Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

Links234 · 04-06-2015 10:20AM #1

http://www.thejournal.ie/trans-rights-ireland-gender-recognition-self-declaration-2141181-Jun2015/

Well this is fairly magnificent news, and a bit of a shock to be honest. I'm still reeling with pride over the marriage ref and now this? I could seriously get used to being proud of my country!

MOD NOTE: Just so this thread doesn't go the way of others, trans people exist. So let's not pretend you're being funny or clever or anything other than insulting when you put their gender in quotation marks to denote that it's not their real gender, call trans people "it", make moronic comparisons such as asking if you can now be called black (see above) or anything else that's just being an a$$hole to other humans.
This includes any "men will claim to be women to get into women's changing rooms" type of rubbish.

If you've a point to make, make it without insulting anyone. It shouldn't be that hard for anyone to do.

Boring username · 04-06-2015 10:22AM

Linda Martin must be delighted.

Links234 · 04-06-2015 10:31AM

Boring username wrote: »

Linda Martin must be delighted.

What a mean and nasty thing to say. Trans people don't deserve that comparison.

TheBeardedLady · 04-06-2015 10:32AM

Brilliant news. Delighted for you, Links. Unbelievable how much Ireland is coming on in recent times. It's really bloody brilliant.

Sheep Lover · 04-06-2015 10:36AM

Great, can I declare myself a woman now for the purposes of cheaper car insurance?

Menas · 04-06-2015 10:36AM

It is great to see ourselves as progressive after so many years of the opposite. Delighted.

ThinkProgress · 04-06-2015 10:59AM

They should be required to declare the "trans" part too IMO.

Otherwise we are just denying that our biology has any meaning or significance!

We really should be recognising more than just two distinct genders.

Trans gender deserves it's own recognition as a distinct gender!

DeadHand · 04-06-2015 11:03AM

Can I now declare myself black and six foot five?

I've always wanted to be black and six foot five.

Niemoj · 04-06-2015 11:05AM

I am so proud to be Irish again today!

For a trans person to know their home state accepts them as who they are must be an incredible feeling.

Links234 · 04-06-2015 11:07AM

You know things are probably gonna get very nasty (well, things are nasty already, but even nastier than they are now), like they did with the marriage referendum. Probably worse because trans people are such a small minority relatively and the Iona crowd are surely gonna set their sights on the issue, so I'm seriously not looking forward to another campaign from Quinn, O'Brien and Waters and whoever else. But right now, I am grinning ear to ear!

I'm not even happy for myself, I'm thinking of how much this means to so many friends of mine, it's incredible. I know a lot of people just don't get it, and that's ok too, but this means so much.

Niemoj · 04-06-2015 11:13AM

Woman Of The Year: Joan Burton wrote:

A person’s gender identity is a matter for each individual. Transgender people know their own identity. They don’t need medical evaluation to prove their identity to anyone.

This. This this this this!

A person's sex is black and white, that's whether you're born with a penis or a vagina but someone's gender is defined by the individual themselves and I am so so so proud of our little country to finally recognise that!

humanji · 04-06-2015 11:19AM

MOD NOTE: Just so this thread doesn't go the way of others, trans people exist. So let's not pretend you're being funny or clever or anything other than insulting when you put their gender in quotation marks to denote that it's not their real gender, call trans people "it", make moronic comparisons such as asking if you can now be called black (see above) or anything else that's just being an a$$hole to other humans.

If you've a point to make, make it without insulting anyone. It shouldn't be that hard for anyone to do.

Crooked Jack · 04-06-2015 11:24AM

Instead, their self-declaration will be accepted

Good stuff

for the purpose of updating passports,

Grand so

driving licences,

As it should be

getting married

obviously

obtaining a new birth cert

Ah hold on now. There's recognising somebody's decisions and rights and then there is just trying to change fact. If you are now a man/woman I am very happy for you and you should be afforded all such rights and be recognised as such but your birth cert is a document detailing those facts at the time of your birth. This is preposterous

Mrmoe · 04-06-2015 11:25AM

I think it is a good thing trans can get their correct gender identified but I am not too sure about self declaration. It could open it up to abuse. Is it unreasonable to get independent verification?

MrWalsh · 04-06-2015 11:27AM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Ah hold on now. There's recognising somebody's decisions and rights and then there is just trying to change fact. If you are now a man/woman I am very happy for you and you should be afforded all such rights and be recognised as such but your birth cert is a document detailing those facts at the time of your birth. This is preposterous

It doesnt make sense to record gender on the birth cert at all. Only to record "sex at birth".

Trent Houseboat · 04-06-2015 11:29AM

Yawn, this seems like the old "Two men who aren't even gay getting married for the craic." argument against self declaration.

It should benefit a great many more than those who would try to abuse.

At the end of the day trans people aren't effecting your life and neither will someone who pretends to be trans (not entirely sure why someone would claim to be one of the most marginalised groups in the country).

Crooked Jack · 04-06-2015 11:32AM

MrWalsh wrote: »

It doesnt make sense to record gender on the birth cert at all. Only to record "sex at birth".

Well the birth cert records "sex".
So why would you need to go back and change that? i mean, it's a birth cert, it's implied that its your sex at birth its referring to. If they recorded your weight they'd hardly be expecting you to maintain that at the same level.

Neyite · 04-06-2015 11:43AM

Links234 wrote: »

I'm not even happy for myself, I'm thinking of how much this means to so many friends of mine, it's incredible. I know a lot of people just don't get it, and that's ok too, but this means so much.

Can I ask, what will the benefits be - obviously less paperwork and red tape when beginning to transition, less rigmarole with waiting lists for consultants appointments I guess? But I'd really like to understand more about what this will now mean to people who want to transition.

ThinkProgress · 04-06-2015 11:44AM

I thought official documents required full honest declarations and complete transparency?

Is that not the idea of them being official and law binding documents?

If people want to make distinctions between "sex" and "gender", then maybe they should still have to declare both.

(Unless we're saying it's ok for some people to lie on official documents?)

So why not have both your biological sex AND the gender you are choosing to identify as on those documents?

I'm all for people to live their lives as who or what they wish, but there is no reason they should be permitted to lie, withhold information or cover up their past!

They should be fully transparent about both their past and present identities.

Otherwise these documents are kind of being made a mockery of in some respects.

Niemoj · 04-06-2015 11:52AM

Neyite wrote: »

Can I ask, what will the benefits be - obviously less paperwork and red tape when beginning to transition, less rigmarole with waiting lists for consultants appointments I guess? But I'd really like to understand more about what this will now mean to people who want to transition.

Apologies if I'm butting in here but it says that if you feel you are transgender you no longer have to "prove it", you can have the gender changed on your legal documents so that it matches how you feel inside without the need for evaluation basically.

Knasher · 04-06-2015 11:54AM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Well the birth cert records "sex".
So why would you need to go back and change that? i mean, it's a birth cert, it's implied that its your sex at birth its referring to. If they recorded your weight they'd hardly be expecting you to maintain that at the same level.

It seems to me that a lot of people might agree with you and not bother, and some might just want to change it simply as a catharsis. Maybe there is some other reason that I haven't considered. Either way though, the bigger question is if we gain anything by refusing them? Can't see any benefit in it, so what do we care?

Neyite · 04-06-2015 12:03PM

Niemoj wrote: »

Apologies if I'm butting in here but it says that if you feel you are transgender you no longer have to "prove it", you can have the gender changed on your legal documents so that it matches how you feel inside without the need for evaluation basically.

I know that all right - I suppose I'm wondering what these changes will mean for a transgender person day to day. My assumption (which could be wrong) at the moment would be that you have to currently begin to transition medically before name-changing legally, so that typically means GP referral to Consultant A, waiting lists, meds, appointments, referral to Consultants B & C, MORE waiting lists, cancellations etc etc. Invariably would prolong transition, with the knock on effect that delays in changing your documents legally will happen.

So under this new change, you can declare yourself your true gender, live life from that point on in that gender, and sort out the medical side of things at your own (or the HSE's) pace I suppose?

Crooked Jack · 04-06-2015 12:07PM

Knasher wrote: »

It seems to me that a lot of people might agree with you and not bother, and some might just want to change it simply as a catharsis. Maybe there is some other reason that I haven't considered. Either way though, the bigger question is if we gain anything by refusing them? Can't see any benefit in it, so what do we care?

But even going by the gender v sex argument (which i take issue with) surely it's impossible to change your sex.
And even if you could it wasnt your sex at the time of your birth.
I mean, as someone else pointed out, this is supposed to be a factual government document. Surely there's a danger in allowing people to alter it with false information.
Half the population change their name at some stage or another, they still dont get to go back and change the name on their birth cert because that was not their name at the time

Wibbs · 04-06-2015 12:11PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I thought official documents required full honest declarations and complete transparency?

Is that not the idea of them being official and law binding documents?

If people want to make distinctions between "sex" and "gender", then maybe they should still have to declare both.

(Unless we're saying it's ok for some people to lie on official documents?)

So why not have both your biological sex AND the gender you are choosing to identify as on those documents?

I'm all for people to live their lives as who or what they wish, but there is no reason they should be permitted to lie, withhold information or cover up their past!

They should be fully transparent about both their past and present identities.

Otherwise these documents are kind of being made a mockery of in some respects.

+1. Apparently this rewriting of history and reality is OK so long as we're in the rush to becoming as progressive as possible. The self declaration part of it is beyond surreal, but again apparently this makes anyone who believes this ignorant.

Daith · 04-06-2015 12:12PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Half the population change their name at some stage or another, they still dont get to go back and change the name on their birth cert because that was not their name at the time

Which is why you're not altering your existing Birth Cert. It's still there and correct as of that time. You get a new one which you might need to apply for a new passport etc.

jimgoose · 04-06-2015 12:12PM

Wibbs wrote: »

+1. Apparently this rewriting of history and reality is OK so long as we're in the rush to becoming as progressive as possible. The self declaration part of it is beyond surreal, but again apparently this makes anyone who believes this ignorant.

Does any other jurisdiction allow this? It strikes me as rather odd as well.

Wibbs · 04-06-2015 12:12PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Half the population change their name at some stage or another, they still dont get to go back and change the name on their birth cert because that was not their name at the time

Exactly. May as well change the date too if we self declare it as wrong.

Knasher · 04-06-2015 12:13PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I mean, as someone else pointed out, this is supposed to be a factual government document. Surely there's a danger in allowing people to alter it with false information.

Well I asked what issue would be with letting them go back and change it if they wished. So can you be a little bit more specific about this danger you mentioned.

Wibbs · 04-06-2015 12:13PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Does any other jurisdiction allow this? It strikes me as rather odd as well.

If I understand it, the EU is happy with this.

SEPT 23 1989 · 04-06-2015 12:13PM

Fathers rights issue solved

we will all become mothers:D

Daith · 04-06-2015 12:13PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Exactly. May as well change the date too if we self declare it as wrong.

We're not changing the original birth cert are we?

Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

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