Why can't we get our th sounds right.

Curly Judge · 18-09-2012 09:29PM #1

Am I the only person in this country who is driven mad by poor pronunciation and diction.
The amount of dis, dat, dese and doze one hears one the airways is getting worse.
Am I missing something or are people who know better just using it in a perverse attempt to sound more "Irish".
Are we breeding a new genus of tirty tree and a turd republicans?
How is it possible to come through a three or four year journalism degree and still sound like the half - wit son of an illiterate bogman?
I know some people regard English as a foreign language but come on, if we are going to speak it at all we should learn to to speak it properly and stop making fools of ourselves at home and abroad.

aujopimur · 18-09-2012 10:34PM

I tink it's called dialect or sumtin like dat

Irish_wolf · 18-09-2012 10:44PM

Because we dont speak english, we speak Hiberno-English. It's a Dialect as the previous poster said, and it's no more right to say tirty tree as it is to say thirty three or firty free.

Dont know why you care really, you know what they mean. Pronunciation changes all the time anyway. 100 years or so ago they'd probably laugh at the way we say things now.

Curly Judge · 19-09-2012 01:25AM

I just find it inelegant and uncultured.
Don't know why, as I didn't have what you might describe as an Oxbridge upbringing, having been born and reared in the Irish Midlands.

franc 91 · 19-09-2012 07:12PM

I wouldn't want to stir up any arguments about it, but I'm sure you'll agree that Irish has an important influence on the way English is spoken in Ireland - and of course the English 'th' sound doesn't exist not only in Irish but not in other European languages either, apart from Greek.

Scortho · 19-09-2012 07:27PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

Am I the only person in this country who is driven mad by poor pronunciation and diction.
The amount of dis, dat, dese and doze one hears one the airways is getting worse.
Am I missing something or are people who know better just using it in a perverse attempt to sound more "Irish".
Are we breeding a new genus of tirty tree and a turd republicans?
How is it possible to come through a three or four year journalism degree and still sound like the half - wit son of an illiterate bogman?
I know some people regard English as a foreign language but come on, if we are going to speak it at all we should learn to to speak it properly and stop making fools of ourselves at home and abroad.

You sound like my ex!

Anyway as others have posted, it's due to our dialect.

few · 19-09-2012 08:45PM

franc 91 wrote: »

I wouldn't want to stir up any arguments about it, but I'm sure you'll agree that Irish has an important influence on the way English is spoken in Ireland - and of course the English 'th' sound doesn't exist not only in Irish but not in other European languages either, apart from Greek.

How about Spanish of Spain?

1:15

Tefral · 19-09-2012 09:20PM

Im living over in london at the moment and the women love our D's instead of our th's.

Embrace it, it might get you laid.

All joking aside though, I know a guy who makes an effort to use the th "correctly" and it sounds like talking is a massive effort for him. Im a "turty tree" person. I would say like the posters above, its just a dialect. In England alot of them sound different like Northerners and Londoners

franc 91 · 20-09-2012 06:49AM

Yes of course you're right - you do get the 'th' sound in Spanish, though I believe it does depend on which dialect of Spanish is spoken.

Yakuza · 20-09-2012 11:26AM

franc 91 wrote: »

Yes of course you're right - you do get the 'th' sound in Spanish, though I believe it does depend on which dialect of Spanish is spoken.

(I didn't watch the above video, cant see YT in work)

In standard (Castillian) Spanish, c followed by a slender vowel (i or e) or z followed by a vowel has the "th" sound -
Cerveza (beer) = "ther vay tha" or zumo (juice) = "thu mo"
whereas coche (car) = "ko chay".

Down south (andalusia) the C is pronounced like it is in English so you'd have "ser vay sa" for beer etc. Most of the explorers that went to South America were from there so that accent is used in that neck of the woods.

Getting back to ourselves, I would describe myself as a Hiberno-English speaker (in terms of construction of phrases, syntax and grammar) but I used standard pronunciation (as would my family and friends). Personally, I find "turty tree and a turd" grating (try listening to Minister Kathleen Lynch in full flight) but I accept its how some people speak and is no less correct than "my" way of speaking.

Curly Judge · 20-09-2012 06:37PM

Yakuza wrote: »

(I didn't watch the above video, cant see YT in work)

In standard (Castillian) Spanish, c followed by a slender vowel (i or e) or z followed by a vowel has the "th" sound -
Cerveza (beer) = "ther vay tha" or zumo (juice) = "thu mo"
whereas coche (car) = "ko chay".

Down south (andalusia) the C is pronounced like it is in English so you'd have "ser vay sa" for beer etc. Most of the explorers that went to South America were from there so that accent is used in that neck of the woods.

Getting back to ourselves, I would describe myself as a Hiberno-English speaker (in terms of construction of phrases, syntax and grammar) but I used standard pronunciation (as would my family and friends). Personally, I find "turty tree and a turd" grating (try listening to Minister Kathleen Lynch in full flight) but I accept its how some people speak and is no less correct than "my" way of speaking.

I'll bow to your expertise on the Spanish question - about which I know very little.
As regards the highlighted part of your post I must respectfully disagree.
In most things in life there are standards and when these standards are ignored a person is entitled to ask if it really matters.
I think it does!
Otherwise why would we bother with grammar or elocution at all?
I have no wish whatsoever to interfere with peoples accents.
One of my favourite radio voices in earlier years was the great Bryan MacMahon.
I could listen to him reading out of the telephone directory and still be entertained.
On a good day he was equal to Richard Burton reading from "Under Milk Wood".
The difference between the two was purely accent.and that difference was made up mostly by inflection .
Pronunciation- to my mind - is an entirely different matter.
The dis, dat, deeze and doze brigade [henceforth to be known as the D squares] may be all right talking in a pub where they can do little harm but they should not be let loose on any form of international forum.
I do hope there are none in the IDA?

N17er · 20-09-2012 07:07PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

half - wit son of an illiterate bogman?
QUOTE]

You'd prefer to sound like a west brit descendant of the landed gentry?

Curly Judge · 20-09-2012 11:11PM

N17er wrote: »

Curly Judge wrote: »

half - wit son of an illiterate bogman?
QUOTE]

You'd prefer to sound like a west brit descendant of the landed gentry?

From which of the two sections listed above do you hail ?

Yakuza · 21-09-2012 09:29AM

N17er wrote: »

You'd prefer to sound like a west brit descendant of the landed gentry?

Curly Judge wrote: »

half - wit son of an illiterate bogman?

It would appear both of you have opposing sets of baggage. I speak like neither of the above two stereotypes.

I should probably refine my post to say "but I grudgingly accept its how some people speak and is no less correct than "my" way of speaking."

Accents / dialects / creoles are pretty much a feature of most languages that I have any experience with. "Dis and Dat" isn't confined to Ireland - you'll hear it in American cities as well, and in Laandaahn you'll hear "vis and vat".

It's not something I can change on a global scale, so I don't spend my time worrying about it - all I can do is speak the way I do and watch my kids speaking the same way

100% agree on Richard Burton's voice - what a timbre that man had! I remember hearing the prologue to the War of the Worlds as a child and thought "Wow, what a voice"

odds_on · 22-09-2012 05:47AM

I think it might be something to do with the age of the listener. I also find myself thinking that the pronunciation in Ireland is getting worse, especially programme hosts on the radio. I put it down to getting older and being less tolerant.

And having just returned to Ireland after nearly 15 years teaching English abroad, I seem to have forgotten how the Irish pronounce many words. It's just another part of not hearing any English spoken by native speakers.

who the fug · 22-09-2012 06:10AM

What ever, english is a broad church and Dis and turty are just as acceptable as what Geordies Jocks Cockneys, criminals(Aussies) and Boers speak.

tac foley · 22-09-2012 07:07PM

My late father was from Cork, and spoke all his life with an accent that you could use to sole your boots. He was one of the disparaged 'D-Squares' so patronisingly mentioned above. He also said the 'aZoo' and 'fillums' and 'fudgies' for knick-knacks, and my wife, at that time my fiancée, couldn't understand a word he uttered - she is Welsh, BTW, but has vitually no accent from that side of the border.

I grew up as near accentless as is possible to be, in a house where four or five languages were spoken on a daily basis, so I love to hear an Irish voice, in whatever accent it comes in. Living outside Ireland [apart from holidays] as I have done all my life, the arrival of my last Sergeant Chief Clerk, who came from Ballsbridge, was something that made my last two years of service a lot more fun than it had been up to then, as he taught me 'his' Irish.

So those of you who say 'dese', 'dat' and 'dose', please carry on. Do you say 'fillums'? That's great by me. Do you say 'dat yoke'? Great.

Don't let snobbishness and a mistaken sense of identity take it away from you - as the man said, it's NOT English that you're speaking , it's Hiberno-English. Snobs need to listen to Mr O'Briain ruling the TV panel games over here, and scoff at HIM and his version of English.

tac

odds_on · 22-09-2012 09:20PM

When I was a little lad, my mother was always correcting me for saying "fillums".

Curly Judge · 23-09-2012 01:41AM

tac foley wrote: »

My late father was from Cork, and spoke all his life with an accent that you could use to sole your boots. He was one of the disparaged 'D-Squares' so patronisingly mentioned above. He also said the 'aZoo' and 'fillums' and 'fudgies' for knick-knacks, and my wife, at that time my fiancée, couldn't understand a word he uttered - she is Welsh, BTW, but has vitually no accent from that side of the border.

I grew up as near accentless as is possible to be, in a house where four or five languages were spoken on a daily basis, so I love to hear an Irish voice, in whatever accent it comes in. Living outside Ireland [apart from holidays] as I have done all my life, the arrival of my last Sergeant Chief Clerk, who came from Ballsbridge, was something that made my last two years of service a lot more fun than it had been up to then, as he taught me 'his' Irish.

So those of you who say 'dese', 'dat' and 'dose', please carry on. Do you say 'fillums'? That's great by me. Do you say 'dat yoke'? Great.

Don't let snobbishness and a mistaken sense of identity take it away from you - as the man said, it's NOT English that you're speaking , it's Hiberno-English. Snobs need to listen to Mr O'Briain ruling the TV panel games over here, and scoff at HIM and his version of English.

tac

Sorry to have upset you so much!
In the late 1960's I worked in London for a predominantly English staffed outfit.
One of my colleagues was from Stamullen in Co. Meath and was a very in your face type republican.
His English fellow workers didn't know what to make of him and I thought his attitude was somewhat inappropriate seeing as he was making a good living among them.
What saved him was that he was very good at his job and a diligent time keeper.
One night at a works party he struck up "Boolavogue" in a wonderful bell like voice and brought the house down. The Brits like a good song, well sung, as much as anyone even if it is having a go at them.
If he had stopped there he would have been a hero but he then started into the Bobby Darren hit, "Things".

"Every night I sit here by my window.
Staring at my lonely avenue.
Watching lovers holding hands and laughing".

So far so good, and we were all bopping back and forth and trying not to spill our beer.
Next minute it all started to go downhill:

And tinking about the tings we used to do.

Chorus

Tink about tings like a walk in the park.
Tings... like a kiss in the dark.
Tings... like a lovers vow.
Tings... that we don't do now
I'm tinking about the tings we used to do.

The gufaws could be heard all the way to Charing Cross.

If you work abroad in an English speaking country, [and many of us are forced to do so nowadays] my advice would be to learn to pronounce your th's properly if you want to be taken seriously.

P. Breathnach · 23-09-2012 07:42AM

In Lunnun, inni'?

Should have been Fink abaht fings...

tac foley · 24-09-2012 08:11AM

Curly Judge wrote: »

Sorry to have upset you so much!.......If you work abroad in an English speaking country, [and many of us are forced to do so nowadays] my advice would be to learn to pronounce your th's properly if you want to be taken seriously.

1. I'm not upset, just saddened that an Irishman gets castigated for speaking English with his native Irish accent. I would give years of my life to hear my dad speaking with his mighty Cork accent. But he died in 1971.

2. I think you'll find that Ireland is an English-speaking country, disregarding for a moment the very small part of the population that actually speak Irish either as their first language or as part of their employment. I'd be willing to bet my next month's pension that very few of the 'new Irish' from Poland, Latvia or Botswana actually speak a work of Irish. Moreoever, for the most part, THEY have accents, too.

3. Having an inferiority complex about your manner of speaking in your own country is one thing, but it's a mite degrading to read that an Irishman is encouraging other Irishmen to try and sound English, when 50% of the population of the UK also have regional accents that are broadly incomprehensible from one end to the other.

5. Imagine listening to the Dubliners singing in 'cut-glass received English' - a ridiculous notion. We love them BECAUSE they had those accents that you seem to intent on improving!:D

tac

tac foley · 24-09-2012 08:17AM

who the fug wrote: »

What ever, english is a broad church and Dis and turty are just as acceptable as what Geordies Jocks Cockneys, criminals(Aussies) and Boers speak.

Ahem, just like to point out that Geordies and Jocks are ostensibly either English [Geordies]or British [Jocks], and their accents are part of their lives.

Boers were not, and are not now, either British or English, but mostly of Dutch or Huguenot ancestry - English is not their first language, or for many of them, a language that they use in their everyday lives.

tac

slowburner · 28-09-2012 07:37AM

I worked for an awfully, awfully firm in London many years ago, and when I started there I thought I was pronouncing my "th's", very well.
But despite my best efforts I was continuously ribbed about it.
Thinking about it, it's more than likely a product of the fact that there are so many subtle inflections of the way "t" is pronounced in Irish.
If "Tá siad ag teacht", for example, is pronounced with the t's and d as is correct in English - it just sounds ridiculous.

Anyway, that's what I told my colleagues...but I wanted to know in return why they cannot pronounce "r" at the end of a word.
Listen carefully to one of the many ads for "heh ceh products, which nourish and shine".

Which reminds me of the English lisp (bwush, Wupert, Jonathan Woss etc.) - I don't think I've ever heard an Irish person with such a lisp.

franc 91 · 28-09-2012 08:35AM

I remember sometime ago a discussion on another forum which caters for people like me - among others - who aren't Irish and are faced with the daunting task of trying pronounce Irish correctly. The 't' in ort for example or the 'r' at the end of ceathair. Here in France the t and d tend to be pronounced softly, shall we say, so that does help, I suppose. I said that having to explain to English speakers how to pronounce a soft t in French, that it is a 't' that's ashamed of itself and is trying to become a 'd' - so I'm assuming that it would be similar in Irish. I was asked in the first pub/petrol station when we got off the boat at Rosslare many years ago, from what part of Ireland I was from as he couldn't place my brogue. I was suitably flattered of course, but I had to tell him that I wasn't at all Irish. When I lived in England, a soft Irish accent was considered pleasant to hear.

two wheels good · 21-10-2012 07:13PM

Irish_wolf wrote: »

Because we dont speak english, we speak Hiberno-English. It's a Dialect as the previous poster said, and it's no more right to say tirty tree as it is to say thirty three or firty free.

Dont know why you care really, you know what they mean. Pronunciation changes all the time anyway. 100 years or so ago they'd probably laugh at the way we say things now.

That sounds like a complacent cop-out. We can still keep this treasured (by some posters here) dialect and still use "received pronunciation". The dialect is also composed the idioms and accent.

Proper/received pronunciation aids understanding and communication. Listening to "dis , dat dese and dose" is distracting from the message conveyed and it sounds sloppy and careless.

Good diction\pronounciation has nothing to do with being more Oxbridge or west brit or landed gentry. Listen to any of the RTE Radio 1 well-spoken presenters - and there are quite few. Do they sound somehow less Irish because they know how to handle a 'th'?

pickarooney · 22-10-2012 08:20AM

two wheels good wrote: »

That sounds like a complacent cop-out. We can still keep this treasured (by some posters here) dialect and still use "received pronunciation". The dialect is also composed the idioms and accent.

No you can't. Received pronunciation is by definition an English accent. It would sound ludicrous to use Hiberno-English idioms with a BBC accent.

two wheels good · 22-10-2012 09:32AM

pickarooney wrote: »

No you can't. Received pronunciation is by definition an English accent. It would sound ludicrous to use Hiberno-English idioms with a BBC accent.

Maybe ludicrous , certainly comedic potential.
"Received pronunciation": Definition - the accent of standard Southern British English.
Apologies for my misunderstanding of the term.

However my point stands: pronouncing a 'th' correctly does not preclude speaking in an Irish regional accent. For example Pat Kenny, speaking on the radio at the moment. Nothing ludicrous about his use of idioms.

Now I'm trying to think of a rural speaker saying something that would sounds ludicrous just because it pronounces 'th'... Feel free to suggest something.

two wheels good · 22-10-2012 12:33PM

tac foley wrote: »

So those of you who say 'dese', 'dat' and 'dose', please carry on. Do you say 'fillums'? That's great by me. Do you say 'dat yoke'? Great.

Don't let snobbishness and a mistaken sense of identity take it away from you - as the man said, it's NOT English that you're speaking , it's Hiberno-English. Snobs need to listen to Mr O'Briain ruling the TV panel games over here, and scoff at HIM and his version of English.
tac

Please don't carry on - especially if you are in public life, a journalist, a broadcaster, a politician, any regular public speaker. If so, it is in your interests - and mine if I have to listen to you - to make an effort to learn some proper diction and pronunciation.

Dara O'Briain - a suitable example. Irish accent and idioms, sometimes uses "th", sometimes "d". If he was to use "th" always he wouldn't suffer any perceived identity change by his audience or accusations of snobbishness. Would he?

odds_on · 22-10-2012 01:38PM

pickarooney wrote: »

No you can't. Received pronunciation is by definition an English accent. It would sound ludicrous to use Hiberno-English idioms with a BBC accent.

A slightly lower form of the “posh accent” has been named “Received Standard English”. Eton or Harrow College students whose accents are from their locality acquire this “new accent”. It also applies to students who attend Oxford and Cambridge Universities.

Seanchai · 22-10-2012 01:53PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

Am I the only person in this country who is driven mad by poor pronunciation and diction.
The amount of dis, dat, dese and doze one hears one the airways is getting worse.
Am I missing something or are people who know better just using it in a perverse attempt to sound more "Irish".
Are we breeding a new genus of tirty tree and a turd republicans?
How is it possible to come through a three or four year journalism degree and still sound like the half - wit son of an illiterate bogman?
I know some people regard English as a foreign language but come on, if we are going to speak it at all we should learn to to speak it properly and stop making fools of ourselves at home and abroad.

Tut, tut. Amount v. number

Bannasidhe · 22-10-2012 01:57PM

pickarooney wrote: »

No you can't. Received pronunciation is by definition an English accent. It would sound ludicrous to use Hiberno-English idioms with a BBC accent.

Why not?

I actually did it on a BBC TV programme.

It was myself and a Scot speaking. I have a Cork 'lilt' but still can say 'th', 'modern', 'film', 'Italy, etc with no problem - he has a Scots (Ayr/Dumfries to be precise) accent but can do likewise. My 'turn of phrase' is Irish, my accent is - for want of a better term - middle class Cork, my Pronunciation is 'standard' English with a hint of Irish vowel lengthening.

pickarooney · 22-10-2012 02:08PM

Your ability/willingness/propensity to pronounce your TH/H/W/dark L sounds is irrelevant. A Cork/Ayrshire accent is not RP (both are rhotic, for starters), nor are any of the thousands of other accents where TH is pronounced as [θ]/[ð]. RP is not something that should necessarily be aspired to, not any other accent something to be ashamed of. Only about a quarter of a percent of native English speakers have that accent; the rest of us get along just fine without it.

Bannasidhe · 22-10-2012 02:40PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Your ability/willingness/propensity to pronounce your TH/H/W/dark L sounds is irrelevant. A Cork/Ayrshire accent is not RP (both are rhotic, for starters), nor are any of the thousands of other accents where TH is pronounced as [θ]/[ð]. RP is not something that should necessarily be aspired to, not any other accent something to be ashamed of. Only about a quarter of a percent of native English speakers have that accent; the rest of us get along just fine without it.

No - it's not irrelevant. You stated that ' Received pronunciation is by definition an English accent' - I do not have an English accent but I do employ 'received' pronunciation.

pickarooney · 22-10-2012 02:44PM

Why the quote marks around received? Do you know what the term actually means?

Bannasidhe · 22-10-2012 02:50PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Why the quote marks around received? Do you know what the term actually means?

Yes.

Do you know it is possible to employ diction while not also having an estuary English accent?

P. Breathnach · 22-10-2012 03:17PM

Seanchai wrote: »

Tut, tut. Amount v. number

It's bad form to pick up on another poster's grammar, spelling, or language usage unless invited to do so by that poster. It's worse when one picks up on a correct usage and suggests that it is wrong.

P. Breathnach · 22-10-2012 03:34PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No - it's not irrelevant. You stated that ' Received pronunciation is by definition an English accent' - I do not have an English accent but I do employ 'received' pronunciation.

I think you misunderstand RP: it is by definition an English accent.

There exists an accent of the Irish educated middle class. Other than having a general "Irish" quality, it does not have easily-detectable regional markers, and speakers tend not to substitute "d" sounds for "th" sounds; neither do they substitute "sh" for "t" (as in saying "thash" for "that"). Some broadcasters use such an accent: Pat Kenny, Philip Bouchier-Hayes, and Terry Wogan come to mind. Perhaps we need to establish a term: Hiberno-English Received Pronunciation (HERP).

[Some of the pronunciations that bother people who are posting here are carried over from Irish.]

Bannasidhe · 22-10-2012 03:48PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think you misunderstand RP: it is by definition an English accent.

There exists an accent of the Irish educated middle class. Other than having a general "Irish" quality, it does not have easily-detectable regional markers, and speakers tend not to substitute "d" sounds for "th" sounds; neither do they substitute "sh" for "t" (as in saying "thash" for "that"). Some broadcasters use such an accent: Pat Kenny, Philip Bouchier-Hayes, and Terry Wogan come to mind. Perhaps we need to establish a term: Hiberno-English Received Pronunciation (HERP).

[Some of the pronunciations that bother people who are posting here are carried over from Irish.]

My objection is to a perceptible undertone that failure to 'dis/dat/doze/dees/and dem' is 'Anglo' and therefore 'not Irish'. It is perfectly possible to speak correctly and have a 'regional' i.e non Estuary English accent.

I am aware of the origins and am guilty myself of the 'inside in' (isteach san) but to be honest I doubt if many people who fail to pronounce 'TH', for example, speak Irish as their first language - or at all - so there is really no reason for the pronunciation of sounds in Irish to impact so much on our ability to correctly pronounce those sounds in English. It cannot be compared, as seems to be happening here, to for example Native Japanese speakers who later learn English having problems with 'R'. The Irish are native English speakers as for the vast majority of us English is not only our first language, it is our only language.

pickarooney · 22-10-2012 04:24PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My objection is to a perceptible undertone that failure to 'dis/dat/doze/dees/and dem' is 'Anglo' and therefore 'not Irish'. It is perfectly possible to speak correctly and have a 'regional' i.e non Estuary English accent.

I am aware of the origins and am guilty myself of the 'inside in' (isteach san) but to be honest I doubt if many people who fail to pronounce 'TH', for example, speak Irish as their first language - or at all - so there is really no reason for the pronunciation of sounds in Irish to impact so much on our ability to correctly pronounce those sounds in English. It cannot be compared, as seems to be happening here, to for example Native Japanese speakers who later learn English having problems with 'R'. The Irish are native English speakers as for the vast majority of us English is not only our first language, it is our only language.

I don't think Estuary English means what you think it means either. What's your criteria for what is the correct pronunciation of sounds? RP English doesn't have R sounds at the ends of words, generally speaking. Is it fair to say that anyone who does is mispronouncing his Rs? Same for your L sounds. Do you accept that using a light L where a British speaker would use a dark one makes you wrong? And your diphthongs, do they all line up with the Queen 's English or do you allow yourself some variance while still maintaining your diction is correct?

P. Breathnach · 22-10-2012 05:47PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

... I doubt if many people who fail to pronounce 'TH', for example, speak Irish as their first language - or at all - so there is really no reason for the pronunciation of sounds in Irish to impact so much on our ability to correctly pronounce those sounds in English. ..

The use of dis, dat, dese, and dose is particularly common in parts of Dublin, so it is hardly associated with people whose first language is Irish - or even whose relatively recent ancestors were Irish speakers. Just as our syntax in English reflects a Gaelic past that might be a few generations distant, so also do our English pronunciations.

I'm also a bit bothered about the idea of "correct" pronunciation. Who is the arbiter of that? I have pronunciation preferences, and if you heard me speak you might guess that I am Irish, middle class, educated, and you might not be sure in what part of Ireland I spent my formative years. But I cavil at the idea that my speech is better or more correct than that of people who speak in ways that differ from mine.

Bannasidhe · 22-10-2012 07:14PM

It's quite simple - in English 'this' is not correctly pronounced 'dis' nor is the Cockney 'fis' correct.
I think that is is not unreasonable to suggest that those who work in broadcasting should make the effort to pronounce words correctly, which is what the OP was talking about.

I too shudder when I hear 'In de midlands dere was tree hundred millimeters of rain.' but not as much as when I hear RTÉ Southern correspondent's nasal tones.

pickarooney · 22-10-2012 08:10PM

It's only simple because you've got a pre-conceived idea of what is acceptable and what isn't. Your preferences don't reflect anything other than your opinion. I've already asked you a couple of times to clarify your position on other vowels and consonants for consistency's sake but no reply so far.

Bannasidhe · 22-10-2012 08:23PM

pickarooney wrote: »

It's only simple because you've got a pre-conceived idea of what is acceptable and what isn't. Your preferences don't reflect anything other than your opinion. I've already asked you a couple of times to clarify your position on other vowels and consonants for consistency's sake but no reply so far.

We all have a pre-conceived idea of how each letter sounds and how combinations of letters sound. It's the whole basis of how a phonetic alphabet works.
The sounds vary according to the language or dialect being spoken - so while in English we all have a pre-conceived idea of how 'V' and 'W' are pronounced which is completely opposite to how a native German speaker would believe they should be pronounced. But were that German to tell is they were 'wisiting their wolks in Wentry willage' we, as English speakers, would consider this wrong.

In the English language there exists a pre-conceived sound that is produced when the letter T is placed before the letter H and that sound is not 'D'.

pickarooney · 22-10-2012 08:35PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We all have a pre-conceived idea of how each letter sounds and how combinations of letters sound. It's the whole basis of how a phonetic alphabet works.
The sounds vary according to the language or dialect being spoken - so while in English we all have a pre-conceived idea of how 'V' and 'W' are pronounced which is completely opposite to how a native German speaker would believe they should be pronounced. But were that German to tell is they were 'wisiting their wolks in Wentry willage' we, as English speakers, would consider this wrong.

In the English language there exists a pre-conceived sound that is produced when the letter T is placed before the letter H and that sound is not 'D'.

Even in RP that combination has three possible pronunciations. Irish speakers of English pick from at least five.

P. Breathnach · 22-10-2012 08:56PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Even in RP that combination has three possible pronunciations. Irish speakers of English pick from at least five.

And then you have the problem of aural discrimination. Some people are genuinely incapable of distinguishing between two sounds that others can easily distinguish. That is (inevitably) closely linked with our capacity to produce sounds.
- "You should pronounce it that."
- "But I do pronounce it dat."

Our capacity for aural discrimination and phoneme production is largely determined in early childhood (before and during the time we learn to speak) and is very much influenced by the speech patterns that we experience at that stage of our lives.

two wheels good · 22-10-2012 09:17PM

This thread seems to have gone off on an esoteric tangent.

I'd like to add a final point in response to the posters who believe there is no "right or wrong approach". Maybe so, but I would say there is a " better or worse approach"

I have a friend, a primary school teacher who makes a concerted effort to correct her pupils pronunciation and grammer - 'three' not 'tree' etc and also 'I seen', I done, 'them books'. (And seems to do it in good humoured manner drawing a tree on the board instead of 3. No teacher! Laughs all round.)

To those who advocate the approach to pronunciation of "no right or wrong way" I ask: Do you think my friend should abandon her efforts? (Should she also allow the bad grammar go unchecked?)
If your child was in her class would you be happy for the child to go uncorrected?

If you agree that this teacher's corrections are appropriate then you are, in effect, admitting there is a 'better' pronunciation.

pickarooney · 22-10-2012 10:29PM

two wheels good wrote: »

This thread seems to have gone off on an esoteric tangent.

I'd like to add a final point in response to the posters who believe there is no "right or wrong approach". Maybe so, but I would say there is a " better or worse approach"

I have a friend, a primary school teacher who makes a concerted effort to correct her pupils pronunciation and grammer - 'three' not 'tree' etc and also 'I seen', I done, 'them books'. (And seems to do it in good humoured manner drawing a tree on the board instead of 3. No teacher! Laughs all round.)

To those who advocate the approach to pronunciation of "no right or wrong way" I ask: Do you think my friend should abandon her efforts? (Should she also allow the bad grammar go unchecked?)
If your child was in her class would you be happy for the child to go uncorrected?

If you agree that this teacher's corrections are appropriate then you are, in effect, admitting there is a 'better' pronunciation.

Does she do the same with kids who don't aspirate their WH sounds also, drawing a wight when they mean white?

P. Breathnach · 23-10-2012 10:04AM

two wheels good wrote: »

...
To those who advocate the approach to pronunciation of "no right or wrong way"

I am not sure that anybody here is taking that position. Some of us (well, this one of us, but I think I am not alone) are unwilling to take the position that a dialect pronunciation is a "wrong" pronunciation.

I ask: Do you think my friend should abandon her efforts?

Yes, if it involves declaring the child's home dialect to be invalid or inferior.

(Should she also allow the bad grammar go unchecked?)

Red herring.

If your child was in her class would you be happy for the child to go uncorrected?

I'm not at that life stage, so I'll take that as a hypothetical question. I would be unhappy if a teacher disapproved of the accent my child acquired at home and said that it was "wrong".

If you agree that this teacher's corrections are appropriate then you are, in effect, admitting there is a 'better' pronunciation.

Just one better pronunciation? I don't have a particularly acute ear for accents, but I can identify several types of generic Irish middle class accent.

two wheels good · 26-10-2012 10:04PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Does she do the same with kids who don't aspirate their WH sounds also, drawing a wight when they mean white?

I don't know. I'll ask her. Personally, I'd say it might a lower priority and sometimes best to judge when pushing the corrections too much may be counter-productive.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I am not sure that anybody here is taking that position. Some of us (well, this one of us, but I think I am not alone) are unwilling to take the position that a dialect pronunciation is a "wrong" pronunciation.

Yes, if it involves declaring the child's home dialect to be invalid or inferior.

Red herring.

I'm not at that life stage, so I'll take that as a hypothetical question. I would be unhappy if a teacher disapproved of the accent my child acquired at home and said that it was "wrong".

Just one better pronunciation? I don't have a particularly acute ear for accents, but I can identify several types of generic Irish middle class accent.

Once again I say: This has nothing to do with accent - or identity. It is a matter of pronunciation and clarity.

I'm expect there are some parents in the class who are very pleased to hear of the teacher's diligence in an area all too often overlooked.

A children realising its parent doesn't know everything shouldn't be a bad thing. A family aspiring for better (that word again) things for the children is to be encouraged.

I don't think the bad grammar , 'I seen, I done' etc is a red herring at all. Seems part of the (so precious) dialect to me.

Stheno · 26-10-2012 10:17PM

Curly Judge wrote: »

I just find it inelegant and uncultured.
Don't know why, as I didn't have what you might describe as an Oxbridge upbringing, having been born and reared in the Irish Midlands.

N17er wrote: »

Curly Judge wrote: »

half - wit son of an illiterate bogman?
QUOTE]

You'd prefer to sound like a west brit descendant of the landed gentry?

I'm also from the Midlands, and after years of working with non Irish people, and working abroad, I've altered my language to get rid of colloquial english and to speak very clearly so as not to confuse people or have a lack of understanding.

I probably do sound very "BBC news" presenter, but it means people understand what I say and I don't have to stop and explain.

DesperateDan · 26-10-2012 10:20PM

I'm scottish and my girlfriend is Irish, I'm always making fun of her for pronouncing stuff wrong / different to what I know.

A couple things I've noticed apart from the obvious lack of 'th's etc. is that her and MANY Irish people weirdly pronounce the word cheddar wrong. They say cheather (like feather). And instead of the river Thames being pronounced Tems it's always pronounced Thems - like the e sound is right, but no need to bother fixing the first half of the word so they leave in the h. (Although I get that one is understandable because it's just spelt wrong to begin with!)

I know those are weird words that don't come up much I just found it interesting that people stick in 'th's there when there is none, and it's usually the opposite

Others I know say 'agen' instead of against - although I understand saying 'kittle' instead of 'kettle' like a country bumpkin, but dropping whole syllables is weird to me! (There's actually loads more I just can't think of any right now!)

Why can't we get our th sounds right.

Comments