Teenage girl dies on street from peanut allergy

Tasden

DannieHasAFanny wrote: »

its stupid how people are afraid of getting sued or whatever if they do something without permission.

It makes me sick to my stomach thinking about this.

Tbh I doubt it was fear of being sued that was the issue here. The pharmacist was presented with a situation where she had to make a decision in that split second (perhaps not even knowing the full extent) and what she has been trained and told is that morally/ professionally/ legally/whatever she is not permitted to give particular medication without a prescription. This is for the safety of members of the public and yeah a little covering of their own back. But I highly doubt the pharmacist thought to herself "well if I save this dying child I might get sued so better not." She made a split decision based on her training and obligations as a pharmacist (or whatever her job title is, I don't know the terms so apologies if that's the wrong term) and the facts presented to her at the time and unfortunately in this case it had tragic consequences.
Its very sad though, heartbreaking to think how quick it can happen and over something so simple.

cantdecide

Forgive my ignorance but is it possible that someone with this type of allergy could have an unfilled prescription for such an emergency? Is there a bracelet that can be carried or some way of showing that a severe allergy is present?

Sympathies to all involved. God, 14 years old...

username123

truebluesac wrote: »

The a&e are only told by the controle room if the ambulance deems it is nessary . If you arrive by ambulance for anything other than a life saving aliment you are triaged like everyone else . This case however would have been rang ahead and a team waiting in the resus

Well yes, there is no need to inform A&E staff if its simply a dislocation or something non life threatening - Im sorry, I presumed that would have been stating the obvious.

truebluesac

Jernal wrote: »

I don't dispute that. The point is though that the injection can kill you if you strike it through a vein. Rare and odd as that might be to happen. Few medicines fall into that category of being fatal almost instantly.

I administer the same medication through a vein and i havnt killed anyone yet .

Aestivalis

Aestivalis wrote: »

Fair enough. But just remember, in an emergency like this not calling for an ambulance, and trying to walk the girl to the hospital ultimately delayed treatment with dire consequences.
Not calling for an ambulance has to be the most naive thing anybody can do during a medical emergency. In dublin city I reckon it would have been there in 10-15 minutes.

In this case the ambulance response time you give wouldn't have mattered, they made it a few steps before she collapsed and died. A taxi from where it happened to the nearest hospital would've taken 10 minutes or less, I've had buses at rush hour do it in 15. The ambulance thing isn't much of a factor in this case though, at face value at least.

truebluesac

username123 wrote: »

Well yes, there is no need to inform A&E staff if its simply a dislocation or something non life threatening - Im sorry, I presumed that would have been stating the obvious.

The a&e's dont get our dispatch info , they are only informed of what we are en route with and ETA after we on the ambulance inform them . Which is not what your post said

username123

Deleted User wrote: »

After past experience I'm never, ever calling an ambulance again. Never have they arrived quicker than a taxi would've gotten the person to the hospital.

Depends on the nature of your emergency and your proximity to the hospital of course, but generally speaking, if the nature of the emergency is life or death situation the ambulance will at least make efforts to get there quickly. The important thing to remember is that taxi men cannot give possibly life saving treatment in the taxi - paramedics can in the ambulance.

In saying that, I have never had to call 999 with a life or death situation where time is a factor (and I hope I never do).

Rachiee

Just to say Hamilton long are an absolutely excellent pharmacy. I work in a local drug project and they really go out of their way to help our client group and deal with extremely difficult behaviour for their efforts. They often absorb the prescription charge of homeless people unable to afford it to ensure that they get their necessary medications. My sympathies to the family it is truly horrific.

danniemcq

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

Its unfair to expect a pharmacist to have that kind of information off the top of their head though. Its a terribly sad thing to happen, and so close to christmas as well.

not really, I get where you are coming form that they can't know everything but this is something that they should know, every allergy i can think of right now requires adrenaline

The Dark Lord Cthulhu wrote: »

Is there only specifc places the shot can be given? With bad results otherwise?

Fleshy part of the thigh around the arse. If a person is wearing thick clothes ypou'll have to pull them down to get access as the needle isn't all that long

Riskymove wrote: »

thanks for that I hadn't realised that

I'm not sure it covers a situation like that which occured yesterday though - i.e. allowing someone to dispense emergency medicine.

Be interesting to here more about that though.

It should though especially when its something like a pen being requested by the mother, its not something you can get high from or anything

true-or-false wrote: »

It's not the scared person's fault, it's the fault of the people who would sue you even if you were saving their life without permission. Anyway, it's not all about suing, there's also the possibility that there's been a misdiagnosis, or that you're being manipulated.


But you're looking at peanut allergy vs. no peanut allergy. What if the person looks like they're having anaphylactic shock but is in fact suffering from something else. Adrenaline can be very dangerous in some circumstances. Not if you're healthy, but surely if you're in a situation where someone is considering giving you an epipen shot and you're not having an allergy reaction there must be something else very wrong.

There isn't much else that looks like an anaphylactic shock, and you have to remember that during a life and death situation your body is flooding itself with adrenaline. adding more isn't going to have any adverse affects on it. IF nothing changes in the situation then its something else yes and be sure to say you gave adrenaline to any docs or whatever when they arrive

Theta wrote: »

First Aiders aren't even supposed to administer someones inhaler, your supposed to hand it to them and "assist"

First aiders in this country aren't worth a tuppence in most cases due to regulations, not a criticism btw, its not your fault. You guys are awesome!

Aestivalis

Deleted User wrote: »

In this case the ambulance response time you give wouldn't have mattered, they made it a few steps before she collapsed and died. A taxi from where it happened to the nearest hospital would've taken 10 minutes or less, I've had buses at rush hour do it in 15. The ambulance thing isn't much of a factor in this case though, at face value at least.

I strongly disagree. Time is everything, and why drag a patient to an unsuspecting A&E when a mobile A&E will come to you?

username123

truebluesac wrote: »

The a&e's dont get our dispatch info , they are only informed of what we are en route with and ETA after we on the ambulance inform them . Which is not what your post said

No idea why you are being so pedantic (if the dept needs to know, they are told)- have a good day dearie.

Turtwig

truebluesac wrote: »

I administer the same medication through a vein and i havnt killed anyone yet .

With the pen?: confused:
Because that seems really really odd.

Plazaman

Plazaman wrote: »

Prescription needed pharmacy assistant should be brought to task on this. An obvious emergency overrides all bureaucracy.

What does that even mean?

whiskeyman

A tragic chain of events that could, and should, have been avoided.
Hopefully something is put in place to avoid it ever happening to anyone again.

Plazaman

seamus wrote: »

You don't know it was an obvious emergency though.

I'm assuming if there is a young girl standing in front of you with her mother and she is in distress and having trouble breathing then that would be an emergency. Having said that I wasn't there so I don't know and my speculation isn't going to bring the poor girl back.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's an absolute tragedy one way or the other, the first reaction is to be so angry at the pharmacist but we don't know the full details yet and I'm sure the poor staff member is suffering today as well as the family. RIP

Yeah certainly it was my reaction but as we don't know, no use in spouting a load of coulda shoulda woulda's. Maybe the investigation might turn up something that will lead to a change that will ensure no one else has to suffer a tragedy such as this.

emmabrighton

Ms Sloan appealed "to parents of children with nut allergies to make sure their child always carry an epipen with them. She said: "I took down the Christmas tree this morning. I'll never celebrate Christmas again."

Oh that made me well up the poor mother.

For the rest of us, a timely reminder that you can ring 112 anywhere in europe just like ringing 999 and you will get through to the emergency services.

For more info

username123

username123 wrote: »

Depends on the nature of your emergency and your proximity to the hospital of course, but generally speaking, if the nature of the emergency is life or death situation the ambulance will at least make efforts to get there quickly. The important thing to remember is that taxi men cannot give possibly life saving treatment in the taxi - paramedics can in the ambulance.

In saying that, I have never had to call 999 with a life or death situation where time is a factor (and I hope I never do).

If the ambulance can find its way, if one is available, and all the rest.
Again, from experience, I'd rather a trained monkey than a paramedic in a lot of circumstances, might at least go out with a smile on your face.

Aestivalis wrote: »

I strongly disagree. Time is everything, and why drag a patient to an unsuspecting A&E when a mobile A&E will come to you?

Dispatching, location at the time, availability, all complications. Taxi right there-straight to hospital, 4 seconds for someone to grab an epipen.

danniemcq

cantdecide wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but is it possible that someone with this type of allergy could have an unfilled prescription for such an emergency? Is there a bracelet that can be carried or some way of showing that a severe allergy is present?

Sympathies to all involved. God, 14 years old...

you could carry a repeat prescription with you and yeah there are bracelets and chains you can get with your details. but the bracelets etc are only really good for when you are unconscious (they are fiddly and can take ages to take off especially of the patient is freaking out)

truebluesac

username123 wrote: »

No idea why you are being so pedantic (if the dept needs to know, they are told)- have a good day dearie.

I fully agree with everything else you said , but there is a misconseption that once you arrive by ambulance you are either top of the cue or theres a full medical team waiting on our arrival with the patient , i am mearly pointing out the fact that this is not the case

Aestivalis

emmabrighton wrote: »

Oh that made me well up the poor mother.

For the rest of us, a timely reminder that you can ring 112 anywhere in europe just like ringing 999 and you will get through to the emergency services.

For more info

Just to reiterate this. Please please please carry your medications with you. Be it epi-pens, asthma inhalers, or whatever. time and time again we're reminded by events like these that the one time you dont have it, you will need it.

And please never hestitate to call an ambulance in an emergency. Not the GP, not the Pharmacist, but 999.

gazzer

I heard a doctor arrived on the scene. Not sure of the protocol but could the doctor not have run into the pharmacy to get the pen thereby overriding the need for a prescription or would it have too late to administer the pen by then?

Then again I cant even begin to imagine how I would react in a situation like that. The poor girl and her family RIP

truebluesac

Deleted User wrote: »

If the ambulance can find its way, if one is available, and all the rest.
Again, from experience, I'd rather a trained monkey than a paramedic in a lot of circumstances, might at least go out with a smile on your face.

I hope you or your family never need an ambulance with that attitude ,

username123

truebluesac wrote: »

I fully agree with everything else you said , but there is a misconseption that once you arrive by ambulance you are either top of the cue or theres a full medical team waiting on our arrival with the patient , i am mearly pointing out the fact that this is not the case

I never said that. Sorry, Im didnt think in an AH thread that it all had to be spelled out in minute detail. I was responding to the poster who thinks a taxi is a better idea than an ambulance and explaining why it is not. Laymans terms - if the dept needs to be ready due to nature of emergency - they will be told. A taxi man clearly cannot do this.

Nothing about ambulances taking you to top of queue or full medical teams standing by when they dont need to.

frecklier

That pharmacy has a doctor's practice upstairs. It's strange they weren't directed up there, could have got the necessary prescription.

martinedwards

Firstly, Deepest sympathy & Condolences to the family.

Loosing a daughter in easily avoidable circumstances is a parents worst nightmare.

as a trained first aider.......

WHY didn't she have her epipen with her?

for those who don't know, its called an epipen because it breaks the epidermis (skin) to administer the adrenaline and its like a pen. seriously, as a teacher I've seen kids writing with pens far bigger than an epipen. if she has room in her handbag for an emergency tampon and her phone then she DEFINITELY has room for an epipen.

my daughter has a pal with serious allergies. at preschool she would always have her teddybear rucksack with her epipen in it. going to birthday parties she would have her lunchbox with her and she'd NEVER touch ANY of the party food. as parents we all accepted this without question.

as to administering an epipen, you literally just thump the end of it into the thigh muscle. (Avoid the thick seam of jeans etc, the needle isn't that long) One thing to watch though is to grip it with your hand in a fist and NOT with your thumb on the end. if you have the epipen the wrong way round you'll get a full dose of adrenalin into your thumb and that can be nasty!

in HUGE letter though (can't be arsed to actually do it!) Don't ever be afraid to administer 1st aid. NO ONE will ever sue you for trying to help, and even if they are so stupid to try, the court will throw it out.

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

In this case the ambulance response time you give wouldn't have mattered, they made it a few steps before she collapsed and died. A taxi from where it happened to the nearest hospital would've taken 10 minutes or less, I've had buses at rush hour do it in 15. The ambulance thing isn't much of a factor in this case though, at face value at least.

Indeed, satay sauce is basically just one step below eating peanut butter. So the severity of her reaction was likely massive. Someone who had accidentally consumed part of a nut would probably have a good deal more time.
Food allergies typically set in relatively slowly (over a matter of an hour or so), obviously depending on the individual and a whole host of other factors.

So they themselves may not have realised the urgency of the sitation, hence why they went to a pharmacy first and didn't go straight to Temple St or the Mater, which are less than ten minutes away.

Dravokivich

gazzer wrote: »

I heard a doctor arrived on the scene. Not sure of the protocol but could the doctor not have run into the pharmacy to get the pen thereby overriding the need for a prescription or would it have too late to administer the pen by then?

Then again I cant even begin to imagine how I would react in a situation like that. The poor girl and her family RIP

According to the article, it was too late at that stage. They just happened to be nearby shortly after the girl collapsed.

Aestivalis

Deleted User wrote: »

If the ambulance can find its way, if one is available, and all the rest.
Again, from experience, I'd rather a trained monkey than a paramedic in a lot of circumstances, might at least go out with a smile on your face.

Dispatching, location at the time, availability, all complications. Taxi right there-straight to hospital, 4 seconds for someone to grab an epipen.

Thats quite insulting. Paramedics are professional practitioners, better equipped to deal with emergencies than anyone else.
Its not the paramedics fault that there is lack of funds for sufficent ambulances and response times.

I think your taxi suggestion would cause more harm than good. We're talking about a person unconscious, unable to move, unable to breath correctly, eventually going into cardiac arrest, and you think putting them in a taxi will benefit them more?

Whatever, its pointless having this conversation. I'm out.

RIP to the poor girl.

danniemcq

seamus wrote: »

You don't know it was an obvious emergency though.

We'd all like to think that we'd spot it straight away, but if the girl didn't look like she was specifically in need of an epipen, then the pharmacist (let's be honest it could have been an 18 year old behind the counter) can't really risk handing out an epi shot lest it make her condition worse.

Gotta call you on this.

If you are having a reaction you know. IF people around you know that you have allergies they too will know. most people on the street will cop that something hporrible has happened.

Its not a case of I'm feeling a bit sick i'll lie down, its a horrible struggle to breath as your throat closes up and your tongue swells, its all the colour draining from your skin nearly instantly, its vomiting and dizzyness and all those horrible things you can think of when someone can't breath.

If you need a shot people will know you need a shot, there is no nah maybe they are just feeling a bit under the weather in a case like this

Aestivalis

Aestivalis wrote: »

Not calling for an ambulance has to be the most naive thing anybody can do during a medical emergency. In dublin city I reckon it would have been there in 10-15 minutes.

I know it's mainly maternity, but surely one from the Rotunda could have been there in less than 5 mins? If not, the Mater is only a little further away.

There's a high chance that someone (either closely or distantly) affected by the incident could be reading all this, so I don't want to say anything too insensitive, but the pharmacy was the wrong place to go. It's understandable that there was a panic and you can't always think of the exact right thing to do in an emergency, but that doesn't suddenly put the responsibilty for a young girl's life in the hands of a pharmacist who has no way to know whether the emergency was genuine or not.