Should the maximum handicap be reviewed?

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 01:52PM

Russman wrote: »

I don't think this is right at all. Can someone not have a good day ?
No matter what level is set as an acceptable standard, be it 36pts, 30pts or 40pts, there will always be someone who plays well on any given day. To suggest people need to play well to shoot their handicap would almost suggest nobody could ever improve.

CONGU handicaps are designed that way, its not something I've come up with!
Handicap Reviews

Russman wrote: »

As for how they choose to play, you can't seriously suggest that someone decides to play well on a given day ?
At an entirely different level to us amateurs, how come Jim Furyk can shoot 59 one day and 70-something another day on the same course ? And I'd suggest he's a lot more consistent than handicap amateurs. Golf isn't a science, nobody really knows what they're going to score going out.

Not that they choose to play well or poorly (I think everyone on here is excluding those people) but how they approach the game of golf in general. The types of shots they play. They are higher handicaps not because of their skill at hitting a ball, its about why/what/when they choose to do it.

Russman wrote: »

There seems to be an inbuilt assumption that a handicap player who shoots a really good score is by default a sandbagger and I disagree with it.

I certainly dont have that assumption.
I would however say that the cause of the large range of scores of higher handicap golfers has more to do with shot selection than it does with their skill at hitting a ball. IMO this is not what the handicap is designed to help with.

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 01:56PM

kelbal wrote: »

yeah you're right on that one.

Granted there's a certain amount of bad decision making in high handicappers, i.e. not playing safe, playing a lob instead of a pitch&run for example. But in my experience high handicappers are that way because of simple bad technique, or they've lost alot of length. You don't decide to duff a shot 20y in front of you. You don't decide to hit your driver 150m and take 3 shots to reach every par 4.

Which is why no one on here has a problem with someone being a high handicap because of an actual handicap (age, injury etc)

Its unfair that Billy who is 67 and still plays off 12 because he is consistent and has adapted his game to his handicap has to compete against Barry who is 22 and also plays of 12 and hits it 8 miles further than Billy, can hit flop shots and bend the ball, but is as stable on the course as a bag of jelly.

realgolfgeek · 01-10-2013 02:01PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Its unfair that Billy who is 67 and still plays off 12 because he is consistent and has adapted his game to his handicap has to compete against Barry who is 22 and also plays of 12 and hits it 8 miles further than Billy, can hit flop shots and bend the ball, but is as stable on the course as a bag of jelly.

I don't understand this, why is it unfair ?

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:03PM

ssbob wrote: »

@Greebo/@Redzah: What you are suggesting here is to cap all high handicappers at 18 so therefore for me personally you are reducing my handicap by approx 25%. Would you be able to play to 75% of your handicap?

25% of 22 is not the same as 25% of 9.
its *much* harder to drop from 5 to 1 than it is to drop from 15 to 20.

If you were cut to 18 tomorrow then you could play to 22 (i.e. shoot 36 points off 22) and you would still be in your buffer and not get 0.1

I honestly think it would be *good* for your game.

Russman wrote: »

Stupidly in your eyes maybe, but who sets the standard for what's "stupid" ?

You could equally argue that coming over the top and slicing across a driver is stupid, why couldn't you just hit it from the inside and hit a draw down the fairway ?
Or telling someone who has the yips that they can't get shots back because missing a short putt is stupid.

Playing golf is made up of many factors and you can't isolate one that suits.

You make a conscious choice on what shot to hit each time, you dont choose to hit a duff or a slice.
If I repeatedly hit duff shots in a round I cannot expect to score well, why should I expect to score well because I repeatedly make poor decisions?

ajcurry123 wrote: »

What you are failing to comprehend or acknowledge is that not everyone can be as repetitive and correct as you when it comes to the mental game.

Mental game is somthing that needs to be worked on just like every other aspect of the game.
It's not an on/off switch and why should the HC system assume it's on from the get go.

I'm not saying you have to be. But your score should be punished for mental errors just as much as physical errors.
The days you make less of both types of errors are the day you play and score well e.g. 36 points. The days you have a great day is when you score 42.

Otherwise your handicap is just this buffer thats there to allow you to make silly decisions and get away with it.

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:04PM

realgolfgeek wrote: »

I don't understand this, why is it unfair ?

Because Barry has miles more golfing ability than Billy has yet they are supposed to play off the same handicap.
If Billy played the same style as Barry his handicap would shoot up, then he could choose which holes to play his sensible game on and walk in with 40 points every week.

Redzah · 01-10-2013 02:06PM

ssbob wrote: »

@Greebo/@Redzah: What you are suggesting here is to cap all high handicappers at 18 so therefore for me personally you are reducing my handicap by approx 25%. Would you be able to play to 75% of your handicap?

There is not a huge difference between 24 and 18, 24 is excessive in my opinion. Unless for whatever reason you are physically unable to reach the majority (i.e. 51%) of par 3's in 1, the par 4's in 2 and the par 5's in 3 then i think 18 is a fair cap on maximum handicap

In relation to your other query; Yes, i can say definitively that I would be able to play to 75% of my handicap

Russman · 01-10-2013 02:07PM

GreeBo wrote: »

has more to do with shot selection than it does with their skill at hitting a ball. IMO this is not what the handicap is designed to help with.

But shot selection is an essential skill in the playing of golf, some are good at it, some are not. Not being good at it costs shots just the same as a big slice does. Different people have different strengths and weaknesses, you can't favour one over the other. You might think that shot selection is something easily worked on and fixed (and I'd agree with you), but some people just can't do it, or they forget the mental approach when they're on the course.

I think you need to look at the round as a score for 18 holes, not the "why" behind the round.

ssbob · 01-10-2013 02:09PM

GreeBo wrote: »

25% of 22 is not the same as 25% of 9.
its *much* harder to drop from 5 to 1 than it is to drop from 15 to 20.

If you were cut to 18 tomorrow then you could play to 22 (i.e. shoot 36 points off 22) and you would still be in your buffer and not get 0.1

I honestly think it would be *good* for your game.

I am not saying drop from 5 to 1 or but in your case I am saying go from 9 to 7? I think that is a fair comparison as me going from 23 to 18.

I was playing off 20 initially and it was only when I got two shots added back earlier this year after drifting out to 22 that I got some confidence along with better course management and worked on my game, I can now play to 23/24 most of the time but not sure if I could play to 18.

I WANT TO BE A SCRATCH GOLFER BTW.

Russman · 01-10-2013 02:09PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Because Barry has miles more golfing ability than Billy has yet they are supposed to play off the same handicap.
If Billy played the same style as Barry his handicap would shoot up, then he could choose which holes to play his sensible game on and walk in with 40 points every week.

Does he though ? More to golfing ability than hitting the ball.

realgolfgeek · 01-10-2013 02:12PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Because Barry has miles more golfing ability than Billy has yet they are supposed to play off the same handicap.
If Billy played the same style as Barry his handicap would shoot up, then he could choose which holes to play his sensible game on and walk in with 40 points every week.

He might have more ability, but until he starts shooting lower scores with that ability, his handicap should remain as is.
Once that ability becomes more consistent his handicap will come down, which should even the two players out.

PARlance · 01-10-2013 02:12PM

GreeBo wrote: »

25% of 22 is not the same as 25% of 9.
its *much* harder to drop from 5 to 1 than it is to drop from 15 to 20.

If you were cut to 18 tomorrow then you could play to 22 (i.e. shoot 36 points off 22) and you would still be in your buffer and not get 0.1

I honestly think it would be *good* for your game.

You make a conscious choice on what shot to hit each time, you dont choose to hit a duff or a slice.
If I repeatedly hit duff shots in a round I cannot expect to score well, why should I expect to score well because I repeatedly make poor decisions?

I'm not saying you have to be. But your score should be punished for mental errors just as much as physical errors.
The days you make less of both types of errors are the day you play and score well e.g. 36 points. The days you have a great day is when you score 42.

Otherwise your handicap is just this buffer thats there to allow you to make silly decisions and get away with it.

One question, and it's not meant to be a smart arsed one as I really respect anyone that is at your level.

Question: Why aren't you off scratch?

Background to Q:
You say there's no reason we can't putt like a Pro.
You seem to have course management nailed.
You tee the ball and at the correct height ( that's a little smart

)
You seem to have played enough years to have had the time to get down.
You seem to know your swing inside out.

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:13PM

Russman wrote: »

But shot selection is an essential skill in the playing of golf, some are good at it, some are not. Not being good at it costs shots just the same as a big slice does. Different people have different strengths and weaknesses, you can't favour one over the other. You might think that shot selection is something easily worked on and fixed (and I'd agree with you), but some people just can't do it, or they forget the mental approach when they're on the course.

And this is why I think a max of 18 is required.
If your handicap is there to accommodate your bad decisions then you will only ever get lower by getting better at hitting the ball. This is where you end up with lads off 12 who on a good day are 4 over and on a bad day 20 over.

"Forcing" you to play bogey golf in the beginning is IMO the best thing for both the game and the player in question. Its like getting a free lesson in how to play golf.

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:19PM

ajcurry123 wrote: »

One question, and it's not meant to be a smart arsed one as I really respect anyone that is at your level.

Question: Why aren't you off scratch?

Background to Q:
You say there's no reason we can't putt like a Pro.
You seem to have course management nailed.
You tee the ball and at the correct height ( that's a little smart )
You seem to have played enough years to have had the time to get down.
You seem to know your swing inside out.

Because my bad shots are still far too bad tbh.
On a day where I dont have bad shots I can play to 4 "easily" enough.

Russman wrote: »

Does he though ? More to golfing ability than hitting the ball.

Sorry, I actually meant that he can "hit the ball" far better than Billy.

ssbob wrote: »

I am not saying drop from 5 to 1 or but in your case I am saying go from 9 to 7? I think that is a fair comparison as me going from 23 to 18.

I was playing off 20 initially and it was only when I got two shots added back earlier this year after drifting out to 22 that I got some confidence along with better course management and worked on my game, I can now play to 23/24 most of the time but not sure if I could play to 18.

I WANT TO BE A SCRATCH GOLFER BTW.

If I was cut to 7 tomorrow I dont think my handicap would change that much, sure my scores would be different, but I think, by and large Id be within my buffer or below enough to keep myself at 7 long term.

Redzah · 01-10-2013 02:19PM

ajcurry123 wrote: »

One question, and it's not meant to be a smart arsed one as I really respect anyone that is at your level.

Question: Why aren't you off scratch?

Background to Q:
You say there's no reason we can't putt like a Pro.
You seem to have course management nailed.
You tee the ball and at the correct height ( that's a little smart )
You seem to have played enough years to have had the time to get down.
You seem to know your swing inside out.

Not a fair comparison at all to ask some1 above 18 to play to 18 and then compare some1 off 9 and ask why they can't be a pro.

1. There is no physical reason why we can't putt like a pro but the reason all amatuers don't is usually down to time commitments and focus.

2. No objection that an amatuer can have as good course management as a pro.

3. nice

4. unless you're a believer in that ridiculous 10,000 hours theory then everybody has their talent limit, some are greater than others. To clarify i believe 18 is a fair max handicap for any player of any talent.

5. Again, one can know their swing inside out but a pro's swing is more limitless than a 9 handicappers, a 9 handicapper can know their swing to steer the ball around a course, a pro can know their swing to smash 2 onto a par 5 sink a put for eagle.

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:20PM

realgolfgeek wrote: »

He might have more ability, but until he starts shooting lower scores with that ability, his handicap should remain as is.
Once that ability becomes more consistent his handicap will come down, which should even the two players out.

do you think its right that Billys scores bounce between 34 and 38 points but Barrys for from 20 to 40?

Billy is working like mad to come in within his buffer each week, Barry isnt even aware of his buffer and goes out to play "great" golf each week.

realgolfgeek · 01-10-2013 02:21PM

GreeBo wrote: »

If I was cut to 7 tomorrow I dont think my handicap would change that much, sure my scores would be different, but I think, by and large Id be within my buffer or below enough to keep myself at 7 long term.

If that was the case I think you would have being cut to 7 by now ?

m r c · 01-10-2013 02:22PM

Redzah wrote: »

Please see post #83, i don't appreciate your agressive tone and i am unsure of this relevance regarding my handicap. It is clear that it is less than 18 based on my argument but after that im not sure of why you continue to pursue this?

Also, it would probably take you 2 mins to look at my previous postings on this forum to get an indication. It prob took you a lot longer to ask me my handicap three times as you emphatically stated

Aggressive tone???? Definitely the way you are reading what I've written because all I did was try to understand your point of view better. 3 times.

Your h/c is quite important to your original post here and to your point more generally because if it's anywhere over scratch your whole argument is kicked firmly to touch by this post from you last week.

Quote redzah

Played in corporate outing yesterday, shot -6 (66), 1 eagle, 7 birdies, 8 pars, 1 bogie and 1 double (3 putt from 6 feet ). Bit of a once off round but i'm not gonna complain.

By the looks of things depending on your h/c you could have plenty of wriggle room.

Feck off and leave us high guys alone :-)

realgolfgeek · 01-10-2013 02:25PM

GreeBo wrote: »

do you think its right that Billys scores bounce between 34 and 38 points but Barrys for from 20 to 40?

I do think it's right, and that's where the consistency comes into play.
No reason whatsoever for a player to have a lower handicap because he "may" have more ability. That's ridiculous to be honest.
The only reason for a player to have a lower handicap is that he or she is a better and more consistent player.

You think because I've hit a drive 320 yards once every 25 times, that means I have ability, and I should be cut more ?

PARlance · 01-10-2013 02:27PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Because my bad shots are still far too bad tbh.
On a day where I dont have bad shots I can play to 4 "easily" enough.

You should just eleminate your bad shots.
Or maybe you need to improve your course management to allow for your misses.
All fairly simple, no?
I don't think it is but you are telling us all that other areas are simple.

4 on a good day, should your HC Sec not be handing you over to the GUI?

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:27PM

realgolfgeek wrote: »

If that was the case I think you would have being cut to 7 by now ?

Nope, not necessarily, I could be off 7 but never play to it, just be within my buffer all the time. My lowest is 8.1, frankly there is no difference between a 7 handicap and a 9 handicap golfer other than putting some scores together. Im in a slump at the moment and drifted out to 8.9 but I would argue that my ability hasnt changed, Im still the same me!

On my course the difference between me being off 7 and off 9 is that I hit two less shots out of 75. I dont think thats a big ask. Even if I only shoot 1 less, the buffer is there so catch me.

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:29PM

realgolfgeek wrote: »

I do think it's right, and that's where the consistency comes into play.
No reason whatsoever for a player to have a lower handicap because he "may" have more ability. That's ridiculous to be honest.
The only reason for a player to have a lower handicap is that he or she is a better and more consistent player.

You think because I've hit a drive 320 yards once every 25 times, that means I have ability, and I should be cut more ?

Yes, because otherwise you are using your handicap for the wrong thing IMO. Your skill at hitting a ball is far greater than mine, yet your handicap is higher than mine?

another analogy for ya, my darts handicap is higher because sometimes I get my maths wrong and shoot for the wrong number...would you think thats ok?

kelbal · 01-10-2013 02:29PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Because my bad shots are still far too bad tbh.

And thats precisely why a 25 handicapper can't play off 18!!

realgolfgeek · 01-10-2013 02:29PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Nope, not necessarily, I could be off 7 but never play to it, just be within my buffer all the time. My lowest is 8.1, frankly there is no difference between a 7 handicap and a 9 handicap golfer other than putting some scores together. Im in a slump at the moment and drifted out to 8.9 but I would argue that my ability hasnt changed, Im still the same me!

On my course the difference between me being off 7 and off 9 is that I hit two less shots out of 75. I dont think thats a big ask. Even if I only shoot 1 less, the buffer is there so catch me.

Your post makes it sound all too easy to be honest, and if it was that simple to play off 7 instead of 9, I'd go for playing off 7 every day of the week.

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:31PM

ajcurry123 wrote: »

You should just eleminate your bad shots.
Or maybe you need to improve your course management to allow for your misses.
All fairly simple, no?
I don't think it is but you are telling us all that other areas are simple.

4 on a good day, should your HC Sec not be handing you over to the GUI?

I dont think anyone has the ability to not hit a bad shot, do you?

My course management does allow for my misses, I could reduce it further but then I wouldnt be playing to my handicap.

Coming up with a plan to allow you a 2 putt net par on each hole *is* simple, why do you think its not?

realgolfgeek · 01-10-2013 02:31PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes, because otherwise you are using your handicap for the wrong thing IMO. Your skill at hitting a ball is far greater than mine, yet your handicap is higher than mine?

k, let me get this straight,
because I hit a drive 320 yards, once every say 25 times, you think my H/C should be cut ?

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:31PM

realgolfgeek wrote: »

Your post makes it sound all too easy to be honest, and if it was that simple to play off 7 instead of 9, I'd go for playing off 7 every day of the week.

I dont get to choose to play off a handicap, I have to earn my way down!
I'd take 7 in a heartbeat.

FixdePitchmark · 01-10-2013 02:32PM

Russman wrote: »

But shot selection is an essential skill in the playing of golf, some are good at it, some are not. Not being good at it costs shots just the same as a big slice does. Different people have different strengths and weaknesses, you can't favour one over the other. You might think that shot selection is something easily worked on and fixed (and I'd agree with you), but some people just can't do it, or they forget the mental approach when they're on the course.

I think you need to look at the round as a score for 18 holes, not the "why" behind the round.

Because GreeBo is good at shot selection and course management , nobody should gain shots on him in that area. Yet he wants extra shots to play certain holes outside gir.

In fairness, it is a bit daft.

I'm good at irons, I don't think players should get a shot for any iron shot on a course ,
not fair on me.

The point I'm making is you can't pick and choose, who's shoots are more valid.

Redzah · 01-10-2013 02:32PM

m r c wrote: »

Aggressive tone???? Definitely the way you are reading what I've written because all I did was try to understand your point of view better. 3 times.

Your h/c is quite important to your original post here and to your point more generally because if it's anywhere over scratch your whole argument is kicked firmly to touch by this post from you last week.

Quote redzah

Played in corporate outing yesterday, shot -6 (66), 1 eagle, 7 birdies, 8 pars, 1 bogie and 1 double (3 putt from 6 feet ). Bit of a once off round but i'm not gonna complain.

By the looks of things depending on your h/c you could have plenty of wriggle room.

Feck off and leave us high guys alone :-)

My handicap is currently a low 2 (it drifted out to 4 earlier this year due to poor golf) and i'm on a rich vain of form which i am furiously trying to capitalise on so I can play championship golf next year as the cut off for these tournaments is close to scratch. In fact my score last week only adds weight to my argument due to the following;

1. It was a team of 4 (2 scores to count on each hole) event and safe in the knowledge that I was playing well and we needed a big score to do any good i could go for everything.

2. I would not have gone for everything if this was singles as it has the risk of ruining a good score. I would estimate I turned a -3 round into a -6 round due to the fact that I took on more risk which is a huge difference to me. This would not be a concern for those above 18 handicap as there are plenty of chances to make it up. i.e. the risk element of the risk/reward matrix is eliminated for those above 18 in my opinion by virtue of too many shots being allocated

If you think im a bandit/cheat whatever based on that round (which is my lowest ever) then fine but what i will say is that i would take a 0.1 cut over a competition victory as it excites me more of achieving my goal of being back to scratch and competing in the top amatuer comp's which i am currently just over a shot away from doing.

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:34PM

realgolfgeek wrote: »

k, let me get this straight,
because I hit a drive 320 yards, once every say 25 times, you think my H/C should be cut ?

It totally depends on what your handicap is.
If it was 28 Id say yes.
If it was 8 Id say no.

Your handicap is there to compensate for a lack of ability. If you can hit the ball 320 yards, ever, you are not suffering from a lack of ability.
Rather, IMO, you are using your high handicap to hold you back.

GreeBo · 01-10-2013 02:36PM

kelbal wrote: »

And thats precisely why a 25 handicapper can't play off 18!!

No, thats why anyone should be able to have a better than average day and at least play to 18.

Should the maximum handicap be reviewed?

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