The need for a well resourced transport police

Kermit.de.frog · 09-04-2015 08:20PM #1

Another day, another incident of aggressive anti social behaviour at one of our transport nodes.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dart-services-halted-over-antisocial-behaviour-at-station-31130383.html

We all know about the Luas and Dublin Bus as well. Unfortunately most incidents happen with absolute impunity because we don't have an adequate level of security on public transport (nor in everyday life but that's another matter for the Gardaí and Minister for Justice to explain).

It's past time we had a well resourced transport police that is specifically for any incident like this and on public transport generally.

What I can not understand, given the very serious incidents that are occurring on public transport in this city on a daily basis, why there does not seem to be any talk of a dedicated transport police at any level whether political or from the Gardaí.

Is the above what the unfortunates that live near these stations are condemned to every time the sun comes out? Is harassment and intimidation on the red Luas line or at various well known locations just treated as a fact of life?

I don't see any momentum at all toward ensuring public safety and defacto comfort on public transport.

Whether it is open drug use, smoking, drunks or low level anti social behaviour I don't see why it is being accepted to the level it is. And it is getting worse.

A transport police is not a panacea obviously but it might go a long way to assuage the fare paying public.

the dark phantom · 09-04-2015 08:25PM

Price of tickets will go up to help pay for it so that's a No from me.

Seeing drunks on a bus or junkies on a Luas is just part of the Ireland experience.

Kermit.de.frog · 09-04-2015 08:40PM

I don't think continuing to allow things to deteriorate is an option either.

aidanathome · 09-04-2015 08:47PM

In fairness, I don't think we've an extensive enough public transport system to call for a dedicated public transport police.
I think we just need more Gardai, and if they have to be assigned to public transport duties from time to time, that should be enough... can't see it happening anytime soon though.

Hilly Bill · 09-04-2015 09:32PM

These incidents like we see in howth and sutton could easily be stopped at the start if Irish Rail are serious about tackling it.
You just know its going to happen again especially at the end of the exams. Proper checks by staff and security at entry points like Pearse , Connolly, Howth , sutton etc would easily knock it on the head. No drink allowed on trains but plenty bring cases of beer out to howth , stop this at the barriers. Keep the side gate in Howth locked and manned with security on days when a large crowd of youths are gathering in the one place and have security and staff on the main door . You can limit the amount that travel on each train instead of having a train full of drunken teens travelling back together causing aggro.

stehyl15 · 09-04-2015 09:36PM

Why do Irish Rail have their head up their arse about vandalism particulary about station and trains looks they are always going to get graffited seats are always going to be slashed but only waste money repairing them when the wheels stop moving. I want a fast frequet service and I dont care if the trains and stations are in bits. Once I get where I need to go on time.

Hilly Bill · 09-04-2015 09:53PM

stehyl15 wrote: »

Why do Irish Rail have their head up their arse about vandalism particulary about station and trains looks they are always going to get graffited seats are always going to be slashed but only waste money repairing them when the wheels stop moving. I want a fast frequet service and I dont care if the trains and stations are in bits. Once I get where I need to go on time.

Try repairing a train when the wheels are still turning

.

Kermit.de.frog · 09-04-2015 10:30PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-called-as-about-50-youths-disrupt-dart-from-howth-1.2170701?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Fgarda%25C3%25AD-called-as-about-50-youths-disrupt-dart-from-howth-1.2170701

No arrests. Quell surprise.

coylemj · 10-04-2015 12:21AM

Hmmmmmm, a 'well resourced' transport police??? Paid for by who?

Ok, let's see. We'll need a new head office, we'll have to recruit a police commissioner, various supervisory grades, a HR manager, an IT manager and an operations manager. We'll have to tender for various supplies, including stationary, office furniture and for 'ancilliary' activities.

Then (lest we're seen to be discriminatory), we'll have to deploy the same level of staff on law-abiding sections of the network as we do on the 'problem' sections. That means that the free travel pensioners on the Limerick to Waterford line will need to be policed in case there's riots in Carrick on Suir and so that the folk on the Luas red line don't feel that we're giving them a bad name by flooding them with transport police.

And so it goes.

end of the road · 10-04-2015 02:42PM

stehyl15 wrote: »

Why do Irish Rail have their head up their arse about vandalism particulary about station and trains looks they are always going to get graffited seats are always going to be slashed but only waste money repairing them when the wheels stop moving.

when and how do you think they are going to repair them if they can't be brought to the depot for repair. do you expect them to repair while the trains are moving? or even worse, not bother repairing them? look how that worked out.

stehyl15 wrote: »

I want a fast frequent service and I dont care if the trains and stations are in bits. Once I get where I need to go on time.

well, if the trains are in bits, you definitely won't be getting a fast frequent service. at least with them in good condition, you will have a chance. stations being in bits is a no no

stehyl15 · 10-04-2015 03:48PM

end of the road wrote: »

stations being in bits is a no no

How exactly what i also mean is that i dont mind if the trains are dirty and graffitied since their only short distance and not intercity also i think it would be good to replace seats with plastic seats on buses and short distance trains

LXFlyer · 10-04-2015 04:29PM

stehyl15 wrote: »

How exactly what i also mean is that i dont mind if the trains are dirty and graffitied since their only short distance and not intercity also i think it would be good to replace seats with plastic seats on buses and short distance trains

I think you will find yourself in a minority position then.

If people are to be attracted to public transport from their cars, then the stations, buses and trains have to be clean and comfortable.

Reading your posts, you don't seem to care about quite a lot of things. Thankfully for the rest of us, that view is not the one that holds much sway.

stehyl15 · 10-04-2015 05:11PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Reading your posts, you don't seem to care about quite a lot of things. Thankfully for the rest of us, that view is not the one that holds much sway.

No it could be made cheap like in Italy on the Rome suburban network some adult tickets can cost as little as €1 once you can once you can put up with graffiti and dirty trains and some stations smell like piss

cdebru · 10-04-2015 05:30PM

coylemj wrote: »

Hmmmmmm, a 'well resourced' transport police??? Paid for by who?

Ok, let's see. We'll need a new head office, we'll have to recruit a police commissioner, various supervisory grades, a HR manager, an IT manager and an operations manager. We'll have to tender for various supplies, including stationary, office furniture and for 'ancilliary' activities.

Then (lest we're seen to be discriminatory), we'll have to deploy the same level of staff on law-abiding sections of the network as we do on the 'problem' sections. That means that the free travel pensioners on the Limerick to Waterford line will need to be policed in case there's riots in Carrick on Suir and so that the folk on the Luas red line don't feel that we're giving them a bad name by flooding them with transport police.

And so it goes.

Why would you need all that ? Was all that put in place for the traffic corp ? Why would it need to be completely separate from the Gardai ? I think some people like to over complicate stuff as an excuse to do nothing, all we need is some Gardai ( 50, or 100 would probably do ) whose specific job is to police public transport, and the Gardai in liaison with the various public transport operators can decide where and when they need to be deployed.

end of the road · 10-04-2015 05:50PM

stehyl15 wrote: »

No it could be made cheap like in Italy on the Rome suburban network some adult tickets can cost as little as €1 once you can once you can put up with graffiti and dirty trains and some stations smell like piss

you don't get how the nature of public transport works do you. the reason those tickets are cheep in italy is not because of dirty trains and stations, its most probably because they have the population and the ridership and the subsidy to make those tickets cheep. the users probably have no option but to take the train unlike here so they can get away with those things if what you say is actually true which is doubtful. dirty trains and stations aren't going to make your fares cheep. your not getting ultra cheep fares in ireland. we cannot afford to subsidise it.

mickydoomsux · 10-04-2015 06:38PM

end of the road wrote: »

. your not getting ultra cheep fares in ireland. we cannot afford to subsidise it.

And yet, ironically, we can fund completely free all-island travel for hundreds of thousands of people

monument · 10-04-2015 10:04PM

stehyl15 wrote: »

No it could be made cheap like in Italy on the Rome suburban network some adult tickets can cost as little as €1 once you can once you can put up with graffiti and dirty trains and some stations smell like piss

Is this funded by the national government who stands over one of the EU's most long-running basket case economies or by the city of Rome described last year as teetering on the brink of bankruptcy?

Del2005 · 11-04-2015 06:38AM

cdebru wrote: »

Why would you need all that ? Was all that put in place for the traffic corp ? Why would it need to be completely separate from the Gardai ? I think some people like to over complicate stuff as an excuse to do nothing, all we need is some Gardai ( 50, or 100 would probably do ) whose specific job is to police public transport, and the Gardai in liaison with the various public transport operators can decide where and when they need to be deployed.

Have you seen what's happened to the traffic corp? I haven't seen a Garda vehicle with traffic on it in ages and even when they where "traffic corp" they were rarely dedicated so couldn't do the job they where supposed to be doing.

In reality there's no point in putting on transport police or extra security till our judicial system starts making examples out of anti social behaviour, with fines deducted from whatever income and proper community service. I'm sure the Gardaí would respond quicker if they though it would change the outcome but we all know what happens.

mikemac1 · 11-04-2015 06:47AM

stehyl15 wrote: »

No it could be made cheap like in Italy on the Rome suburban network some adult tickets can cost as little as €1 once you can once you can put up with graffiti and dirty trains and some stations smell like piss

I was almost tripping over the Roma beggars in Tiburtina station. They're everywhere

Their rail network also gouge the tourists. Express train to the airport in Rome 14 euro. Local train only two stops away 2.60 euro

Wouldn't be looking to Rome for a great service

cdebru · 11-04-2015 10:45AM

Del2005 wrote: »

Have you seen what's happened to the traffic corp? I haven't seen a Garda vehicle with traffic on it in ages and even when they where "traffic corp" they were rarely dedicated so couldn't do the job they where supposed to be doing.

In reality there's no point in putting on transport police or extra security till our judicial system starts making examples out of anti social behaviour, with fines deducted from whatever income and proper community service. I'm sure the Gardaí would respond quicker if they though it would change the outcome but we all know what happens.

So you want people punished before there is anyone to actually catch them ? Sounds like a genious idea for doing nothing.

foggy_lad · 11-04-2015 10:50AM

cdebru wrote: »

So you want people punished before there is anyone to actually catch them ? Sounds like a genious idea for doing nothing.

Why waste vast amounts of Public money on catching criminals when there are no prisons or other procedures in place to actually punish them for their manycrimes? Is that not the CIE way of doing things.

For those in favour and screaming out for transport Gardai for Ireland answer this question please - What would the transport Gardai be able to do that a normal Gardai can't? They will have no special powers AND they will have no special budget! and will mostly be out doing more important work like chasing burglars or rapists or armed robbers etc.

What is needed for Anti social behaviour on transport and elsewhere is a blanket zero tolerance of it and mandatory fines to be paid on the day or 7 days in lieu! You get arrested and put before a judge the following morning, no release on bail or other such nonsense, one phone call to try to arrange the €500 fine and that should be it! If you don't have the money for the fine you do the time, a mandatory 5/7days and the only release will be if the fine is paid in full!

howiya · 11-04-2015 10:54AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why waste vast amounts of Public money on catching criminals when there are no prisons or other procedures in place to actually punish them for their manycrimes? Is that not the CIE way of doing things,

Surprised the party of law and order (FG) haven't made more headway in areas like this. As it is now the people who commit these offences simply aren't afraid of (a) being caught or (b) what happens if they are caught.

The solution has to be twofold. Increased resources for detection and prevention and reform of the justice system so that they'll know not to do it a second time

Del2005 · 11-04-2015 11:23AM

cdebru wrote: »

So you want people punished before there is anyone to actually catch them ? Sounds like a genious idea for doing nothing.

We already have people to catch them, the Gardaí, they just don't bother doing their job now as when they do it there are no consequences for the perpetrators, but a lot of paper work for the Garda. There's no point in hiring more Gardaí, or even worst private security, if there is are no repercussions for the people they catch as is the current situation.

end of the road · 11-04-2015 01:54PM

Del2005 wrote: »

Have you seen what's happened to the traffic corp? I haven't seen a Garda vehicle with traffic on it in ages and even when they where "traffic corp" they were rarely dedicated so couldn't do the job they where supposed to be doing.

In reality there's no point in putting on transport police or extra security till our judicial system starts making examples out of anti social behaviour, with fines deducted from whatever income and proper community service. I'm sure the Gardaí would respond quicker if they though it would change the outcome but we all know what happens.

making "an example" of such people wouldn't make a difference. its all about simply punishing the person themselves, forget about deterring the rest as until they are punished themselves, seeing others punished won't stop them

stehyl15 · 11-04-2015 04:20PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

I was almost tripping over the Roma beggars in Tiburtina station.

Ah come on every large train station has beggars and drug addicts everywhere in Europe

cdebru · 11-04-2015 08:00PM

Del2005 wrote: »

We already have people to catch them, the Gardaí, they just don't bother doing their job now as when they do it there are no consequences for the perpetrators, but a lot of paper work for the Garda. There's no point in hiring more Gardaí, or even worst private security, if there is are no repercussions for the people they catch as is the current situation.

No we dont have any Gardai assigned to police public transport, none , Gardai will only board public transport if specifically called and then it may well be an hour or more before they arrive or occasionally to just use it to get a lift to a station or court etc. But our public transport is never actually policed as such which is why some people think they have free reign to behave as they wish.

cdebru · 11-04-2015 08:13PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why waste vast amounts of Public money on catching criminals when there are no prisons or other procedures in place to actually punish them for their manycrimes? Is that not the CIE way of doing things.

For those in favour and screaming out for transport Gardai for Ireland answer this question please - What would the transport Gardai be able to do that a normal Gardai can't? They will have no special powers AND they will have no special budget! and will mostly be out doing more important work like chasing burglars or rapists or armed robbers etc.

What is needed for Anti social behaviour on transport and elsewhere is a blanket zero tolerance of it and mandatory fines to be paid on the day or 7 days in lieu! You get arrested and put before a judge the following morning, no release on bail or other such nonsense, one phone call to try to arrange the €500 fine and that should be it! If you don't have the money for the fine you do the time, a mandatory 5/7days and the only release will be if the fine is paid in full!

AFAIK CIE do not catch criminals or place them in prison but maybe you know better.

So why should the Gardai bother with rapists and burgulars and murderers ? Won't they all just get off any way, and you don't seem to comprehend the seriousness of some offences that are being committed on public transport, including serious assaults, sexual assaults, stabbings, muggings, robbery etc it is not just some 15 year old with a marker writing his name on the back of a seat.

And to answer your question they wouldn't be able to do anything that another Garda can do, the difference is they would be specifically be assigned to police public transport as currently NO Gardai routinely police any aspect of public transport, none so it is a free for all for those who know that it is a Garda free zone.

But you keep fantasizing about your zero tolerance, lock em up and keep them in a dungeon policy that will never happen, again you fail to realize or understand that prison is not a deterrent for these people, they dont care prison is a warm bed and 3 square meals they usually emerge from prison in much better condition than they went in. The only benefit is the rest of us get a brief respite from their criminality for a while, but dont think any of them are living in fear of prison they aren't.

Infini · 12-04-2015 05:17PM

Tbh a transport police is needed expecially in certain parts. As one who works in the rail myself I can tell you first hand that the lack of staff has led to a significant increase in anti-social behavior. Not only that but in several cases theyre getting more VIOLENT aka knife/death threats. What happened on the luas on the green line is a rare example of someone being stupid enough to do it but at the same time if theyre not reined in on the lesser stuff then it starts escalating over time. In general more money needs to be put into law enforcement across the board as well because its only getting worse.

18MonthsaSlave · 13-04-2015 09:05AM

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-luas-security-heroes-who-saved-mans-life-say-they-would-do-right-thing-again-31137573.html

Look at the size of those guys and they still got knifed by some scrote.

whisky_galore · 13-04-2015 10:42AM

Infini2 wrote: »

Tbh a transport police is needed expecially in certain parts. As one who works in the rail myself I can tell you first hand that the lack of staff has led to a significant increase in anti-social behavior. Not only that but in several cases theyre getting more VIOLENT aka knife/death threats. What happened on the luas on the green line is a rare example of someone being stupid enough to do it but at the same time if theyre not reined in on the lesser stuff then it starts escalating over time. In general more money needs to be put into law enforcement across the board as well because its only getting worse.

You're onto something there. The criminal justice system is clearly broken when it doesn't act as a deterrent to people who are worse than wild animals. Think the Gardai can handle it if the system is fixed (if that EVER happens :rolleyes:) and they're given the funding and tools to do so, instead of establishing a half-assed transport police as a window dressing exercise.

howiya · 13-04-2015 11:47AM

Infini2 wrote: »

Tbh a transport police is needed expecially in certain parts. As one who works in the rail myself I can tell you first hand that the lack of staff has led to a significant increase in anti-social behavior. Not only that but in several cases theyre getting more VIOLENT aka knife/death threats. What happened on the luas on the green line is a rare example of someone being stupid enough to do it but at the same time if theyre not reined in on the lesser stuff then it starts escalating over time. In general more money needs to be put into law enforcement across the board as well because its only getting worse.

If the increase in anti-social behaviour is directly linked to a lack of staff, surely it would be cheaper for the government to employ more staff than resource a separate transport police?

foggy_lad · 13-04-2015 12:06PM

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-luas-security-heroes-who-saved-mans-life-say-they-would-do-right-thing-again-31137573.html

Look at the size of those guys and they still got knifed by some scrote.

A lot can happen in a couple of seconds when people taking part in a frenzied attack are disturbed! to suggest these STT employees were in some way remiss or in any way responsible for their own injury is not acceptable.

whisky_galore · 13-04-2015 12:35PM

howiya wrote: »

If the increase in anti-social behaviour is directly linked to a lack of staff, surely it would be cheaper for the government to employ more staff than resource a separate transport police?

The presence of staff might discourage some elements, say petty vandals, sorry 'street artists':pac:, but not so much the hardcore scumbags.

Dyr · 13-04-2015 01:39PM

If we actually had a strategy to deal with heroin addiction in this country we'd probably free up enough police resources to have a transport police. Something that's desperately needed on certain services

whisky_galore · 13-04-2015 01:49PM

Bambi wrote: »

If we actually had a strategy to deal with heroin addiction in this country we'd probably free up enough police resources to have a transport police. Something that's desperately needed on certain services

Giving out free needles/syringes like they do in other countries is looked upon as facilitating drug use and not exactly a vote-getter. Simply moving the treatment centres just moves the problem elsewhere.

Dyr · 13-04-2015 02:09PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Giving out free needles/syringes like they do in other countries is looked upon as facilitating drug use and not exactly a vote-getter. Simply moving the treatment centres just moves the problem elsewhere.

Start giving out heroin with the free needles and you put an end to most of the petty crime in dublin

whisky_galore · 13-04-2015 02:16PM

Bambi wrote: »

Start giving out heroin with the free needles and you put an end to most of the petty crime in dublin

It probably would, but sure we'll carry on with the same drugs strategy and expect different results.

stehyl15 · 14-04-2015 11:01PM

I think its a sad reflection on Irish society that we have to employ security on public transport what other country employs private security on tram and trains.

Infini · 15-04-2015 12:06AM

howiya wrote: »

If the increase in anti-social behaviour is directly linked to a lack of staff, surely it would be cheaper for the government to employ more staff than resource a separate transport police?

Unfortunately they're intent these days of running the place into the ground so they can sell it off from what I've seen the last few years. Only have to look at how they've starved the place of cash and not bothered to bring the wasters to heel.

whisky_galore · 15-04-2015 06:53AM

stehyl15 wrote: »

I think its a sad reflection on Irish society that we have to employ security on public transport what other country employs private security on tram and trains.

Er, loads of places actually. We don't have a monopoly on wasters.

end of the road · 15-04-2015 01:02PM

stehyl15 wrote: »

I think its a sad reflection on Irish society that we have to employ security on public transport what other country employs private security on tram and trains.

whatever about suburban rail services, ireland seems to be the only country i know of who apart from the driver, has nobody else aboard the train at all times

The need for a well resourced transport police

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