles bigger than a small panel van are not on local business.
    Heres the streetviews of the vehicles I've seen so far and all could be diverted via Drogheda
    http://maps.google.de/maps?saddr=finglas&daddr=ardee&hl=de&ll=53.723428,-6.523647&spn=0.040069,0.111494&sll=53.63395,-6.37112&sspn=0.642463,1.783905&geocode=FV3gLgMdDrGf_ynhDZrlChJnSDEA45bxrMcAGA%3BFfTRNQMdIzKc_ym1-5TyWkpnSDEg1DGXqccACg&doflg=ptm&mra=luc&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.723712,-6.523404&panoid=uXR-2rsf34m73NH_mFu38g&cbp=12,4.33,,1,1.91
    http://maps.google.de/maps?saddr=finglas&daddr=ardee&hl=de&ll=53.7281,-6.517038&spn=0.040065,0.111494&sll=53.63395,-6.37112&sspn=0.642463,1.783905&geocode=FV3gLgMdDrGf_ynhDZrlChJnSDEA45bxrMcAGA%3BFfTRNQMdIzKc_ym1-5TyWkpnSDEg1DGXqccACg&doflg=ptm&mra=luc&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.728013,-6.517157&panoid=MNFU8up5k3IITA5JlMFJAQ&cbp=12,266.22,,0,15
    http://maps.google.de/maps?saddr=finglas&daddr=ardee&hl=de&ll=53.728455,-6.516438&spn=0.040064,0.111494&sll=53.63395,-6.37112&sspn=0.642463,1.783905&geocode=FV3gLgMdDrGf_ynhDZrlChJnSDEA45bxrMcAGA%3BFfTRNQMdIzKc_ym1-5TyWkpnSDEg1DGXqccACg&doflg=ptm&mra=luc&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.728235,-6.516812&panoid=UraCMsjH0QeTZQTK90hzXQ&cbp=12,308.06,,0,10.21
    http://maps.google.de/maps?saddr=finglas&daddr=ardee&hl=de&ll=53.737188,-6.511717&spn=0.040056,0.111494&sll=53.63395,-6.37112&sspn=0.642463,1.783905&geocode=FV3gLgMdDrGf_ynhDZrlChJnSDEA45bxrMcAGA%3BFfTRNQMdIzKc_ym1-5TyWkpnSDEg1DGXqccACg&doflg=ptm&mra=luc&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.737116,-6.511798&panoid=c4aBTTbka37uHgmDAYmxMw&cbp=12,142.16,,0,14.56
    http://maps.google.de/maps?saddr=finglas&daddr=ardee&hl=de&ll=53.743584,-6.506996&spn=0.04005,0.111494&sll=53.63395,-6.37112&sspn=0.642463,1.783905&geocode=FV3gLgMdDrGf_ynhDZrlChJnSDEA45bxrMcAGA%3BFfTRNQMdIzKc_ym1-5TyWkpnSDEg1DGXqccACg&doflg=ptm&mra=luc&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.743691,-6.506893&panoid=u3s596rGKkFT7AQ52OHwnA&cbp=12,217.38,,1,6.03
    http://maps.google.de/maps?saddr=finglas&daddr=ardee&hl=de&ll=53.743432,-6.507082&spn=0.04005,0.111494&sll=53.63395,-6.37112&sspn=0.642463,1.783905&geocode=FV3gLgMdDrGf_ynhDZrlChJnSDEA45bxrMcAGA%3BFfTRNQMdIzKc_ym1-5TyWkpnSDEg1DGXqccACg&doflg=ptm&mra=luc&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.743888,-6.506743&panoid=HM7w51rGSigy033zi1BHqQ&cbp=12,327.23,,0,6.41


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    Significantly less than a 30km round trip from edge to edge; its also not a 24hr ban and was not put in place without ensuring there was a suitable and free route out (the DPT) for the vast, vast majority of the banned traffic. The Dublin HGV ban could only be compared to Slane if, amazingly, Slane had a bypass.

    The worst diversion around my town's HGV ban adds 5km edge to edge.
    antoobrien wrote: »
    Apples and oranges. They had a tunnel built especially for them - and are helped to keep it free from non HGV traffic by extortionately high prices at peak times.


    The port tunnel does not allow for HGV traffic to get from one side of the other of the ban area -- see map here.

    Here's a journey which takes 26km around the ban area -- link to google maps. I'm sure I could find more.

    For the vast, vast majority of HGVs Slane does have a bypass, two of them -- the M1 and M3. Many trucks are already using the M1 and M3 as a bypass and others can too.

    HGVs have to pay a toll using the Westlink, unless something has changed recently?

    The two of you are showing that you don't know what your are talking about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,236 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    munchkin utd, considering Panda are a local waste disposal company with offices in Drogheda and there's a trailer loaded with hay bales in another photo (yes trucks with NI regs can also be found on business in the Republic), the second and fifth photos could easily depict trucks destined for somewhere in the area. Notwithstanding that, there's been a clear need shown in this thread and in the ABP inspector's report for an origin/destination study and popping up some very speculative choices for photographs based on Google maps is a worthless endeavour tbh. It doesn't even serve as a rough guide with 6 photos selected by someone with considerable bias and not even a mention of how many trucks were "checked" for their likely destination!

    I have to say, your knowledge of what does and doesn't operate in the area seems quite limited and in any case is fundamentally irrelevant to the engineering issue at hand. My main problem with the HGV ban being an issue is that when the ban is in place, there STILL needs to be a new bridge built!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,236 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    monument wrote: »
    For the vast, vast majority of HGVs Slane does have a bypass, two of them -- the M1 and M3. Many trucks are already using the M1 and M3 as a bypass and others can too.
    With respect, where has that been demonstrated? All that can be demonstrated so far is that there is business activity in the area such that the proportion is non negligible. (I.e. more than one or two a day). There's no basis for anything beyond that until a detailed study is carried out. Anything else is futile speculation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    Here's a journey which takes 26km around the ban area -- link to google maps. I'm sure I could find more.

    Far less likely journey than needing to get from one side of Slane to the other. Not comparable.
    monument wrote: »
    HGVs have to pay a toll using the Westlink, unless something has changed recently?

    HGVs are not banned from the toll-free alternatives. Also, the Westlink never exited untolled.
    monument wrote: »

    The two of you are showing that you don't know what your are talking about.

    Erm. No. You're showing that you don't know anything about HGV traffic on the N2, though.

    If HGV traffic is going to avoid the M1 or M3 tolls, they're going to use the R132 and R147 - NOT divert on to the N2.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    nope, but between these 2 towns is nothing but wilderness.
    No industry and definitely no daily source of 100s of not 1000s of tonnes of produce that has no option except to be moved over Slane bridge.

    I suspected there was a lot of google maps & streetview work going on here, which is of absolutely no relevance because it captures a single snapshot of the road route (and the objects on/around it) at a particular time. Hell if you look at this streetview location would you take it for a road that carries 36k+ vehicles in a day?

    So let's look at something concrete and relevant - the inspectors report:

    from page 94
    6.7 Alternatives without Bypass Construction
    The alternatives discussed above are all orientated to the construction of a bypass around Slane, whether it be to the west or east of the village. It would be fair to state that there is a consensus that the current traffic situation is intolerable so that the Do Nothing or Do Minimum scenarios are not acceptable. Insofar as there might be an alternative not involving the construction of a bypass, this essentially would comprise the retention of the existing bridge for limited use, together with the diversion of most or all of the heavy goods traffic from the bridge to other routes, expressed as a HGV ban. Having regard to the need to outline alternatives considered as part of the environmental impact assessment process, it is appropriate as part of this assessment that alternatives other than those incorporating the construction of a bypass ought to
    __________________________________________________________________________________
    PL17.HA0026/KA0015 An Bord Pleanála Page 95 of 124
    be examined in some detail, essentially with regard to their feasibility and their likely effectiveness in solving the traffic problems in Slane. If these problems could be solved without necessitating the construction of a new element of infrastructure, then the consideration of such alternatives is clearly relevant to this assessment.

    The feasibility of imposing such a ban was the subject of extensive discussions and reports involving the members of Meath County Council, the officials of Meath County Council, the National Roads Authority and the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport. Details of these discussions and reports were made available in material submitted during the course of the hearing and it is clear that the officials of the Council came to the conclusion that the imposition of a HGV ban on the bridge would not have been a satisfactory solution to the safety and traffic problems in Slane

    From page 97
    The record of traffic flows on the N2 over the past decade sheds some light on this pattern of movement. Following the opening of the M1 in 2003 there was a dramatic fall in traffic flows on the N2 but in the subsequent years there has been a significant compensating rise in flows, greater than that on the road network in general.

    Now the inspector here comes to an interesting conclusion, that after a fall of when the tolled road opened traffic started coming back to the untolled road because of toll dodging. This does not take into account the fact that there may have been new business in the area. 2003-2009 was the height of house & road building ffs, if it was the same as the rest of the country the N2 should have been busy with HGVs.

    The view also goes against the evidence provided by other tolled roads in Ireland. The tolled section of the M6 in Galway has apparently taken traffic off the old N6 in 2011, indicating a drop in toll dodging.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    monument wrote: »
    The port tunnel does not allow for HGV traffic to get from one side of the other of the ban area -- see map here.

    Here's a journey which takes 26km around the ban area -- link to google maps. I'm sure I could find more.

    For the vast, vast majority of HGVs Slane does have a bypass, two of them -- the M1 and M3. Many trucks are already using the M1 and M3 as a bypass and others can too.

    HGVs have to pay a toll using the Westlink, unless something has changed recently?

    The two of you are showing that you don't know what your are talking about.

    God I love the maps warrior brigade, so deluded.

    from talking to a truck driver he said that the enforced HGV ban was a godsend because it saves him diesel & time from not being stopped every km or so on the N4 into Dublin and every few hundred meters on the keys. So yeah the 26km diversion (part of which I take to get to Artane from the N4) in conjunction with the Port tunnel does allow them to avoid the area in question.

    Come to think of it, despite the fact that I live nearer to the N11 that the M50, I'd never consider using the N11 to get to south Dublin, despite the M50 being about 22km longer for me and supposedly cheaper because I'm avoiding tolls.

    Interestingly google maps is predicting the two town bound routes being 10 minutes longer in current traffic. I wonder what that'll be like at 5.30 or 6.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    monument wrote: »
    Here's a journey which takes 26km around the ban area -- link to google maps. I'm sure I could find more.

    Far less likely journey than needing to get from one side of Slane to the other. Not comparable.

    Why is it? Just because you say so?

    And there's loads of others points on the north and south side with about the same kind of trips or longer.
    MYOB wrote: »
    monument wrote: »
    HGVs have to pay a toll using the Westlink, unless something has changed recently?

    HGVs are not banned from the toll-free alternatives. Also, the Westlink never exited untolled.

    What toll-free alternatives are you talking about?
    MYOB wrote: »
    monument wrote: »
    The two of you are showing that you don't know what your are talking about.

    Erm. No. You're showing that you don't know anything about HGV traffic on the N2, though.

    If HGV traffic is going to avoid the M1 or M3 tolls, they're going to use the R132 and R147 - NOT divert on to the N2.

    Let's not get away from my valid point -- The points you made were factually incorrect and I've backed that up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,411 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    And there's loads of others points on the north and south side with about the same kind of trips or longer.

    You selecting a route (that isn't the most direct by any means) from two random points is not comparable to being unable to cross a river for a 30km round trip.
    Edge to edge of the Dublin HGV ban is *far* less than 30km. You aren't going to find a single routing through it that's made 30km longer.
    monument wrote: »
    What toll-free alternatives are you talking about?

    All routes used to cross the Liffey in west Dublin prior to the M50 being built. Which are available to cars *and* HGVs.
    monument wrote: »
    Let's not get away from my valid point -- The points you made were factually incorrect and I've backed that up.

    Nothing I said was factually incorrect. Selective "backing up" on your part is the lie here.

    To add - the entire area inside the Dublin 5-axle ban is regional roads; Slane is a National Primary

    The Dublin 5-axle ban still allows vehicles of a weight, size and handling characteristics which are not suited for Slane - which would almost inevitable get a 5 tonne ban instead.

    The two are completely incomparable.


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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 13,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    tuathal wrote:
    By the way. one not so obvious reason for the denial of planning permission is the concept of "cumulative effects", in the EIA Directive. Objectors argued that the bypass must be seen in the context of other developments in the area - the big one being the M1, which shaves the other side of the World Heritage Site. When that was built, the Site was not even mentioned in the EIS - and An Bord Pleanala gave permission on a flawed application. The Board clearly had egg on their face after that stroke by the NRA and MCC.

    UNESCO came over on a fact finding mission afterwards, were appalled, and gave a damning report. The bypass would have been a step too far, and risked the Site losing its status as a UNESCO site.


    Well, where was the M1 motorway bridge over the river Boyne to be sited otherwise? Or perhaps it shouldn't have been built at all according to your logic.

    Your point about both the almost 10 year old existing M1 Drogheda bypass/Boyne bridge and the proposed N2 Slane bypass acting in concert to "threaten" the Bru Na Boinne site IMO thinly veils your clear contempt for roads and the need for them. That seems to be the real agenda here.


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