Tae Kwon Do doesn't work ??

BJJ_Expert · 13-02-2013 05:37PM #1

Judge for yourselves -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrYmRS59uK8

Peetrik · 13-02-2013 05:42PM

It does.

Its just that there are other things that are easier to learn that worm much better.

BJJ_Expert · 13-02-2013 05:50PM

Peetrik wrote: »

It does.

Its just that there are other things that are easier to learn that worm much better.

Fair point, what someone can learn in a year of BJJ is easyily enough to beat the average man on the ground. Boxing which has few techniques but is obviously very practical.

pauly58 · 13-02-2013 05:57PM

What will work in a ring & what will work in a pub car park in the dark are two completely different things.

Taekwon Do & most Karate styles are only for sport.

Peetrik · 13-02-2013 06:13PM

pauly58 wrote: »

What will work in a ring & what will work in a pub car park in the dark are two completely different things.

Depends completely how its trained. A lot of the stuff that is advertised as being specifically for pub car parks or 'da streetz' is far less effective the plenty of ring sports due to it being trained in an ineffective way. (not tested on many different live fully resisting opponents etc)

pauly58 wrote: »

Taekwon Do & most Karate styles are only for sport.

True enough for the most part, again depends on how its trained.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 13-02-2013 08:50PM

pauly58 wrote: »

What will work in a ring & what will work in a pub car park in the dark are two completely different things.

Taekwon Do & most Karate styles are only for sport.

Rubbish, pure & simple.

Absolute baloney. And I'm basing that on a lot of personal experience.

Do you really believe a head shot like that wouldn't work, or couldn't be performed outside the ring?.

The problem with MMA, BJJ and Krav Maga in the last ten years (in this country) is that there is a lot of young lads who feel the wheel has been reinvented.

I've worked the doors with some brilliant guys with solid TKD back grounds over the last twenty years.

_oveless_ · 13-02-2013 09:37PM

BJJ_Expert wrote: »

Judge for yourselves -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrYmRS59uK8

as far as I know he's a Tiger Schulman student, so that's most likely a karate kick rather than tae kwon do.

13-02-2013 09:41PM

XYZ does work

XYZ doesn't work

Depends on so many things.

The better anyone gets at self defence etc etc the more they should realise how vulnerable they are imo

BJJ_Expert · 14-02-2013 10:27AM

pauly58 wrote: »

What will work in a ring & what will work in a pub car park in the dark are two completely different things.

Taekwon Do & most Karate styles are only for sport.

To a degreee I understand your point i.e. the flying reverese spinning kicks etc

But TKD and Karate aren't just all about flashy Matrix movie type of stuff that could only be tried in the saftey of a competition with a ref. Their's plenty of what I'd call bread and butter kicking and punching, and then of course it's down to the experience and ability of the guy himself. A man who spars and punches and kicks bags 3/4 times a week wouldn't be a walkover for anyone regardless of his style. I mentioned how boxing is very practical, however if the boxer has very little experience in dealing with kicks, well placed kicks from a Karate or TKDer could well be game over pretty soon.

reganreggie · 14-02-2013 11:58AM

I think his name is Johnny Dargan from SBG whos got a TKD background and is planting fellas regularly

cowzerp · 14-02-2013 12:04PM

BJJ_Expert wrote: »

i mentioned how boxing is very practical, however if the boxer has very little experience in dealing with kicks, well placed kicks from a Karate or TKDer could well be game over pretty soon.

Not likely!

Most people are windbags, so with any form if hitting people you should win most street situations!

Even most local hard men are usually just lads who have never got a good slap and go into shock when they do, wheter it's a solid windmill punch, spinning jumping turning kick or whatever

At the end of the day, the best things are the ones Mma use because they are tried and tested, Boxing, Thai boxing, Wrestling, Bjj, Judo outside these not much else is trained.

Craptacular · 14-02-2013 12:24PM

cowzerp wrote: »

At the end of the day, the best things are the ones Mma use because they are tried and tested, Boxing, Thai boxing, Wrestling, Bjj, Judo outside these not much else is trained.

Is there really no comparison between kicks used in MMA and those used in TKD or karate? A simple front kick or roundhouse can't be that different between the various styles.

Tim_Murphy · 14-02-2013 01:15PM

Craptacular wrote: »

Is there really no comparison between kicks used in MMA and those used in TKD or karate? A simple front kick or roundhouse can't be that different between the various styles.

They are pretty different actually. They are trained for a different purpose so then not surprisingly you get a different result.

Plastikman_eire · 14-02-2013 01:22PM

Billy White Faun wrote: »

Rubbish, pure & simple.

Absolute baloney. And I'm basing that on a lot of personal experience.

Do you really believe a head shot like that wouldn't work, or couldn't be performed outside the ring?.
.

I dunno, a kick like that would be pretty tough to pull off in a pair of jeans*

*Chuck Norris endorsed jeans with patented stretchy crotch are, of course, the exception.

Peetrik · 14-02-2013 02:03PM

Craptacular wrote: »

Is there really no comparison between kicks used in MMA and those used in TKD or karate? A simple front kick or roundhouse can't be that different between the various styles.

As Tim said, completely different, TKD and (most?) Karate styles (except kyokushin) kick with the foot itself whereas MMA fighters use Thai kicks which strike with the shin. Plus kicking to score a point and kicking to do damage are entirely different things

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

I dunno, a kick like that would be pretty tough to pull off in a pair of jeans*

As BJJexpert said, there are plenty of bread and butter techniques from TKD or Karate that would be easy to pull off in a pair of jeans.
They can be effective, but just in my opinion there are other things that are both quicker and easier to learn that are more effective.

Craptacular · 14-02-2013 02:52PM

Peetrik wrote: »

As Tim said, completely different, TKD and (most?) Karate styles (except kyokushin) kick with the foot itself whereas MMA fighters use Thai kicks which strike with the shin. Plus kicking to score a point and kicking to do damage are entirely different things.

MMA fighters also use a front kick which strikes with the foot (Anderson Silva's KO of Vitor Belfort stands out there.) Also doesn't Muay Thai strike with the foot when using the teep?

Kicking to score a point and kicking to do damage are differences in training, not in technique.

Craptacular · 14-02-2013 02:56PM

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

They are pretty different actually. They are trained for a different purpose so then not surprisingly you get a different result.

Yes, they are trained for a different purpose but the core techniques can't be that different. Lift knee, extend foot.

runawaybishop · 14-02-2013 03:16PM

Some people will be ineffective no matter what training method is used. Techniques are just facilitators for most* people. You are either able to handle yourself, or you are not.

* not all.

Peetrik · 14-02-2013 03:30PM

Craptacular wrote: »

MMA fighters also use a front kick which strikes with the foot (Anderson Silva's KO of Vitor Belfort stands out there.) Also doesn't Muay Thai strike with the foot when using the teep?

Kicking to score a point and kicking to do damage are differences in training, not in technique.

Craptacular wrote: »

Yes, they are trained for a different purpose but the core techniques can't be that different. Lift knee, extend foot.

Meh, I'd hardly call teeps a strike, yeah they can be used as one before you go hunting out clips of Buakaw punishing someone with teeps but they are more to control range/unbalance your opponent. Not trying to 'win' the debate just telling you what they are used for in Thai.

The core techniques are utterly and completely different, life knee and extend foot in a snappy motion is exactly how to do a rubbish kick with no power or follow through.

runawaybishop wrote: »

Some people will be ineffective no matter what training method is used. Techniques are just facilitators for most* people. You are either able to handle yourself, or you are not.

This is just bollox. The complete opposite is true. You have talent or you dont, but training is what makes someone able to fight or not.

runawaybishop · 14-02-2013 03:33PM

Peetrik wrote: »

This is just bollox. The complete opposite is true. You have talent or you dont, but training is what makes someone able to fight or not.

I disagree, the fight or flight instinct is very fundamental and operates at a base level that training doesn't interact with.

Peetrik · 14-02-2013 03:34PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

I disagree, the fight or flight instinct is very fundamental and operates at a base level that training doesn't interact with.

Haha oh I get it... you're trolling. Took me a second

runawaybishop · 14-02-2013 03:36PM

Peetrik wrote: »

Haha oh I get it... you're trolling. Took me a second

Haha, i get it. You call people trolls if they have a different point of view to you. How original.

Peetrik · 14-02-2013 03:40PM

Well you're either trolling or so wrong its funny. Either way, best of luck to you

runawaybishop · 14-02-2013 03:42PM

Martial arts are facilitators. They improve and assist underlying abilities, teach discipline etc. They don't turn a wimp into a badass.

twowheelsonly · 14-02-2013 03:45PM

Whatever the differences between fighting styles and what will and won't work on the street the main advantage that a 'trained' fighter of any discipline should have is what I call a 'fighting brain'.
Time spent sparring in the gym/dojo/whatever will stand to you on the street with regards to assessing situations and assessing how to deal with them. The techniques then used should almost be instinctive. Just because XYZ is your favourite and most effective technique in sparring doesn't mean that it's going to be the best on the street or in a small crowded space.
A well honed 'Fighting Brain' is as valuable a tool as any physical technique and all fighting styles in my experience instill this in you.

Any of you that do or have worked on doors will be familiar with the 'Big Strong Ox', the 'Muscle Bound Gym Bunny' and the 'Martial Artist'. 100 time out of 100 I'd employ the martial artist purely for his superior thinking in hairy situations.

Tim_Murphy · 14-02-2013 03:58PM

Craptacular wrote: »

Kicking to score a point and kicking to do damage are differences in training, not in technique.

Craptacular wrote: »

Yes, they are trained for a different purpose but the core techniques can't be that different. Lift knee, extend foot.

Not hugely different for the teep but the roundhouse (or turning kick as TKDers usually call it) are totally different techniques. Different techniques for different sporting arenas.

Dyr · 14-02-2013 04:07PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Whatever the differences between fighting styles and what will and won't work on the street the main advantage that a 'trained' fighter of any discipline should have is what I call a 'fighting brain'.
Time spent sparring in the gym/dojo/whatever will stand to you on the street with regards to assessing situations and assessing how to deal with them.

I disagree. There's a thread on here with an interview with a guy called Marc Denny that mentions footage of a skilled martial artist attempting a double leg takedown against an opponent armed with a training knife, with predictable results.

This isn't a martial arts thing it's a life thing: to assume that a solution which is appropriate for one set of circumstances will also be appropriate for a different set of circumstances is a risk.

Situations dictate goals, goals dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate technique.

twowheelsonly · 14-02-2013 04:41PM

Bambi wrote: »

I disagree. There's a thread on here with an interview with a guy called Marc Denny that mentions footage of a skilled martial artist attempting a double leg takedown against an opponent armed with a training knife, with predictable results.

This isn't a martial arts thing it's a life thing: to assume that a solution which is appropriate for one set of circumstances will also be appropriate for a different set of circumstances is a risk.

Situations dictate goals, goals dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate technique.

???? That's exactly what I (tried

) intended to say.

Every situation on the street is unique, hence the need to have a 'fighting brain'. Doesn't mean that you will fight or use certain techniques at any given time, just that you will have the power to assess situations better and faster than the average person and act accordingly. If that involves running away then so be it !!
It could just as easily entail talking somebody down, putting someone on the floor or getting into a corner/curling in a ball in a no-win situation. Assessing the situation is where it's at. Some of your physical techniques will work, some won't depending on the situation. Having the brains to assess this is where it's at.

pablohoney87 · 14-02-2013 05:23PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

???? That's exactly what I (tried ) intended to say.

Every situation on the street is unique, hence the need to have a 'fighting brain'. Doesn't mean that you will fight or use certain techniques at any given time, just that you will have the power to assess situations better and faster than the average person and act accordingly. If that involves running away then so be it !!

What on earth are you talking about a fighting brain for?
There are those who have trained and those who haven't when it comes to defending yourself.
Those who have will get by on what the have learned.
Those who havent will get by on agressionand athleticism.

In terms of asessing any situation you again have two kinds of people. Those who won't bother themselves with trouble and those who are morons.

BJJ_Expert · 14-02-2013 06:32PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

Some people will be ineffective no matter what training method is used. Techniques are just facilitators for most* people. You are either able to handle yourself, or you are not.

* not all.

And how long is a length of string :rolleyes:

cowzerp · 15-02-2013 08:29AM

TKD gives great flexibility and balance and with minor changes to the technique TKD lads will learn to kick in a more fight effective way very easily-so while I wouldn't rate it as a great fighting sport it does not mean a TKDer can't be or become a great fighter.

But I still go back to the point that hitting people hard in any way can knock them out, I've seen useless fighters knock others out by just swinging wildly.

pauly58 · 15-02-2013 09:25AM

This thread could rapidly develop into one of those silly arguments of my style is better than yours.

I don't think anyone is saying TKD is useless. I have many times sparred with Don Dalton, 7th degree I think. Don has been training since he was a young man & is superb. But , he has been training for many years.

I started Shotokan in England in 1980 under Enoeda, probably one of the best in the world. All his blackbelts were very similar in standard, good. My sensei said to me it takes 20 years to learn to punch, & I think he was right.

Now times have changed, more yobs are carrying knives. There is no knife defence taught in the Shotokan sylabus or TKD. I know individual instructors do a bit of self defence but the point remains.

There is nothing new in self defence. The SOE agents & Commandos were taught a sort but intensive course , probably not a lot different to what the Israeli's used to start Krav Maga. Now there are probably some bad teachers of that style, but in Cork there is a very good one, no I don't train in it but my two son's do, one is 1st kyu in Shotokan & the other Red tag in TKD. The standard they are at in about 18 months now is staggering.

I'm not saying do this or do that, everyone has his own choice, but if you are a young man in his late teens or early twenties you need to learn a complete style. Do boxing if you like the competition aspect but don't think you are going to punch something hard without gloves on & not hurt your hand. It took me a long time of using a makiwara to condition my hands to break .

Whatever you do enjoy it, but don't be blinkered.

cowzerp · 15-02-2013 10:28AM

pauly58 wrote: »

This thread could rapidly develop into one of those silly arguments of my style is better than yours.

I don't think anyone is saying TKD is useless. I have many times sparred with Don Dalton, 7th degree I think. Don has been training since he was a young man & is superb. But , he has been training for many years.

I started Shotokan in England in 1980 under Enoeda, probably one of the best in the world. All his blackbelts were very similar in standard, good. My sensei said to me it takes 20 years to learn to punch, & I think he was right.

Now times have changed, more yobs are carrying knives. There is no knife defence taught in the Shotokan sylabus or TKD. I know individual instructors do a bit of self defence but the point remains.

There is nothing new in self defence. The SOE agents & Commandos were taught a sort but intensive course , probably not a lot different to what the Israeli's used to start Krav Maga. Now there are probably some bad teachers of that style, but in Cork there is a very good one, no I don't train in it but my two son's do, one is 1st kyu in Shotokan & the other Red tag in TKD. The standard they are at in about 18 months now is staggering.

I'm not saying do this or do that, everyone has his own choice, but if you are a young man in his late teens or early twenties you need to learn a complete style. Do boxing if you like the competition aspect but don't think you are going to punch something hard without gloves on & not hurt your hand. It took me a long time of using a makiwara to condition my hands to break .

Whatever you do enjoy it, but don't be blinkered.

Good technique will stop your hand breaking!

I could teach a beginner how to punch in 1 day-now someone who has years of shotakan or TKD will be harder to teach due to years of terrible punching

Dyr · 15-02-2013 11:02AM

cowzerp wrote: »

Good technique will stop your hand breaking!

that and wraps and gloves :pac:

crosstrainer1 · 15-02-2013 12:29PM

No matter what striking system you train you going to get cross overs. Your going to find simular patterns. In which you will adapt to your own personal fighting system. It also depends on what your looking for in a system. My instructor Mike krause in the 80s was an undefeated 4th degree european TKD champion.said that when he was taught Savate the through Dan Inosanto instructors programme " a light when on in my head, This is what TKD should be like" so each to there own

cowzerp · 15-02-2013 12:49PM

Bambi wrote: »

that and wraps and gloves :pac:

I you get all types of martial arts to punch bare knuckle the 1 with the best technique will be the least likely to break their hands

I grew up in darndale and was in many more fights than I'd care to admit, and I never hurt my hand.

Bad technique hurts hands, look at joe Calzaghe to see a boxer who regularly hurt his hands.

Dyr · 17-02-2013 12:15AM

cowzerp wrote: »

I you get all types of martial arts to punch bare knuckle the 1 with the best technique will be the least likely to break their hands

I grew up in darndale and was in many more fights than I'd care to admit, and I never hurt my hand.

Bad technique hurts hands, look at joe Calzaghe to see a boxer who regularly hurt his hands.

Mike Tyson had bad technique?

Logical_Bear · 17-02-2013 11:16PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

the fight or flight instinct is very fundamental and operates at a base level that training doesn't interact with.

thats rubbish,sparring gets rid of your fight or flight response*

*unless opponent has knife,gun or a chuck norris training cert

arybvtcw0eolkf · 17-02-2013 11:30PM

Logical_Bear wrote: »

thats rubbish,sparring gets rid of your fight or flight response*

No it doesn't.

Violence can never, ever be replicated in the club/dojo.

I don't get the least bit nervous in the club, regardless what I train (BJJ, MMA, Judo).. But on the door I get nervous when I know a row is about to kick off, training hasn't changed that one bit.

Morph the Cat · 18-02-2013 11:24AM

Billy White Faun wrote: »

No it doesn't.

Violence can never, ever be replicated in the club/dojo.

I don't get the least bit nervous in the club, regardless what I train (BJJ, MMA, Judo).. But on the door I get nervous when I know a row is about to kick off, training hasn't changed that one bit.

Fully agree. I don't get nervous at all when sparring because I know I won't get hurt by anyone intentionally or with malice intent. Sure - I may get injured, but that's an accident.

You cannot in any way replicate that rush of adrenaline when a real situation kicks off. Only recently I got that feeling at an ATM when I thought a guy was about to mug my wife as she was taking her money out - his body language seemed odd - the way he was loitering around the ATM, etc. I was aware of the situation and ready to act, but I still got an uncontrollable rush and almost froze (nothing happened BTW - but it was a stark reality check).

What also concerned me afterwards was what would I have actually done? Try to body lock & restrain him? Thai clinch & knees to face? Take him down and pound him? Keep my distance & just try to punch him out? Choke him out? What about kicks? - nobody expects a stiff front kick to the gut! There were actually too many options whizzing through my head, that I worried about what I actually would have gone to out of instinct - or would I have just forgotten all my training and started flailing wildly like a schoolyard brawl and forget to cover, given the adrenaline rush!!? That worried me. My "go-to" in my head would always be to restrain via Thai Plum, and land some knees if they struggle - but who the f*ck knows!? The gym & the street couldn't be more different. My mantra is definitely to avoid confrontation if at all possible.

cowzerp · 18-02-2013 11:35AM

Bambi wrote: »

Mike Tyson had bad technique?

Anyone can break there hand, 1 example does not prove anything-a man of similar power to Mike would have broke both his hands if he hadn't good technique.

Good technique also does not guarantee a clean punch, but there is a higher chance it will be clean.

Morph the Cat wrote: »

What also concerned me afterwards was what would I have actually done? Try to body lock & restrain him? Thai clinch & knees to face? Take him down and pound him? Keep my distance & just try to punch him out? Choke him out? What about kicks? - nobody expects a stiff front kick to the gut! There were actually too many options whizzing through my head, that I worried about what I actually would have gone to out of instinct - or would I have just forgotten all my training and started flailing wildly like a schoolyard brawl and forget to cover, given the adrenaline rush!!? That worried me. My "go-to" in my head would always be to restrain via Thai Plum, and land some knees if they struggle - but who the f*ck knows!? The gym & the street couldn't be more different. My mantra is definitely to avoid confrontation if at all possible.

Straight Right cross to the head, Simples.

HammerHeadGym · 18-02-2013 11:26PM

Billy White Faun wrote: »

Violence can never, ever be replicated in the club/dojo.

I disagree. It can never be matched but you can get close. Certainly, close enough to give a real edge in a street fight. I'm basing that of my own experience.

Billy White Faun wrote: »

I don't get the least bit nervous in the club, regardless what I train (BJJ, MMA, Judo).. But on the door I get nervous when I know a row is about to kick off, training hasn't changed that one bit.

I'm totally the opposite. After this long training, I no longer fear pub brawls. Compared to my first encounter on the door 16 years ago, at christmas. A fella raised his voice to me and I went through half a box of smokes before I stopped shaking.
Now when I'm going in to break up a pub fight my heart doesn't really accelerate. And I put it all down to the confidence that training, sparring and conditioning gives me.

tritium · 19-02-2013 10:38AM

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

I disagree. It can never be matched but you can get close. Certainly, close enough to give a real edge in a street fight. I'm basing that of my own experience.

I'm totally the opposite. After this long training, I no longer fear pub brawls. Compared to my first encounter on the door 16 years ago, at christmas. A fella raised his voice to me and I went through half a box of smokes before I stopped shaking.
Now when I'm going in to break up a pub fight my heart doesn't really accelerate. And I put it all down to the confidence that training, sparring and conditioning gives me.

Just curious. Do you think it's entirely down to the training, sparring etc or does having a lot of experience in these type of situations help? If for example you had to take an extended training break due to injury or the like do you think your reaction in a live situation would change?

Plastikman_eire · 19-02-2013 02:03PM

Billy White Faun wrote: »

No it doesn't.

Violence can never, ever be replicated in the club/dojo.

I don't get the least bit nervous in the club, regardless what I train (BJJ, MMA, Judo).. But on the door I get nervous when I know a row is about to kick off, training hasn't changed that one bit.

I agree about training, but I think Competition experience in a striking art goes along way towards training out the fight or flight response.

Chris89 · 19-02-2013 06:07PM

he kicked him really hard in the head and he went asleep, what is there to argue about here?

Whether its taekwando, thai boxing, karate or anything else, if you wallop someone in the head that hard they will probably turn off.

As for training, if youre not ACTUALLY practicing walloping someone in the head (i.e training with full resistance against a non compliant opponent who is also trying to wallop you!) then you probably shouldnt be confident in your head walloping abilities, regardless of what 'style' you 'train'.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 19-02-2013 06:14PM

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

I'm totally the opposite. After this long training, I no longer fear pub brawls. Compared to my first encounter on the door 16 years ago, at christmas. A fella raised his voice to me and I went through half a box of smokes before I stopped shaking.
Now when I'm going in to break up a pub fight my heart doesn't really accelerate. And I put it all down to the confidence that training, sparring and conditioning gives me.

Who said anything about fear?.

It might have been more accurate to say I still get an adrenaline rush instead of nerves.. Dunno might be a bit of both, but its certainly ain't fear.

Either way I have never trained anywhere or in any style which brought me anywhere close to how a row in work feels.

What I find training is great for is preparing someone for the moments after the initial assault begins, any composure you might have lost is recovered very quickly and often times you'll surprise yourself have just how much you'd to hold back (compared to what you'd do in training) in case you caused serious harm.

This all relates to me and working, when I'm out socializing I've never been bothered by anyone. Well not since I grew out of my rowdy 20's

If I wasn't working then I'd go along with Cowzer "A straight right cross" ~ as Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

(ah remember working the doors in the days before CCTV and mobile phones!!!).

jigglypuffstuff · 24-02-2013 10:51AM

runawaybishop wrote: »

I disagree, the fight or flight instinct is very fundamental and operates at a base level that training doesn't interact with.

Absolute rubbish,

Ive studied psychology as part of my degree and i think ive gained a grasp of the fight or flight instinct :pac:

Martial arts training works due to repetition

When a well trained martial artist is attacked due the their training their reaction will be a sensory one.

Regarding fight or flight thats a decision based thing, someone has to feel threatened to experience that, what if a punch came without warning?? A well trained martial artist will react without thinking therefore not getting a chance to feel threatened. After the initial attack the well trained martial artist will have chosen fight without ever really thinking about it. However throw variables such as guns knives or 4/5 of the guys buddies into a situation and that would change everything due to the unusual nature of the situation

Your argument is invalid!!:P

Andrew H · 24-02-2013 11:03PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

Martial arts are facilitators. They improve and assist underlying abilities, teach discipline etc. They don't turn a wimp into a badass.

I disagree with this statement. Martial arts help to instill confidence in people. There are plenty of well known Martial Artists who you may have classed as a wimp and became badasses.

Muhammad Ali learned to Box after his bike was stolen:

http://history1900s.about.com/od/people/a/muhammadali.htm

Bas Rutten began Tae Kwan Do at the age of 12 after been bullied for years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bas_Rutten

Tae Kwon Do doesn't work ??

Comments