Feedback Appreciated :)

lucasmaximus · 27-10-2013 12:08pm #1

Hello, first time poster, long time reader and all that lark. Really enjoy reading people's stories so thought I would post mine. Im 23, from Dublin and I'm gay. I have always known it but I was less savvy with it when I realised what the word really meant and the shame and perversion that I suddenly now equated my behaviour with. I never dwelled on it too much growing up though as I was enjoying all the other aspects of growing up. But I did have outlets, when I was 13, 15 and 17 my dad, who is pretty easy goin most of the time, found porn on my phone, and his computer twice. On the first two occasions he would come into my room and the air would change. Its such a horrible horrible feeling as he tells you what hes found and then just goes on a rampage most of which I cant remember. After this, we wouldnt talk for about 2 weeks and then things would slowly slip back to normal without ever addressing the clear issues I was having with my sexuality.

On the third occasion, he told my mom who collected me from school the next day (half day wednesday) and she went on a mad one aswell, but worse, she wasnt having any of it. Asked if I was gay I would just mumble about confusion, I didn't have the confidence nor intelligence to fight my corner. Once again, things slipped back to normal with no one addressing the now big issue, I was just left to feel massively ashamed of myself and to figure my **** out on my own but end up straight basically regardless of the means or method. Only one other time was it ever grazed over, my parents go to Latin mass in the city centre, and after mass there is a publication called 'The Brandsma Review', a conservatively written monthly edition magazine for want of a better word. Anyway my mom calls me into the kitchen and insists I sit down and read what she has left open on the table. I agree and go on to read a 5 page article in the form of a narrative of some guy basically describing how coming out was the worst decision he ever made and the negative repurcussions it had afterwards. My mom giving me a very clear signal there, but having finished reading it I just said 'ok' and it was never mentioned again.

Having failed 2 college courses I decided to travel and am currently in Australia where I write this now, I intend to travel home soon either for a visit or to study but am really at a loss as of what to do about my parents who are great in other ways. I also feel quite resentful and angry with them that they never ever offered support or try to open a dialogue with me about it knowing that there reactions had made me far too sheepish to bring it up again. I have told friends and have tried to be 'out' over here but I think being in the closet can really warp your ability or behaviour in relationships when you finally get to explore same sex attraction. Anyway just wanted to get this down as its all Ive been thinking about for a large part of the time recently, apologies for being long winded. Thanks!

Bazinga_N · 27-10-2013 2:17pm

It seems you've accepted the fact you're gay and you're okay with it. Your only issue is your parents. You have to remember your parents aren't living your life. You are. It's your life and you have to do what makes you happy. If coming out is what's going to make you happy than that's something you just have to do. You're parents love you, regardless of what you may think. They mightn't accept your sexuality at first but in time, they'll just have to accept it. You're an adult and you need to live your life instead of hiding away for another 23 years! Best of luck with it all

In all honesty I can't imagine what goes through a parents mind when it comes to their children coming out as gay. It's all unconditional love until they do something against your beliefs. Madness!

georgesstreet · 28-10-2013 12:26pm

It's very hard to know what to do, especially in light of the fact that in the past both your parents seemed to think that their angry response is in some way helpful or appropriate.

Lets hope they have come to terms with in since then, and realise that their responses are not only unhelpful, but actually damaging to their relationship to their child. you can't live your life trying to please them at your own detriment, any more than they can live their lives to please you.

Maybe you can think of someone who they like and admire, perhaps a family friend or one of their brothers or sisters, or someone else who might help, who could discuss with them in advance of you coming home, and try to make them realise what you get up to in your bedroom is no business of theirs, any more than what they get up to in their bedroom is any business of yours.

It's very hard, but whatever their reaction should not prevent you looking for and finding a partner and creating a life together. We all have to remember that the only thing of any importance in this life is to love and be loved, and don't be put off finding love because your parents might disapprove. It's up to them if they want to share in your life and be a part of it, and I think it's important to realise that we all owe it to ourselves to choose happiness, and if they are not able to be happy, it's likely they will see less and less of you in the future.

lucasmaximus · 31-10-2013 10:50am

Thanks for the replies guys, its nice to see different perspectives. In truth I know that I will have to address this with them. My mate is insisting that I do it in person, he feels its the best way and it will do a lot for my confidence. Coming out is really such an odd thing, I think the first time, it really cements that some avenues are now closed and you must proceed with wherever this one goes.

Bazinga_N I would really love to know what goes through such parents minds aswell, I mean I got the verbal onslaught from both mine as a result of their initial reaction. But what they thought about it in the successive weeks and months is a mystery to me because it was a no go area. They ask me about girls once in a while and I always reply the same; 'nope'. Without getting all religious up in here, it is clear to see the correlation between the power and presence of the Catholic Church in Ireland and sexual oppression in the country, which is only intensified for gay people. The shame it instills at such a young age for anyone in a religious environment is hard to overcome and I give credit to those who 'get over it' so as to say.

georgesstreet, I think innevitably I must come out, for the sake of my own sense of self and for my relationship with them which is great on most other grounds. Shortly before I left for Australia, apparently my sister asked my friends if I was gay and this was just before I came out to them. She also asked me one day in the car, said that Mom was asking her, I just said no and that I'm private with regards to that sort of stuff ye know like

I really like your last paragraph by the way, struck a chord

Beruthiel · 31-10-2013 11:11am

lucasmaximus wrote: »

I intend to travel home soon either for a visit or to study but am really at a loss as of what to do about my parents who are great in other ways. I also feel quite resentful and angry with them that they never ever offered support or try to open a dialogue with me about it knowing that there reactions had made me far too sheepish to bring it up again.

I have a daughter just a little older than you so I'm going to talk from the parenting point of view.

Considering the fact that your parents are probably around my age, I find it quite shocking that they could be so intolerant, so backwards in their thinking and above all, (and this is what gets me the most), that they could not look at you, their son, with any kind of love or empathy and try to understand you.

That they would back you into a corner, make you feel ashamed to be your true self and basically do their level best to ruin your life.
A weaker child might have buckled under such strain and done major damage to themselves.

Now, maybe they didn't think that this is what they were doing, but if you give it any kind of reflection at all, you would surely come to the conclusion that telling your child that they should be ashamed of themselves on a regular basis has repercussions.

Were I you Lucas, I'd have no time for that kind of parent.
The kind of parent who puts their religion and bigotry as a higher importance to the happiness of their child.
That kind of thought process has always thoroughly annoyed me.

You will have to just accept that you cannot change them.
You will have to accept the fact that they might be your parents, that they love you in their own way, but they are far from perfect.

You must follow your own path.
Follow your own dreams and be the person you want to be.
Don't bother taking the thoughts of your parents into account.
It is not your problem if they cannot accept you, it is theirs.

Were I to behave towards my daughter the way that yours have towards you, she wouldn't be long telling me what she thought of my bigoted views. That's probably more down to the way I brought her up though.
You reap what you sow.

Clearly, for you to have gotten this far means you are strong and courageous.
Be proud of that fact and be happy.
Best of luck!

georgesstreet · 31-10-2013 11:31am

lucasmaximus wrote: »

georgesstreet, I think innevitably I must come out, for the sake of my own sense of self and for my relationship with them which is great on most other grounds. Shortly before I left for Australia, apparently my sister asked my friends if I was gay and this was just before I came out to them. She also asked me one day in the car, said that Mom was asking her, I just said no and that I'm private with regards to that sort of stuff ye know like I really like your last paragraph by the way, struck a chord

I don't think its up to your friends to push you to tell your parents. They may mean well but you have to judge the situation as you nkow your parents and you will have to deal with any consequences.

Having said that, if your Mom is asking your sister, then thats a sign that she cares and wants to know. The fact you didn't use that as an opportunity to tell your sister suggests you have reservations about telling them anything, for now.

Many gay guys will try to persuade you to be out, and proud and put that in your parents face. I've always believed that there is no point in telling someone something they can't cope with, and if you don't think your parents can cope with it, or your sister, then why force the issue if you prefer to keep it as it is now? Only you will know if you want to force teh issue, or not.

For some guys, when they find a partner and find love, all of this falls into place, and the parents issue at that time can be resolved by just letting them know you have a friend, then they can meet your friend, then gradually they will realise you are more than friends. In this way they are being introduced to a situation where you are happy and in love. It might be to "announce" it now will announce to them you have a problem called "homosexuality", whereas to just let them gradually learn int he way described is to present it as something wonderful and beautiful, and an addition to all your lives.

Sorry if this is not well expressed, but I've seen this work out very well on a number of occasions. Don't let yourself feel under pressure from others who encourage you to tell your parents, in they way they think you should. Only you know your parents, and if you feel they, or you, would not be comfortable with an announcement right now, then you have to decide that for yourself.

georgesstreet · 31-10-2013 11:37am

Beruthiel wrote: »

Were I you Lucas, I'd have no time for that kind of parent.

Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of choosing our parents, and you are not Lucas.

Beruthiel wrote: »

I

You will have to just accept that you cannot change them.

Really, you have no way of knowing whether his parents can change or not and I have seen many parents who have got over it despite initially being hostile. How can you possibly tell a stranger that his parents (who are also strangers) can't change?

His parents are falliable. His parents are not always right. His parents are not perfect. Just like the rest of us.

Just because his parents reaction is not what he might want or like so far, doesn't mean he should have no time for them. He has to decide for himself and shame on any of us who encourage him to have no time for his parents. If thats what he decides at some point, then thats his choice, but to try to persuade a stranger to have no time for his parents is reprehensible.

Beruthiel · 31-10-2013 11:51am

georgesstreet wrote: »

Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of choosing our parents, and you are not Lucas.

Yes. Thanks for that.

Really, you have no way of knowing whether his parents can change or not and I have seen many parents who have got over it despite initially being hostile. How can you possibly tell a stranger that his parents (who are also strangers) can't change?

I did not say they could not change.
I said he cannot change them.
Change comes from within and will be up to them whither they do so or not.
It is not up to Lucas to try and change them.

I'm not sure why you are so aggressive, but there's really no need for it.

georgesstreet · 31-10-2013 12:06pm

Beruthiel wrote: »

Yes. Thanks for that.

I did not say they could not change.
I said he cannot change them.
Change comes from within and will be up to them whither they do so or not.
It is not up to Lucas to try and change them.

I'm not sure why you are so aggressive, but there's really no need for it.

I am neither angry or aggressive, but I do feel strongly that it is reprehensible to try to encourage a stranger to have no time for his parents (who are also strangers).

None us us know if "he" can change them or not, and so why you claim you know that he can't change them is a mystery and is, at best, a guess. I have seen many situations where a sons relationship has changed his parents hitherto hostility to his homosexuality. Parents can change, and their children have the ability to influence that change in many ways, including the way I have outlined.

Annasopra · 31-10-2013 12:57pm

georgesstreet wrote: »

shame on any of us who encourage him to have no time for his parents. If thats what he decides at some point, then thats his choice, but to try to persuade a stranger to have no time for his parents is reprehensible.

The OP is looking for advice but it seems that you are looking to pick apart the advice of others in an aggressive manner. This thread is about the OP not about you. Please stick to calmly giving your own advice and not deliberately trying to pick apart the advice of others. As per the charter feedback on moderation is only dealt with by PM.

lucasmaximus · 12-11-2013 1:53pm

Apologies for not replying till now, been quite busy between this and that. Things seem to have gotten somewhat heated, so I hope everyone has regained their cool

In regards to changing my parents, I believe people are capable of change be it instigated by a third party or from within. However some people find it harder than others and of course some don't want or like change. With regards to my parents I honestly don't know what will result in me bringing up the issue. As I have been away so long this may have hastened the process of acceptance and they will be just so thrilled to have me home that nothing could be unacceptable about me, me thinks. On the other hand, they may have their fears finally realised if I come out.

From having read more stories on here in the interim of my replies and from what georgesstreet outlined, there seems to be a somewhat less favourable argument of staving off the big announcement until being in a loving relationship and I can't tell if this would be a better path or not apart from being dependent on finding someone but I wont go there haha

georgesstreet · 13-11-2013 8:22am

lucasmaximus wrote: »

From having read more stories on here in the interim of my replies and from what georgesstreet outlined, there seems to be a somewhat less favourable argument of staving off the big announcement until being in a loving relationship and I can't tell if this would be a better path or not apart from being dependent on finding someone but I wont go there haha

For some it's also just a lot easier to let others, especially parents, know that you are happy and in love and have a wonderful partner, and in so doing they know for certain by your choice of partner that you are gay, or maybe bi.

Of course these are things we have to decide for ourselves, but you are the same person they have known since the day you were born, and in the (thankfully) rare event of them reacting in a hostile or angry manner, you will have the security of knowing that your love for your partner, and your partners love for you, trumps your parents reaction. For many, it's harder to cope with a hostile reaction when you're single.

Thankfully, a hostile reaction is becoming more and more rare, as society in general in Ireland thinks to be gay is to be normal.

floggg · 13-11-2013 4:24pm

georgesstreet wrote: »

For some it's also just a lot easier to let others, especially parents, know that you are happy and in love and have a wonderful partner, and in so doing they know for certain by your choice of partner that you are gay, or maybe bi.

Of course these are things we have to decide for ourselves, but you are the same person they have known since the day you were born, and in the (thankfully) rare event of them reacting in a hostile or angry manner, you will have the security of knowing that your love for your partner, and your partners love for you, trumps your parents reaction. For many, it's harder to cope with a hostile reaction when you're single.

Thankfully, a hostile reaction is becoming more and more rare, as society in general in Ireland thinks to be gay is to be normal.

To be honest, i think this approach is probably a lot harder to achieve for most people then made out here, and probably wouldn't do anything for the OP.

The OP recognises himself that being closeted can have a big affect on your behaviour and ability to get into a proper relationship. He seems to be acknowledging himself that it's holding him back to a degree.

It's much harder to find somebody when in the closet and much harder to keep them. there are certainly lots of relationships which survive the closet, but many more fail because one or both has to hide part of themselves and hide their relationship.

So I would say the merits of this approach are depending on who you would rather make happy - your parents or yourself.

And I don't think anybody would tell somebody to come out just to spite their parents and rub it in their face. They tell them to come out because they want them to be happy and to be able to live their lives.

I spent long enough in the closet to know the toll it can take.

For me, I think in these situations you should focus (as much as practicable) on making yourself happy.

The way I seeit, if your parents love you unconditionally, they will want to see you happy and will come around eventually. It might take a while but they will get there. And so assuming you are ready to do so, the sooner you come out they sooner they get over it.

On the other hand, if they would rather cling to their old prejudices and beliefs rather than to work on coming around to accepting you and seeing you happy, then you have to ask do they deserve the sacrifice that would be required of you if you are to put your life on hold for their sake?

If they don't value your happiness, why should you put so high a value on their happiness that you sacrifice their own.

Of course, i don't know how they will react and whether it will go good or bad. I would love to say it will go great, but I can't make any guarantees.

I think though you recognise yourself that this is something you will have to do for your own sanity eventually. And they clearly have already been forewarned as to the possibility, so putting it off longer likely won't change anything for them.

So i think the question is really do you think you are ready for it? there's no right or wrong answer on this, and when and how you do it is entirely up to you. But I think your needs should be the primary consideration when deciding when to do it.

As to the how (if that's what you decide), I wonder in this sort of scenario would a forewarning by way of letter help? I'm not saying to hid behind it, but I think it might be helpful to get what you want to say down on paper and give them time to consider before discussing it with them face to face.

if they have strong opinions on the matter, your words might have more effect if they can digest them a bit before commenting, and maybe avoid the type of reaction they had in the past.

You'd probably know best how that would play with them though and whether a face to face might be more effective.

I'd maybe decide your future plans (come home or back to Oz) before you decide anything as well, as that might have a bearing on when and how you tell them. If you plan on being in Oz for a while, you can probably have the best of both worlds in a way, in that you can be relatively open there and find your feet. You'd only have to be in the closet for the odd phone call home.

georgesstreet · 13-11-2013 8:02pm

floggg wrote: »

To be honest, i think this approach is probably a lot harder to achieve for most people then made out here, and probably wouldn't do anything for the OP.

The OP recognises himself that being closeted can have a big affect on your behaviour and ability to get into a proper relationship. He seems to be acknowledging himself that it's holding him back to a degree.

It's much harder to find somebody when in the closet and much harder to keep them. there are certainly lots of relationships which survive the closet, but many more fail because one or both has to hide part of themselves and hide their relationship.

Not telling your parents does not mean being in the closet. You may well be right in your judgment of the OP's future, but you may also not be right.

My point is that when one falls in love, it really puts ones parents reaction into a better perspective, and also enables one to cope with whatever reaction they will have.

Whether anyone "hides" part of themselves in a relationship is not dependent on whether or not ones parents or family are aware of ones sexual preferences.

Annasopra · 14-11-2013 8:00am

lucasmaximus wrote: »

Apologies for not replying till now, been quite busy between this and that. Things seem to have gotten somewhat heated, so I hope everyone has regained their cool

In regards to changing my parents, I believe people are capable of change be it instigated by a third party or from within. However some people find it harder than others and of course some don't want or like change. With regards to my parents I honestly don't know what will result in me bringing up the issue. As I have been away so long this may have hastened the process of acceptance and they will be just so thrilled to have me home that nothing could be unacceptable about me, me thinks. On the other hand, they may have their fears finally realised if I come out.

From having read more stories on here in the interim of my replies and from what georgesstreet outlined, there seems to be a somewhat less favourable argument of staving off the big announcement until being in a loving relationship and I can't tell if this would be a better path or not apart from being dependent on finding someone but I wont go there haha

That seems really ludicrous to me to be honest. Why on earth would you wait to be in a relationship until you speak to your parents? I honestly don't understand why anyone would do this?

georgesstreet · 14-11-2013 8:13am

mango salsa wrote: »

That seems really ludicrous to me to be honest. Why on earth would you wait to be in a relationship until you speak to your parents? I honestly don't understand why anyone would do this?

People are different and not everyone has the same experience or relationship with their parents you might have, or have had.

If you don't understand that for some people its easier to face possible parental disapproval or a bad reaction from within the loving comfort of a relationship, then you don't understand that.

We are all different, and there is no compulsion to understand each other.

Annasopra · 14-11-2013 8:19am

georgesstreet wrote: »

People are different and not everyone has the same experience or relationship with their parents you might have, or have had.

If you don't understand that for some people its easier to face possible parental disapproval or a bad reaction from within the loving comfort of a relationship, then you don't understand that.

We are all different, and there is no compulsion to understand each other.

I don't understand and to me it suggests some sort of insecurity in oneself.

georgesstreet · 14-11-2013 8:24am

mango salsa wrote: »

I don't understand and to me it suggests some sort of insecurity in oneself.

We are all different and you have already said you don't understand. You say it suggests some sort of "insecurity" and imply that insecurity is some sort of character flaw. I don't go in for amateur psychology myself and really have no idea what "insecurity in oneself" means, but we are as we are.

Annasopra · 14-11-2013 8:48am

georgesstreet wrote: »

We are all different and you have already said you don't understand. You say it suggests some sort of "insecurity" and imply that insecurity is some sort of character flaw. I don't go in for amateur psychology myself and really have no idea what "insecurity in oneself" means, but we are as we are.

Thanks. My views on this are clear so I don't see the point of getting into a tangental off topic debate on the issue.

ongarboy · 14-11-2013 8:02pm

There are many LGBT individuals of all ages who don't or have never enjoyed the privilege of falling in love or being in secure or loving relationships. I would think it would be tragic if they felt they couldn't or shouldn't come out until they were in a relationship. I agree that one should have loving or caring friends or family around them for support during something as major as coming out so they can turn to and rely on them for comfort should the coming out experience be difficult for them. Having a good friend or sibling is just as valuable as a partner or soul mate during life's rockier ordeals.

georgesstreet · 15-11-2013 10:44am

ongarboy wrote: »

There are many LGBT individuals of all ages who don't or have never enjoyed the privilege of falling in love or being in secure or loving relationships. I would think it would be tragic if they felt they couldn't or shouldn't come out until they were in a relationship. I agree that one should have loving or caring friends or family around them for support during something as major as coming out so they can turn to and rely on them for comfort should the coming out experience be difficult for them. Having a good friend or sibling is just as valuable as a partner or soul mate during life's rockier ordeals.

There are many people who don't form relationships, both gay and str8.
However, I have heard it said that a man who knows what he wants usually finds it, and that a man who doesn't know what he wants usually finds that too...

It's up to each of us to make that decision for ourselves, and simply because some others have not formed a relationship is not a reason for us to do something at a time when we may not be comfortable.

I have siblings and a partner and I disagree that the relationship with my siblings is just as valuable, or less valuable, than that with my partner. It's not a matter of "value" but a matter of support, and many siblings have themselves formed relationships and are not available to give the same level of support one can offer, or receive, from a partner.

Annasopra · 15-11-2013 11:15am

Please keep this discussion to giving advice to the OP

Feedback Appreciated :)

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