Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Please note that it is not permitted to have referral links posted in your signature. Keep these links contained in the appropriate forum. Thank you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Small success in preventing unnecessary insurance discrimination on nationality

  • 17-08-2012 05:49PM
    #1
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭


    Hi All, I have been complaining for years about Quinn's policy on nationality detirmining your insurance premium as nationality clearly has nothing to do with driving experience. Thread here and here and here.

    I hoped that Liberty Mutual would turn this policy around but noted that they were still asking residency questions for quotation purposes. Off to the DPC.

    I just got this notification from the Data Protection Comissioner;
    Data Protection Comissioner wrote:
    Dear Mr. *******,

    I refer further to your complaint against Liberty Insurance concerning the
    level of personal data sought, specifically the question "How many years
    have you been resident in the UK or Republic of Ireland" on its on-line
    quotation form.

    This Office raised the matter of your complaint with Liberty Insurance and
    in its response Liberty Insurance stated the following:

    "Driving Laws, road conditions, road signage, etc. can vary across
    countries and it is prudent for an underwriter to take this into
    consideration in determining risk. To provide an example drivers in
    Ireland and the UK drive on the left hand side of the road and the majority
    of cars are right hand drive unlike countries elsewhere in Europe or some
    other continents. It would be prudent for an underwriter to take into
    consideration a driver's familiarity with road conditions in the country in
    which they will be driving when underwriting and rating risk.

    This is information which many insurers currently seek and consider in
    their assessment to underwrite a risk. We believe that this question is
    relevant and is not excessive."

    As this explanation tells us that the insurance company's interest is not
    "residency" but years of experience of driving on the left hand side of the
    road, we advised Liberty Insurance to amend the question accordingly. To
    that end, we recently received a letter from Liberty Insurance informing us
    that it proposes to change the question which was the subject of your
    complaint to read "How many years have you been driving in the UK or
    Republic of Ireland?" We are satisfied that the question with regard to
    "residency" will be removed and will be replaced with a question which is
    relevant to the provision of insurance cover.

    Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    MugMugs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    It's not really a win though, is it?


  • #3
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    MugMugs wrote: »
    It's not really a win though, is it?

    How so?


  • #4
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,352 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Always good to hear when the 'little person' makes a difference.
    Well done on not giving up.


  • #5
    MugMugs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    MadsL wrote: »
    MugMugs wrote: »
    It's not really a win though, is it?

    How so?

    Well how is it? You got them to change their wording to a different variation of pretty much the same question. They're still getting the info they want.


  • #6
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    MugMugs wrote: »
    Well how is it? You got them to change their wording to a different variation of pretty much the same question. They're still getting the info they want.

    It is not the same information. Read it again.

    It is the difference between asking "where did you live" and "what driving experience do you have". Residency is irrelevant for insurance purposes as you do not absorb driving experience from the thin air.


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    Jimbob 83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭Jimbob 83


    Residency is a huge factor on insurance and rightly so as some parts are alot rougher than others unfortunately.

    Im sure an Irish person even getting insured in the UK would pay through the nose for afew years


  • #8
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Jimbob 83 wrote: »
    Current Residency is a huge factor on insurance and rightly so as some parts are alot rougher than others unfortunately.

    Fixed that for you Jimbob, previous residency is irrelevant - previous driving experience is relevant.
    Im sure an Irish person even getting insured in the UK would pay through the nose for afew years

    On what basis? Because they are Irish?


  • #9
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    On the back of this, are any other insurance companies asking nationality or residency type questions?


  • #10
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,869 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    MadsL wrote: »
    It is not the same information. Read it again.

    It is the difference between asking "where did you live" and "what driving experience do you have". Residency is irrelevant for insurance purposes as you do not absorb driving experience from the thin air.

    But is the same, other wise driving experience in Singapore, Japan, India, Australia, etc would be relevant and asked for.


  • #11
    MugMugs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    MadsL wrote: »
    MugMugs wrote: »
    Well how is it? You got them to change their wording to a different variation of pretty much the same question. They're still getting the info they want.

    It is not the same information. Read it again.

    It is the difference between asking "where did you live" and "what driving experience do you have". Residency is irrelevant for insurance purposes as you do not absorb driving experience from the thin air.

    They still get what they want though. Indian man getting insured for the first time still has to.answer 0 years.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    MadsL wrote: »
    How so?

    Because it's not a win. It's a loose.

    Imagine person who moved to Ireland from EU in 2007.
    Assume that person didn't drive for 3 years after coming here, and only started driving in 2010.
    Therefore answer to initial question (residency) would be 5 years, while answer about driving experience on Irish roads would be only 2 years, which would cause increased premium..
    That would be quite often scenario.


    I wouldn't call it a win against insurance company. I would rather call it a way to give them a hint to make even more money.


  • #13
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    MugMugs wrote: »
    They still get what they want though. Indian man getting insured for the first time still has to.answer 0 years.

    Except originally Quinn were asking "what is your nationality?" which discriminated heavily against the Indian on his nationality not his driving experience. At least now they are asking about relevant experience. The Indian in the scenario could now make a complaint about the fact that his Indian driving experience is not taken into account.
    GerardKeating wrote: »
    But is the same, other wise driving experience in Singapore, Japan, India, Australia, etc would be relevant and asked for.

    I'm suprised that the DPC accepted that restriction to the UK and Ireland. Grounds for further complaint from someone with Australian driving experience.
    CiniO wrote: »
    Because it's not a win. It's a loose.

    Imagine person who moved to Ireland from EU in 2007.
    Assume that person didn't drive for 3 years after coming here, and only started driving in 2010.
    Therefore answer to initial question (residency) would be 5 years, while answer about driving experience on Irish roads would be only 2 years, which would cause increased premium..
    That would be quite often scenario.

    Are you seriously arguing on a Motors forum that an inexperienced motorist should have the same quote as someone with 3 years more actual driving experience? I'm confused as to why you would want to effectively subsidise the inexperienced driver.
    I wouldn't call it a win against insurance company. I would rather call it a way to give them a hint to make even more money.

    Or you could look at the other way and see that as an opportunity for the insurance company to more accurately quote experienced drivers.
    OSI wrote: »
    There is no win against insurance companies. Just look at the gender bias ruling. Just means women will have to pay same premiums as men now, rather then men's dropping.

    Ah the old mentality of "sure, why bother" alive and well.


  • #14
    MugMugs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Eh, this is growing legs. Your complaint was how many years have you been resident not what nationality are you!

    You're mis quoting yourself now.


  • #15
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Read the history. Quinn originally asked "What is your nationality?" when quoting people. They then changed it to "How long have you lived in Ireland?" and refused to budge further - this gave them the out to charge foreign nationals more than Irish nationals - finally Liberty Mutual have conceded that driving experience not nationality or residence period is what they are allowed to ask as relevant to the purposes of the quote.

    The historical background is in the threads I quoted in the OP.

    edit: Mugs, are you just arguing with this for the sake of it, or do you really believe an insurance company should factor where used to live rather than what driving experience you have?


  • #16
    CantGetNoSleep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭CantGetNoSleep


    But driving experience in the UK or Irl, not driving experience.

    For an EU national typically they would live in Ireland for a while before driving, making this situation worse than previously (from their point of view).


  • #17
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    MadsL wrote: »

    Are you seriously arguing on a Motors forum that an inexperienced motorist should have the same quote as someone with 3 years more actual driving experience? I'm confused as to why you would want to effectively subsidise the inexperienced driver.

    If you ask, then yes - I do think that inexperienced motorist should have the same premium as experienced one, until it can be shown that this particular inexperienced motorist is more likely to cause accident.
    Anyway - that's off-topic here, so now back to the topic.

    Someone who didn't drive in in Ireland for few years after coming here, doesn't necesserily need to be inexperienced motorist. This person could have driven for the last 20 years in his home country and only stop driving for few years after moving here.


  • #18
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    CantGetNoSleep wrote: »
    But driving experience in the UK or Irl, not driving experience.

    Again, I would prefer to see normalisation where it was illegal to discriminate against an EU citizen verses a 'national' within EU borders for any services including insurance.

    This is a step towards that.
    For an EU national typically they would live in Ireland for a while before driving, making this situation worse than previously (from their point of view).

    Worse? Or fairer to those people with actual driving experience? I hate to hammer home the point but we are talking about forcing the insurance company to calculate experience rather than just living somewhere regardless of driving or not.


  • #19
    ShadowHearth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,924 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    Is there really higher premiums for foreigners? I never noticed that.


  • #20
    Jimbob 83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭Jimbob 83


    Surely where you currently live is relevant to calculating your risk.

    All insurance companies ask you how long you have lived in the country you are getting insured in, after 5 years it becomes a non factor.

    I really fail to see the issue here as it's the same for everyone and if i moved to another country i would expect it


  • #21
    MugMugs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    MadsL wrote: »

    edit: Mugs, are you just arguing with this for the sake of it, or do you really believe an insurance company should factor where used to live rather than what driving experience you have?

    Well working with "risk" daily I can appreciate the variables involved in a non national driving on Irish roads for the first few years. I've seen the consequences of risk. Insurance is a risk transfer method. An insurer is adopting YOUR risk for a premium. I am of the belief that if they can calculate a risk by asking certain material facts that they should be allowed to.

    I'm not arguing with you. Im giving you my point. It's my opinion and thankfully I'm entitled to it.

    I don't believe you've won anything here.


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    cgarrad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭cgarrad


    MadsL wrote: »
    nationality clearly has nothing to do with driving experience.

    Have you every left this country, not everybody is the same and pretending they are is foolish in the extreme.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Traffic_related_deaths_-_Road_fatalities_per_capita.svg

    Your pushing up insurance for everybody to cover these people who are higher risk. Not my opinion, its just fact.


  • #23
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    CiniO wrote: »
    If you ask, then yes - I do think that inexperienced motorist should have the same premium as experienced one, until it can be shown that this particular inexperienced motorist is more likely to cause accident.
    Anyway - that's off-topic here, so now back to the topic.

    Someone who didn't drive in in Ireland for few years after coming here, doesn't necesserily need to be inexperienced motorist. This person could have driven for the last 20 years in his home country and only stop driving for few years after moving here.

    You will also find that in most iinsurance system will penalise you for a break in insurance. In the US I was quoted a $1000 difference for having lapsed insurance (my insurance company fckd up and cancelled my insurance without telling me)

    This case was about relevance - under the law a company can only request relevant information. Where you have lived is irrelevant for the purpose for which it is requested, therefore illegal.
    ShadowHearth wrote: »
    Is there really higher premiums for foreigners? I never noticed that.

    Yes, when they used to ask. My wife is American but held an Irish licence. In 2003 when Quinn were asking about nationality here's what they were quoting with a new Irish licence.

    Female 53 Irish 2.0L car = about 2k iirc.
    Female 53 American 2.0L car = 2791 euro
    Female 53 Korean 2.0L = 5354 euro
    Jimbob 83 wrote: »
    Surely where you currently live is relevant to calculating your risk.

    Yes, currently. Where you used to live is not relevant. Get it?
    All insurance companies ask you how long you have lived in the country you are getting insured in, after 5 years it becomes a non factor.

    Why is how long you have lived in a country relevant to driving? How long you have held a licence is valid and relevant, not if you lived in Ballywotsit all your life. Compare two people. One lived in Australia for ten years, comes back to Ireland and has held a Irish licence for 3 years. The other has lived in Ireland all their life and has held a licence for one year. Under the system of asking how long have you lived in Ireland, the one year licence gets cheaper insurance - completely illogical.
    I really fail to see the issue here as it's the same for everyone and if i moved to another country i would expect it
    You are mixing up currently living and have lived.
    MugMugs wrote: »
    Well working with "risk" daily I can appreciate the variables involved in a non national driving on Irish roads for the first few years.
    Do you think a foreign national and an Irish national who have both held an Irish licence for three years should be the same risk? If so do you have some studies or actuarial data for that? I'd love to see it. Do you actually believe nationality plays a part in driving ability?
    MugMugs wrote: »
    I've seen the consequences of risk. Insurance is a risk transfer method. An insurer is adopting YOUR risk for a premium. I am of the belief that if they can calculate a risk by asking certain material facts that they should be allowed to.
    How is nationality rather than driving history more relevant to the risk?
    I'm not arguing with you. Im giving you my point. It's my opinion and thankfully I'm entitled to it.
    And I asked the DPC to give theirs, they disagree with you.
    I don't believe you've won anything here.
    If you think winning a case brought against an insurance company to get them to abide by the law of the land is a lose, I don't know what to tell you. Did you go for a long walk with a sign in Cavan recently?


  • #24
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    cgarrad wrote: »
    Have you every left this country, not everybody is the same and pretending they are is foolish in the extreme.

    I'm on my fourth international move, I lived in four countries and visited over thirty.

    So, if "not everybody is the same and pretending they are is foolish in the extreme"
    can I refuse to hire, oh I dunno, Irish?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Traffic_related_deaths_-_Road_fatalities_per_capita.svg

    So the only factor in the difference between the nations statistics is nationality is it?
    Your pushing up insurance for everybody to cover these people who are higher risk. Not my opinion, its just fact.

    Utter nonsense. The more accurately were are quoted the better for everyone. At the moment you are subsidising inexperienced Irish drivers compared to experienced foreign nationals. How is that fair?


  • #25
    cgarrad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭cgarrad


    MadsL wrote: »
    I'm on my fourth international move, I lived in four countries and visited over thirty.

    So, if "not everybody is the same and pretending they are is foolish in the extreme"
    can I refuse to hire, oh I dunno, Irish?

    This makes no sense????
    MadsL wrote: »
    So the only factor in the difference between the nations statistics is nationality is it?

    No but its the predominant factor.

    MadsL wrote: »
    Utter nonsense. The more accurately were are quoted the better for everyone. At the moment you are subsidising inexperienced Irish drivers compared to experienced foreign nationals. How is that fair?

    The "more accurately we are quoted the better for everyone." you say but you trying to restrict the amount of information that the quotes are based on. Seriously read what you write....


  • #26
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭goz83


    The nationality of a person should not be taken into account. It doesn't matter if they're American, Italian, or Irish, or whatever! The previous residence has little bearing here. The driving experience in the country of current residency is the the relevant piece of information here. If we are to go down the nationality road, sure we might as well say redheads are a big road rage risk.

    In saying this, i think the "what type of license do you hold" is still very relevant and can be one way for the insurer to get your nationality. An Iish license (at least modern ones) say that you've been tested on irish roads.


  • #27
    bmstuff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭bmstuff


    goz83 wrote: »
    The previous residence has little bearing here. The driving experience in the country of current residency is the the relevant piece of information here. If we are to go down the nationality road, sure we might as well say redheads are a big road rage risk.

    Well previous driving experience is what matters of course, and usually this is linked to the previous country of residence, the fact you acquired it in a country where they drive on the left is very much relevant. If you come from the UK with UK experience, obviously you insurance will be cheaper that if you come from Spain, because you are not used to drive on the left.
    If you just moved to Ireland and are seeking to insure you car here, of course the previous experience and residence will very much matter, especially if they accept it along with your previous insurance cert.

    But honestly, this LHD/RHD driving experience is just BS anyway. It takes 2-3 hours for most people to get used to it. I am sure Irish driving abroad don't really have an issue with LHD cars driving on the right. It takes a few hours that's it.

    When I came over years ago with my LHD car, there was no way I was going to pay thousands, so after spending some time researching, I got insured through a US broker via AIG (American Insurance Group) and issued an Irish insurance disk. I paid 600 euro the very first year I was here. The cheapest normal Irish insurance was about 2000.


  • #28
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Speaking generally - the more insurance premium is dependant on how much insured person is at risk, the more whole insurance system is nonsense.
    F.e. if they could predict 100% how much someone is at risk, everyone would have to pay premium equal to the amount of claims he will have + some percentage which would be insurance company income.

    Idea of insurance, is to pay small premium to protect you against big claims you might encounter. Where insurance companies start to charge people as much as they would claim, whole insurance system doesn't make sense anymore.


  • #29
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    cgarrad wrote: »
    This makes no sense????
    Are you really struggling with the notion that it is illegal and unethical to discriminate on the basis of nationality? Come on.
    No but its the predominant factor.
    Think about what you are saying here. Are you seriously saying the reason that Dutch drivers have half as many accidents as Irish drivers is because the Irish drivers are Irish??? Wut?
    The "more accurately we are quoted the better for everyone." you say but you trying to restrict the amount of information that the quotes are based on.

    Nope, the law restricts what they can use.
    2.-(1) A data controller shall, as respects personal data kept by him or her, comply with the following provisions:

    (c) the data-

    (iii) shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purpose or purposes for which they were collected or are further processed,
    URL="http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp? DocID=796#2A"]source[/URL

    Which is better, a quote based on relevant factors or a quote loaded because of irrelevant ones? Perhaps you are trying to argue that foreign drivers should unfairly pay more than Irish ones? I'd also point you to the fact that as far as I am aware this is the only insurance company that asks this question; so I'm just getting one company to comply with a law with which the others are already complying. Is that wrong in some way?


    Seriously read what you write....

    As someone who just argued that discrimination on the basis of nationality is OK and that Irish drivers are crap because they are Irish, I think you really ought to read your own posts again. :)


  • #30
    cgarrad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭cgarrad


    MadsL wrote: »
    Are you really struggling with the notion that it is illegal and unethical to discriminate on the basis of nationality? Come on.
    Is it ethical that one group should pay more to insure their cars due to a second groups perceived rights? As for it making no sense I was referring to the grammar used not the content btw.
    MadsL wrote: »
    Think about what you are saying here. Are you seriously saying the reason that Dutch drivers have half as many accidents as Irish drivers is because the Irish drivers are Irish??? Wut?
    Firstly Irish drivers are poor to say the least. Secondly you are discriminating against the Dutch that come over here as the are forced to pay elevated premiums.

    MadsL wrote: »
    Which is better, a quote based on relevant factors or a quote loaded because of irrelevant ones? Perhaps you are trying to argue that foreign drivers should unfairly pay more than Irish ones? I'd also point you to the fact that as far as I am aware this is the only insurance company that asks this question; so I'm just getting one company to comply with a law with which the others are already complying. Is that wrong in some way?

    No I'm saying some should pay more, some less.
    MadsL wrote: »
    As someone who just argued that discrimination on the basis of nationality is OK and that Irish drivers are crap because they are Irish, I think you really ought to read your own posts again. :)

    How is it discrimination when based on fact? If a country has worse driver then it has worst drivers. Is that a reason to push up Irish premia. If I go to the Netherlands I would expect to pay more. Its common sense.

    People dont change, they really dont. If you put a Japanese person in Ireland they dont become Irish. Likewise an Italian driver is going to be a higher risk than a Dutch driver. Driving on Irish roads will alter the driver for a few weeks but the old ways come back. I have driven all over Europe, I dont have a different driving style for each country.

    What drives you want to pretend they are not? There is no benefit to pretending we are all the same? What are your views on age and sex of the driver? Are they irrelevant also?


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    Colonel Sanders
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    OSI wrote: »
    Just means women will have to pay same premiums as men now, rather then men's dropping.

    100% incorrect


  • #32
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    cgarrad wrote: »
    Is it ethical that one group should pay more to insure their cars due to a second groups perceived rights?

    I think you are missing the point that is is one insurance company that was doing this, all the others (as far as I am aware) don't do this.

    In answer to your question, let me ask you this; Insurance companies used to ask (before the DPC intervened) what your marital status was. Now if it were shown that married people were getting cheaper insurance - would that be fair or ethical?
    As for it making no sense I was referring to the grammar used not the content btw.

    I said "So, if "not everybody is the same and pretending they are is foolish in the extreme" can I refuse to hire, oh I dunno, Irish?

    You said "So, if "not everybody is the same and pretending they are is foolish in the extreme" and I asked does that mean that I can refuse to hire Irish since "not everybody is the same" and I prefer Oaanak* as employees?
    *made up country
    Firstly Irish drivers are poor to say the least.
    Are they? Is that just your opinion because the statistics I quoted show they are about average in the EU.
    Secondly you are discriminating against the Dutch that come over here as the are forced to pay elevated premiums.

    No, you cannot discriminate against someone by treating them the same as everyone else. That is what I am arguing for, a fair premium based on driving experience.

    No I'm saying some should pay more, some less.

    Can you be clearer? Who should pay more/less in your view.
    How is it discrimination when based on fact? If a country has worse driver then it has worst drivers.

    Because if you take a moment to think about it you are saying the equivalent of there is more rain in Ireland than Dubai because it is Ireland. That says nothing about the reasons for the rainfall pattern.
    Is that a reason to push up Irish premia. If I go to the Netherlands I would expect to pay more. Its common sense.
    You would expect to pay more than a Dutchman with the same driving history? Why?
    People dont change, they really dont. If you put a Japanese person in Ireland they dont become Irish.
    I never said they did. If you put a Japanese person in Ireland for five years they can become Irish. What is your point?
    Likewise an Italian driver is going to be a higher risk than a Dutch driver.
    Is an Italian with a 30 year unblemished driving history a bigger risk than a newly qualified Dutch driver with two accidents already?
    Driving on Irish roads will alter the driver for a few weeks but the old ways come back.
    "The old ways" - sorry what? What would they be? - a sudden urge to shout "Ciao Bella!" out of the window and gesture a lot?
    I have driven all over Europe, I dont have a different driving style for each country.
    So each country is the same then - despite what you are arguing below.
    What drives you want to pretend they are not?

    Pretend?? You do realise that this is about what the law requires?
    There is no benefit to pretending we are all the same?
    Ah, then in that case you wouldn't mind contributing more towards your state pension than other people.
    What are your views on age and sex of the driver? Are they irrelevant also?

    In my view, actually yes. Competence to drive and years experience, type of car, miles driven in a year. That would be my factors. But the law says different, so I defer. In this case LM were in breach of the DP legislation.

    What exactly is your objection?


  • #33
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    www.nononsense.ie are asking for your Country of birth.

    If you enter say 2 years insurance in your own name and then Irish, you get an online quote. Enter Russia as the country of birth and you get a screen asking for you to ring them. The personal data page then locks so that you cannot change any details.


  • #34
    CoDy1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭CoDy1


    Colonel Sanders wrote: »
    100% incorrect

    You 100% sure?


  • #35
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Colonel Sanders wrote: »
    100% incorrect

    This what you meant?

    http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/surviving-the-recession/eu-outlaws-cheaper-car-insurance-for-women-2561677.html
    But as well as offering "unisex premiums" to men and women, insurers are set to react by pushing up all premiums.


  • #36
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    This item is a load of crap. I don't know much about Insurance, however logic would dictate that there may be numerous factors which dictate the level of premium required for a car insurance quotation. Age, sex, licence, full , provisional, Eu lic , outside Eu, how long the licence is held number of years no claims bonus, number of years driving experience, car, age of car, value, county where you live, annual mileage, occupation, business use, I could go on and on! There are numerous Brokers and Direct companies Selling motorinsurance. I suggest ringing around or asking A broker for advice. I respectfully suggest that each company has different requirements. I really think you are hoping that you have been descriminated against in some way. Ireland is a multiracial society, has been for many years. I don't accept that you have been discriminated against. Are there any other reasons for which you are not getting Insurance?


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭goz83


    delthedriver wrote: »
    This item is a load of crap. I don't know much about Insurance, however logic would dictate that there may be numerous factors which dictate the level of premium required for a car insurance quotation. Age, sex, licence, full , provisional, Eu lic , outside Eu, how long the licence is held number of years no claims bonus, number of years driving experience, car, age of car, value, county where you live, annual mileage, occupation, business use, I could go on and on! There are numerous Brokers and Direct companies Selling motorinsurance. I suggest ringing around or asking A broker for advice. I respectfully suggest that each company has different requirements. I really think you are hoping that you have been descriminated against in some way. Ireland is a multiracial society, has been for many years. I don't accept that you have been discriminated against. Are there any other reasons for which you are not getting Insurance?

    I always wondered why occupation was considered. If your car is only being used to get to work, why does your occupation matter?

    I got inside information that a labourer was the cheapest occupation, so why would an exhausted labourer get cheaper insurance than say, someone working in an office? And what if someone has more than one occupation?


  • #38
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    goz83 wrote: »
    I always wondered why occupation was considered. If your car is only being used to get to work, why does your occupation matter?

    I got inside information that a labourer was the cheapest occupation, so why would an exhausted labourer get cheaper insurance than say, someone working in an office? And what if someone has more than one occupation?

    I imagine a Sales Rep would spend a lot of time on the road and would therefor be more likely to be involved in an accident?


  • #39
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    delthedriver wrote: »
    This item is a load of crap. I don't know much about Insurance, however logic would dictate that there may be numerous factors which dictate the level of premium required for a car insurance quotation. Age, sex, licence, full , provisional, Eu lic , outside Eu, how long the licence is held number of years no claims bonus, number of years driving experience, car, age of car, value, county where you live, annual mileage, occupation, business use, I could go on and on! There are numerous Brokers and Direct companies Selling motorinsurance. I suggest ringing around or asking A broker for advice. I respectfully suggest that each company has different requirements. I really think you are hoping that you have been descriminated against in some way. Ireland is a multiracial society, has been for many years. I don't accept that you have been discriminated against. Are there any other reasons for which you are not getting Insurance?

    Del, could you read the letter from the DPC in my OP again. I made a complaint about discrimination based on where you previously lived - not driving experience
    As this explanation tells us that the insurance company's interest is not
    "residency" but years of experience of driving on the left hand side of the
    road, we advised Liberty Insurance to amend the question accordingly.

    This is insurance company should not have made reference to residency, as it is excessive information and not relevant to the reason it is being asked. Living in a country does not give you driving experience unless you are actually driving.

    Likewise having just discovered that Nononsense.ie actually ask "What is your country of birth?" and refuse to quote you online if they don't like the answer is something I will be raising with the DPC and the Insurance Federation tomorrow.


  • #40
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    delthedriver wrote: »
    I imagine a Sales Rep would spend a lot of time on the road and would therefor be more likely to be involved in an accident?

    I've always wondered about that too...why are say, teachers a lower risk than say, journalists.

    I think they make this stuff up.


  • #41
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    MadsL wrote: »
    Del, could you read the letter from the DPC in my OP again. I made a complaint about discrimination based on where you previously lived - not driving experience



    This is insurance company should not have made reference to residency, as it is excessive information and not relevant to the reason it is being asked. Living in a country does not give you driving experience unless you are actually driving.

    Likewise having just discovered that Nononsense.ie actually ask "What is your country of birth?" and refuse to quote you online if they don't like the answer is something I will be raising with the DPC and the Insurance Federation tomorrow.

    Wishing you well with your endeavours.
    I am curious as to how easy it is for a non-national to get insurance in your home country? I am aware of non-nationals living in Ireland who are driving cars for which they arranged Insurance with Companies here.
    Why are you having such difficulty? How long are you here? How long have you been looking for an Insurance quotation? Has any Insurance Company ever quoted you?
    As I suggested before , contact an Insurance Broker for best advice, as they have access to numerous Insurers


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    delthedriver wrote: »
    Wishing you well with your endeavours.
    I am curious as to how easy it is for a non-national to get insurance in your home country? I am aware of non-nationals living in Ireland who are driving cars for which they arranged Insurance with Companies here.
    Why are you having such difficulty? How long are you here? How long have you been looking for an Insurance quotation? Has any Insurance Company ever quoted you?
    As I suggested before , contact an Insurance Broker for best advice, as they have access to numerous Insurers

    Del, thank you for your best wishes. You are slightly missing my point, as it is not me directly that is having difficulty.

    Insurance companies do however often put absurd requirements on new immigrants, a friend of mine could not get insurance in his own name with my insurance company even though I had named him on my insurance. They claimed as he was not in the country for more than two years they would not insure him. As he was an EU citizen I thought this was entirely unacceptable.

    I'm also shocked that the likes of nononsense.ie think it is acceptable to ask what country you were born in as part of an insurance quote. Utterly irrelevant.


  • #43
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    MadsL wrote: »
    I've always wondered about that too...why are say, teachers a lower risk than say, journalists.

    I think they make this stuff up.

    No idea, perhaps an Insurance Broker may be able to give you mor insight.


  • #44
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    MadsL wrote: »
    Del, thank you for your best wishes. You are slightly missing my point, as it is not me directly that is having difficulty.

    Insurance companies do however often put absurd requirements on new immigrants, a friend of mine could not get insurance in his own name with my insurance company even though I had named him on my insurance. They claimed as he was not in the country for more than two years they would not insure him. As he was an EU citizen I thought this was entirely unacceptable.

    I'm also shocked that the likes of nononsense.ie think it is acceptable to ask what country you were born in as part of an insurance quote. Utterly irrelevant.

    I am sorry to hear of your difficulties
    This seems to be going around in circles.
    So you have insurance after all.
    You also have a named driver on your policy.
    It is your named driver who is having a problem getting Insurance.
    The obvious place to start is by seeking a quotation from your Insurer for your friend to take out a policy in his own name? Have you tried this? if you are getting nowhere I suggest writing to the CEO of the Insurance. Company in question.
    In my opinion I do not believe anyone is trying to discriminate against anybody, I think taking that approach is simply doing More harm than good
    It is my understanding that not all Insurers are members of the IIF.
    As before I suggested seeking advice from an Insurance Broker who should have access to various Insurers and may be able to guide you.Have you tried this?
    Finally, if all of the above fails , which I hope not, you should perhaps consider talking to the Citizens Advice Bureau
    Hope this may assist you
    Best regards


  • #45
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    delthedriver wrote: »
    I am sorry to hear of your difficulties
    This seems to be going around in circles.
    So you have insurance after all.
    You also have a named driver on your policy.
    It is your named driver who is having a problem getting Insurance.
    The obvious place to start is by seeking a quotation from your Insurer for your friend to take out a policy in his own name? Have you tried this? if you are getting nowhere I suggest writing to the CEO of the Insurance. Company in question.
    In my opinion I do not believe anyone is trying to discriminate against anybody, I think taking that approach is simply doing More harm than good
    It is my understanding that not all Insurers are members of the IIF.
    As before I suggested seeking advice from an Insurance Broker who should have access to various Insurers and may be able to guide you.Have you tried this?
    Finally, if all of the above fails , which I hope not, you should perhaps consider talking to the Citizens Advice Bureau
    Hope this may assist you
    Best regards

    Del - I really appreciate the efforts to help - but this isn't about individuals - more about Data Protection Law and how Insurance Companies operate.

    Whilst I really appreciate you taking the time to help, do have a read back through the thread carefully. You will see that it was about me reporting a practice that is prohibited by Data Protection law and not about any one individual.

    But thanks anyway for your best wishes.


  • #46
    CoDy1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭CoDy1


    MadsL wrote: »
    I've always wondered about that too...why are say, teachers a lower risk than say, journalists.

    I think they make this stuff up.

    My guess is a journalist would, by the very nature of the occupation, be on the road alot more than a teacher therefore present a higher risk.


  • #47
    MugMugs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    MadsL wrote: »
    Do you think a foreign national and an Irish national who have both held an Irish licence for three years should be the same risk? If so do you have some studies or actuarial data for that? I'd love to see it. Do you actually believe nationality plays a part in driving ability?
    Where has this come from? At what stage did I state that I have information to support this claim? Tell me, where did I say that?
    Does nationality have a part to play? Yes. UK Roads are quite like our own. I'd lower the risk for a UK driver. Moroccan roads are not like our own. I'd increase the risk for a Moroccan driver. - In my opinion
    MadsL wrote: »
    How is nationality rather than driving history more relevant to the risk?
    See above
    MadsL wrote: »
    If you think winning a case brought against an insurance company to get them to abide by the law of the land is a lose, I don't know what to tell you. Did you go for a long walk with a sign in Cavan recently?
    But you see, that's what I am trying to say to you but you seem to be blinded by your own self belief.
    How have you won? You got them to re phrase a question where they still get their desired response. I will spell it out a bit more for you.

    THEY STILL GET WHAT THEY WANT

    I don't understand the going for a walk in Cavan aspect of your post? Are you asking me if I am a pro Quinn person who was out in support of Sean recently? If so, then I am not, no. I can't stand that man and think that he is a lying cheat.

    Did you ask that question with no relevance to your post in a derogitory way toward me becuase you didn't like what I was saying to you? Do you often attempt to insult people because they disagree with you? Thats a bit sad if it is so. Here's a picture that you can relate to given the above. images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRHQTsYIzPs0bhoSSJsnLIReLHQiyaNBrqGJh-Gild-75jisAfE0LzB0PBAUQ


  • #48
    keithclancy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    This sucks,

    I just gave my NCB Cert to my Dutch Insurance company and there was no problem.

    My Driving license or where I'd driven previously didn't come into the Equation.


  • #49
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    MugMugs wrote: »
    Where has this come from? At what stage did I state that I have information to support this claim? Tell me, where did I say that?

    You said...
    MugMugs wrote: »
    Well working with "risk" daily I can appreciate the variables involved in a non national driving on Irish roads for the first few years. I've seen the consequences of risk. .

    That sounded to me like you had some insight or data on the "consequences of risk"; perhaps you were just being clever and saying that "I drive" in a fancy way.
    Does nationality have a part to play? Yes. UK Roads are quite like our own. I'd lower the risk for a UK driver. Moroccan roads are not like our own. I'd increase the risk for a Moroccan driver. - In my opinion
    Would you increase premiums for a Morrrocan driver even if they had never driven in Morrocco and learned to drive in Ireland? That's the difference that I'm highlighting right there, that insurance companies ask relevant information and not apply inaccurate assumptions to people's premiums.

    To use another example, I cannot give blood because I lived in the UK when vCJD was giving cows mad cow disease. There is no proper way to test it out. But here is the rub of assumption over accuracy. I was vegetarian at the time. So ruling me out by asking about residency misses the fact that I am a lower risk of being a carrier of vCJD.
    But you see, that's what I am trying to say to you but you seem to be blinded by your own self belief.
    You cannot see the difference between

    "How many years have you been resident in the UK or Republic of Ireland"
    and
    "How many years have you been driving in the UK or Republic of Ireland?"

    and you are saying I'm 'blinded by self-belief'. Wow.
    How have you won? You got them to re phrase a question where they still get their desired response. I will spell it out a bit more for you.

    THEY STILL GET WHAT THEY WANT

    I can hear you, but "desired response" is debatable. I'm not privy to the desires of the insurance company. However, the law says that they cannot ask irrelevant questions. I asked the DPC did they think this was irrelevant and they said yes, we think it is irrelevant.
    I don't understand the going for a walk in Cavan aspect of your post? Are you asking me if I am a pro Quinn person who was out in support of Sean recently? If so, then I am not, no. I can't stand that man and think that he is a lying cheat.

    Did you ask that question with no relevance to your post in a derogitory way toward me becuase you didn't like what I was saying to you?
    I asked you that question because the only way I can see that you could defend the insurance company with such vigour is your hinting that you worked in insurance earlier.

    Do you often attempt to insult people because they disagree with you? Thats a bit sad if it is so. Here's a picture that you can relate to given the above. images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRHQTsYIzPs0bhoSSJsnLIReLHQiyaNBrqGJh-Gild-75jisAfE0LzB0PBAUQ

    I didn't insult you, I asked if you supported Quinn that's all. You however have insulted me and I have reported the post.

    Feel free to yell at me some more for asking the Commissioner for Data Protection in Ireland to rule on the law as it is written. Try to understand that this isn't my decision, rather the interpretation of the law.


  • #50
    Bohrio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    MadsL wrote: »
    You said...
    You cannot see the difference between

    "How many years have you been resident in the UK or Republic of Ireland"
    and
    "How many years have you been driving in the UK or Republic of Ireland?"

    and you are saying I'm 'blinded by self-belief'. Wow.

    Actually I see a difference, although I dont really see this an advantage.

    If they are going to take in consideration the number of years as a driver rather than my years as a redident, me, as driver, will be probably the one with more to lose, specially if I have just arrived to this country.

    Now, the question does make more sense but in the end, I think this has worked to their advantage as it will me more likely you will have less years as a driver than as a resident, well, 100% sure you will

    I do appreciate your intentions ;)


  • #51
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Bohrio wrote: »
    Actually I see a difference, although I dont really see this an advantage.

    If they are going to take in consideration the number of years as a driver rather than my years as a redident, me, as driver, will be probably the one with more to lose, specially if I have just arrived to this country.

    Now, the question does make more sense but in the end, I think this has worked to their advantage as it will me more likely you will have less years as a driver than as a resident, well, 100% sure you will

    I do appreciate your intentions ;)

    Thank you for your appreciation :)

    Almost all insurance companies ask about driving experience rather than residency, so this is just getting LM to fall in line with that, so there is no 'advantage' as such; the question was a hangover from the Quinn days.

    However, more seriously, how do you feel about nononsense.ie directly asking "What is your country of Birth?"


  • Advertisement
Advertisement