Leaving the country with his daughter

Nicburberry · 07-11-2015 08:27PM #1

Hi everyone,

Bit of background, myself and my ex have a 4 year old daughter , separated 3 years he lives with someone else . Pays maintanence and has regular access.

He recently broke access , prioritising another person over the access of daughter. It was only supposed to be temporary but is being extended . Someone of his other halves family moved in to his house and is taking our daughters room so he can't have her over night due to this.

I tried to leave last year, back to my place of origin but got a letter from his solicitor stating I need court order if I wanted to move away.

Due to his lack of interest regarding access I feel as though I should go without his consent and then only once I'm back home deal with the consequences. Maybe he won't do anything about it..but maybe he will...

Would the court go in my favour if I provided proof of his lack of interest and is it a lengthy process as I need to go asap

Little CuChulainn · 07-11-2015 09:39PM

Your plan is incredibly stupid. Consult a solicitor before you do anything.

Acara · 08-11-2015 10:57AM

Nicburberry wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Bit of background, myself and my ex have a 4 year old daughter , separated 3 years he lives with someone else . Pays maintanence and has regular access.

He recently broke access , prioritising another person over the access of daughter. It was only supposed to be temporary but is being extended . Someone of his other halves family moved in to his house and is taking our daughters room so he can't have her over night due to this.

I tried to leave last year, back to my place of origin but got a letter from his solicitor stating I need court order if I wanted to move away.

Due to his lack of interest regarding access I feel as though I should go without his consent and then only once I'm back home deal with the consequences. Maybe he won't do anything about it..but maybe he will...

Would the court go in my favour if I provided proof of his lack of interest and is it a lengthy process as I need to go asap

Where is your place of origin???

Penny Tration · 08-11-2015 10:59AM

Instead of being spiteful and leaving the country, why not consider the best interests of your child? Your child deserves to have both parents. By all accounts, he's spending time with the child and paying his way so what gives you the right to take that away from your child?

So she can't sleep over for a short while. Big deal. she can still see him and spend time with him.

Don't use your child as a weapon

Victor · 08-11-2015 11:14AM

The Hague Convention of 25 October 1980 on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction comes to mind. Leaving Ireland without agreement would likely result in court action returning you to Ireland - at your expense.

Nicburberry wrote: »

He recently broke access , prioritising another person over the access of daughter.

Isn't it a right of access, not an obligation to care?

Tasden · 08-11-2015 11:18AM

I would think that his solicitor sending you a letter preventing you from leaving the country with his child would indicate his interest in seeing and caring for his child.

Also, just on a personal note, not sure if it is off topic or not but I think it needs to be said. Your child has a father that loves her enough to legally fight for her to stay in the country, to have regular access and pay maintenance. He respected you enough to tell you that he couldn't stick to the usual access arrangements, and he told you why he couldn't. There are many children who barely see their other parent because of spite and bitterness getting in the way on one or both sides. Please think very carefully before you willingly remove your child from her family.

Rasmus · 08-11-2015 12:54PM

Are you talking about taking your child out of the country or the district?

Tasden · 08-11-2015 01:11PM

Rasmus wrote: »

Are you talking about taking your child out of the country or the district?

The title says leaving the country.

Rasmus · 08-11-2015 01:12PM

Tasden wrote: »

The title says leaving the country.

Yes it does, sorry about that.

Tasden · 08-11-2015 01:14PM

Rasmus wrote: »

Yes it does, sorry about that.

No need to apologise! Was just pointing out where it was said about it being the country

zeffabelli · 08-11-2015 01:18PM

Yes international extradition is nigh impossible in reality but the right thing to do is to get clearance from the courts.

Petition the court.

tayto lover · 08-11-2015 01:47PM

Put you child first OP. She might not forgive you in time and it could all backfire on you.
Your husband has rights too and seems to be very interested in his relationship with his daughter.Forget about the grudges and get on as well as you can with him. It will all be for the best.

CelticRambler · 08-11-2015 01:49PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Yes international extradition is nigh impossible in reality but the right thing to do is to get clearance from the courts.

That's completely untrue. There is a well-oiled mechanism for quickly, at times aggressively, finding and dealing with parents who have unlawfully removed a child from its habitual jurisdiction.

@OP: don't even think about moving your child without consent. Apart from bringing a whole heap of trouble and cost on yourself, if the father has already warned you about taking your daughter out of the country and you take her anyway, he would be within his rights to seek full custody and you would almost certainly lose her.

The details are very sketchy, but it does seem that the father has actually behaved fairly by *not* expecting your daughter to stay overnight when there's someone else staying in the house - a lot of mothers would use that as a reason to re-negotiate access.

zeffabelli · 08-11-2015 01:53PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

That's completely untrue. There is a well-oiled mechanism for quickly, at times aggressively, finding and dealing with parents who have unlawfully removed a child from its habitual jurisdiction.

@OP: don't even think about moving your child without consent. Apart from bringing a whole heap of trouble and cost on yourself, if the father has already warned you about taking your daughter out of the country and you take her anyway, he would be within his rights to seek full custody and you would almost certainly lose her.

The details are very sketchy, but it does seem that the father has actually behaved fairly by *not* expecting your daughter to stay overnight when there's someone else staying in the house - a lot of mothers would use that as a reason to re-negotiate access.

I'm sorry but you are wrong. Extradition is extremely difficult.

Secondly the fathers home is the child's home too. The child's right to be there is the priority.

If he does not enforce that right, then his access/custody rights are compromised because he has failed to provide a non custodial residence for the child.

Rights are rights until they are challenged and you can see how flimsy they actually are.

CelticRambler · 08-11-2015 02:33PM

Extradition doesn't come into it. If the "destination country" is signed up to the Hague Convention, it's simply (as simple as international justice ever is) a question of sending someone to take the child away from the offending parent and bringing her back to her legal domicile, which is the country she's been living in for the previous six months or more. It's nothing to do with what house she's living in; the courts will deal with any questions about that once they've got the child back. If necessary, they'll make her a ward of court while they figure it out, but the parent who broke the law is at an immediate disadvantage.

Obviously if the child is hidden away in some African jungle village, that changes things, but there are relatively few places on the planet now where a child can be put out of reach of a determined other parent.

Basically, the OP would be incredibly stupid to try it unless she's got good connections with the local mafia wherever she's thinking of going.

chops018 · 08-11-2015 02:46PM

I just feel really sorry for the child in all this. Imagine what he/she going through, because of their selfish parents

gordongekko · 08-11-2015 02:59PM

chops018 wrote: »

I just feel really sorry for the child in all this. Imagine what he/she going through, because of their selfish parents

Sounds like both of them love the kid, has 2 loving homes and is probably spoiled rotten by both parents.

tayto lover · 08-11-2015 03:02PM

gordongekko wrote: »

Sounds like both of them love the kid, has 2 loving homes and is probably spoiled rotten by both parents.

They surely do love the kid BUT if they're spoiling the child with gifts just to seemingly get one over on the other parent then it will come back to bite both of them. Spoiling the child is not good parenting in the long run.

chops018 · 08-11-2015 03:22PM

gordongekko wrote: »

Sounds like both of them love the kid, has 2 loving homes and is probably spoiled rotten by both parents.

Where in the OP does it say anything like that?

I know you said it "sounds". But if he is prioritising his "other halves family" staying in what is to be the childs room when he/she stays over then the child hardly has two loving homes. We have no idea if he/she is probably spoiled rotten as you say.

Horrible situation for the kid. Has a father, who while he probably loves the child and wants to be involved in their life, is making another life with someone else and only wants to see the child on his terms (by the sounds of it). The OP is not happy that he is moving on and breaking access (breaking the access and being unhappy is fair enough though) so they are using the child now and threatening to remove he/she from the country (probably in spite).

Best course of action would be to try and vary the access in my opinion. Back to the courts - not off with their child to another country.

Have you any experience in dealing with Family Law matters? It can be very messy, and both sides usually forget it's supposed to be what's best for the child and that they should "try" put their own differences aside. Going from the OP, they do have an argument if their ex-partner is not abiding by the access order ruled by the Judge. As I said, best course of action is to go back to court and try vary the access, with the childs best interests in mind.

Nicburberry · 08-11-2015 06:58PM

He wants minimal access. I sat in his solicitors and am very civil toward this guy because after all he is her father. I've tried getting on with him for her sake but I can't be bothered anymore

My family and support network is in the UK. To be told that others are a priority over our daughter is just a kick in the teeth . I'm only here because I have to be.

Tasden · 08-11-2015 07:01PM

Nicburberry wrote: »

He wants minimal access. I sat in his solicitors and am very civil toward this guy because after all he is her father. I've tried getting on with him for her sake but I can't be bothered anymore

My family and support network is in the UK. To be told that others are a priority over our daughter is just a kick in the teeth . I'm only here because I have to be.

You said in your op he has regular access.

CelticRambler · 08-11-2015 07:09PM

Nicburberry wrote: »

My family and support network is in the UK.

Then you definitely should not try an unlawful removal. If he doesn't want your daughter staying as often as before, then take a constructive approach and suggest that it is time to formally change the existing arrangement. Ask him to agree to your daughter being re-located to the UK in exchange for her spending a certain number of weeks with him during some of the holiday periods.

It sounds like you have a reasonable channel of communication, so it should be possible to work something out together, get a solicitor to give it the once over and have it rubber stamped by the court.

Be bothered - because if you really won't enjoy the stress and aggro that comes with a Hague Convention process. And be in no doubt that the UK courts and police will be fully geared up to take your daughter from you if/when her father lodges a demand in Ireland.

Mr. Incognito · 09-11-2015 01:31AM

You have a few hypothetical options.

1. Leave to the UK. Ilegally. Deal with the consequences. These are that he can petition the UK courts for full custody. Not saying it would be granted, will depend on a lot of things but abducting your child illegally will not go in your favour. Especially after receiving a solicitors letter telling you not to do this.

2. Petition the courts here on the basis that your want to relocate to the UK. Your child's father will most likely resist this and the courts default setting will be to keep the child in this jurisdication.

You have only one real option and that is to consult your solicitor. Even booking a flight here would be a bonehead move.

The UK is a short hop away. No more than a ferry or a flight. You're not going to get very far with this silly idea.

Fred Swanson · 09-11-2015 02:00AM

This post has been deleted.

coolhandluke · 09-11-2015 02:41AM

Nicburberry wrote: »

He wants minimal access. I sat in his solicitors and am very civil toward this guy because after all he is her father. I've tried getting on with him for her sake but I can't be bothered anymore

My family and support network is in the UK. To be told that others are a priority over our daughter is just a kick in the teeth . I'm only here because I have to be.

Be in no doubt ,if you take the child to the uk without the necessary legal process/consent and he lodges a claim against you, you are in a whole world of trouble. The Uk courts will not be on your side, they will simply have to abide by a ruling in this country.

It has happened irish parents who have removed children for the us, without consent.

Mr. Incognito · 09-11-2015 08:48AM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think you will find that it will become very relevant if she leaves the jurisdiction with the child that they put her on notice that such was illegal.

Graham · 10-11-2015 02:02AM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I think you will find that it will become very relevant if she leaves the jurisdiction with the child that they put her on notice that such was illegal.

If there's no court order mandating that the child remains in the jurisdiction what would make leaving the jurisdiction illegal?

Added: genuinely curious, I'm not suggesting you're wrong.

Peregrinus · 10-11-2015 05:32AM

If the effect of removing the child from the jurisdiction is to frustrate the other parent's court-ordered access, their guardianship rights, etc (and you don't have the other parent's consent) then, yes, it's "child abduction" for the purposes of the already-mentioned Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction, and the Convention processes kick in to effect the return of the child.

Graham · 10-11-2015 10:50AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

If the effect of removing the child from the jurisdiction is to frustrate the other parent's court-ordered access, their guardianship rights, etc (and you don't have the other parent's consent) then, yes, it's "child abduction" for the purposes of the already-mentioned Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction, and the Convention processes kick in to effect the return of the child.

I expected that would be the case where the access is court ordered. What if there is no such court order and previous access was negotiated and agreed by the parents directly?

CelticRambler · 10-11-2015 11:23AM

Graham wrote: »

If there's no court order mandating that the child remains in the jurisdiction what would make leaving the jurisdiction illegal?

The jurisdiction refers to the legal "space" in which a court has the power to make orders. It doesn't matter whether the court has actually made any (e.g. if you assault someone in Temple Bar, it doesn't matter where you come from, or that you've never commited a criminal act in Ireland before, it's an Irish court that will try you.)

In family law, the court with jurisdiction depends on the habitual residence of the individuals. When it comes to children, the child has rights independent of his/her parents, so it is his/her habitual residence that determines which court will make orders for custody.

Two parents in perfect agreement can make a decision to remove their child from the jurisdiction for any reason and for any length of time; but when there is disagreement - even if that is limited to an amicable separation - both parents lose the right to remove the child from the jurisdiction without the explicit consent of the other (even for holidays, school trips, etc). To do so is illegal by default.

Traditionally, movement between Ireland and England has been very easy, and elsewhere, we tend to travel in a family gang, which can lead Irish (resident) people to believe that travelling abroad with children is happy-go-lucky. Not so! If you spend time at any French airport, for example, you'll regularly see families pulled aside to have their documents checked, and reconcile differences between surnames (e.g. mother using her maiden name doesn't match children with father's surname, father not present, no autorisation de sortie du territoire, panicky phone calls trying to find the father before boarding ...)

Micheal O'Leary has a lot to answer for in this regard

but while the procedures were being tightened up anyway, things are more strict now as the security services try to identify and stop unaccompanied teenagers making their way to the ISIS training camps.

Peregrinus · 10-11-2015 02:27PM

Graham wrote: »

I expected that would be the case where the access is court ordered. What if there is no such court order and previous access was negotiated and agreed by the parents directly?

The OP doesn't say whether the access is court-ordered or not, but the fact that she got a solicitor's letter might suggest that this went legal some time ago. Maybe I'm reading too much into this.

Regardless, even if there has been no court involvement to date, we have to ask if the father has joint guardianship? Again, the OP doesn't say. But if he does, and if she removes the child from the jurisdiction unilaterally, I think we're in Hague Convention country.

All of which goes to underline the soundness of the advice she's had since post #2; for the love of God, see a solicitor before doing anything like this. If she doesn't, it could end very, very badly.

Leaving the country with his daughter

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