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Teenage girl dies on street from peanut allergy

24567…34

Comments

  • #32
    Stone Deaf 4evr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭Stone Deaf 4evr


    DannieHasAFanny wrote: »
    Doesn't work that way, if the shot kills you then you would have died a long time ago.

    When i was first diagnosed as hyper something or other sensitive to nuts (the smell makes me sick) I asked the doc what would happen if i thought i was having an attack and took it but i wasn't actually having an attack.

    Nothing happens bar you get an adrenaline rush. The same natural reaction that happens when you get scared or go on a roller coaster or have to run away from the guards.

    All it is is a more concentrated dose being injected into muscles. You won't die from the shot as your own body would have killed you long long ago


    Its unfair to expect a pharmacist to have that kind of information off the top of their head though. Its a terribly sad thing to happen, and so close to christmas as well.


  • #33
    Gyalist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    Aestivalis wrote: »
    In Dublin on a wednesday evening, it would fair out a lot better than the rest of the country.
    Plus, ambulances have trained paramedics with medication and equipment to deal with it. Rather than bundling somebody into a taxi and hoping for the best as you drag them into the a&e reception 15 mins later.

    Not only this, but once the call for the ambulance is made the hospital begins to prepare for resuscitation, or that is my experience when my son was taken to Crumlin a few years ago. He bypassed triage to where a teams of medics had already prepared for his arrival.


  • #34
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    DannieHasAFanny wrote: »
    Doesn't work that way, if the shot kills you then you would have died a long time ago.

    When i was first diagnosed as hyper something or other sensitive to nuts (the smell makes me sick) I asked the doc what would happen if i thought i was having an attack and took it but i wasn't actually having an attack.

    Nothing happens bar you get an adrenaline rush. The same natural reaction that happens when you get scared or go on a roller coaster or have to run away from the guards.

    All it is is a more concentrated dose being injected into muscles. You won't die from the shot as your own body would have killed you long long ago

    There is a danger though with the shot used improperly e.g intravenously instantly, killing you. I can't think of many medications that go into that category.


  • #35
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    Jernal wrote: »
    There is a danger though with the shot used improperly e.g intravenously instantly, killing you. I can't think of many medications that go into that category.
    Is there only specifc places the shot can be given? With bad results otherwise?


  • #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    camel jockey wrote: »
    :rolleyes:
    camel jockey wrote: »
    Thanks. The comment I quoted was so stupid I couldn't think of anything to say, so I let the smilie do the talking.

    The smiley made your post look a lot more stupid than his.

    If a comment is "so stupid", try challenging it intelligently.


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  • #37
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    DannieHasAFanny wrote: »
    we do have a good Samaritan law, thats the thing

    http://www.thejournal.ie/new-civil-law-bill-might-just-make-us-nicer-people-163046-Jun2011/

    http://www.imt.ie/opinion/2012/02/new-protection-for-volunteers-and-good-samaritans.html

    thanks for that I hadn't realised that

    I'm not sure it covers a situation like that which occured yesterday though - i.e. allowing someone to dispense emergency medicine.

    Be interesting to here more about that though.


  • #38
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    camel jockey wrote: »
    Thanks. The comment I quoted was so stupid I couldn't think of anything to say, so I let the smilie do the talking.

    What was stupid about it?


  • #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,505 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DannieHasAFanny wrote: »
    its stupid how people are afraid of getting sued or whatever if they do something without permission.
    It's not the scared person's fault, it's the fault of the people who would sue you even if you were saving their life without permission. Anyway, it's not all about suing, there's also the possibility that there's been a misdiagnosis, or that you're being manipulated.
    DannieHasAFanny wrote: »
    Nothing happens bar you get an adrenaline rush. The same natural reaction that happens when you get scared or go on a roller coaster or have to run away from the guards.

    All it is is a more concentrated dose being injected into muscles. You won't die from the shot as your own body would have killed you long long ago
    But you're looking at peanut allergy vs. no peanut allergy. What if the person looks like they're having anaphylactic shock but is in fact suffering from something else. Adrenaline can be very dangerous in some circumstances. Not if you're healthy, but surely if you're in a situation where someone is considering giving you an epipen shot and you're not having an allergy reaction there must be something else very wrong.


  • #40
    ibarelycare
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,456 ✭✭✭✭ibarelycare


    I was on O'Connell Street the other night just as the fire engine was arriving, the poor girl was dying while surrounded by crowds of gawkers :( At the time I thought it was an old person who had collapsed while shopping, but I was so sad this morning to read that a 14-year-old had died.

    My heart goes out to the family, and to the pharmacist, although I feel that they really should have been able to help.


  • #41
    Ocean Blue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 612 ✭✭✭Ocean Blue


    Gyalist wrote: »
    Not only this, but once the call for the ambulance is made the hospital begins to prepare for resucitation, or that is my experience when my son was taken to Crumlin a few years ago. He bypassed triage to where a teams of medics had already prepared for his arrival.

    If you inform 999 that there is a case of anaphylaxis it is automatically treated as a priority call and paramedics will be ready to go with adrenaline.


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  • #42
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    If I was the pharmacist I would have said 'This is an epipen, your daughter should have one, we can't release it without prescription' and then left it on the counter and turned my back and whistled a happy tune while she ran out of the shop with it.


  • #43
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Taxi would be quicker than an ambulance.

    Taxis dont have trained paramedics or the ability to go through red lights. When you make an emergency call, the nature of the emergency is detailed to the department the ambulance will be bringing you to so if it is a situation where time is a factor, the staff will already be prepared for your arrival. Meanwhile in the ambulance the paramedics will be providing emergency care (in this case they would have administered the injection immediately).

    If you take a taxi, you are at the mercy of walking into A&E with no one expecting you, no one knowing anything about your condition, a queue of people ahead of you at the reception desk etc...


  • #44
    truebluesac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 406 ✭✭truebluesac


    Im a paramedic and am involved with pharmisist training and this is a true tragidey of circumstances ,

    Yes the girl and / parents should have had the medication .

    Pharmisists have slight medical oversight and could have dispensed this medication . However they are not all train in their use and are not allowed to administer this medidication ( some are who carried out the influenza vacination program )

    The pharmacy most likely has a policy of no medications being despenced without a perscription with no exception .

    An ambulace should have been called as epi is a carried and administered drug by paramedics .

    Anyway a tragady all the same . Rest in peace


  • #45
    Eight Ball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 906 ✭✭✭Eight Ball


    R.I.P. The poor little thing god only knows how the parents feel.


  • #46
    camel jockey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭camel jockey


    Jernal wrote: »
    What was stupid about it?

    I would have thought it was fairly obvious. The reason people are afraid of being sued is because there is a risk of it happening, and they want to mitigate the risk. You may not sue but the next person might. Why should that person or the organization risk suffering financially as a result of saving your life? So they get people to sigh waivers. If they didn't then someone might sue.

    If the world wasn't full of chancers and scumbags then there would be no need for this, but it is, so there is a need for it.


  • #47
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Plazaman wrote: »
    Prescription needed pharmacy assistant should be brought to task on this. An obvious emergency overrides all bureaucracy.
    You don't know it was an obvious emergency though.

    We'd all like to think that we'd spot it straight away, but if the girl didn't look like she was specifically in need of an epipen, then the pharmacist (let's be honest it could have been an 18 year old behind the counter) can't really risk handing out an epi shot lest it make her condition worse.

    It's especially difficult given the location, I'm sure pharmacies on O'Connell St spend their days fending off very convincing attempts by junkies to scam medication.

    What's probably required is some form of alert system, like medic alert bracelets where someone with an allergy can present a card at a pharmacy and the pharmacist will administer the shot.

    A difficult tragedy alright, especially given how avoidable it was.


  • #48
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Riskymove wrote: »
    thanks for that I hadn't realised that

    I'm not sure it covers a situation like that which occured yesterday though - i.e. allowing someone to dispense emergency medicine.

    Be interesting to here more about that though.

    At most I'd say they could have used it on the girl themselves but I'm not sure if they are trained for that or if its just because my aunt works with chemo sometimes she is trained in injecting medicine.


  • #49
    Theta
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭Theta


    DannieHasAFanny wrote: »

    When i was first diagnosed as hyper something or other sensitive to nuts (the smell makes me sick) I asked the doc what would happen if i thought i was having an attack and took it but i wasn't actually having an attack.

    First Aiders aren't even supposed to administer someones inhaler, your supposed to hand it to them and "assist"


  • #50
    truebluesac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 406 ✭✭truebluesac


    username123 wrote: »
    Taxis dont have trained paramedics or the ability to go through red lights. When you make an emergency call, the nature of the emergency is detailed to the department the ambulance will be bringing you to so if it is a situation where time is a factor, the staff will already be prepared for your arrival. Meanwhile in the ambulance the paramedics will be providing emergency care (in this case they would have administered the injection immediately).

    If you take a taxi, you are at the mercy of walking into A&E with no one expecting you, no one knowing anything about your condition, a queue of people ahead of you at the reception desk etc...

    The a&e are only told by the controle room if the ambulance deems it is nessary . If you arrive by ambulance for anything other than a life saving aliment you are triaged like everyone else . This case however would have been rang ahead and a team waiting in the resus


  • #51
    danniemcq
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭danniemcq


    Jernal wrote: »
    There is a danger though with the shot used improperly e.g intravenously instantly, killing you. I can't think of many medications that go into that category.

    Its pretty damn hard to mess up one of these shots (granted someone would roughly have to know where it has to go) but the fleshy part of the thigh is where its jammed (the needle is fairly small enough to go through a pair of jeans really) and the button pressed down for 10 seconds.

    IIRC there are some allergies (shellfish) that require a pulp fiction style needle in the heart


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  • #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    If I was the pharmacist I would have said 'This is an epipen, your daughter should have one, we can't release it without prescription' and then left it on the counter and turned my back and whistled a happy tune while she ran out of the shop with it.
    No, no no no! The book, ya gotta follow the book!
    username123 wrote: »
    Taxis dont have trained paramedics or the ability to go through red lights. When you make an emergency call, the nature of the emergency is detailed to the department the ambulance will be bringing you to so if it is a situation where time is a factor, the staff will already be prepared for your arrival. Meanwhile in the ambulance the paramedics will be providing emergency care (in this case they would have administered the injection immediately).
    After past experience I'm never, ever calling an ambulance again. Never have they arrived quicker than a taxi would've gotten the person to the hospital.
    If you take a taxi, you are at the mercy of walking into A&E with no one expecting you, no one knowing anything about your condition, a queue of people ahead of you at the reception desk etc...
    It's an epipen, it's not going to be hard to locate.


  • #53
    stoneill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭stoneill


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    I would have gone in over the counter and faced the consequences later

    I think I would have done the same -
    It also raises a question about duty of care from a pharmacy not giving vital help to a dying person. To my mind the pharmacy should have given the life saving epi pen and not let her die and worry about the consequences later.

    My deepest sympathy to family and friends Emma Sloan.


  • #54
    Spring Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    Very very sad.

    Something tells me that if this happened anywhere else apart from O'Connell St, the pharmacy would have given the adrenalin shot.


  • #55
    Gone Drinking
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Gone Drinking


    If the chemist had seen the child really struggling to breath or stop breathing completely, they probably would have given the mother the injection because at that point it was life or death.

    But then again, lets say the child was having an undiagnosed asthma attack and the chemist gave the mother the injection and it only made it worse or killed her. The chemist probably would have been up on criminal charges.

    Very very sad, I feel so much for the family. I also feel for the staff that said no, technically and legally they did the right thing but that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.


  • #56
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    DannieHasAFanny wrote: »
    IIRC there are some allergies (shellfish) that require a pulp fiction style needle in the heart

    I could do the leg one but not a hope of that :o


  • #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's an absolute tragedy one way or the other, the first reaction is to be so angry at the pharmacist but we don't know the full details yet and I'm sure the poor staff member is suffering today as well as the family.

    A horrible situation for all involved. There's no good time of year to lose a child but days before Christmas when the world around you continues in laughter and good cheer is arguably the worst.

    RIP


  • #58
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    stoneill wrote: »
    I think I would have done the same -
    It also raises a question about duty of care from a pharmacy not giving vital help to a dying person. To my mind the pharmacy should have given the life saving epi pen and not let her die and worry about the consequences later.
    If you read the article, it would appear that the mother went into the pharmacy on her own and asked for the epipen. The pharmacist didn't see Emma at all.

    Not the mother's fault at all, she was just going on reflex, but you see how the pharmacist wouldn't give the situation the urgency it deserved.


  • #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,505 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    seamus wrote: »
    We'd all like to think that we'd spot it straight away, but if the girl didn't look like she was specifically in need of an epipen, then the pharmacist (let's be honest it could have been an 18 year old behind the counter) can't really risk handing out an epi shot lest it make her condition worse.
    Agreed, but from how I read the article it seems the mother rushed to the pharmacy herself - I don't think they ever even saw Emma.
    stoneill wrote: »
    It also raises a question about duty of care from a pharmacy not giving vital help to a dying person. To my mind the pharmacy should have given the life saving epi pen and not let her die and worry about the consequences later.
    But they had no way to know that it was a life-saving epipen.


  • #60
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    DannieHasAFanny wrote: »
    Its pretty damn hard to mess up one of these shots (granted someone would roughly have to know where it has to go) but the fleshy part of the thigh is where its jammed (the needle is fairly small enough to go through a pair of jeans really) and the button pressed down for 10 seconds.
    I don't dispute that. The point is though that the injection can kill you if you strike it through a vein. Rare and odd as that might be to happen. Few medicines fall into that category of being fatal almost instantly.


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  • #61
    Aestivalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 202 ✭✭Aestivalis


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No, no no no! The book, ya gotta follow the book!

    After past experience I'm never, ever calling an ambulance again. Never have they arrived quicker than a taxi would've gotten the person to the hospital.

    It's an epipen, it's not going to be hard to locate.


    Fair enough. But just remember, in an emergency like this not calling for an ambulance, and trying to walk the girl to the hospital ultimately delayed treatment with dire consequences.
    Not calling for an ambulance has to be the most naive thing anybody can do during a medical emergency. In dublin city I reckon it would have been there in 10-15 minutes.


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