Finishing a dose of antibiotics..

18-03-2016 06:54PM #1

I don't get it.. You're prescribed different amounts each time. They come in packs of x and the doctor barely looks at ya. How do our bodies know "well done, you've finished them."?

I live in a retarded place when it comes to antibiotics. You just buy them in the shop and ask for however many you want which is what I'm doing now. Had the same thing two years ago and they're working.
But the times I've been prescribed, it's always random anyways.. The dentist looks at ya for a few minutes and says "I'm not doing anything on that till you've had 5 days of Augmentin"..? How can he know that without a proper test like?

100% happy to learn by the way.

Alf Stewart. · 18-03-2016 07:01PM

How do our bodies know "well done, you've finished them."?

Obviously hasn't watched Disney's "inside out" movie.

Has much to learn.

18-03-2016 07:03PM

sugarman wrote: »

If you work in a paint shop, and have done for the last 20 years, and EVERY single day for those 20 years you have people come in and ask the same question.

"How many cans of paint do I need to cover x size?" You would know it instantly, wouldnt you?

Well, wouldnt the same apply to a qualified doctor, who studied medicine for the guts of 10 years, and then practiced it daily?

He wouldn't know how much the wood was rotting underneath though.

TallGlass · 18-03-2016 07:05PM

They don't is the simple answer. Not without testing for the level of infection and then daily tests until the CBC count is normal and shows the infection cleared/coming down, and start o reduce medication. Educated guess is what I think most doctors do based on previous studies for that particular infection.

diomed · 18-03-2016 07:20PM

Guesswork.

I came out of hospital after an infection that I got from a procedure at that hospital.
When leaving the hospital I was given a prescription that lasted a week. Twelve days after the pills ran out the infection came back.
My GP gave me a prescription for a week (his decision). Before the week was out the infection was getting worse.
I went back to my GP and got a prescription for a week. That seemed to work, but the infection returned three days after the pills ran out.
I went back to my GP and got a prescription for a week. That seemed to work, but the infection returned after the pills ran out.
I went back to my GP and he gave me a prescription for pills for six weeks. The pills ran out last week, and no problems this week.

endacl · 18-03-2016 07:23PM

Good to hear you're feeling better.

Discodog · 18-03-2016 07:26PM

I haven't visited a doctor for around 20 years. A lot of antibiotics aren't needed.
Try Manuka Honey. The reason why you are told to finish the course is that the symptoms stopping doesn't mean that you are better. You can feel better, stop the course & then the infection comes back stronger than before. Even worse it may of developed an immunity to the antibiotic.

Jimoslimos · 18-03-2016 08:39PM

Discodog wrote: »

I haven't visited a doctor for around 20 years. A lot of antibiotics aren't needed.
Try Manuka Honey. The reason why you are told to finish the course is that the symptoms stopping doesn't mean that you are better. You can feel better, stop the course & then the infection comes back stronger than before. Even worse it may of developed an immunity to the antibiotic.

Manuka honey is a massive racket. Or if you prefer an amazing marketing success story in how you can sell low-grade honey (which was previously used to sweeten livestock food) at extortionate prices with the help of some dubious science (funded by those producing the honey strangely enough).

There is absolutely no evidence to show that eating honey (of any type) has any antibiotic properties.

entropi · 18-03-2016 08:40PM

OP: normally, the studies on biologicals would determine the amount needed through trials and pharmacodynamic/pharmacokinetic data. This is not done by a G.P. or dentist, but by biochemists and pharmacists in biopharma research. The case you noted with the dentist is most likely due to their previous experience of seeing a tooth or gum in that condition before.

Discodog · 18-03-2016 08:47PM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Manuka honey is a massive racket. Or if you prefer an amazing marketing success story in how you can sell low-grade honey (which was previously used to sweeten livestock food) at extortionate prices with the help of some dubious science (funded by those producing the honey strangely enough).

There is absolutely no evidence to show that eating honey (of any type) has any antibiotic properties.

I have a science research background. I am convinced that it works & that's good enough for me.

Jimoslimos · 18-03-2016 09:01PM

Discodog wrote: »

I have a science research background. I am convinced that it works & that's good enough for me.

Appeal to authority logical fallacy. Anyway your first sentence is incompatible with the second.

Bio Mech · 18-03-2016 09:10PM

Discodog wrote: »

I haven't visited a doctor for around 20 years. A lot of antibiotics aren't needed.
Try Manuka Honey. The reason why you are told to finish the course is that the symptoms stopping doesn't mean that you are better. You can feel better, stop the course & then the infection comes back stronger than before. Even worse it may of developed an immunity to the antibiotic.

Manuka Honey. Sigh.

Don't get your kids vaccinated just give them Manuka honey. Be grand.

Discodog · 18-03-2016 09:11PM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Appeal to authority logical fallacy. Anyway your first sentence is incompatible with the second.

I tried it over 20 years ago, it worked & it's still working. Maybe it's a fabulous placebo?

Del2005 · 18-03-2016 09:11PM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Manuka honey is a massive racket. Or if you prefer an amazing marketing success story in how you can sell low-grade honey (which was previously used to sweeten livestock food) at extortionate prices with the help of some dubious science (funded by those producing the honey strangely enough).

There is absolutely no evidence to show that eating honey (of any type) has any antibiotic properties.

The placebo affect does work for some people and not for others, just like a course of antibiotics that cures my infected thumb might not cure your infected thumb.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34572482

Bio Mech · 18-03-2016 09:12PM

Discodog wrote: »

I tried it over 20 years ago, it worked & it's still working. Maybe it's a fabulous placebo?

Lisa i want to buy your rock.

Samaris · 18-03-2016 09:20PM

Del2005 wrote: »

The placebo affect does work for some people and not for others, just like a course of antibiotics that cures my infected thumb might not cure your infected thumb.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34572482

Discodog wrote: »

I have a science research background. I am convinced that it works & that's good enough for me.

What was your science research in, as a matter of interest?

Yes, a course of antibiotics may not work on two different people, but in general, it can be expected to. Reasons being that one person, we'll call him A, has perhaps been exposed to a lot of antibiotics before and his body is now accustomed to them (to give the overly simplistic concept) and they are less efficient, or perhaps a couple of genetic issues or, as in my own experience with Augmentin Duo, he's 'orribly allergic to it and his tongue swells to four times its usual size.

But, in general, X dose of antibiotics against a new bacterial infection (less efficient on a recurring infection) can be expected to sort the problem out.

Manuka, in theory, has ..antibiotic properties, just at a much lower dose and more inefficiently applied. The specific antibiotic property does not (yet) have a developing bacterial resistance to it, so it may be useful, particularly topically, for burns and non-diabetes-related ulcers. And if anyone so much as breathes the nonsense about it curing cancer, just remember that someday there will be an app for making a boxing glove spring out of your screen.

Gru · 18-03-2016 09:20PM

If you don't take the full course then there's a good chance the infection will return as the antibiotics will not have fully removed it from your system. Presumably based on medical studies and the likely illness you are affected by the doctor prescribes a dose/length of antibiotics to safely kill the infection with time to spare.

Another issue with not completing the course of antibiotics is that any remaining pathogen could develop an immunity to the antibiotic and render it useless for you in the future and potentially others as well.

Please please please finish any course of antibiotics prescribed to you.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 18-03-2016 09:25PM

Don't forget the natural yogurt when you finish the course!!

DareGod · 18-03-2016 09:58PM

It is a brave person who mentions anything to do with anything even mildly related to homeopathy on After Hours.

If it's not a pharmaceutical drug sold by the pharmaceutical industry and that has been proven by pharmaceutical industry-funded research, then obviously it can't be of any benefit to anyone.

DareGod · 18-03-2016 10:00PM

Anyway, back on topic, did anyone else find the wording in the OP difficult to understand?

Ice Maiden · 18-03-2016 10:03PM

DareGod wrote: »

It is a brave person who mentions anything to do with even mildly related to homeopathy on After Hours.

If it's not a drug that has been proven by pharmaceutical industry-funded research , then obviously it can't be of any benefit to anyone.

Well I wouldn't put stock into drugs at all times, but I would have more faith in something that has been put through several scientific tests following huge scientific research, rather than something that people think seems to work. And that doesn't mean I would dismiss all the natural medicinal stuff either though, even if it is only the placebo effect at play.
I have chronic sinus trouble, and one of the best things for keeping them decongested and warding off infection? A set solution of salt and bicarbonate of soda mixed into warm water and squirted up the nose. But when the infection/inflammation wins (usually spurred on by a head-cold or chest infection or allergies) only penicillin (in its original form: mould - hence the natural yogurt recommendation for the ladies

and this is a good natural treatment) and steroids will kill it. I don't want to be taking those strong medicines if I can avoid them though, so they are a last resort. E.g. right now. Recently got a pretty bad head cold going around - all I did for that was sleep, one of the best treatments ever for mild illnesses, and that killed the head cold fever and symptoms in less than two days. But the aftermath was severely clogged up sinuses/ears, headache, pressure etc. I used my salt-water wash loads but it only soothed briefly, didn't help get rid, so then I caved in and went to the doc . I feel so much better now though after two days on Augmentin and Prednisolone (will be on them for five days in total) as the congestion is rapidly draining away. But these medicines can have uncomfortable side effects for some, like sick stomach, so I can understand people being hesitant to take them.

Another term for homeopathic/holistic/natural medicine is complementary medicine - this is how I would see it. Not the be all, but certainly worth "accessorising" treatment with.

Del2005 · 18-03-2016 10:04PM

Samaris wrote: »

What was your science research in, as a matter of interest?

I just Googled placebo affect, other people can do research as I'm not a scientist.

DareGod · 18-03-2016 10:07PM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Well I wouldn't put stock into drugs at all times, but I would have more faith in something that has been put through several scientific tests following huge scientific research, rather than something that people think seems to work. And that doesn't mean I would dismiss all the natural medicinal stuff either though, even if it is only the placebo effect at play.
I have chronic sinus trouble, and one of the best things for keeping them decongested and warding off infection? A set solution of salt and bicarbonate of soda mixed into warm water and squirted up the nose. But when the infection/inflammation wins (usually spurred on by a head-cold or chest infection) only penicillin (in its original form: mould - hence the natural yogurt recommendation for the ladies ) and steroids will kill it.

Your opinion sounds informed and based on experience.

Most of the opinions posted on this website, on this topic, are not.

DareGod · 18-03-2016 10:08PM

Bio Mech wrote: »

Manuka Honey. Sigh.

Don't get your kids vaccinated just give them Manuka honey. Be grand.

That is an atrocious response and not at all what was suggested. I'm pretty sure there's already a moronic herd mentality anti-homeopathy circle-jerk thread elsewhere on AH. I suggest you go and get it all out of your system over there.

Ice Maiden · 18-03-2016 10:10PM

There's a saying "Let food be your medicine" - of course there are naturally occurring substances that help keep you healthy (if not necessarily illness curing - hence the need for man-made treatments also).

Jimoslimos · 18-03-2016 10:46PM

DareGod wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there's already a moronic herd mentality anti-homeopathy circle-jerk thread elsewhere on AH.

That's an interesting way of saying "evidence-based medicine":rolleyes:

Alf Veedersane · 18-03-2016 10:57PM

Isn't there something about there being more manuka honey sold than could possibly be produced?

Anyhoo, the genuine stuff is known to have some genuine antimicrobial qualities but at the same time I'd rather put my faith in medicines that have been developed and tested to work on particular illnesses rather than just take manuka honey and hope that it's a good match for what I want to rid myself of.

entropi · 18-03-2016 11:01PM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

That's an interesting way of saying "evidence-based medicine":rolleyes:

First rule of the book. If you can't comment with anything valuable to the argument, start the insults.

Ice Maiden · 18-03-2016 11:25PM

Modern medicine is great - look at how much better our lives are with it, than lives were even only in the early part of the last century.

If people believe in homeopathic treatments, fair enough - but it is not grounds to dismiss scientific medicine.

Jimoslimos · 18-03-2016 11:25PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Anyhoo, the genuine stuff is known to have some genuine antimicrobial qualities but at the same time I'd rather put my faith in medicines that have been developed and tested to work on particular illnesses rather than just take manuka honey and hope that it's a good match for what I want to rid myself of.

Honey in general has antimicrobial properties on wounds because it is a very viscous hygroscopic liquid. Meaning water is drawn from the bacteria by osmosis. However I'd caution against anyone using the stuff on your supermarket shelf in this way since honey can harbour some pretty nasty spores.

Swallowing it down with a slice of toast does absolutely nothing, zilch, nada...other than taste pretty good!

sheep-go-baa · 18-03-2016 11:41PM

Doctors will generally decide how long a course based on years of experience or if they are uncertain can use blood tests.

It's very important to always finish a course of antibiotics and not just stop when you feel better because of antibiotic resistance. The idea behind antibiotics is to kill the bacteria. But if you stop taking antibiotics before the full course is done then not all the bacteria will have died. But the ones who have survived will then be able to develop a resistance to the antibiotic. Having been exposed to the drug and survived. They can then multiple massively and hey presto you have a bacteria that an antibiotic wont work on. This is part of the reason for superbugs like MRSA and VRE. Antibiotic resistance is a major global medical problem and its up to everyone to not make it worse by not finishing a full course of antibiotics

endacl · 19-03-2016 04:56PM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Manuka honey is a massive racket. Or if you prefer an amazing marketing success story in how you can sell low-grade honey (which was previously used to sweeten livestock food) at extortionate prices with the help of some dubious science (funded by those producing the honey strangely enough).

There is absolutely no evidence to show that eating honey (of any type) has any antibiotic properties.

It does, but only when used topically. That's why doctors prescribe augmentin, while the go to treatment of choice for yoga teachers is bee vomit.

MadsL · 19-03-2016 05:50PM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

If people believe in homeopathic treatments, fair enough -

Except when it kills?

http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/raymond-toddler-death-trial-stephan-1.3481958

moc moc a moc · 19-03-2016 06:06PM

Discodog wrote: »

I tried it over 20 years ago, it worked & it's still working. Maybe it's a fabulous placebo?

I eat manuka honey, and I've never been eaten by a shark. Clearly this is ample evidence that manuka honey is an effective shark repellant.

Ice Maiden · 19-03-2016 06:07PM

MadsL wrote: »

Except when it kills?

http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/raymond-toddler-death-trial-stephan-1.3481958

Yes except when it kills, of course.

Samaris · 20-03-2016 11:28AM

Del2005 wrote: »

I just Googled placebo affect, other people can do research as I'm not a scientist.

Nah, that wasn't to you, the other fella I quoted was doing a false expert "I'm a research scientist" thing before making his opinion.

Hells, I'M a research scientist, BUT it's in the field of environmental science. To claim any expertise in the field of food science or pharma would be disingenuous at best and completely dishonest at worst. No reputable scientist should preface an opinion on something outside their field of study with saying that they're a scientist and leaving out the discipline.

Edit: Mind you, mistakes happen, especially in the fast-typing world of chatting online. It's just a trap people should be aware of.

Discodog · 20-03-2016 07:10PM

Samaris wrote: »

Nah, that wasn't to you, the other fella I quoted was doing a false expert "I'm a research scientist" thing before making his opinion.

Hells, I'M a research scientist, BUT it's in the field of environmental science. To claim any expertise in the field of food science or pharma would be disingenuous at best and completely dishonest at worst. No reputable scientist should preface an opinion on something outside their field of study with saying that they're a scientist and leaving out the discipline.

Edit: Mind you, mistakes happen, especially in the fast-typing world of chatting online. It's just a trap people should be aware of.

I didn't say that but don't let it stop you jumping to conclusions. I have a Science degree & have peer revued papers. My subject was also Environmental Science & I spent 10 years working in the field.

But I didn't mention that as a way to justify my opinion. Manuka was suggested to me over 20 years ago when I had a stomach ulcer by my consultant. He suggested giving it a try & I got better. Maybe the Manuka, maybe not.

I have used it every now & then for various issues. I am not claiming magical powers. And as a former scientist I am naturally very sceptical & aware of the need for proof.

Jimoslimos · 20-03-2016 08:47PM

Discodog wrote: »

But I didn't mention that as a way to justify my opinion.

But you did. Otherwise what was the point in prefacing your opinion with the following;

Discodog wrote: »

I have a science research background. I am convinced that it works & that's good enough for me.

Discodog wrote: »

Manuka was suggested to me over 20 years ago when I had a stomach ulcer by my consultant. He suggested giving it a try & I got better. Maybe the Manuka, maybe not.

I have used it every now & then for various issues. I am not claiming magical powers. And as a former scientist I am naturally very sceptical & aware of the need for proof.

Sceptical? I don't think so, not going by the statement below. You're not claiming magical powers, however you are suggesting it has medicinal properties

Discodog wrote: »

I am convinced that it works & that's good enough for me.

Samaris · 20-03-2016 09:58PM

Jimoslimos pretty much covered it!

I wouldn't have gone into the explanation of why I commented on it bar the other chap thought I meant him thanks to slightly awkward posting from myself.

In fairness, the balance of the evidence suggests some mild antibiotic properties to the stuff, albeit there's a difference between medical grade stuff and bought-in-the-shop honey. It seems to be primarily useful when applied topically, and perhaps that would cover a stomach ulcer too, given it is sorta a surface lesion, albeit on an inner surface.

PLL · 20-03-2016 10:11PM

Severity of infection. In my case it's recurrent kidney/bladder infections where severity is gauged by proteins/ketones in urine.

I've been given 5 days, 7 days, 10 days, 12 days worth of antibiotics.
5 days when I can feel an infection coming on.
12 days after I ended up in hospital after collapsing with my first ever kidney infection - the pain was terrifying.

So as much as I have much love and praise for antibiotics as I probably would be minus a kidney without them, my 4 year old has never had to take them so far and I give her homeopathic treatments for colds/coughs which have obviously helped as I've never had to take her to the doctor, again, so far.

I do believe antibiotics are overused and people see them as the first solution, and they're not. I may have had to take many courses for my urinary infections, there are also plenty of times I've just drank shíte loads of water and cranberry juice first and it works.

As for Manuka honey, my Dad thinks it's magical elixir, for eating as well as smearing on himself. Placebo or not it helps him so it's doing a job. Placebos are also very powerful imo.

AtomicHorror · 20-03-2016 11:39PM

PLL wrote: »

As for Manuka honey, my Dad thinks it's magical elixir, for eating as well as smearing on himself. Placebo or not it helps him so it's doing a job. Placebos are also very powerful imo.

Placebo effect is mostly related to pain, it tends to be invoked to explain all manner of mystery effects, but mostly those turn out to be coincidences, statistical cock-ups and fabrications.

Discodog wrote: »

I didn't say that but don't let it stop you jumping to conclusions. I have a Science degree & have peer revued papers. My subject was also Environmental Science & I spent 10 years working in the field.

Not saying you can't cross fields (we all do it), but this still smells a bit of argument from authority. Why mention your credentials at all?

Discodog wrote: »

I am not claiming magical powers. And as a former scientist I am naturally very sceptical & aware of the need for proof.

So why are you going with "it worked for me and that's evidence enough"? You're a scientist, so you ought to recall the saying "the plural of anecdote is not data". Also, "proof" is a word for mathematicians and law types, not scientists.

Finishing a dose of antibiotics..

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