Tampering with Odometer : How common is it ?

Redtop · 10-11-2012 05:30PM #1

I went to see what looked like a nice motor for sale privately with 35K miles. Before making an offer, I decided to have it checked out, as there was not a lot of history with it, but was assured it was "genuine". The report said it should have 55K miles on it and was flagged as being potentially Clocked. When I told the seller, he claimed he knew nothing about it. I decided to walk and will look elsewhere. It was also Auctioned and the seller knew nothing of that either. Has anyone else come across this ?

robertxxx · 10-11-2012 05:36PM

It's rampant, but mainly naas road kylemore road area. IMO

Its not illegal to do.

ba_barabus · 10-11-2012 05:38PM

Redtop wrote: »

I went to see what looked like a nice motor for sale privately with 35K miles. Before making an offer, I decided to have it checked out, as there was not a lot of history with it, but was assured it was "genuine". The report said it should have 55K miles on it and was flagged as being potentially Clocked. When I told the seller, he claimed he knew nothing about it. I decided to walk and will look elsewhere. It was also Auctioned and the seller knew nothing of that either. Has anyone else come across this ?

I think your report is wrong.

35K miles is about 55k kilometers.....

Alanstrainor · 10-11-2012 05:41PM

Those reports are often off. It would seem mental to clock a car from only 55 to 35 imo

Redtop · 10-11-2012 06:02PM

I double checked and the report showed dates of recorded mileage with the later date recording lower mileage. I wonder if it was conveniently clocked to look like someone could confuse the Miles with Km.

ba_barabus · 10-11-2012 06:03PM

Can you post up the report?

randy hickey · 11-11-2012 01:52PM

As discussed on a recent thread here, people need to wake up to the fact that these vehicle check reports can NOT be treated as gospel.

colm_mcm · 11-11-2012 04:05PM

Is there any service history, what year is it and what model.

CrowdedHouse · 11-11-2012 04:57PM

randy hickey wrote: »

As discussed on a recent thread here, people need to wake up to the fact that these vehicle check reports can NOT be treated as gospel.

Cartell/Mywheels show mine as a pretty unique 7 speed version of the model

colm_mcm · 11-11-2012 05:33PM

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

Cartell/Mywheels show mine as a pretty unique 7 speed version of the model

What description do they give out of interest?

CrowdedHouse · 11-11-2012 05:40PM

Here ya go....

Mar4ix · 11-11-2012 05:49PM

it think, if you could bring to diagnostics , computer would show real mileage, deep mileage change, which is in cars ecu, requires professional knowledge and dealer level equipment, not many would risk do on new car.

colm_mcm · 11-11-2012 05:50PM

Weird, how does this description compare with other websites?

CrowdedHouse · 11-11-2012 05:56PM

Dunno the only other one I know of is MyWheels - same on that.

Maybe BMW screwed up and the VLC is wrong, I never looked at it.

But you can imagine the punter ' Hey! You said that car was 8 speed but Cartell says it's 7'

Redtop · 14-11-2012 09:30AM

colm_mcm wrote: »

Is there any service history, what year is it and what model.

There was no Service History with the car which made me suspicious. If the mileage was genuine, why was there not paperwork to support that ? On the off chance that the report is wrong, I will not post details of the car in question.

Bearcat · 14-11-2012 09:36AM

robertxxx wrote: »

It's rampant, but mainly naas road kylemore road area. IMO

Its not illegal to do.

Buy that man a beer!

colm_mcm · 14-11-2012 10:58AM

Clocking is everywhere.

mullingar · 14-11-2012 02:04PM

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

Here ya go....

Snigger, the car reg that you scribbled out is on the URL of the screenshot

:pac:

Our man in Havana · 14-11-2012 02:20PM

mullingar wrote: »

Snigger, the car reg that you scribbled out is on the URL of the screenshot :pac:

Indeed it is.

CrowdedHouse · 14-11-2012 02:35PM

LOL oh well only for another few weeks anyway

Redtop · 15-11-2012 03:09AM

ba_barabus wrote: »

I think your report is wrong.

35K miles is about 55k kilometers.....

Believe it or not, you are correct. Motorcheck confirmed the error and it has been fixed.

shawnee · 15-11-2012 08:32AM

Car clocking is rampant , know of a guy who makes a living from it. Travels all over the country , even does it for repossesed cars, companies/garages. Service history and knowledge of the owner is the only way to be sure.
And the strange thing about it ... here in Ireland , "mileage correction" as it is called is not illegal, have a look in buy and sell and you will see adverts for it.

ironclaw · 15-11-2012 08:44AM

shawnee wrote: »

And the strange thing about it ... here in Ireland , "mileage correction" as it is called is not illegal, have a look in buy and sell and you will see adverts for it.

Not arguing but how is it legal? Is there no legislation? Or just not enforced? Surely its at the very least misrepresentation of a product.

Redtop · 15-11-2012 10:09AM

Redtop wrote: »

Believe it or not, you are correct. Motorcheck confirmed the error and it has been fixed.

Motorcheck clarified that this was a Miles to Kms error. A dealer entered Miles first into the database and then later realised the error but rather than correcting the error, just entered the same number as Kms a fed days later. The database & report have been corrected, so the car is now "clean".

Our man in Havana · 15-11-2012 11:02AM

ironclaw wrote: »

Not arguing but how is it legal? Is there no legislation? Or just not enforced? Surely its at the very least misrepresentation of a product.

It is not illegal at all to simply wind back the odometer. It is an offence to misrepresent the reading as a true reading when selling it on.

shawnee · 15-11-2012 06:37PM

Our man in Havana wrote: »

It is not illegal at all to simply wind back the odometer. It is an offence to misrepresent the reading as a true reading when selling it on.

Well they are not winding back the clocks for a hobby....

For the amount of it going on there are very very few prosecutions

Bearcat · 15-11-2012 06:42PM

shawnee wrote: »

Service history and knowledge of the owner is the only way to be sure.
.

Not worth the paper it's written on in many instances......knowledge of the owner wins it for me.

shawnee · 15-11-2012 07:47PM

Bearcat wrote: »

Not worth the paper it's written on in many instances......knowledge of the owner wins it for me.

I did say both were required to be sure !

yammagamma · 25-08-2013 01:07PM

robertxxx wrote: »

It's rampant, but mainly naas road kylemore road area. IMO

Its not illegal to do.

well you can get 10 years in prison for doing so, so i guess it is illegal

Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001

Making gain or causing loss by deception.

6.—(1) A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception induces another to do or refrain from doing an act is guilty of an offence.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.

AND/OR

Forgery.

25.—(1) A person is guilty of forgery if he or she makes a false instrument with the intention that it shall be used to induce another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, to the prejudice of that person or any other person.

AND/OR
Using false instrument.
26.—(1) A person who uses an instrument which is, and which he or she knows or believes to be, a false instrument, with the intention of inducing another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, or to provide some service, to the prejudice of that person or any other person is guilty of an offence.

2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

bazz26 · 25-08-2013 01:21PM

How many people have actually got 10 years for doing it though. Anything I have read and all that happens is they get a slap on the wrist, a fine and told promise not to do it again.

Max Power1 · 25-08-2013 01:37PM

It is not illegal to clock a car. as mentioned, the only crime is to lie when asked if it is clocked, when selling.

visual · 25-08-2013 02:10PM

Max Power1 wrote: »

It is not illegal to clock a car. as mentioned, the only crime is to lie when asked if it is clocked, when selling.

The milometer is taken at face value unless owner / seller declares it to be incorrect.

Failing to disclose, saying nothing or evading the question is fraud.

Max Power1 · 25-08-2013 02:12PM

visual wrote: »

The milometer is taken at face value unless owner / seller declares it to be incorrect.

Failing to disclose, saying nothing or evading the question is fraud.

But the statement made in most car ads "the odometer reads xxx" is factually correct
It is only if the seller is asked is the mileage genuine, that they must declare the clocking

visual · 25-08-2013 04:07PM

Max Power1 wrote: »

But the statement made in most car ads "the odometer reads xxx" is factually correct
It is only if the seller is asked is the mileage genuine, that they must declare the clocking

Can just picture the expression on judge face hearing that excuse

Guy:Incognito · 25-08-2013 04:25PM

visual wrote: »

Can just picture the expression on judge face hearing that excuse

Judge can pull whatever face he wants , if somthing isnt illegal theres nothing he can do

Max Power1 · 25-08-2013 04:29PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Judge can pull whatever face he wants , if somthing isnt illegal theres nothing he can do

Finally, someone who is actually aware of the legal situation regarding clocking in this country :P

FWIW I totally disagree with the current laws, it should be illegal to clock a car under all circumstances. But it isnt currently, and there is no use pretending that it is!

Guy:Incognito · 25-08-2013 04:32PM

Max Power1 wrote: »

Finally, someone who is actually aware of the legal situation regarding clocking in this country :P

FWIW I totally disagree with the current laws, it should be illegal to clock a car under all circumstances. But it isnt currently, and there is no use pretending that it is!

Why should it be illegal ? Its your car to do as you please with. If altering the mileage is flat out illegal, what happens if your clocks die? What if youve no priof of the exact mileage when they died? Are you now a criminal because you cant tell a new owner the exact real mileage?

Max Power1 · 25-08-2013 04:44PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why should it be illegal ? Its your car to do as you please with. If altering the mileage is flat out illegal, what happens if your clocks die? What if youve no priof of the exact mileage when they died? Are you now a criminal because you cant tell a new owner the exact real mileage?

Ok, so I used the wrong phrasing
Selling a clocked car should be specifically illegal. It should be on the seller to have to disclose this fact, rather than the buyer having to ask.

Padraig Mor · 25-08-2013 07:23PM

Max Power1 wrote: »

Ok, so I used the wrong phrasing
Selling a clocked car should be specifically illegal. It should be on the seller to have to disclose this fact, rather than the buyer having to ask.

The buyer doesn't have to ask. I'm not sure of the exact specifics of the legislation, but recent cases show that, in practice, there is a presumption of competence regarding mileage accorded to car dealers - ie a dealer can be prosecuted for selling a clocked car if he doesn't tell the buyer or even if it can't be proved that he knew it was clocked. The presumption is that, as a professional in the field, he SHOULD know.

Guy:Incognito · 25-08-2013 08:20PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

The buyer doesn't have to ask. I'm not sure of the exact specifics of the legislation, but recent cases show that, in practice, there is a presumption of competence regarding mileage accorded to car dealers - ie a dealer can be prosecuted for selling a clocked car if he doesn't tell the buyer or even if it can't be proved that he knew it was clocked. The presumption is that, as a professional in the field, he SHOULD know.

Its not only dealers that sell cars.

S28382 · 25-08-2013 08:46PM

There is a Beemer on done deal that has been clocked from 127000 miles to 107000 miles. I was on the verge of buying until I found out it was clocked.

It's a disgrace it's allowed happen.

pred racer · 25-08-2013 09:00PM

S28382 wrote: »

There is a Beemer on done deal that has been clocked from 127000 miles to 107000 miles. I was on the verge of buying until I found out it was clocked.

It's a disgrace it's allowed happen.

Why would someone bother knocking 20k off a car?

S28382 · 25-08-2013 11:46PM

pred racer wrote: »

Why would someone bother knocking 20k off a car?

I'm sure they had their reason. It put me off buying it and the fact the engine bay was filthy.

Tampering with Odometer : How common is it ?

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