Emigrant votes - Yay or Nay?

The Randy Riverbeast · 18-05-2016 05:39PM

I see no reason why a person who is gone for a short time cant vote. I can understand not letting people who never have or never will set foot in Ireland again voting but the arguments against not letting anyone vote are quite poorly thought out.

mahoganygas · 18-05-2016 05:52PM

It's a tricky question but I'd tend to lean towards retaining the current system.

You could have somebody who paid taxes for 10 years but then moved to Australia who feels hard done by. Which is a fair point. But what constituency do they want to vote in? Their 'home' constituency? That hardly seems fair on the constituents who remained behind to work and live. Their lives are controlled by a person who lives thousands of miles away.
I'd argue that after a few years abroad, they become out of touch with specific local (and national) issues. It's all well and good to read newspapers and look at facebook. But you don't have to live with the consequences of your vote if you're sitting in Scruffy Murphy's having a pint.

Another point that sticks in my mind and will probably get me slated here. Some emigrants (and I do not mean all) left when the economy was in the toilet and want to return now that the economy is improving. I completely understand that jobs were scarce and some people were forced to leave. But I know a hell of a lot of people who were not forced to leave, but chose to leave because there was better paid work in Sydney, and they could tag on a year of backpacking at the end. From personal experiences, these people seem to be the first to complain about 'backwards' Ireland and will slate our economy from abroad, while they live in a completely different economic climate. It's not begrudgery. Far from it, I'm delighted that these people have found great lives abroad. I've backpacked and lived abroad myself. But the Irish economy is not improving because of Irish people in Australia. It's improving because Irish people stayed behind and went to work despite pay cuts/p45s/austerity/take your pick.

I need to stress that I'm speaking from personal experiences and that this obviously doesn't apply to everybody who left during the recession. I know many people who couldn't find work and had to leave. But I also know a lot of people who would have you believe they were forced out of the country by the IMF with only the clothes on their back despite doing a round the world holiday on their way to a fine paying job in Australia.

Tl;dr if you're willing to contribute to Irish society by living here then you should have the vote.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 18-05-2016 06:04PM

I'm English, and have lived here since my early 20s (almost 30 years ago). Last year I went back to help my father recover from a serious operation and stayed for 12 months before coming back "home" to Cork. Now it turns out I'm entitled to vote in all UK elections and referendums for the next 15 years as I registered for the vote while I was back in England.

I feel far more Irish than British by this stage, and I'm going to use my UK votes in any way that I feel may help Ireland; for example I'm going to vote against Brexit because I believe it's in Ireland's interests for the UK to remain in Europe. I do recognise that this isn't really fair of me - I no longer live in the UK so I shouldn't be allowed to vote in their elections. I'd feel the same way about the Irish abroad - their votes won't affect them personally but they could well affect everyone that lives here, and that doesn't seem right.

K-9 · 18-05-2016 06:14PM

@eire4, When do they pay VAT?

Minderbinder · 18-05-2016 06:17PM

I've been away for five of the last six years and whether or not I could vote didn't bother me at all. I think most people who have been away for a while would have very little interest in voting in Irish elections. I also don't think they should be entitled to vote.

As usual I think there are a small minority of people who want this from a personal point of view and they're trying to speak for all the Irish people abroad.

Samaris · 18-05-2016 06:35PM

Nope, if you're not in the house, you don't get to vote on what everyone else has for dinner!

KingBrian2 · 18-05-2016 06:46PM

Why should outsiders who don't reside or come to Dublin or Ennis vote in local elections over here. They gave up their right to vote when they visited the four seas. Can I vote for Trump in America or Putin in Russia. And saying their Irish means nothing we have British citizens they vote in Ireland the Republic as it applies to them.

Galwayguy35 · 18-05-2016 06:56PM

Let them vote to elect the President if they want but no way should people not here anymore have a say in who runs the country for those of us living here.

The Randy Riverbeast · 18-05-2016 07:17PM

Most of the population is clearly fine with voting for something which doesnt affect them. The same sex marriage referendum had one of the highest turn outs and yet didn't affect the vast majority of them.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Why should outsiders who don't reside or come to Dublin or Ennis vote in local elections over here. They gave up their right to vote when they visited the four seas. Can I vote for Trump in America or Putin in Russia. And saying their Irish means nothing we have British citizens they vote in Ireland the Republic as it applies to them.

Dont know about russia but overseas is a "state" for US voting so if you can vote in the US when there then you can vote from another country.

eire4 · 18-05-2016 07:45PM

mahoganygas wrote: »

It's a tricky question but I'd tend to lean towards retaining the current system.

You could have somebody who paid taxes for 10 years but then moved to Australia who feels hard done by. Which is a fair point. But what constituency do they want to vote in? Their 'home' constituency? That hardly seems fair on the constituents who remained behind to work and live. Their lives are controlled by a person who lives thousands of miles away.
I'd argue that after a few years abroad, they become out of touch with specific local (and national) issues. It's all well and good to read newspapers and look at facebook. But you don't have to live with the consequences of your vote if you're sitting in Scruffy Murphy's having a pint.

Another point that sticks in my mind and will probably get me slated here. Some emigrants (and I do not mean all) left when the economy was in the toilet and want to return now that the economy is improving. I completely understand that jobs were scarce and some people were forced to leave. But I know a hell of a lot of people who were not forced to leave, but chose to leave because there was better paid work in Sydney, and they could tag on a year of backpacking at the end. From personal experiences, these people seem to be the first to complain about 'backwards' Ireland and will slate our economy from abroad, while they live in a completely different economic climate. It's not begrudgery. Far from it, I'm delighted that these people have found great lives abroad. I've backpacked and lived abroad myself. But the Irish economy is not improving because of Irish people in Australia. It's improving because Irish people stayed behind and went to work despite pay cuts/p45s/austerity/take your pick.

I need to stress that I'm speaking from personal experiences and that this obviously doesn't apply to everybody who left during the recession. I know many people who couldn't find work and had to leave. But I also know a lot of people who would have you believe they were forced out of the country by the IMF with only the clothes on their back despite doing a round the world holiday on their way to a fine paying job in Australia.

Tl;dr if you're willing to contribute to Irish society by living here then you should have the vote.

You solve your issue there by creating an oversees constituency wihich those Irish born citizens living abroad would vote into giving them a voice but in any way which can unduly influence the dail.

eire4 · 18-05-2016 07:46PM

K-9 wrote: »

@eire4, When do they pay VAT?

every time they come home.

eire4 · 18-05-2016 07:49PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Why should outsiders who don't reside or come to Dublin or Ennis vote in local elections over here. They gave up their right to vote when they visited the four seas. Can I vote for Trump in America or Putin in Russia. And saying their Irish means nothing we have British citizens they vote in Ireland the Republic as it applies to them.

No they didn't give up their right to vote when they left. Ireland has made a decision at least our governmnet has to deny the vote to Irish born citizens living abroad they didn't give anything up willingly.
As for voting in other countries if your not a natural born citizen of said country then its irrelevant as a point.

eire4 · 18-05-2016 07:54PM

Minderbinder wrote: »

I've been away for five of the last six years and whether or not I could vote didn't bother me at all. I think most people who have been away for a while would have very little interest in voting in Irish elections. I also don't think they should be entitled to vote.

As usual I think there are a small minority of people who want this from a personal point of view and they're trying to speak for all the Irish people abroad.

No I support it because it a good way of including those talented Irish people in our country and encouraging them to feel part of our country and maybe to even extend a helping hand at times. We have many talanted and connected Irish born citizens living abroad. Our emigrants have been a benefit to our country for a long time its long over due that we gave them a say in our country and its future as they are as Irish too.

KingBrian2 · 18-05-2016 08:36PM

eire4 wrote: »

No they didn't give up their right to vote when they left. Ireland has made a decision at least our governmnet has to deny the vote to Irish born citizens living abroad they didn't give anything up willingly.
As for voting in other countries if your not a natural born citizen of said country then its irrelevant as a point.

They left due to economic circumstance. If they really cared about Ireland they would remain aware of developments back home which I'm sure some do but a lot them only care about their income.

ancapailldorcha · 18-05-2016 09:25PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

They left due to economic circumstance. If they really cared about Ireland they would remain aware of developments back home which I'm sure some do but a lot them only care about their income.

Who doesn't care about their income? Are you saying that I should leave a decent paid job abroad that I like for a worse paid one in Ireland that I'll likely be disengaged with?

KingBrian2 · 18-05-2016 09:35PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Who doesn't care about their income? Are you saying that I should leave a decent paid job abroad that I like for a worse paid one in Ireland that I'll likely be disengaged with?

I'm saying they put the interest of their own passions ahead of what is good for this country or for society anywhere. People want them to vote in our elections.

ancapailldorcha · 18-05-2016 09:36PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I'm saying they put the interest of their own passions ahead of what is good for this country or for society anywhere. People want them to vote in our elections.

What's wrong with that? That's how everyone votes.

The Randy Riverbeast · 18-05-2016 09:45PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I'm saying they put the interest of their own passions ahead of what is good for this country or for society anywhere. People want them to vote in our elections.

You mean they vote FF? Ive changed my mind, lets ban anyone who supports FF from voting.

KingBrian2 · 18-05-2016 10:34PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What's wrong with that? That's how everyone votes.

When people vote in Ireland we are voting for the people we have to see their faces every day.

K-9 · 18-05-2016 11:04PM

eire4 wrote: »

every time they come home.

Sure tourists pay Irish VAT, so they should get a vote?

eire4 · 19-05-2016 05:51PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

They left due to economic circumstance. If they really cared about Ireland they would remain aware of developments back home which I'm sure some do but a lot them only care about their income.

There is no question many did leave Ireland because their economic prospects were not looking good at all. By doing that they actually already helped us because they took themselves off being a burden on us in terms of social welfare payments. If all the people who emigrated for instance after the economic collapse in 2008 had stayed in Ireland it would have massively imcreased the financial crisis we as as country faced. So in that regard they actually helped us.

As for keeping up to date with developments at home. I am sure many do and many don't just as can be said for anybody living in Ireland. Some people are informed some not and some in between.

eire4 · 19-05-2016 05:54PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I'm saying they put the interest of their own passions ahead of what is good for this country or for society anywhere. People want them to vote in our elections.

Actually they did the direct opposite. By not becoming a burden on our social welfare system they helped the country tremedously especially when you look at the large number who emigrated in the years post 2008. If they had all stayed at home the financial crisis would have been even worse given the added financial burden they would have placed on the government.

eire4 · 19-05-2016 05:59PM

K-9 wrote: »

Sure tourists pay Irish VAT, so they should get a vote?

Well firstly your the one who brought up VAT when I pointed out that if you deny Irish born citizens the right to vote in Ireland because they don't pay taxes (I took that to mean income tax) then you would also have to deny Irish people living in Ireland the vote who don't earn enough to pay tax. You then brough up VAT as a tax that the poor in Ireland would still be paying.

I pointed out many Irish born citizens visit home reguarly and thus pay VAT so based on what you yourself said they should be allowed vote.

Tourists do indeed pay VAT also. Although I should say that they can get some of that back when they leave the country. But nonetheless they cannot vote because they are not Irish born citizens.

KingBrian2 · 19-05-2016 06:05PM

eire4 wrote: »

Actually they did the direct opposite. By not becoming a burden on our social welfare system they helped the country tremedously especially when you look at the large number who emigrated in the years post 2008. If they had all stayed at home the financial crisis would have been even worse given the added financial burden they would have placed on the government.

You consider Kinahan doing his best for the country.

K-9 · 19-05-2016 07:03PM

eire4 wrote: »

Well firstly your the one who brought up VAT when I pointed out that if you deny Irish born citizens the right to vote in Ireland because they don't pay taxes (I took that to mean income tax) then you would also have to deny Irish people living in Ireland the vote who don't earn enough to pay tax. You then brough up VAT as a tax that the poor in Ireland would still be paying.

I pointed out many Irish born citizens visit home reguarly and thus pay VAT so based on what you yourself said they should be allowed vote.

Tourists do indeed pay VAT also. Although I should say that they can get some of that back when they leave the country. But nonetheless they cannot vote because they are not Irish born citizens.

Exactly, there's no point in us going down that rabbit hole too far!

Some type of time limit might be workable, say up to 10 years after somebody left the country or when they apply for citizenship to another country.

eire4 · 19-05-2016 07:08PM

K-9 wrote: »

Exactly, there's no point in us going down that rabbit hole too far!

Some type of time limit might be workable, say up to 10 years after somebody left the country or when they apply for citizenship to another country.

Your the one who brought it up not me. But certainly there are many ways where we can bring our Irish born emigrants into the fold without doing anything that causes some unreasonable disruption to the country such as my suggestion of having an emigrant constituency for the Dail that has a couple of TD's that give the Irish born citizens living abroad a voice and a representation in their country.

Podge_irl · 19-05-2016 07:13PM

eire4 wrote: »

Your the one who brought it up not me. But certainly there are many ways where we can bring our Irish born emigrants into the fold without doing anything that causes some unreasonable disruption to the country such as my suggestion of having an emigrant constituency for the Dail that has a couple of TD's that give the Irish born citizens living abroad a voice and a representation in their country.

That would presumably require a referendum. The make-up of the Dail is (broadly) defined in the constitution.

K-9 · 19-05-2016 07:20PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

That would presumably require a referendum. The make-up of the Dail is (broadly) defined in the constitution.

I'd assume so, eg. the constituencies get redrawn every so often to meet constitutional requirements.

KingBrian2 · 19-05-2016 07:30PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

That would presumably require a referendum. The make-up of the Dail is (broadly) defined in the constitution.

The Dáil is there to make Irish law not the public. We don't ask non citizens to participate in voting for Irish TD's. Anyone who wants to vote is entitled to vote and one of the requirements is being a resident of the country. Australians, Canadians, British and Americans might have Irish ethnicity but without citizenship then they should be precluded from voting.

snubbleste · 19-05-2016 07:50PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The Dáil is there to make Irish law not the public. We don't ask non citizens to participate in voting for Irish TD's. Anyone who wants to vote is entitled to vote and one of the requirements is being a resident of the country. Australians, Canadians, British and Americans might have Irish ethnicity but without citizenship then they should be precluded from voting.

Well actually, Brits can vote in Dáil elections

Emigrant votes - Yay or Nay?

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