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Moral Guidance

13567…10

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  • #62
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    hinault wrote: »
    Thus far the 20th century has been the bloodiest in human history.

    More people were killed in human conflict in that century than every before.

    The secularists attribute the unprecedented death toll down to more mechanised means of killing and injuring people. That is a factor. But what is the main factor behind the higher death toll was the intent to put various atheist / man made principles at the fore of respective societies.

    Nazi Germany.
    The Soviet Union.
    Communist China.
    Kampuchea.

    The argument may be made that the population of the world was smaller during the 12th century for example, compared to the population of the world in the 20th century.

    But the death toll of the population in the 20th century relative to the population in the 20th century, is far higher than the comparable 12th century population figures.

    What tripe! It never goes too long in here before something stupid like that is said.


  • #63
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,483 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Safehands wrote: »
    With the departure of organised religions from our society, where do our young people go for moral guidance?

    Mental health services.

    The law.

    Their family, peer group, and the media.

    www.Boards.ie



    Not necessarily in that order


  • #64
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Mental health services.

    The law.

    Their family, peer group, and the media.

    www.Boards.ie

    Wow Mrs O'Bumble, You have stumbled on what I regard as two of the biggest problems relating to morals in todays world.
    Peer Groups are perhaps a greater threat to young people generally, than ever before. You can include in that, social media. Anyone who thinks of accessing the likes of facebook for moral guidance of any discription, is heading for the abyss.
    The media is probably the single greatest threat to modern society. Just take a quick peek at what young teenage girls will access on tv if they are allowed. Athiests generally believe in no Gods. An awful lot of young people are not athiests. They have a God. It's called materialism, and the Biblical God, for all his faults, is a hell of a lot better than our kid's modern replacement.


  • #65
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Safehands wrote: »
    They have a God. It's called materialism, and the Biblical God, for all his faults, is a hell of a lot better than our kid's modern replacement.
    Of course, materialism never demanded anyone be burned at the stake.


  • #66
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Safehands wrote: »
    Wow Mrs O'Bumble, You have stumbled on what I regard as two of the biggest problems relating to morals in todays world.
    Peer Groups are perhaps a greater threat to young people generally, than ever before. You can include in that, social media. Anyone who thinks of accessing the likes of facebook for moral guidance of any discription, is heading for the abyss.
    The media is probably the single greatest threat to modern society. Just take a quick peek at what young teenage girls will access on tv if they are allowed. Athiests generally believe in no Gods. An awful lot of young people are not athiests. They have a God. It's called materialism, and the Biblical God, for all his faults, is a hell of a lot better than our kid's modern replacement.

    and yet if you look at somewhere like the US , the "blue" states tend to have better teenage behaviour if measured by statistics like teen pregnancy or STD rates compared to the more religious "red" states

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #67
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Safehands wrote: »
    With the departure of organised religions from our society, where do our young people go for moral guidance?

    There has been no departure of organised religions from our society.

    You ask an interesting question though about were young Irish people go for moral guidance.


  • #68
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Pretty much this. I'm raising my children without religion and this is what I teach them. I want them to have respect and empathy for people. That's it really. The rest they can be their own judge of, I don't intend to micro manage their lives and want them to reach their own conclusions.

    On what basis do you instruct your kids to have respect and empathy for other people?

    How do you justify the requirement that one must have respect and empathy for anyone else?


  • #69
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,114 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    hinault wrote: »
    On what basis do you instruct your kids to have respect and empathy for other people?

    How do you justify the requirement that one must have respect and empathy for anyone else?

    I'm sure that you, as a Christian, are familiar with the "golden rule". So were various pre-Judeo-Christian cultures like the Babylonians, the ancient Egyptians, ancient China etc.


  • #70
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I'm sure that you, as a Christian, are familiar with the "golden rule". So were various pre-Judeo-Christian cultures like the Babylonians, the ancient Egyptians, ancient China etc.
    And indeed uncontacted tribes in the Amazon. It's almost like...it's part of human nature.


  • #71
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    hinault wrote: »
    On what basis do you instruct your kids to have respect and empathy for other people?

    How do you justify the requirement that one must have respect and empathy for anyone else?

    Hinault, as a fundamentalist Christian, I presume you believe that things are good because your God tells you so, rather than things being 'good' and God liking people doing 'good' things?

    Or?


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  • #72
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I'm sure that you, as a Christian, are familiar with the "golden rule". So were various pre-Judeo-Christian cultures like the Babylonians, the ancient Egyptians, ancient China etc.

    I've never heard of it.

    On what basis do you instruct your kids to have respect and empathy for other people?

    How do you justify the requirement that one must have respect and empathy for anyone else?


  • #73
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    hinault wrote: »
    I've never heard of it.
    I can't say I find that surprising.


  • #74
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    hinault wrote: »
    I've never heard of it.

    On what basis do you instruct your kids to have respect and empathy for other people?

    How do you justify the requirement that one must have respect and empathy for anyone else?

    empathy and respect are traits valued in society , patents raise kids knowing they will be "judged" by society ergo these values are passed on to our kids as it will be of benefit to them. No god needed.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #75
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    silverharp wrote: »
    empathy and respect are traits valued in society , patents raise kids knowing they will be "judged" by society ergo these values are passed on to our kids as it will be of benefit to them. No god needed.

    OK.

    The kid gets taught that society will judge them if they have no empathy and respect.

    How does society justify it's judgement?


  • #76
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    hinault wrote: »
    OK.

    The kid gets taught that society will judge them if they have no empathy and respect.

    How does society justify it's judgement?

    Society judges people all the time - it doesn't really need justification. Why would it? Sometimes it's not all that fair, but then that's life. Things that once were acceptable, cease to be all the time as society evolves, like slavery, sexism, racism and so on.
    Society deemed these things unacceptable - god had no problem with them whatsoever! God being all knowing and all seeing doesn't need to change with the times!


  • #77
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    hinault wrote: »
    OK.

    The kid gets taught that society will judge them if they have no empathy and respect.

    How does society justify it's judgement?

    because it works. Ethics no not need a religious basis, society creates ethics out of necessity for instance how could trade happen if nobody trusted anyone else? if everyone had to keep their hands physically on their property , society would be impossible.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #78
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    silverharp wrote: »
    because it works. Ethics no not need a religious basis, society creates ethics out of necessity for instance how could trade happen if nobody trusted anyone else? if everyone had to keep their hands physically on their property , society would be impossible.

    Because it works? That is very debatable that it does work in fact.

    How does society justify it's judgement?


  • #79
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Society judges people all the time - it doesn't really need justification. Why would it? Sometimes it's not all that fair, but then that's life

    Society's judgement is relativist. And I agree that it.
    And that is one danger in allowing society to be the guide to morality.


  • #80
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,001 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    hinault wrote: »
    Society's judgement is relativist. And I agree that it.
    And that is one danger in allowing society to be the guide to morality.
    Can you give an example of a country/society where this wasn't the case?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #81
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    SW wrote: »
    Can you give an example of a country/society where this wasn't the case?

    Maybe you need to direct that question to those here who advocate that society is able to provide adequate moral guidance.


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  • #82
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,001 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    hinault wrote: »
    Maybe you need to direct that question to those here who advocate that society is able to provide adequate moral guidance.
    :confused:

    you're suggesting that society shouldn't/doesn't provide moral guidance. I'm trying to get an idea of how such a society would work, and if there are any societies that you would point to as example.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #83
    homer911
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭homer911


    ISIS?


  • #84
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    hinault wrote: »
    Because it works? That is very debatable that it does work in fact.

    How does society justify it's judgement?

    People without the capacity for empathy actually have a medical disorder be it NPD or in extreme cases are referred to as sociopaths. Such people tend to have problems fitting in for the very reason that their behaviour leads them to be judged in a negatively way by society. The judgement is a rational response to behaviour we like to see in other people.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #85
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    silverharp wrote: »
    People without the capacity for empathy actually have a medical disorder be it NPD or in extreme cases are referred to as sociopaths. Such people tend to have problems fitting in for the very reason that their behaviour leads them to be judged in a negatively way by society. The judgement is a rational response to behaviour we like to see in other people.

    I didn't ask you about a medical disorder.

    Your op asks where do young people derive moral guidance from.
    Society is put forward as one answer.

    All I'm asking is if society is the moral guidance custodian, then on what basis does society justify the moral guidance which it is said to provide.


  • #86
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    hinault wrote: »
    I didn't ask you about a medical disorder.

    Your op asks where do young people derive moral guidance from.
    Society is put forward as one answer.

    All I'm asking is if society is the moral guidance custodian, then on what basis does society justify the moral guidance which it is said to provide.

    no custodian needed, I can't picture a society where sloth would be seen as a vurtue for instance. Socially people want friends to have certain values, in relationships we value certain values in our partners. In work and business positive traits are rewarded like honesty , work ethic.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #87
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    It's very important for Hinault's argument that he ignores pre- and non-religious societies that have worked absolutely fine since the dawn of time. Rather a glaring thing to ignore, but there you go.


  • #88
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    silverharp wrote: »
    no custodian needed, I can't picture a society where sloth would be seen as a vurtue for instance. Socially people want friends to have certain values, in relationships we value certain values in our partners. In work and business positive traits are rewarded like honesty , work ethic.

    For there to be moral guidance, there has to be a template for what determines morality. Who or where is the custodian of this template?

    Traits such as honesty and work ethic should be rewarded, but does society reward such work?
    Does "society" reward carers for the work which the "state" cannot afford to do for example?

    And how does society define "honesty"?


  • #89
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    hinault wrote: »
    For there to be moral guidance, there has to be a template for what determines morality. Who or where is the custodian of this template?

    Traits such as honesty and work ethic should be rewarded, but does society reward such work?
    Does "society" reward carers for the work which the "state" cannot afford to do for example?

    And how does society define "honesty"?
    There does not have to be a template, we live in a learning society , we know from growing up and observing the world around us that a whole host of values should be passed on to our kids and other behaviour discouraged.
    You are getting off topic on carers. As for honesty , everything from telling the truth to not actually stealing. If you actually raised a child to lie cheat and steal I could tell you "for a fact" that they would have a troubled life.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #90
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    silverharp wrote: »
    There does not have to be a template, we live in a learning society , we know from growing up and observing the world around us that a whole host of values should be passed on to our kids and other behaviour discouraged.

    Of course there has to be a template. How are folk supposed to know what is unacceptable behaviour?

    The Statute book is a template of sorts. The rules and regulations concerning maintaining the law and what constitutes breaking the law are contained in the Statute book.

    silverharp wrote: »
    You are getting off topic on carers. As for honesty , everything from telling the truth to not actually stealing. If you actually raised a child to lie cheat and steal I could tell you "for a fact" that they would have a troubled life.

    It's not off topic. You mentioned honesty.

    How does society justify that stealing is wrong?


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  • #91
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    hinault wrote: »
    For there to be moral guidance, there has to be a template for what determines morality. Who or where is the custodian of this template?
    Where did this template come from in pre- and non-religious societies?

    Where is 'truth' defined in Christianity?


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