new suckler scheme

whelan2 · 20-05-2015 6:46pm #1

will you be taking part in the new suckler scheme?

whelan2 · 20-05-2015 7:04pm

also if not why not, we are reducing numbers and in 6 years i dont see us having many sucklers

Count Mondego · 20-05-2015 7:33pm

Have around 20 and will get up to 25 or 30 in next few years. Scheme is going to cost me little enough as heifers coming up are from a 5 star maternal bull and many are 5 star. My goal at the moment is to maximise free(ish) money as much as I can. After scheme I will evaluate suckler/drystock/other enterprise. Current bull is 5 stars on both criteria. You'd get a 5 star limo bull for less than 3k, not massive money.

Edit: Never understood why people like you W2 are wasting your time with sucklers when you have a decent dairy setup. In my case I can work at a job I enjoy and gets my brain away from the farm for a few hours a week.

whelan2 · 20-05-2015 7:37pm

Count Mondego wrote: »

Have around 20 and will get up to 25 or 30 in next few years. Scheme is going to cost me little enough as heifers coming up are from a 5 star maternal bull and many are 5 star. My goal at the moment is to maximise free(ish) money as much as I can. After scheme I will evaluate suckler/drystock/other enterprise. Current bull is 5 stars on both criteria. You'd get a 5 star limo bull for less than 3k, not massive money.

Edit: Never understood why people like you W2 are wasting your time with sucklers when you have a decent dairy setup. In my case I can work at a job I enjoy and gets my brain away from the farm for a few hours a week.

sucklers are my dads not mine

Bellview · 20-05-2015 7:48pm

whelan2 wrote: »

also if not why not, we are reducing numbers and in 6 years i dont see us having many sucklers

I', ped AA so kno all the sires... too many unknowns in scheme which will only give a headache. The herd meets 2020 criteria but looking at the restriction on replacements, some of the 4/5 stars cows according to ICBF are the worst in the yard and ironically they are breeding heifers....which have all left Ireland.

i struggle how as farmers we can accept a 12% reliabilty for stars, which is basically 88% wrong

will forgo the cash to allow focus on what sells into dairy lads... more traditional easy calving angus. At sales this year dairy boys have put discount on the jumbo kings (which is what ICBF will want us to use) of approx 300 euro+ v easy calving bull

wiggy123 · 20-05-2015 7:55pm

unsure of my star ratings...re my pedigree angus herd..using 99% ai over the last 5+ years

whelan2 · 20-05-2015 7:57pm

wiggy123 wrote: »

unsure of my star ratings...re my pedigree angus herd..using 99% ai over the last 5+ years

are you on herd plus on icbf?

wiggy123 · 20-05-2015 8:01pm

am reg with icbf... but not re on herdplus.. must do..it worth it??

votuvant · 20-05-2015 8:07pm

Count Mondego wrote: »

Have around 20 and will get up to 25 or 30 in next few years. Scheme is going to cost me little enough as heifers coming up are from a 5 star maternal bull and many are 5 star. My goal at the moment is to maximise free(ish) money as much as I can. After scheme I will evaluate suckler/drystock/other enterprise. Current bull is 5 stars on both criteria. You'd get a 5 star limo bull for less than 3k, not massive money.

Edit: Never understood why people like you W2 are wasting your time with sucklers when you have a decent dairy setup. In my case I can work at a job I enjoy and gets my brain away from the farm for a few hours a week.

Pretty much the same setup as you and while I think there is a lot wrong with it I have signed up.

I can't see much of a return in sucklers but that's all that is suitable for my farm really. Whatever money is available I'll have to go for like most suckler farmers and that's what this schemes creators are relying on.

ellewood · 20-05-2015 8:10pm

Bellview wrote: »

I', ped AA so kno all the sires... too many unknowns in scheme which will only give a headache. The herd meets 2020 criteria but looking at the restriction on replacements, some of the 4/5 stars cows according to ICBF are the worst in the yard and ironically they are breeding heifers....which have all left Ireland.

i struggle how as farmers we can accept a 12% reliabilty for stars, which is basically 88% wrong

will forgo the cash to allow focus on what sells into dairy lads... more traditional easy calving angus. At sales this year dairy boys have put discount on the jumbo kings (which is what ICBF will want us to use) of approx 300 euro+ v easy calving bull

+1 on this I think most ped lads will make more on breeding what customers want to buy, rather than what icbf want to breed on paper

whelan2 · 20-05-2015 8:13pm

wiggy123 wrote: »

am reg with icbf... but not re on herdplus.. must do..it worth it??

It's 60 Euro to get herd plus

wiggy123 · 20-05-2015 8:15pm

seen that.. prob sign up

Bellview · 20-05-2015 8:19pm

wiggy123 wrote: »

seen that.. prob sign up

Worth a read alright. Pity the rel is crap though... I enjoyed looking at stats and then comparing to the cows actual performance....

dzer2 · 20-05-2015 8:20pm

No.
Have Angus and lim cows from dairy herds calving to Angus Bull and then any heifers from these to AI.

I produce quality Angus weanlings that locals buy from the farm in the Autumn leaving me a healthy cheque. Sell the cows at 4yr old.
Never being on ICBF or any of these things the least the dept know about me the better,

Mad4simmental · 20-05-2015 8:37pm

No. The ref year we had feck all so not worth joining but it may pay me in a different way as I'll hopefully be producing the 4/5* heifers everyone will want. :-)

Kovu · 20-05-2015 8:46pm

Bellview wrote: »

Worth a read alright. Pity the rel is crap though... I enjoyed looking at stats and then comparing to the cows actual performance....

I found the suckler cow report very interesting reading. Seen we have a cow that produced an E2 twin and a few single Us. As we never factory it's quite an eye opener, may start thinking about finishing some bulls instead.

valtraman · 20-05-2015 8:49pm

I recon I wont be suckling in 6 years ,late 50`s now and getting fed up having the s**t frightened out of me with lunatic cows and their progeny .Really happy with the stock I breed for growth but mad out

Dunedin · 20-05-2015 8:52pm

What is the reference year

whelan2 · 20-05-2015 8:52pm

Dunedin wrote: »

What is the reference year

2014

Dunedin · 20-05-2015 8:55pm

whelan2 wrote: »

2014

Cheers. Are you allowed reduce numbers a little or do have to maintain what you have from the reference year?

Day job getting busier by the day and suckler cow's getting madder by the year....

smokey-fitz · 20-05-2015 9:14pm

No. Getting out of sucklers due to a **** year mainly. But even if I was to stay at them I dont think I would enter the scheme. If I had a year like this one in that scheme id be screwed.

tomieen jones · 20-05-2015 9:53pm

The idea to improve the national suckler herd is great but some where along the line I feel the planners who are affiliated to various companies swerved the rules towards company gain IMO!
Just out of curiosity is there anyone on the board from Herdwatch ?

grassroot1 · 20-05-2015 11:12pm

NO
If you do not fulfill all of the requirements of the program for the full six years duration, any payments under the programme will have to be repaid to the department.
Thats the wording on the application.
If someone was on the dole and they got a job they would not be expected to repay any dole payments they received. (and rightly so) Why should we?
Take the genomic testing on 60% of the herd out of it there is not much left.
Thanks Simon but no thanks

Farmer · 20-05-2015 11:15pm

No.
* Anything can happen in 6 years to cause a change of mind, bad prices, dairy glut, personal circumstances etc.
* For low numbers not worth the hassle, and penalty risk when all the 30 euro tests and 60 euro icbf is subtracted
* As others have pointed out, stars do not always relate to better animals or more profit
*Base year figures for me are half this year's (culled cows, maiden heifers)

However, for anyone with 50 sucklers it's a no brainer. 100 euro a week and use one year's sub to buy a 4 star bull in year 5, which you'd probably be doing anyway

Edit: Grassroot1 read my thoughts and typed them much faster than I

whelan2 · 21-05-2015 6:15am

is the only way to see the star rating of your animals by signing up to herdplus?

Bellview · 21-05-2015 6:57am

whelan2 wrote: »

is the only way to see the star rating of your animals by signing up to herdplus?

It's the quickest way. I think the dept are sending them out soon but that could be on May 29 when too late to apply or withdraw from scheme

Nettleman · 21-05-2015 8:08am

No-This scheme is designed to benefit far too many but the farmers are not the main beneficiaries. a quango run and controlled by AI companies, which is trying to justify its existence (hasn't justified millions paidf to it by beef farmers to date), AI companies themselves, taxpayer on postage of samples and VAT, private labs for testing, beef factories who will probably introduce penalties for slaughtering cattle under 4 stars, and will use excess dairy and tied in beef numbers under this scheme to send beef prices to €2/kg. This is a very poorly conceived, poorly rolled out, and rushed newspaper filler, and ultimately a waste of tax payers money in its current form. I believe the headlines and spin around this scheme has sucked in a lot of applicants who didn't read the small print and as other have said already, a penalties windfall will be coming to DAFM in a few years time-and lads will have no one to blame only themselves.

blue5000 · 21-05-2015 8:59am

I'm signing up, mainly because I need every red cent that's to be got out of suckling. I have 10 5 star heifers/cows already, but they didn't happen by accident. I have been selecting high ebi cows and putting them to 5 star bulls for the last few years and it is (WAS before TB anyway~) beginning to pay off. Fertility is the big one I think, nationally only 79% of cows have a calf (registered:o) each year. If we could improve that 79% figure nationally and be paid to do it I reckon it would be a win win situation.

On the other hand I know there are lots of older lads at suckling that can't face more paperwork, who let's face it are probably still struggling to tag and register calves within 21 days.

I agree with posters above, sucklers are getting wilder all the time as well, having to wait last year before letting cattle off to an outfarm because the bull had to be genotyped was a pain in the ar5e. The scheme as it stands is too rigid, looks to me like no suckler farmers were consulted at all before it was drawn up. If there were, I'd like to know who they were.

Connemara Farmer · 21-05-2015 9:02am

From what I'm hearing a lot of suckler farmers with small numbers won't touch this scheme with a barge pole. I don't have cattle so only going on second hand info but keeping replacement heifers and the potential clawback of ALL monies at any time during the six years if an error is made were mentioned.... As well as some very interesting other points which will come out in the wash.

Kovu · 21-05-2015 9:06am

blue5000 wrote: »

The scheme as it stands is too rigid, looks to me like no suckler farmers were consulted at all before it was drawn up. If there were, I'd like to know who they were.

Like this Blue

coolshannagh28 · 21-05-2015 9:51am

One major drawback is that the farmer is limited in numbers by the reference year so no incentive to expand particularly for the young .
There seems to be a trend towards financial clawback ie in upfront fees[GLAS] ongong fees [genomics] and penalties in all the new schemes which are unattractive and unfair.
The genomics scheme also pushes the industry in a questionable direction vis a vis carcass size and eating quality it has been pointed out on another thread that Argentina is pushing higher quality beef into Europe from a completely different system and genotype animal

annubis · 21-05-2015 10:03am

blue5000 wrote: »

I'm signing up, mainly because I need every red cent that's to be got out of suckling. I have 10 5 star heifers/cows already, but they didn't happen by accident. I have been selecting high ebi cows and putting them to 5 star bulls for the last few years and it is (WAS before TB anyway~) beginning to pay off. Fertility is the big one I think, nationally only 79% of cows have a calf (registered:o) each year. If we could improve that 79% figure nationally and be paid to do it I reckon it would be a win win situation.

On the other hand I know there are lots of older lads at suckling that can't face more paperwork, who let's face it are probably still struggling to tag and register calves within 21 days.

I agree with posters above, sucklers are getting wilder all the time as well, having to wait last year before letting cattle off to an outfarm because the bull had to be genotyped was a pain in the ar5e. The scheme as it stands is too rigid, looks to me like no suckler farmers were consulted at all before it was drawn up. If there were, I'd like to know who they were.

just beware here, I could be wrong but it looks like in the conditions if those cows are older than 2013 then they arent eligible.

whelan2 · 21-05-2015 11:21am

Think the age thing is putting alot of people off. If you are 70 only god knows where you will be in 6 years time there doesn't seem to be anything that says someone can take over your place in the scheme if you take I'll or die

tanko · 21-05-2015 11:49am

whelan2 wrote: »

Think the age thing is putting alot of people off. If you are 70 only god knows where you will be in 6 years time there doesn't seem to be anything that says someone can take over your place in the scheme if you take I'll or die

According to the front page of the comic today,
"The minister confirmed that if a farmer is forced to leave the suckler sector through illness, death or animal disease then no clawback will be imposed. Land can be transferred or gifted to a relative without penalty once the BDGP contract is continued".
"New entrants or applicants affected by force majeure can use 2015 as a base year".

Sami23 · 21-05-2015 11:51am

Quick question. As 2014 was the reference year is the number of cows you calved last year the maximum amount you can get paid on or will you get paid for whatever number of cows you calf each year of the scheme ?
Say I had 10 calved last year and 15 this year, which amount do I get paid for ?

annubis · 21-05-2015 12:06pm

Sami23 wrote: »

Quick question. As 2014 was the reference year is the number of cows you calved last year the maximum amount you can get paid on or will you get paid for whatever number of cows you calf each year of the scheme ?
Say I had 10 calved last year and 15 this year, which amount do I get paid for ?

ya it will be based on the 10 from last year

Sami23 · 21-05-2015 12:22pm

annubis wrote: »

ya it will be based on the 10 from last year

So no matter how many I have calving this year I'll only get paid for 10 ?

annubis · 21-05-2015 12:25pm

Sami23 wrote: »

So no matter how many I have calving this year I'll only get paid for 10 ?

ya i believe so but im open to correction on this, lets says its 10 cows it means you will need 6 animals available for genomic test every year for the 6 years that havent been tested previously

jd06 · 21-05-2015 12:34pm

As previously mentioned. Does a cow born before 2013 qualify for the scheme

annubis · 21-05-2015 12:56pm

jd06 wrote: »

As previously mentioned. Does a cow born before 2013 qualify for the scheme

no definitely not, i rang dept myself about this

jd06 · 21-05-2015 1:05pm

annubis wrote: »

no definitely not, i rang dept myself about this

Thats a pity, alot of my cows are older but have 4 and 5 stars

ihatewinter · 21-05-2015 2:14pm

That's a bit stupid with the age. Most suckler cows in Ireland are probably born before 2013. Sure about half will probably outlive the scheme and still be knocking around on the farm

Nettleman · 21-05-2015 2:16pm

ihatewinter wrote: »

That's a bit stupid with the age. Most suckler cows in Ireland are probably born before 2013. Sure about half will probably outlive the scheme and still be knocking around on the farm

Lets have a referendum on age to elect a 5 star cow:D

bogman_bass · 21-05-2015 4:26pm

I worked it out that after costs I'll get about €70 per cow. being very generous I'll have about an hours work extra per cow (I'd say it'll be less)

Tell me somewhere else that I'll get €70 per hour?

Kovu · 21-05-2015 5:22pm

bogman_bass wrote: »

I worked it out that after costs I'll get about €70 per cow. being very generous I'll have about an hours work extra per cow (I'd say it'll be less)

Tell me somewhere else that I'll get €70 per hour?

Corner of Benburb St in Dublin?

Tyson Lannister · 21-05-2015 9:36pm

FFs I have pedigree 5 star cows born in 2011 and they won't count? That's fairly annoying

KatyMac · 22-05-2015 8:06am

did ye get a text from Teagasc encouraging joining to the scheme?

Farmer Dan · 22-05-2015 9:24am

annubis wrote: »

no definitely not, i rang dept myself about this

Surely this is for replacement heifer s. If this is the case every cow in the scheme would have had to calve down as heifer s this year??

skoger · 22-05-2015 9:40am

annubis wrote: »

ya i believe so but im open to correction on this, lets says its 10 cows it means you will need 6 animals available for genomic test every year for the 6 years that havent been tested previously

How's this going to work? Lets say you keep 10 cow and 2 replacements. In year 1 you test 6 cows. Year 2 you test the other 4 cows and your two replacements. Year 3 you test the 2 new replacements and then what? Test the other heifers born that year? That'll only give you 3 more assuming 50/50 male/female births. Is there any point testing the bull calves? They're not going to be used for breeding

farawaygrass · 22-05-2015 11:15am

jd06 wrote: »

As previously mentioned. Does a cow born before 2013 qualify for the scheme

Reading the t&c booklet right now and this is my take on it.
By 31st of oct 2018, you need 20% of your reference animals(no. of cows you calved in 2014) to be born in 2013 or later.
Then, by 31 of oct 2020 you need 50%.
So let's say you calved 20 cows in 2014, by 31st of oct 2018, 4 cows on your farm have to be born in 2013 or after, and 10 by 2020.
I'd say the dept are thinking with all the maternal bulls being used they want farmers to buy them.

farawaygrass · 22-05-2015 11:26am

I'm still undecided.
•What will the cost of genotyping be on us farmers?
•what will the cost of the carbon navigator be?
But my big worry is:
•we have two bulls, one 6 year old aa, and one 14 month old blonde. Now reading the t&c's, at least one stock bull on the farm by 30rh of June 2019 must have been genotyped 4 or 5 star AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE.
The Aa is 4.5 stars now, but I don't know what he was when we bought him.
The blonde was recently bought and is very low in the stars as his parents were imported so icbf have no record of him. I am very confident when his calves/weanlings are sold his ratings will go up high but that will take a few years.
So will my Aa qualify? Is my blonde rules out straight way? I am raging if he is. It's like another farmer told me his bull I'd 1 star and they are very happy with him, and he's no fool.
How often are the stars of bulls updated? Sorry for long post. That's my only qualm with this as I'm happy with the bulls I have and they are doing their job.

new suckler scheme

will you part take in the new suckler scheme? 88 votes

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