Could Ireland have made any noticeable impact in the Second World War

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

As indeed South Africa (opposing Nazi racism?!) , Australia, NZ etc British Commonwealth countries.

Germany declared on America, fact, it matters little whose "side they supported" - they didn't join the war until they had to.

Same for every other European country.

sparky42 wrote: »

A quick question to add to your points, when did Germany attack South America? Cause I'm fairly sure some of those nations declared war on Germany as well...

Peregrinus wrote: »

All this is true. But, still, it's misleading to present Canada, Australia, etc as examples of countries that joined the War because they recognised the need to oppose Nazi Germany, as indioblack implies. They all joined because they thought their relationship with the UK required it; the looked to the UK, to a material extent, to guarantee their security and they understood that the quid pro quo was that they would support the UK in its wars.

As the Australian Prime Minister Menzies put it, "Britain is at war therefore Australia is at war". He didn't even bother to serve a formal declaration of war on German diplomatic representatives; he asked London to notify Germany that Australia was associated with the British declaration. The New Zealand Prime Minister, Savage, put it even more simply; "We range ourselves without fear beside Britain. Where she goes, we go! Where she stands, we stand!"

In Canada the Prime Minister at the time, King, had declared as far back as 1923 that Canada would always participate in "an Empire war", and he never varied from that position. It did take the Canadians a week to declare war, but there was never any doubt but that they would do so.

South Africa was the only major dominion where there was any real debate about whether to enter the war but, as you point out, those opposed lost that debate. And those who won the debate did not rest their case on the need to oppose Naziism, but on the view that South Africa was politically and morally obliged to support the UK in its wars.

This was plainly a position which was never going to find much popular or official support in Ireland. Ireland was much the most detached member of the Commonwealth, having ceased in practice to participate in 1932. The considerations which led Commonwealth countries to declare war in 1939 simply had no traction in Ireland. Furthermore, they had nothing to do with a recognition of the need to fight Naziism, and everything to do with calculations of self-interest.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I think that I've already pointed out that Polish allies Britain and France apart, no country entered WW2 on the side of the allies without being attacked first.

Because they thought getting involved a war between imperial powers if it could be avoided would be insane.

Which it would have been.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Most historians believe Hitler declared war on America. People who don't realise that really shouldn't throw around accusations of BS.

It is very impolite -and when applied to my observations, very very inaccurate.

The government of the Reich consequently breaks off diplomatic relations with the United States of America and declares that under these circumstances brought about by President Roosevelt, Germany too, as from today [11 Dec 1941], considers herself as being in a state of war with the United States of America.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I agree fully except for the bit about Britain and France!

They were fighting for geopolitical reasons. They were both genocidal Empires every bit as nasty as the Nazis were - except the Nazis were attacking otherEuropeans - so we like to build that into a greater evil that merely killing millions of Africans or Asians.

In WW1, regarding which some folk think we should be "commemorating" (:rolleyes:) those poor fools who "sacrificed" their lives for the British Empire, we were allegedly going to the aid of plucky little Belgium, a country which was at the time involved in one of the greatest genocides in history in the Congo.

The notion the Britain or France went to war with Germany as part of some moral crusade is beyond ridicule. Like stories you'd tell a 7 year-old about the tooth fairy.

So if you want to do a cost/benefit of the Free State opportunistically joining in after America entered and the result was fairly certain, fine. Don't forget to count the Irish bodies and the maimed though.

But please - spare me any BS "morality".

Peregrinus wrote: »

I can't honestly see why the allies would have done what you suggest. Why spend massive amounts upgrading port facilities on the east and west coast of Ireland, and the railways between them, so you can add two transhipments and a rail journey, none of which appears to add any value? Nobody today ships goods from the US to the UK by transhipping them through Ireland; why would it have seemed like a good idea in 1940?

The value to the Allies would have been the use of Irish ports and basis for naval purposes, not merchant naval purposes. And, possibly, the contribution that could be made by Irish troops (though, to be honest, this would not have hugely significant in the scheme of things). There might have been some upgrading of ports for naval purposes, and some of that ugrading might have been converted to useful civil purposes after the war though, to be honest, not very much of it. There would have been the negative impact of German attacks on Ireland, plus the loss of life and injury to any Irish troops engaging in combat.

Basically, Ireland did what a lot of other countries (including the US) did; provide some degree of support for the Allies consistent with military neutrality. Other countries abandoned this and became combatants when left with no choice; Ireland never found itself in that position.