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PTRB - tenant not paying - need evict

  • 02-03-2016 05:05PM
    #1
    harry999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭


    Hi

    My tenant is not paying rent.

    I gave 14 day notice & 28 day notice - now case filed with PTRB.

    I heard PTRB as quicker now in dealing with cases, how long do you think it will take ? I will prob have to go to court after PTRB as tenants say they will not move without a court order. I'm paying mortgage on this, not sure if I can afford it if longer than 6 months. Will I get this rent back ? They are on rent allowance.

    Thanks very much for any replies.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    justathought do not post on this thread again

    Mod


  • #3
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • #4
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    harry999 wrote: »
    Hi

    My tenant is not paying rent.

    I gave 14 day notice & 28 day notice - now case filed with PTRB.

    I heard PTRB as quicker now in dealing with cases, how long do you think it will take ? I will prob have to go to court after PTRB as tenants say they will not move without a court order. I'm paying mortgage on this, not sure if I can afford it if longer than 6 months. Will I get this rent back ? They are on rent allowance.

    Thanks very much for any replies.


    you should speak to welfare if they are not paying you direct. You might be able to get that at least


  • #5
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,010 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    handlemaster wrote: »
    you should speak to welfare if they are not paying you direct. You might be able to get that at least

    Won't talk to the landlord. Its not their problem.

    Op, make sure you are doing everything to a tee. Wrong 14 days or 28 days, your back to the start. After prtb judgment, you can pay to have your court case heard quicker according to people on this forum. Depending on your rent payments, it might make more sense to do this.

    You won't get any money back. If you can't afford a large financial hit, don't be a landlord. Too muxh risk. Especially if you rent to RA tenants.


  • #6
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Won't talk to the landlord. Its not their problem.

    Op, make sure you are doing everything to a tee. Wrong 14 days or 28 days, your back to the start. After prtb judgment, you can pay to have your court case heard quicker according to people on this forum. Depending on your rent payments, it might make more sense to do this.

    You won't get any money back. If you can't afford a large financial hit, don't be a landlord. Too muxh risk. Especially if you rent to RA tenants.

    Once you get a Determination Order you can bring a criminal prosecution. That is the quickest way of getting the tenants out. If the tenants want to avoid a conviction, it will be very effective.


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  • #7
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=923

    I say keep hounding the PRTB for an earlier date.


  • #8
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,453 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Many professional landlords end up paying the tenant to leave in these circumstances: it sounds horrible that you end up rewarding them for such behaviour, but they find it is the only way to come to a mutually acceptable conclusion.

    Otherwise you can be waiting months, at best, to get them out and to get income coming in again for the property.


  • #9
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Won't talk to the landlord. Its not their problem.

    Yes they will, rent allowance is for rent payments only. If the Op tells them rent isn't being paid they will stop that payment- Op might not be getting it but neither are the tenants.

    To get it paid directly to the landlord ops tenants will have to sign it over which seems unlikely!


  • #10
    pc7
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    Awful position to be in, would you talk to your mortgage provider and try get a freeze on mortgage for a few months so you don't clear out your savings. As if and when they leave you may need to do repairs to be able to rent again. Best of luck really hope you get seen soon by prtb


  • #11
    harry999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭harry999


    Thanks for replies - Once I get a Determination Order(how many weeks to get this order on average? ) & I bring to criminal prosecution (how many weeks to get this order on average? )in Cork criminal court.

    Just trying to get a idea of how long this take and if I can afford it.


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  • #12
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,010 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Best person to answer that is a Cork Solicitor.


  • #13
    harry999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭harry999


    So would you advise I stay away from PTRB altogether and go the solicitor route - would this be much more expensive ?


  • #14
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    harry999 wrote: »
    So would you advise I stay away from PTRB altogether and go the solicitor route - would this be much more expensive ?

    You must exhaust the PRTB process before you go to court. This is the reason the PRTB exists, to keep most of these issues out of court in the first place. The problem is that in instances like yours, you already know you're going to end up in court as the tenants have told you as much.


  • #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Next time, if possible, rent out rooms rather than the complete house.

    And people wonder why landlords avoid RA tenants....


  • #16
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Next time, if possible, rent out rooms rather than the complete house.

    And people wonder why landlords avoid RA tenants....

    How is this anything to do with rent allowance it's a form of discrimination to say that- not so long ago it was "and people wonder why landlords avoid black/Irish/Muslim tenants". Blaming someone's non payment on the fact they are on rent allowance is a huge generalisation similar to all landlords are loaded.

    They didn't pay because they are selfish prats, at least with ra the landlord can get the payment stopped so the tenants don't have it either. You couldn't do that with someone's wages!!


  • #17
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    notjustsweet wrote: »
    How is this anything to do with rent allowance it's a form of discrimination to say that- not so long ago it was "and people wonder why landlords avoid black/Irish/Muslim tenants". Blaming someone's non payment on the fact they are on rent allowance is a huge generalisation similar to all landlords are loaded.

    They didn't pay because they are selfish prats, at least with ra the landlord can get the payment stopped so the tenants don't have it either. You couldn't do that with someone's wages!!

    People are generally rational. When you are renting an investment which can be worth several hundred thousand (even millions) to a tenant. You want to make sure you minimise your risk. RA tenants happen to cause a disproportionate amount of trouble for Landlords. My parents have never had a tenant default on their rent except for a RA tenant, who happened to be addicted to hash. My father often used to have to go in with Gardai to collect the rent, as he was often violent.

    Im not saying all RA tenants are trouble. But they create a disproportionate amount of it compared to professionals. A bank would expect a premium for lending to a creditor who had a high chance of default. Instead when a landlord rents to a RA tenant, it is often below market rate and the risk of them damaging the property/not paying rent is far higher.

    What difference does stopping a RA tenant rent allowance make compared to a professional? Professional rarely default on their rent like RA tenants. They want to make sure they have good references to rent in the future and have a proven track record for getting a mortgage.

    If the Government wants landlord to take on RA tenants. Dont "strengthen " discrimination laws. Make it possible to evict non-paying RA tenants quicker and have the payments made different to the landlord. I think some LLs might choose RA tenants over professionals, if the risk of non-paying tenants was elimated.


  • #18
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    Many different types of people have no option but to claim rent allowance, its paid to carers and disabled people as well as jobseekers. To say all those people can be tarred by the same brush because a few don't pay rent is very unfair.
    My own parents have 9+ rented houses, every type of person has lived in them over the years and no group are worse than the others. There's good and bad in every sector.

    I have a child with serious chronic illness .I have no option but to claim rent allowance, I've lived in my rented house for over 5 years and treat it very well yet I'm lumped in with prats like the ops tenants! People should be treated as individuals and the attitude to ra is discriminatory and shouldn't be allowed on boards.


  • #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    notjustsweet wrote: »
    the attitude to ra is discriminatory and shouldn't be allowed on boards.

    In fairness, the problem is not ra in itself. The problem is the dysfunctional irish legal system that would allow this tenant, who is basically thumbing his nose at everybody, to stay in the house for a year or more, without paying any rent. The landlord will be without his rent for that period, might be pushed into financial difficulties himself, and will likely have considerable expense in restoring the house to a lettable standard after the tenant leaves.
    Given that this scenario is by no means unusual and the consequences can be financially crippling, a landlord must factor it into his 'risk assessment' in deciding how to rent out his property.
    It might be politically correct to pretend that these fact don't exist, but its not reality.


  • #20
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    In fairness, the problem is not ra in itself. The problem is the dysfunctional irish legal system that would allow this tenant, who is basically thumbing his nose at everybody, to stay in the house for a year or more, without paying any rent. The landlord will be without his rent for that period, might be pushed into financial difficulties himself, and will likely have considerable expense in restoring the house to a lettable standard after the tenant leaves.
    Given that this scenario is by no means unusual and the consequences can be financially crippling, a landlord must factor it into his 'risk assessment' in deciding how to rent out his property.
    It might be politically correct to pretend that these fact don't exist, but its not reality.

    Yes I agree with you on some of those points. If I was a landlord I would expect the rent allowance to be paid directly to me from day one- any rent allowance tenants with even one missed payment should have their rent top up deducted from their welfare payment at source and paid to the landlord.

    The law needs be adjusted to be fairer to landlords which might be the only solution to the Ra discrimination.


  • #21
    harry999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭harry999


    Hi Anybody take an eviction case to PTRB recently and how long did this process take ? Thanks


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  • #22
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Mod note

    Again I'm asking posters to stay on topic, enough with the side discussions thanks.


  • #23
    Elemonator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    This is what I'm on about. Tenants get all the protection, landlords get none.


  • #24
    pc7
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    OP have you had any luck in timelines with PRTB would be interesting to have a timeline for something like this (alternatively hope your situation has improved and is sorted out).


  • #25
    harry999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭harry999


    Hi No nothing - a few people have told me it took them 2 years to get the tenant out... I heard that the PTRB are now faster - but have never heard it taking less than 2 years - so I think you can take it to be 2 years. And during this time you will get no rent.


  • #26
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    harry999 wrote: »
    Hi No nothing - a few people have told me it took them 2 years to get the tenant out... I heard that the PTRB are now faster - but have never heard it taking less than 2 years - so I think you can take it to be 2 years. And during this time you will get no rent.
    What about this method? Have you heard of anyone doing this?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057570384


  • #27
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    What about this method? Have you heard of anyone doing this?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057570384

    Still need to see the ptrb process through first
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #28
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Gatling wrote: »
    Still need to see the ptrb process through first

    What of it?


  • #29
    housetypeb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭housetypeb


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    What of it?

    You know why.
    The PRTB is slow,meanwhile the tenant is living rent free while the owner of the house is suffering loss of income for anything from three months up to two years, and the odds are that he won't see any arrears paid by the tenant at the end of it.
    There should be an quicker way to evict non paying tenants, the system is broken.
    Imho, non paying tenants should be out within 3 months max from date of first missed payment,landlords are not charities or providers of free housing.


  • #30
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    housetypeb wrote: »
    You know why.
    The PRTB is slow,meanwhile the tenant is living rent free while the owner of the house is suffering loss of income for anything from three months up to two years, and the odds are that he won't see any arrears paid by the tenant at the end of it.
    There should be an quicker way to evict non paying tenants, the system is broken.
    Imho, non paying tenants should be out within 3 months max from date of first missed payment,landlords are not charities or providers of free housing.

    It does not take two years to get an adjudication. I have had them in five weeks. Even with an appeal the is a new procedure to force the tenant to pay.
    Anyway the question I asked is do you know anyone who has availed of the method described in that blog?


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  • #31
    tigersauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 ✭tigersauce


    It will be 2 years in June since I started proceedings against non paying tenants, I got my court eviction in November, and notice for them to pay back 12000 in arrears, guess what they are still there not paying rent, while I work 2 jobs to pay my mortgage, believe you me I was an accidental landlord.

    They will be evicted I hope soon,but the prtb and the courts are very slow, I waiting on the sheriff now to do his job. and there is no doubt I will never see the arrears, I believe from neighbours my house is also wrecked.


  • #32
    darlett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,316 ✭✭✭darlett


    tigersauce wrote: »
    It will be 2 years in June since I started proceedings against non paying tenants, I got my court eviction in November, and notice for them to pay back 12000 in arrears, guess what they are still there not paying rent, while I work 2 jobs to pay my mortgage, believe you me I was an accidental landlord.

    They will be evicted I hope soon,but the prtb and the courts are very slow, I waiting on the sheriff now to do his job. and there is no doubt I will never see the arrears, I believe from neighbours my house is also wrecked.

    Hello Long time reader, first time poster! ;)

    As a landlord (that should probably get inverted commas but Ill hold 'em back) myself, I'm shocked to learn about this 2 year cycle to get someone living for free in your house out. There's that archaic image in the minds of much of the public of some ye olde English landlord evicting penniless Irish peasants out of their cottages during the famine and there seems in general to be zero sympathy for ordinary Irish landlords today in most situations.

    For me the reality is I purchased my keenly priced 5 figure property before my work situation changed (er ended) and I had to leave the country for employment. I was lucky enough to rent it out to so far (and touch wood) reliable tenants, and whilst I'm back now for last few months working and living with mammy and daddy. If my tenants stop paying their rent I really couldn't pay my mortgage. If it went on for 2 years? Really.

    And yet still people will go off on one about landlords as if they're all on the pig's back.


  • #33
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Sweeping generalisations and landlord V tenant posts are not welcome on this forum. Thanks


  • #34
    April 73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 846 ✭✭✭April 73


    tigersauce wrote: »
    It will be 2 years in June since I started proceedings against non paying tenants, I got my court eviction in November, and notice for them to pay back 12000 in arrears, guess what they are still there not paying rent, while I work 2 jobs to pay my mortgage, believe you me I was an accidental landlord.

    They will be evicted I hope soon,but the prtb and the courts are very slow, I waiting on the sheriff now to do his job. and there is no doubt I will never see the arrears, I believe from neighbours my house is also wrecked.

    That is absolutely horrific tigersauce. I hope it ends very soon for you.

    Why has it been so slow since the court order?

    Have you thought about going to your local TDs and telling them the story - not because they can help in the immediate situation - but until the people in the government understand the lack of timely & effective legislation to remove non-paying tenants, nothing will change.

    Your situation is shocking.


  • #35
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    tigersauce wrote: »
    It will be 2 years in June since I started proceedings against non paying tenants, I got my court eviction in November, and notice for them to pay back 12000 in arrears, guess what they are still there not paying rent, while I work 2 jobs to pay my mortgage, believe you me I was an accidental landlord.

    They will be evicted I hope soon,but the prtb and the courts are very slow, I waiting on the sheriff now to do his job. and there is no doubt I will never see the arrears, I believe from neighbours my house is also wrecked.

    Have you bought a criminal prosecution?


  • #36
    pc7
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    Jesus Tigersauce sorry to read that, what a clusterfook. Nightmare scenario.


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  • #37
    tigersauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 ✭tigersauce


    April 73 wrote: »
    That is absolutely horrific tigersauce. I hope it ends very soon for you.

    Why has it been so slow since the court order?

    Have you thought about going to your local TDs and telling them the story - not because they can help in the immediate situation - but until the people in the government understand the lack of timely & effective legislation to remove non-paying tenants, nothing will change.

    Your situation is shocking.

    Yes my TD knows about it, has been very helpful, there is not much he can do to speed anything up but has been helpful, the court order was in November, nothing was done cause of Christmas, the order then was mislaid in the court office.I am using the prtb solicitor.
    The prtb process is extremely slow to get an eviction and frankly needs to be sorted.

    if you go with your own solicitor it can cost upto 3,000.


  • #38
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,438 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Why is there not a list, a la Stubbs Gazette, listing tenants who have acted in the worst manner, as those described here have? Nothing defamatory. Simply verifiable facts, such as non-engagement with the process, amount of arrears unpaid, period of non payment, cost of restitution of property, etc. There'd be no need for 'RA not accepted' then. Just the knowledge that if you end up on the naughty list you'll never be rented to again.


  • #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    tigersauce wrote: »
    Yes my TD knows about it, has been very helpful, there is not much he can do

    Your case, horrible as it is, is by no means unusual. Your TD, in fact could have helped with these situations in general. The Troika identified reform of our dysfunctional legal system as something that needed doing, yet it is the only element of the Troika shopping list that wasn't complied with by the politicians.
    There is absolutely no reason why the system should have to take two years to process things like this.


  • #40
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • #41
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    draiochtanois wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    A landlord would have no remit to contact a tenant's employer. That could be construed as harassment.


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  • #42
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    A landlord would have no remit to contact a tenant's employer. That could be construed as harassment.

    Geez.. Everybody is afraid to do anything because somebody might be offended.
    As a choice between two years of hell and getting things sorted out quickly, its a no-brainer.
    Employers may or may not be helpful but a polite enquiry if things were allright could produce results. An employee not paying his rent for no good reason could be somebody with serious addiction or gambling problems, for example, whch would also make him a risk to the employer. There is also the possibly of reputational damage for the employer of it becomes known that they employ the kind of person who thinks its ok not to pay their debts.


  • #44
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    draiochtanois wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Geez.. Everybody is afraid to do anything because somebody might be offended.
    As a choice between two years of hell and getting things sorted out quickly, its a no-brainer.
    Employers may or may not be helpful but a polite enquiry if things were allright could produce results. An employee not paying his rent for no good reason could be somebody with serious addiction or gambling problems, for example, whch would also make him a risk to the employer. There is also the possibly of reputational damage for the employer of it becomes known that they employ the kind of person who thinks its ok not to pay their debts.

    Don't pretend that contacting an employer is out of some altruistic worry about the tenant. Sure, you can do it in a way that doesn't antagonise and get away without a charge of harassment but it's a tactic to turn the screws, nothing more.


  • #45
    pc7
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    If the employer gave a reference when they moved in could you then freely contact them?


  • #46
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • #47
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    draiochtanois wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I am asking for a civil process within the bounds of the law. Issue notice of rent arrears and notice of termination if they're not paying. Don't take the enforcement into your own hands by strong-arming them.


  • #48
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    tigersauce wrote: »
    It will be 2 years in June since I started proceedings against non paying tenants, I got my court eviction in November, and notice for them to pay back 12000 in arrears, guess what they are still there not paying rent, while I work 2 jobs to pay my mortgage, believe you me I was an accidental landlord.

    They will be evicted I hope soon,but the prtb and the courts are very slow, I waiting on the sheriff now to do his job. and there is no doubt I will never see the arrears, I believe from neighbours my house is also wrecked.

    There was a very interesting piece here recently, credit to the OP of that post, about the common informer system and bringing criminal proceedings. It might be worth running that by your solicitor.
    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    I am asking for a civil process within the bounds of the law. Issue notice of rent arrears and notice of termination if they're not paying. Don't take the enforcement into your own hands by strong-arming them.

    I could not agree more. What is phoning the employer going to do?

    I do not countenance or suggest you do it but if you're going to start this sort of thing you might as well just illegally evict and take the potential fallout from there.


  • #49
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,453 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    endacl wrote: »
    Why is there not a list, a la Stubbs Gazette, listing tenants who have acted in the worst manner, as those described here have? Nothing defamatory. Simply verifiable facts, such as non-engagement with the process, amount of arrears unpaid, period of non payment, cost of restitution of property, etc. There'd be no need for 'RA not accepted' then. Just the knowledge that if you end up on the naughty list you'll never be rented to again.

    Because it would simply encourage people to adopt false identities.


    draiochtanois wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    How would you know who their employer is? You may know at move in date, but you don't know if they've changed jobs since. (Unless there's a company car parked outside.)


  • #50
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • #51
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Can we get back on topic please? Thanks


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